Questions about Clark and Kerry

[CabalBuster]

Would any Clark or Kerry supporters please answer this questions for me? I haven't posted in a while, even though I've been lurking for months now. 1) I have this burning question about Clark having worked as a defense industry lobbyist (sp?) not long ago and thus being considered an "establishment" candidate by Washington. If this is true, this will disqualify him to get my vote. 2)I heard that Kerry is a member of Skulls & Bones and that he and Bush were frat brothers (with Kerry being an oligarch and exceptionally connected to the ruling elite, it would make sense) and it will explain the media's adoration in the past and how the networks seem comfortable with him. I heard this comments on CSPAN, and I don't know whether anyone has actually been able to debunk it. Do any supporters have anything to say about this? I'm making up my mind and I can't shake those misgivings. No intention to inflame anyone, just questions.

[Democrats unite]

1. You seem to pretty much have your mind made up...

IMO. Do what you think is right. Thats all you can do.

[sallyseven]

2. There is a big difference between

Kerry and Clark and the rest of the group running. I think you should examine your criteria again. Would you rather have bush??

[sangha]

3. Yes, Kerry was S&B

but I don't think it was at the same time as when Bush* was. If that is more important than what a lifetime record shows, it's your vote.

[seventhson]

5. Kerry is Still Skull and Bones as are BOTH Bushes

It is a lifetime membership. Shrub was two years behind Bush at Yale, where this exclusive club is located in what is called "The Tomb".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. That's not true. I saw the movie. It can't be true.

[seventhson]

9. heh

it is

[sangha]

10. It couldn't be

The movie's opening credits said "Based on actual events"

[seventhson]

4. I am totally opposed to Clark and Kerry for these reasons

Obviously I am not a supporter but it is true that Clark worked for the Stephens Group and Axciom, a financial and lobbying firm representing military and "homneland security" interests.

Some believe, as I do, that ClaRK LOBBIED for THE iRAQ WAR FOR THESE INTERESTS.

The Stephens group arranged Saudi financing for Dubya's oil interests and also gave $100,000 to Bush in 2001 for his inaugural celebrations.

Kerry's Forbes ancestors were involved in financing the creation of "secret society" the Order of Skull and Bones which requires secrecy and loyalty oaths for life. Kerry refuses to discuss this membership he currently shares with Both George HW Bush and Shrubya.

For more on Kerry and Skull and Bones this is a good recent article:

http://www.guerrillanews.com/counter_intelligence/doc808.html

[wyldwolf]

7. Conspiratorial rubbish

Some believe, as I do, that ClaRK LOBBIED for THE iRAQ WAR FOR THESE INTERESTS.

Proof?

The Stephens group arranged Saudi financing for Dubya's oil interests and also gave $100,000 to Bush in 2001 for his inaugural celebrations.

Clark's Association With The Stephens Group

Much has been posted here about the links and associations of Clark to The Club for Growth.

For the record, please note that this is an incorrect association and is untrue:

Stephens Group, Inc was run by Jackson T. Stephens, Sr. from 1956 to 1986. Jackson T. Stephens Sr. supported the Clinton campaign.

Jackson T. Stephens Sr's son, Warren A. Stephens has run the firm since 1986.

General Clark worked for Warren Stephens.

There is another son called Jackson T. Stephens, Jr. You will not find Jackson T Stephens Jr listed within the Stephens Group, Inc. management.
Please check to verify: http://www.stephens.com/stephens/leadership/
-------------------------------------
TO RECAP AS TO AVOID FUTURE CONFUSION.......PLEASE BOOKMARK THIS THREAD FOR REFERENCE NEXT TIME ANOTHER CLARK ATTACK IS UPON US.

ONCE AGAIN
Clark worked for a company who's founder Jackson T. Stephens Sr. supported Clinton.

This man had two sons (maybe more)......

Clark worked for the GOOD SON, Warren Stephens.

The BAD SON, Jackson T. Stephens Jr. belongs for the "Club for Growth" but is not listed as working for The Stephens Group, Inc.

So there may be 6 degrees of separation.....but Clark did not work for a company that supported Club for Growth.....

[seventhson]

12. Man....

I went to the website and found the following: this is a private company privately owned by the Stephens family.

So WHAT if Jack Jr. is not an EMPLOYEE. He is an OWNER or has a financial interest in the company. Because the names of the owners are PRIVATE, however - the info is not available on that link.

Jackson Stephens has been responsible for the anti Dean ads as a member of Club for Growth (the volvo-driving, body piercing Vermonters ad)

I suggest people go to the Club for Gropwth website and find out about the FAMILY that employed Clark at the Stephens Group.

By the way, thanks for asking this. I googled the Jackson Stephens thing and it led me to MY post (among many others) on Club for Growth on the official Dean Blog for America!!!

Funny - though - it was listed as a post by Hawkeye X. But I don't mind.

Funny

Serious point - though. Clark worked for the Stephens group. Jackson Jr. is a member of the family which owns and controls it.


We have MUCH to learn about the Stephens Group and their influence on our government from Bush to Clinton to Clark and the ties to BCCI, Axciom, Jet Blue and the Military Insutrial Lobbying Intelligence matrix.

[KC21304]

17. " Some believe, as I do." Now how is that for rebuttal ?

That is the kind of nonsense we Kerry people have heard for a year and a half from "some" of the people here. We see this same letter from this former "friend" of Kerry's who feels so betrayed.

I feel so sorry for "some" of these people because now they have to do double duty, trying to smear Kerry and Clark at the same time. Well have at it !

Kerry/Clark/04


Good luck Wyldwolf trying to get through to some.

[wyldwolf]

19. It really becomes more of a game

...not trying to convince them but rather I'm showing the more unbiased readers how so many conspiracy theories are full of so many holes.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

11. Yes Kerry is S&B

And on a secret mission to destroy the world which can be seen in his efforts to stop the Vietnam War, participate in the first Earth Day, stop and expose Reagan's illegal central american war, stop acid rain from destroying our environment, stop big oil from drilling in the arctic and along our coastlines, stop U.S. weapons from being sold all over the world, stop nuclear buster bunker bombs, etc., etc., etc., etc.,

[seventhson]

13. William Sloan Coffin was S+B too

It is called playing both ends against the middle and it is as old as Machiavelli . Actually much older.

Pretend to be the opponent to the crown to serve the oligarchy's interests.

[KC21304]

14. Where have you been ? I've been waiting. Haven't read this

Bird Seed for a few weeks. More Bull and Scones for everyone .

[seventhson]

15. A Rebuttal on Kerry and his record

this is from one of his former supporters, a Vietnam Veteran, one of my heroes, Brian Willson - a real peace activist IMHO.

http://www.counterpunch.org/willson1015.html

Excerpt:

Your critics had suspected that your activities, both in the war, and in years following, were prompted, at least in part, to an intense political ambition, even as you addressed your Yale law school graduating class with an anti-Vietnam War speech shortly prior to enlisting in the U.S. Navy. Your career in the Senate has revealed your all consuming ambition, but that is quite typical of politicians.

The first hint of a bit of disconnect in your style was when during your first Senate campaign you denied returning your war medals, with a thousand other veterans, in protest of the war during Dewey Canyon III. That was a bit of a shock, since for most veterans who returned their medals in that emotional ceremony on Friday, April 23, 1971, it was a very proud and healing moment. Your 1984 campaign response: You had returned the medals of a WWII acquaintance at his direction. All those 13 years everyone thought you had had the courage and leadership to return medals that to veterans who returned them represented medals of dishonor drenched in the blood of innocent Vietnamese who did not deserve to die for a lie, any more than our fellow US Americans. I guess you knew then that you were to be running for office.

The second hint occurred at the celebration party you organized for us "doghunters" at your friend John Martilla's Beacon Hill house in Boston in late June 1985, 6 months into your term as a junior Senator. In the wee hours of the morning, you made two comments that troubled me: (1) you stressed your initials as "JFK" that would help you one day in your quest for the White House, and (2) that after War Department briefings (and perhaps CIA as well) about the need for funding and training contra terrorists in Afghanistan and Nicaragua you had a new appreciation for their importance in furthering U.S. policies. That did not mean that you necesaarily voted for Contra aid but that once in power, information becomes part of an elite circle preempting genuine democracy. I had driven in from Greenfield for that celebration party, and after those remarks I immediately left the party and drove the two hours home. I never forgot it, obviously.


...

In the life of being a Senator, John, I'm afraid that your career again proves that power corrupts (and blinds), and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Of course you have many friends in the same camp. With your vote for essentially agreeing with the selected resident of the White House's request for incredible authority in advance to wage wars against whomever he wants, you have contributed to finalizing the last of the world's empires, and the likely consequent doom of international law, peaceful existence, and hope for the future possibilities of Homo sapiens. Of course, it also means that searching for the motivations of other people's rage and desperate acts of revenge will be overlooked, dooming us to far more threats and instability then if we had seriously pursued a single-standard in the application of international law equally with all nations in the first place. We are too much of a bully to do that, and have stated over and over again that the American Way Of Life is not negotiable. Can you understand that this means species suicide?

[fernwoods]

20. Great point about creating an image that isn't the real Kerry!

That was interesting about Kerry giving the impression he was returning his metals when they were actually someone else's. Some people try to create an image to get votes that is not how they really feel. You can pretend to be against the war and then suddenly plan wars after you are elected. Kerry's vote for the Iraq war resolution shows how he really feels about the war. Those who who were REALLY against a war with no legitimate purpose voted against the war. This is why I will vote for Kucinich. He actually wants peace and a Department of Peace to plan peace to balance the Department of Defense which is a nice name for department of War.

[seventhson]

27. This is precisely the problem IMHO with both Clark and Kerry.

Their actions speak way louder than their campaigning words.

Is it just politics and is it all or mostly lies?

Sometimes it seems that way to me (almost all the time with these two)

I WISH Kerry would "OUT" his skull and bones brethren and disown the organization. THAT would show principle.

I WISH Clark would just come out and SAY he worked for companies which were spying on us as he earned millions as a lobbyist.

I am not sure I would trust them then either. But at least if they faced their own worst elements (from my progressive dem perspective) and addressed them with some indication of remorse and contrition -- THEN I could possibly believe them.

As it stands now there is NO way they can be trusted at ALL in my book.

There are MANY reasons not to trust either of them IMHO. But the medals thing is a CLEAR indication of his character -- especially when his own colleagues thought he had joined them in that courageous though symbolic gesture of renouning the medals they had won in what they believed was an immoral war.

It makes you wonder what Kerry REALLY believed and wonder WHY he kept the medals when he clearly COULD have tossed them.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Go here

and read "On The Issues" if you want to know more about Clark.

http://www.americansforclark.com/

[seventhson]

18. Or, as in my case

let's NOT go there.

I do not trust Clark at all - no matter what he says - he is too close to the right wing lobbyists IMHO

[fernwoods]

21. If you want to know more about these questions..........

A Major problem with S&B is they pledge their allegiance to this group and their loyalty to the group comes before their country, the law, or morality. I want a president whose first concern is for all the people of the country not a secret group of about 800 living members.
Before joining this group, I heard about Kerry being a member of Skull & Bones and did a goggle search on"Kerry and Skull and Bones." Just in case anyone doesn't know how to do a search, just go to http://www.google.com/ and write these words in the spacer and click. I would send the individual links, but the secrets they tell about this secret society may not be considered fit for this discussion group. The link mentioned in another post was interesting but in order to get a book published without loosing her life, I think the author could only touch on the secrets and not tell the worst. I suspect even the links found in a search don't know the worst. Even the supporters of Kerry should check out some of these links. You need to be informed about what others believe and consider the possibility even if in the end you choose not to believe it.
This is why I support Kucinich who accepts no corporate funding, so he has little media coverage. Consequently, he will work for the people, the constitution, and what is morally right and not for a secret society.

[curse10]

22. skulls and bones! skulls and bones! skulls and bones!

I thought this silly issue had been laid to rest. :eyes:

[funky_bug]

28. as long as a certain candidate

feels threatened, rest assured that issue will never die... if it's all they've got, it's all they've got.

[Jerseycoa]

23. Here, make of it what you will

Post-Military Career

He retired in June 2000; announced 9/17/2003

Author: Waging Modern War: Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Future of Combat (2001)

Stephens Group Inc., director of merchant banking, 3/2001-2/2003

Axciom (Information Processing) - 12/2001-10/8/03

Registered Consultant/Lobbyist - 1/2/2002-5/6/2002

Entrust (Internet Security) - 1/2002-10/8/03

Author: Waging Modern War: Iraq, Terrorism and the American Empire (2003)

Leadership for America (non-profit) (2003)

CNN, Senior Military Analyst, 2/2003-6/2003

Wesley K. Clark & Associates, 3/2003-

WaveCrest Laboratories, Chairman (alternative energy engine)- 4/2003-10/8/2003


Kerry's website has a note:

Clark Colleague at Acxiom Corp, where he was a lobbyist for several years.

The only lobbying registration I found online was for 1/2/2002-5/6/2002:

(/1 and /2 seem to be duplicates)

http://sopr.senate.gov/cgi-win/opr_gifviewer.exe?/2002/01/000/460/000460254|1

http://sopr.senate.gov/cgi-win/opr_gifviewer.exe?/2002/01/000/460/000460254|2

http://sopr.senate.gov/cgi-win/opr_gifviewer.exe?/2002/01/000/555/000555220|3


He also sat on various boards, including Messer-Griesheim,
North American Van Lines - (Sirva), and Time Domain Inc.

[tishaLA]

24. Don't forget today's important issues:

Kerry has lost his voice and is therefore unelectable.

Clark has a modified comb-over and wears NE Patriots sweaters to pander to NH voters.

[maddezmom]

25. LOL

OMG, what is a modified comb over? That really gave me a chuckle. :)

[seventhson]

26. Does it cover up his shiny...

Republican bald spot?

(Just funnin'. Please don't spank me)