Secession

[rogerashton]

All my life I have favored broader unity, not disunity, and so have not considered dissolution of the American union as anything worth considering. However, this election has caused me to reconsider. I am still for democratic world government as the ultimate goal. However, America as it is will never enter into a world community, both because doing so would give up power, and the powerful never give up power willingly, and because a developing world community could not welcome a power that would dominate it. America as it is is too big a lump for a world community to chew. Moreover, as long as we are an imperial power, we will never have a rational politics. It is only post-empire that the European countries have moved away from fascism and jingoism to progressivism and community: It would be unreasonable "American exceptionalism" to suppose that we will be otherwise. But a country as big as we are is always subject to the imperial temptation. These considerations lead me to believe that there is more hope in the dissolution of the American union into three to a dozen smaller countries that would be more liveable neighbors in the world. To be sure, we have something to gain by secession. Discussions of the possibility of California seceding have pointed out that California would be better off without the burden of paying taxes to support all those subsidies and port-barrel military operations in the red states. California is not unique.

Let us consider the implications of the joint secession of the northeastern states from the Potomac northward, and their reconstitution as a new nation. We may call it the Atlantic Federation, or Atlantica for short. The Atlantica I envision would be a federation of twelve states:

1 Connecticut
2 Delaware
3 District of Columbia
4 Maine
5 Maryland
6 Massachusetts
7 New Hampshire
8 New Jersey
9 New York
10 Pennsylvania
11 Rhode Island
12 Vermont

Atlantica would have a population just under 60 million. That is 22nd in the world, between France and Italy, and roughly double that of California or Canada. Atlantica would have a gross domestic product of about two and one quarter trillion dollars, making it the fourth largest in the world, after Japan, the rump "United States" (henceforward "Rump States") and Germany. Assuming California were to secede also, California would then be seventh, after (in addition) France and the United Kingdom, and the Rump States would be second after Japan. Atlantica would have a GDP per capita in the neighborhood of $40,000, making it second in the world to Luxembourg. California would be close behind, though. These data are for 2000 and use constant dollars of 1996 purchasing power, mostly from the Census Bureau. In those terms, Atlantica beat out California by a light lunch: the difference was 13.50 per head.

In short, Atlantica would be a nation to reckon with, and on a par with the bigger European nations.

I won't say much more now about how and what to do, but just this: I would hope to see a new Atlantic Federation approach the European Community for membership, with a commitment to join the Euro. That would, of course, change the European community fundamentally – into, in fact, something of an emerging world community – and Europeans might not welcome that at first. Looser association satisfactory to our European friends should be sought, if necessary, as a preliminary step. On the other side, Atlantica should seek close association and alliance, but not political union, with California and any other breakaways from the rump states. The idea is to break North America into lumps digestible to a world community. Political reunion of Atlantica with other breakaways should wait until the world community can form. Meanwhile, association on the European Community model should be considered, if direct accession to the Community is not possible. Canada, in particular, may not welcome the embrace of a new Atlantic nation with double her population; but with California, and perhaps some other breakaways, as counterweights, might be confortable in a closer North American association as a counterweight to the Rump States.

Obviously, this leaves many important points untouched. However, I suggest there is enough here to suggest the idea ought to be seriously considered.

[MAlibdem]

1. Seriously consider? No...

But if we must play this game, I would suggest your Atlantica and Cali, WA, and OR all join Canada. Now that would be one hell of a liberal country

[rogerashton]

2. You miss the point,

which is to divide the continent into chunks digestible into a world community, not to regroup a (BIG) liberal country.

[psunitlions1]

6. You need to keep the big country in mind

from a resource standpoint your little countries would flounder they need to be all together to compete

the economic structure from where you base your numbers is based on the United states as a whole cali gets money from texas and vise versa they in effect trade with each other

you destroy that your economic numbers are now meaningless.....besides you have to get buy in...many reds are in blue states what do you do kick em out

logistically this is a nightmare


good topic but not neede this second

slowly build your thoughts

we need a think tank nuff said

[Robert Oak]

3. gotta join Canada

Last time anybody tried this it was civil war.

[rogerashton]

4. Good point,

but that comes under strategy and tactics. I would call for a NONVIOLENT revolutionary strategy to separate the country.

1) The AF would renounce military force UNTIL its independence would be recognized by the Rump States.

2) However, at an appropriate time, total noncooperation with the occupying power would be declared. (Read Gene Sharp, Nonviolent Power, before you sneer.)

3) Until then, the population of the AF would participate, under protest, in the political process of the Rump States.

Again, more details would have to be worked out, of course, but they can be. The objective is to put the Rump States in the position that, in order to repress secession, they would have to commit to it their own military to administer the AF as occupied territory -- tying down troops that could otherwise be used to pursue the RS' imperialistic plans. At that point saying "go in peace" becomes the RS' least evil response, from their own point of view. By the way, that very nearly happened in 1861. They keep saying they don't want us -- "cut New York off and let it drift out to sea, Barry Goldwater used to say -- so let us take 'em at their word.

By the way, the pursuit of Al Qaeda is not imperialistic and I would have the AF pledge to support that effort in Afghanistan, at such time as the AF might have a military force with which to do it.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

5. Of course you are right

But people love their flag and the shape of their map. I started talking about this in 2000 and everyone said I was crazy, especially Democrats. They thought I was some RW militia guy. Now there's a thread on secession every fifteen minutes. It won't happen without a fight. You'll find DUers even who will attack you irrationally over this.

For me, the choice is clear: either California or I get out of the country!

[Robert Oak]

7. do increase in states rights help?

I would imagine we'd all be shut down and in jail as political prisoners
real fast.

The neocons need these bodies for war and more importantly these tax dollars to keep their "new world order" going.

but, I feel if these states voted to join Canada, or even the EU they should be allowed to do so.

The economic factors you point out to are real and clearly the "cultural divide" isn't going to be reached for many of these issues are untenable, there is no "compromise" possible.

[psunitlions1]

16. Hockey anyone???

!

[Morning Dew]

8. I can hear Shrub now -

"We have always been at war with Atlantica."

[catbert836]

9. Another Nation to add

Pacific Federation or Pacifica
1) California
2) Oregon
3) Washington
4) Hawaii

[Cobalt Violet]

10. I think that once the repukes get the super Majority they are after...

in 2006 the idea of a secession will become more appealing to those who think it is and extreme thing.


I would love it.

[prodigal_green]

11. In other words, 12 of the original 13 colonies

would do what they did 228 years ago: revolt based on the notion of no taxation without representation. Atlantica is donor to the Rump States. They would not let us go easily because they need our cash and our brainpower. There is a reason that Montana isn't the center of commerce or technology (no offense to Montanan DUers, who are surely the exception).

I am a strong advocate of an amicable divorce. Frankly, the whole idea of a nation-state is a little old-fashioned, as Al Qaeda has shown us. Political organizations are formed more by philosophical/cultural commonalities than by geography these days.

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Trouble is, we have to ask Congress for permission. Bet they

won't say yes. Still, let's write all of our reps and demand to secede!

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Radio-Active]

13. maybe not!

they would have an even stronger chokehold on Electoral votes in this country.

[psunitlions1]

14. dont write yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it has to be done slowly and carefully

[Walt Starr]

15. This nation has been there, done that.

It didn't work a century and a half ago. It won't work now.

I am not a traitor and will not entertain any notion of secession. This is not a reb vs. blue nation. This nation is set to varying degrees of purple.

[catbert836]

17. Some suggestions

1) Start a website
2) Start a email list
3) Start a petition. File in Congress and the state legislatures when it has 20,000 signatures

Any more?

[Moderator]

18. Locking.....

This is flamebait.


DU Moderator

[KingChicken]

19. I like the general idea, i'm for it, but it comes with huge risks

This would be the most politically ambitious move since the last Civil War. A lot of things need to be accounted for when considering this proposal, however I feel that a decisive move needs to be made to counter this ideological separation.