What the hell is wrong with some of you people

[VelmaD]

Where the FUCK do some of you get off telling gay and female DUers that we caused the loss of this election? And where the FUCK do you get off telling us that the best possible strategy is to let the repubs have their way and take our rights from us? It's really FUCKING easy for you to say that since YOU won't be the one suffering.

If you won't stand up for equal rights for EVERYONE then you need to seriously consider getting the HELL out of my party. We have given ground and given ground and given ground and watched our party leadership sell us out time and again and THIS FAR NO FURTHER.

But thanks for playing. It's always good when people let us know they really aren't on our side.

[Shakespeare]

1. Thank you, Velma. Well said.

We're apparently responsible for the downfall of western civilization, just like the republicans said would happen. :eyes:

I'm a bit sick of the sit-down-and-shut-up business myself. Bush will fuck us either way, which is the point some posters seem to be missing.

[gator_in_Ontario]

2. You GO girl!

Right on!

[bicentennial_baby]

3. Thank you thank you thank you

This bi female thanks you very much for saying what I've been thinking so eloquently.

[manic expression]

4. Who said that?

When? Where?
You're DEFINITELY right if people said those things.

[VelmaD]

6. Go read Walt Starr's little flame-fest or...

any of the threads about "moral values". :eyes:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foo_bar]

75. agreed

"I think Kerry is a vile, disgusting, opportunistic, political hack"
- WS

[Ladyhawk]

97. Not good.

I'm angry with him for conceding early, but he isn't a vile, disgusting, opportunistic political hack. If he would jump back into it (flip-flop), I guess I'd follow him again. :)

[foo_bar]

120. no that was March

"I'll be taking November 2nd off as a vacation day in order to recover from the wretched projectile vomiting I will be engaged in after casting that nasty ballot, but I'll still be voting for the gold-digging, botox-injecting, opportunistic hack"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x486283#486565

[MrTriumph]

109. Disagree- Rep's can't always make wedge issues

Gay marriage is a gem for the Rep's. Probably the best since choice/abortion.

And the way the proponents stormed the marriage license offices and performed huge public marriages, the issue was inflamed by the very proponents of it.

ELEVEN ballot measured to restrict gay marriage won handily last Nov. 2. And you can bet you will see the same on some state ballots in 2006 and 2008.

[transeo]

5. Thank you!

:toast:

[unfrigginreal]

7. Who are you talking about?

Do you have a link for a DUer telling you that gay and female DUers caused the loss of the election? A link for DUers telling you to let the repubs take your rights from you? Or are you just bitching because some DUers think there might be a different way to achieve the same things that you want to achieve?

[VelmaD]

11. Have you been reading the "moral values" threads...

today. Plenty of blaming going on there.

[buddhamama]

8. Agreed.

with one exception; those who would give in to the Right-Wingers will suffer. Equality is the precipice on which our party stands. Go the way of the Republican party and no one will be safe from their religious extremism, bigotry and hatred.

[tjdee]

9. This is the DUMBEST issue EVER.

People who are afraid/disdainful of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals should be ashamed of themselves. They are actually in favor of restricting rights in a so called democracy.

The fact that sexual orientation is even an ISSUE just shows how troubled many Americans are. I hate talking about this because it should SO not be an issue at all when we're dealing with terrorists, unemployment, poor health insurance, etc.

[DrWeird]

10. Agreed.

Fucking closet freepers.

[robbedvoter]

12. Yesss! Buying the media script leads to idiotic statements

Again, slowly: we won, they stole it. End of post mortem

[Cha]

36. Fucking Sucpicious,

all right!

[bear425]

83. Great graphic - did you do it?

Are you emailing it to Kerry campaign? Thanks.

[Q3JR4]

101. Where did the poll information come from? Who made the graph? n/t

[Vickers]

13. Hey, don't blame me...I like all you kweers

:loveya::hug::loveya::hug::loveya:

[VelmaD]

20. not a kweer personally

Just an angry woman who happens to also be friends with a lot of gay people and who still believes that equality for ALL should be a bedrock unchangable core Democratic party value.

[michigandem2]

15. what?

Look I feel like the repubs are discriminatory...I dont' get it...I agree with you 100%

we had that stupid prop here in MI...and it passed...why??? I don't know..why do we get to tell someone how to live? what if WE (heterosexuals) become a minority and then there is a prop that heteros can't get married?? I mean..its THAT stupid to me...

I could care less who wants to marry who...let them live their lives..they are people...and they deserve support from us becuae they won't get it elsewhere...its disgusting how this country is turning on our own people based on who they want to be with??? gimme a break...

[davepc]

16. Way to miss the entire point.

gays and women didn't cost us the election, issues that never should of been issues cost us the election.

10 million people who we've abandoned for over a decade as being dumb stupid redneck hicks cost us the election.

An inability to compromise on things like parental consent and partial birth cost us the elections.

The argument for partial birth abortion was that if they won that fight the next fight was for Roe and we'd lose that too.

Well we fought for partial birth, where did it get us?

25 years of Republican SCOTUS. All the advancements from the 60's and 70's are going to DIE right in front of our eyes because we wouldn't give an inch. so now we lost a mile. Its going to be a LONG uphill climb to get that back.

Its not womens fault, or gays fault, its a rigid EVERYTHING OR NOTHING mentality, and an inability to compromise with the reasonable center.

We wrote them off, they said FUCK YOU, and voted with the bad guys. Now we reap the "rewards" of that.

[VelmaD]

18. bullshit right wing talking points

The right-wing maniacs pushing partial birth abortion and anti-gay marriage amendments are the ones who forced this issue...NOT women and gays.

[davepc]

29. reality isint a talking point. Reality is Cheif Justice Anthony Scalia

[VelmaD]

32. Reality is a stolen election and a bunch of turncoat...

"liberal" men who want to sell me out.

[davepc]

42. you don't get it

WE LOST ABORTION.

We LOST IT Tuesday.

Now we need to rebuild the party to TAKE IT BACK.

More people then who don't agree with us, but its going to take work reaching them again.

Joust your windmills. It wont get our issues back that we LOST.

[VelmaD]

54. It's always so amusing...

to have a man tell me I "don't get it" when it comes to an issue of women's rights. :eyes:

[davepc]

67. if you get it then get on board to take it back, not accuse me of blaming

or accusing me of spouting right wing talking points.

The inability of the choice movement to compromise on partial birth and parental consent cost us the whole ballgame.

we're at day one. January 21, 1973. 30 years of progress and advancement is GONE.

We need to retool, rearm, and fight back, but to WIN we need numbers, we need people. We need senators, we need congressmen (congresswoman too!), we need governors, we need judges, we need red states to do it.

The VAST majority of people in this nation will tolerate abortion. They wont like it, but they'll tolerate it being available.

But since we had to push the most radical parts, partial birth for example, a small minority has convinced the people who tolerate it that we're a bunch of left wing wacko baby killers. Then they don't tolerate, they oppose.

30 years of progress. GONE.

I want the House back, I want the Senate back, I want the Presidency back. And we're NOT going to do it with California, New York, and nobody else.

We WILL do it with Kentucky, Georgia, Lousiana, Montana, Nevada helping out too.

[Xipe Totec]

72. Blame LBJ, while you're at it

If it wasn't for his piggish insistence on Civil Rights the Confederate States would still be solidly Democratic.

That's what turned them against the Democratic party. Let's not forget that.

/sarcasm off

[davepc]

73. They were solidly democratic in 1976. And we won enough to win in 92/96

nice straw man.

[Ripley]

76. There is no such medical procedure as "partial birth abortion."

You're outa here chump.

[davepc]

86. tell that to people south of the Mason Dixon line and to the east of Cali.

Oh wait, we did, and they ignored us, and voted for people who said there is and they wanted to stop it.

[Ripley]

90. Yeah, let's let women die at the expense of fetuses and babies.

Because they're just god damned vessels.

And hey, because the repukes love war too...I'm gonna go volunteer tomorrow!

Talk about your sell outs.

[Xipe Totec]

79. And all it took was unmasking a corrupt Republican President

We can do that again. It should be easier this time. Nixon was smart. Chimpie should be a pushover. Gitmo and Abu Grahib are still out there waiting to bite him in the ass. Iraq is not going away. A two trillion dollar deficit is not going away. It was the "Security Moms" that cost us the election, not gays, not abortion. Every dead soldier is another nail in the coffin of the Republican party. Let's not self-destruct while we wait for them to implode into the cesspool they have built for themselves.

[VelmaD]

87. We are not the ones who refuse to compromise on abortion...

that would be the right-wing fundy nuts who want to pass laws outlawing abortion even for cases of rape, incest and where the mother's life is in jeopardy.

[MsTryska]

77. How about if i tell you.

i'm female, i'm straight, i'm pro-choice, rabidly, and technically a one issue voter.



we LOST on tuesday. Now we've got to figure out how to get it all back.

[Ripley]

88. How about you and davepc explain to me why...

A medical procedure that is rarely, rarely ever used and is only used when something has gone horribly wrong is your business. The sensationalistic words "partial-birth abortion" and the description of it doesn't explain WHY that would ever be done. I watched a woman who was the mother of 2 testify before Congress on this. She was very excited about having her 3rd child...room ready, etc. She was horrified when she began ill and at the doctor's found out something was wrong and it was killing her. Don't recall if it was her heart or internal bleeding. She did not want to lose that baby. The doctor performed the late term abortion to saver the mother's life.

What in the hell is wrong with you people who think that unconscious baby's life should have been saved at the cost of the mother?

That is called MISOGYNY.

[MsTryska]

94. Actually...i keep telling people to call it what it is....

Late-term abortion.


and i don't think we lost because we opposed the ban.


I believe we lost, because we let them change the name and then tell america we're about cracking baby's skulls open.




What's at issue is here isn't the issues we've always been behind. I doubt anyone is saying that, or if they are they might as well be republicans.



What we're saying is change the dialogue. We've lost the battle for now. I doubt Roe V Wade willr eally get overturned, but we put it on the back burner. right now we have to focus on getting a foothold in those red states if we are ever to become a viable option again.



screaming at them about robbing us of our various pet rights ain' thte way to go about doing it.


Doesn't mean we don't support those rights - we just shift the focus to woo them with stuff they should be wooed by. If we get them thinking about bread and butter issues, and frame the "moral issues" in a way that's acceptable ( hint - it's not by screaming about people invading your uterus) we have a better chance of going forth and multiplying....when we're back in a position of power, we move forward some more.


Take a page form the fundie playbook. they started with prayer in schools and ten commandments as their issues. those are gonna be the least of our problems now.

[MsTryska]

74. I agree. nt

nt

[Mizmoon]

17. Here's reality

The Repubs are already going to do what they will with our abortion rights and with gay marriage rights. We fought hard for decades. Now they will appoint their judges and do what it is they want.

I think it's true that we need to drop them both as national issues.
That does mean we abandon the causes.

We support them by having these sorts of issues decided on the state level. We're going to have to face that all we can get for gays right now are state-by-state civil unions in only a few places.

The fact of the matter is that abortion services have already been seriously restricted in the red states. It will always remain fairly unrestricted in the blue states, even when they over turn Roe v. Wade (and they will, no doubt).

Of course, last time we tried to solve serious cultural issues by going to the state level was ... right before the Civil War.

Someone else on DU posted a map showing slave states and free states (and territories) before the last Civil War. It matched the red/blue pattern of the Bush/Kerry voting map exactly.

I'm not saying there will be a Civil War soon. What I am saying is that if something doesn't change, there may be one in a few decades.

[Xipe Totec]

19. Ok, So tell me what the Democratic party should stand for

And please think carefully before you reply.:think:

[Mizmoon]

21. Do you think abortion and gay rights are all there is?

Do you have any other issues?

[VelmaD]

23. Do you really not get it?

Women's rights (and the right to control our bodies is a fundamental right to women) and gay rights are part of what makes us Democrats...the belief that EVERYONE should have equal rights under the law. This is NOT a complicated concept.

[Mizmoon]

31. I don't think you get it

You can be a martyr, or you can get into a position of power to ensure these rights are enforced.

I'm not saying drop them as issue, just drop them as federal issues. They become state issues.

[DrWeird]

38. "state issues"

You mean like segregation?

[VelmaD]

40. No, I get it.

People are angry and scared and want to blame someone and they're hitting the traditional targets. We're used to it. Guess what, we won't roll over and take it anymore. Cope.

[Mizmoon]

52. I will say it again

We cannot protect gays IF WE'RE NOT IN POWER IN ANY BRANCH AT ALL!

You folks don't get it - they are now in a position to trample you into the groud. We don't want that to happen. No one is there to protect you now on a legislative level. No one.

We have to do something to get back into power and protect the vulnerable. We have to change, cause what we've been doing isn't working.

[SemperEadem]

108. once they're done with the gays, they'll come after the minorities

they had the nerve to challenge only blacks at the polls on Tuesday.. I wonder how many middle aged white males were challenged?

[buddhamama]

41. When State issues run amuck of the Constitution

it must be Challenged not Dropped. It IS a federal issue.
GA is just one example where the voters didn't just define marriage, they also voted in the affirmative to disallow Domestic Partner status to Gays.



edited spelling

[buddhamama]

26. The Main issue is one of Equality.

You're either for it or you're not.

[Xipe Totec]

27. Tell me what else is there to unite us?

What other minority do we want to throw to the wolves in order to "win an election"?

Blacks?
Jews?
Hispanics?
Latinos?
Muslims?

What's your plan for a winning coalition?

[robbedvoter]

35. Opposition to fascism, prejudice, warmongering.....

Think it may work?

[VelmaD]

45. Uh...oposition to prejudice...

means standing up for women's and gay's rights last time I checked.

[Mizmoon]

55. We can't do that now, can we

Because we're not in office.

Maybe we need to change thing so we can get in office again?

[Mizmoon]

43. I said handle them on a state level

but you'd prefer to think I'm some kind of bigot.

We can't do a damn thing for anyone if WE'RE NOT IN OFFICE!

[Xipe Totec]

58. Please, don't be angry

I don't think you're a bigot. I just want to examine your position in more detail. My personal opinion is that you can't separate freedom of choice and gay's rights from civil rights. I don't think the position can be defended consistently.

But I am willing to listen. I am open to a logical sequence of internally consistent propositions.

[smirkymonkey]

81. It falls under the heading "Civil Rights" and they should not be

denied to ANYBODY!!

[robbedvoter]

34. uh, democracy, civil rights, environment, peace, justice - stuff like that

[Xipe Totec]

47. Noble thoughts. Please elaborate

In particular, please explain how we advance democracy, civil rights, peace, and justice by abandoning gay's rights and freedom of choice as issues in the democratic agenda?

I just don't get it. :shrug:

[Mizmoon]

59. No one's talking about abandoning gay rights

we're talking about making gay marriage a state issue.

Even kansas isn't ready to lock people up for being gay. If that day ever came, you could count on us to defend you tooth and nail.

[Xipe Totec]

64. I'm not gay, I'm a Democrat

This is a civil rights issue for me. I support gays through enlightened self-interest. I am Mexican. My father was a truck driver in Texas when gas stations had signs that said "No dogs or Mexicans allowed" I know what it's like to be discriminated. No minority, no mater how small, should be sacrificed at the altar of power.


We cannot afford to have our civil liberties trampled upon.

We cannot tolerate a social environment where an individual or group of people can be deprived of their civil liberties because of how they may look, where we may think they come from or because of their religious confession.

The German church leader Martin Niemoller put this succinctly, when he recalled:

When they came for the communists, I said nothing because I was not a communist.

When they came for the Jews, I said nothing. I was not a Jew.

When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing. I was a Protestant.

When they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up for me.

http://www.repealnow.com/savcc.htm

[MrTriumph]

107. "States Rights" is a tough sell

The problem with the states rights argument is this: it is hard to sell. And it isn't hard to sell on the merits as much as it is a trust issue. When the opposition is in panic mode, they aren't prone to listen to the specifics.

And the opposition makes a fairly good argument that if the marriage is recognize in one state it will be hard not to recognize it in another.

If the states rights pro-gay marriage argument is to be made, it will need to be re-framed.

[Maiden England]

22. Im with you Velma

we are the party of civil liberties and equal rights. Discrimination has no place here.

[sangh0]

24. It's not just gays

We've seen the same attitude expressed towards the poor, towards soldiers, towards southerners, towards the religious, and any group that has members that disagree with the purists.

[elsiesummers]

25. Thank-you. Dems must stand up for civil rights.

If Democrats don't stand up for civil rights and civil liberties then they don't stand for anything.

[Julien Sorel]

28. So what exactly did you get from having those initiatives

on the ballot? What positive came from it?

I'm not blaming anyone because blame is for losers. What I'm trying to do is understand what we can do better next time. Because change isn't coming if we don't start winning -- period. I'm a black man who hates the Confederate fucking flag with a red white and blue passion, but you know what? I'll give in on that issue if it means winning. I grew up in a violent neighborhood, and saw people gunned down in front of my eyes as a kid. I've been as pro gun control as anyone you know -- but you know what? If it means winning, fuck gun control to hell. Because we aren't going to see something like the Brady Bill passed again as long as the Republicans control everything, and as long as we cling to every single issue, they are going to use them to beat the shit out of us and keep winning.

So I ask again, what did you get out of having those initiatives on ballots? Did it advance your cause one iota? Do you now, as a gay American, feel your standing is better or worse today than it was last week? Better or worse than it was today or four years ago?

[VelmaD]

30. First of all it wasn't gays who put those initiatives on the ballot...

it was anti-gay right-wing fundamentalist whackjobs who did it as an intentional wedge issue.

Second, why do you assume I am gay? One doesn't have to be gay to believe in equal rights for all.

[Julien Sorel]

51. Your own post:

Where the FUCK do some of you get off telling gay and female DUers that we caused the loss of this election? And where the FUCK do you get off telling us that the best possible strategy is to let the repubs have their way and take our rights from us? It's really FUCKING easy for you to say that since YOU won't be the one suffering.

[VelmaD]

53. anyone who is gay or female...

would fall into that "we". I am female.

[Julien Sorel]

60. Grammar.

us gay and female seemed inclusive.

Still, my point stands.

Exactly who is blaming women, by the way? Blaming gays seems silly enough, but blaming women, considering they comprised more than half our votes, seems downright absurd.

[robbedvoter]

39. Next time we can try having clean elections - no Diebold?

[Kingshakabobo]

63. Read a newspaper or something.

Educate your self before you spout. We didn't put the initiatives on the ballots.

[Julien Sorel]

68. I didn't say you did.

But the gay marriage thing started recently, and the Republicans took it and ran with it. There are a group of people in the Democratic Party who insist the Dems stand firm on the issue -- and it now looks like a burner of political capital.

[Xipe Totec]

104. Hi Billy!

No doubt this is burning political capital, but this is a deal breaker for me.

A Democratic party without a firm and principled stance on civil rights has nothing to offer me. I might as well join the real Republican party in that case.

No thanks.

[inmania]

33. way to go VelmaD!

equal rights for EVERYONE

[LiberalEconomist]

49. Prior to its current manifestation

the Democratic Party stood for the working class. I was basically, the American version of the British Labour Party. It's basic motive was to see that all people are able to make a decent living and are able to fulfil their potiential (starting with the GI bill after WWII). The factional concoction we see today has its origins in the 1960s. Oh and don't ask me for links, go read a fucking history book or two.

[Fovea]

37. THis is what happens when your leaders

encourage you to scapegoat. See Hannah Arendt's 'The Origins of Totalitarianism' for several good examples.

It ends with bonfires and blood, pretty much uniformly.
The government is supposed to prevent mayhem, so when they encourage it, it is a sociopathic field day.

[robbedvoter]

48. Yup. Gays caused 911 too (along with pagans, feminists, atheists)

So, we know you lot and your agenda.

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/agenda.html

[arewenotdemo]

44. We're with you, sister!

:hug:

[radfringe]

46. I'm a Lesbian

and I won't be voting for any candidate that supports Hetrosexual Marriage, nor sham-domestic partnerships between and man and a woman

===========

try that on for size

[AP]

50. Gavin Newsom isn't gay. Nobody is saying gays and lesbians lost the...

...the election.

I think what people are saying is that the way this issue was framed (by a lot of straight people) cost the Democrats the election.

[VelmaD]

56. No, they're telling us we should let the repubs...

take our rights away in the short term for some longer term strategy that may or may not result in us ever getting those righst back in the future. I don't buy it. I don't believe that caving to the repubs is the answer. Notice that it's MY rights they want to give up...not any of theirs.

[AP]

57. I think people are more worried you wont get the rights that you want with

tactics like Newsom's.

[HootieMcBoob]

71. no one is blaming anyone! that's a bogus charge.

and no one is saying that we should let them take away anyones rights. the reason for that is that for all practical purposes our fucking rights have already been taken away! I think what people like WaltStarr are talking about is that we need to reframe the issue. additionally we need to take their issues (outlawing abortion) and rub their fucking faces in it! We need to allow them to sleep in the bed that they have made. When people get a look at the real republican party they might see the monster they've created. Then we, the Democratic Party, become the party of "personal freedom" who will oppose the birth tax and work for good paying jobs and tax cuts for farmers and working men and women. They have used abortion and gay marriage to beat us into irrelevance. Now they will either have to shit or get off the pot. Will they make abortion illegal in Georgia? If they do how many companies will want to move their plants to Georgia? How many people will move out of Georgia in order to escape the fascism? Then the Democratic Party has the issue of Republican opposition to personal freedom has caused the downfall of the southern states. If they don't make abortion illegal then they risk the wrath of the radical Christian fundamentalists. It's an idea, not perfect probably, but WaltStarr is brainstorming and he's thinking longterm. it's something to consider.

[pdx_prog]

61. amen....

[leftofthedial]

62. I'm on your side Velma

I believe unqualifiedly in equal civil liberties, rights and priveleges for ALL.

[itcfish1]

65. Well Let's Blame

Gays, women, blacks, hispanics, asians, short people fat people for losing the election. Gee who do we have left, Stupid White Men in other words the GOP. LOL Diversity is what makes our party great.
:dem:

[Walt Starr]

66. I've not said this

We lost, Velma. If we continue under the existing paradigm, we will lose even more.

Take it as you will, but that is the reality of the situation. Insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.

Reframe the debate and fight another day. Or as Sun Tzu would have it:

"Therefore, the principles of warfare are:

Do not attack an enemy that has the high ground;

do not attack an enemy that has his back to a hill;

do not pursue feigned retreats;

do not attack elite troops;

do not swallow the enemy's bait;

do not thwart an enemy retreating home.

If you surround the enemy, leave an outlet;

do not press an enemy that is cornered.

These are the principles of warfare."

Right now the Republicans have the high ground.

What I am suggesting is we feign retreat and bait the enemy. We lose a few to win overwhelmingly in the long term.

[VelmaD]

92. How about you volunteer to be...

one of the few we lose. People who advocate sacrificing a few to save the many in the long-term never seem to be the ones who have to actually make the sacrifice.

[myrna minx]

69. Velma D I've got your back.

If we allow any one of our brothers and sisters to get stomped on, we ALL get stomped on. I have a dream -that one day who you decide to love will not be an issue. :hug:

[bread_and_roses]

70. Yes, Sister!

If there is one thing that might pull me out of the pit of despair I am in it is rage at someone telling me that I have to sacrifice MY BODY and the bodies of my sisters so someone calling him/herself a Democrat can win an election.

When my daughter or my friend's daughters or my daughter's friends lie bleeding to death from illegal abortions, we are not going to much care that the Mayor calls him/herself a Democrat.

And I stand with my GLBT brothers and sisters: Our bodies, our loves, our lives are not to be sacrificed so there is a "D" behind some politicians name.

[FubarFly]

80. Democrat isn't a name, it's an ideal.

The corrupt Machievellians will never get it.

I'm not a Democrat because I want to win, but because I believe in fairness and equality.

The question when we lose isn't "what do we have to do to win?", but rather "what do we have to do for our values to resonate so that we can win?"

Integrity matters. And as evidenced by some of the replies in this thread, it's in short supply.

kenzee13: this isn't directed at you. I agree with your post.

[smirkymonkey]

78. I am straight, but I completely agree with you!

We're not the ones who are making gay marriage an issue - THEY ARE! AND THEY ARE WRONG!

[TexasSissy]

82. I don't know what posts you're talking about, but everyone is entitled

to his opinion, even if they don't agree with yours. You're entitled to yours, too.

Also, to say that one of the main issues was "gay marriage" is not saying that gays caused the loss. It is saying that that particular issue caused us votes, ACCORDING TO THE OPPOSITION, WHO WON THE ELECTION. We should listen when someone tells us why they didn't vote for us.

A gay friend of mine, actually, said when the Massachusetts stuff was starting up months ago that that was bad news to be dealing with that issue during this election year. He is not against gays, of course. He thought the timing was bad, and I think so, too. I even posted here a couple of times that that issue could've waited until after the election, so as not to rile up the conservative base. Boy, was I flamed. But it wasn't my personal belief about the issue; it was what I thought would be the reaction to the issue. The timing.

Don't know what you mean about an issue involving women. I haven't heard that one.

[sonicx]

85. "I don't know what posts you're talking about, but everyone is entitled

to his opinion, even if they don't agree with yours. You're entitled to yours, too."


thanks, i forgot. :eyes:

[Frangible]

84. Stop blaming other democrats

This isn't helping. No one has said gays lost the election. What people here have said it was it was INTOLERANT BIGOTS who caused the loss of this election.

And they did. And sadly, most of America has that belief. We can either accept reality, or keep having neocons rule every branch of government. It's up to you.

[TexasSissy]

91. Yes. It's important to recognize which issues cost us, but that doesn't

mean that the people involved in those issues cost us.

[Guaranteed]

89. Right on, VelmaD. Aren't you sick of these fucking PUSSIES?

:P

[dolstein]

93. So you believe that the gay marriage issue helped Kerry?

Congratulations. I have a bridge you may be interested in buying. It's in Brooklyn.

I'm not blaming gay people for Kerry's defeat. There are probably 150,000 reasons why Kerry lost the election.

But still . . . the gay marriage issue is a sure political loser for the Democrats, particularly in red states. There's no denying that. Nor is it unfair to question whether now was the right time for gay rights groups to be litigating this issue.

[VelmaD]

98. A very old very tired attitude

The people in power in the liberal establishment have ALWAYS told oppressed inorites to wait...now is not a good time...well FUCK THAT. Women and blacks and gays never got anything by sitting quietly and waiting. If we sit and wait til the "right time" we'll be waiting forever.

[Frangible]

103. Look

I agree with you entirely on gay rights. I voted against the gay marriage ban here in my piddly red state, and was one of the few to do so. I have always supported equality for gays and gay marriage.

But my beliefs-- and yours-- are in the minority. The majority of Americans believe very strongly againstly gay marriage.

We agree that's a wrong belief for them to have. But they have it, and they vote on it. That is reality. It's a sad, bigoted, reality, but reality nonetheless.

Now IS the time for gay rights. But not all at once. Change of that type for that many people comes slow.

Eventually we are going to have to connect on a personal level with these people and help them see our viewpoint. Throughout history, it's been slow change along those lines that has won progress in civil rights.

But we cannot do it all at once, and I think that is our mistake. It needs to be one step at a time.

I understand it's frustrating that so many americans can be so regressive on this issue, but it's going to take a lot of work to change this. And it will be one person at a time.

[VelmaD]

105. I don't disagree with you...

I know it's going to take a long time and many small steps to get where we're going. But my point with this thread was that it doesn't help to have people who claim to be Democrats sitting on this board blaming the election loss on gays and women. Last time I checked we were supposed to all be in this together. I'm tired of watching alleged liberals play the blame game and snipe at the traditional scapegoats.

[Shakespeare]

99. dolstein leans in, whispers into the ears of the guys doing the sit-in...

...at the lunch counter and says "guys, now's not a good time to be doing this."

You have got to be fucking kidding me.

Nobody on our side campaigned on gay marriages, by the way.

[dolstein]

106. Perhaps you should read up on the civil rights movement

and particularly the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. They were litigating various aspects of segregation for many years before they took on segregation in the public schools. By the time that Brown v. Board of Education was before the Supreme Court, you had two consecutive presidential administrations (one Democrat, one Republican) on the record supporting desegregation of the public schools. And you had enough progressive justices on the Supreme Court to ensure a lopsided decision in favor of desegregation.

If Brown v. Board of Education had been brought ten years early, they might have lost, or would have at least had a badly divided court. The backlash against Brown was huge, but that's nothing compared to what might have happened if the decision had been handed down ten or fiftheen years earlier. If you think Franklin Roosevelt would have been willing to send in the national guard to enforce the Supreme Court's decision, think again.

[Shakespeare]

118. And perhaps you shouldn't preach to me, dolstein.

I'm quite educated on the civil rights movement, thank you very much.

It's outrageous that you suggest that the NAACP approaches their activist litigation from a purely machiavellian position. They lost many, many battles along the way, but the important thing to remember is that they were always actively fighting in the courts and in the form of very public protests (including those lunch counter sit-ins). I strongly doubt that any NAACP veteran will agree with your suggestion that they just sat down and shut up until they found the climate more agreeable. If they hadn't been constantly pushing and pushing for the 50 years before Brown, they wouldn't haven't gotten that decision, either.

But then again, outrageous mendacity seems to be your specialty around here. Go sell that garbage to your little acolyte jiacinto--but the rest of us here aren't buying it.

[FubarFly]

100. There's nothing wrong with our values.

There is plenty wrong with how we fight for them.

Kerry was opposed to gay marriage, but supported civil unions. IMHO, his cautious nuanced positions made it more difficult to convince people of the fundamental validity of our values. People who are against civil unions are bigoted, and to a man, woman, or child, all principled Democrats should have let them know that. We fought half-assed, ran scared and we got clobbered. Big shock.

[MrTriumph]

102. Tactics inflamed the evangelicals

Whoever had the bright idea to have mass gay weddings & storm county clerk's offices to get licenses blew it. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look at the polling. Hey, ALL ELEVEN GAY MARRIAGE BANS PASSED EASILY.

Every time a picture of gays being married were shown in the media it was like waiving a red flag in front of a bull. And when the offices were overwhelmed for licenses, the evengelicals hit the panic button.

Maybe you think it is better to go down in defeat at the polls than surrender your ideals. That's fine. But no matter how you cut it, Rove used the gay marriage issue (and other tactics) to defeat us Democrats in any number of races including the race for president.

[Mandate My Ass]

95. It seems to be an epidemic -- or a massive infiltration

This place has gone loony since Tuesday.

[Cats Against Frist]

96. Women and Gays did not lose the election

The election was won by right-wing propaganda. Our values are legitimate values and they are right, and they are better. We lost, because the right has framed our debate.

The way to fix this is NOT to move to the center, but to go radical, as opposed to authoritarian.

I've already heard one Democrat on Crossfire say that the Dems are going to push for states' rights. We need to get on board with federalism, and fast. We could peel away the economic Republicans from the religious WHACK JOBS with a more libertarian platform.

[LiberalAndProud]

110. Let not my party abandon me also.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

111. Thank you!

I couldn't have stated it better myself.

[Mike Niendorff]

112. Ok, let's ask an honest question here:

How do you propose to protect your rights if you can't win any elections? And for that matter, what about labor rights? the environment? education? health care? the judicial system? How much else are you willing to sacrifice to ensure the primacy of your key issues? Desegregation? Voting rights? The lives of tens of thousands of soldiers and innocent civilians? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech???

These are NOT rhetorical questions, they are all on the block right now. The right wing has declared war on America. Wake the fuck up.


MDN

[VelmaD]

114. I'm not willing to sacrifice ANY of them...

but it seems like a lot of strait males are willing to sacrifice MY rights as a woman and the rights of my gay brothers and sisters. I believe in ALL of those issues you listed and a lot more in addition and I'm not willing to sell out any of them. Why then do so many of my fellow Democrats seem willing to sell me out.

[Mike Niendorff]

116. Reality check: you do not have the choice anymore.

The damage is now done. Get used to triage.


MDN

[VelmaD]

117. I just love how it's my right...

that everyone seems to have automatically given up on today? I don't see anyone screaming that all those other things you listed are automatically gone though they are in JUST as much peril as choice is. It's scapegoating pure and simple.

[Mike Niendorff]

121. Jesus, do you have even a CLUE here Velma?

Reality calling. Hello? Anyone there? I'm not saying "we should choose between things that are equally in peril but that we are capable of protecting if we want to". I'm saying "we must save what we can and not waste what little we have left fighting battles we WON'T and CAN'T WIN". Jesus, it's like you don't get the true magnitude of the stakes here or something. You think Roe is big? How about another World War? You think the right to marry is big? How about a complete rewrite of the Bill of Rights courtesy of Tom fucking Delay? You think your rights will survive that? You think ANYBODY'S rights will survive that?


MDN

[ironrooster]

119. VelmaD, I'm a straight midde aged male and I'll

fight for your rights as if they were my own. We don't have to be more like the Repukes - we need to start acting like the progressives we are! I'm not willing to win at any cost - I have some integrity damnit. Let the Republican leadership run this country off the rails and then when one of their poor children dies of a botched back alley abortion b/c she was afraid to talk to her oh-so-rightious parents let them cry. G_d forbid, I wouldn't wish that tragedy on any parent, but you reap what you sow. Unfortunately, they want to drag us all to hell with them. They have no empathy for others b/c they believe it will never happen to them or those they love. Oh, but when it does - they start singing a different tune. We voted - we played by the rules and we have the moral authority.

[rniel]

113. The real reason

They studied language and it's effect on emotions about 10 years ago and recently saw the results of their war of words. It has defined democrats with negative emotions.

[Deja Q]

115. Ah, so GLBT folks are the new Naderites. What a bunch of cowards.

Right on! Fuck these breeder bastards. They caused the election to go *. Many voted for * because they are hetero.

</sardonic irony>

I agree. If any Dem has to use GLBT folks to feel better about the loss, then (I won't say it because I'm not the one who deserves to be BANNED.)

This is an outrage and only PROVES that the Dem party is dead, assuming we even have indisputably fair voting sessions in the future, which I doubt - but if nobody is shrieking "FOUL!" over Diebold paperless units now, they sure as hell won't later on.

[Moderator]

122. Locking

From the rules:

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not start a new discussion thread with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility


This thread is also continuing an argument from
another thread. If you want to discuss this topic
please leave out names of other DUers who angered you
or any any clues of who you are talking about. I think
the identity of the person is fairly obvious.

Thank you.

DU Moderator