It's a FReeper Free-For-All! (Or some are in the wrong damn party)

[Q]

- Could there really be this many DUers who don't believe in traditional Democratic values and principles? That don't believe in equal rights for everyone? That believe we must become like Republicans in order to 'win' elections?

- Have they just held back until now? Did the 'fighting and acrimony' forum finally give them an opportunity to cut loose with their RWing, gay-bashing, might makes right, liberal-hating talking points? Perhaps it will ease up after everything settles down and the beautiful light of truth forces the cockroaches back into the shadows?

- My apologies to the administrators. I know that under normal circumstances we're not allowed to accuse anyone of being a 'FReeper'. But these are not 'normal' times and this temporary forum provides an opportunity to say:

We've either been infiltrated like never before...or many so-called democrats simply don't understand what it means to be a Democrat.

[okieinpain]

1. like who

[Q]

Comeon...you know I'm too 'nice' to name names...

...and I sure in hell know you're smart enough to 'get it' on your own.

[sangh0]

7. look for posters who are eager to tar others as "freepers"

"disruptors", "not real Dems", etc

[Q]

24. And what do you find when you're finished 'looking'?

- You just can't seem to understand that many Democrats besides myself are sick and tired of the party being usurped by those who think the only way to win is to become what we say we hate.

- You've been accusing me for years of not being a 'real' democrat. But please don't tell me that a 'real' Democrat falls in line and follows in lockstep. That should be a description of a GOPer...not a Dem.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

48. Maybe they're eager for a good reason.

This format is here for venting so maybe you'll notice that happening.

[VelmaD]

2. When things get rough...

some people rise to the occasion. Others let their fear and anger overwhelm them and they look for someone to scapegoat. Tough times are always informative...they let you know who your real friends are.

[KharmaTrain]

37. Amen...

Victory has 1,000 claimants, defeat has none. DU is traveling down the river Denial...for how long and how bad the damage is has yet to be determined.

[AnIndependentTexan]

3. Read this all forum members

Colonel Richard Prouty, a very famous insider in the CIA during the sixties, and a strong proponent of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, has this to say about conspiracies:

"Conspiracies are easy to formulate and execute. It is the cover-up that is hard."

www.prouty.org

Coverups all have a certain smell to them. I can smell this one a mile away. One particulary smelly aspect of any coverup is the "media blitz" planned a long time before the conspiracy happens. This is what we are seeing in effect yesterday and today about the election.

This his how Prouty knew there was a conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination. He saw huge full-blown press releases on Oswald, detailing Oswald's life, appearing in the New Zealand press when Oswald had been in police custody for only a couple of hours. This information could have only come from the US National Security organizations, and would have never been given to the press otherwise. Instead, what was given to the press was full-blown, already written articles about Oswald. Prouty recognized the fashion, style, and "smell" of the articles as being a CIA black op. He knew -- he was involved in black ops himself.

What we have seen in the last two days are a series of press releases already prepared long in advance. One of the most damning press releases is the one asking "Why are exit polls so wrong?" This article says that people started getting suspicious that exit polls were wrong when they were so off in the Florida 2000 election! This is SO ABSURD, because the exit polls were right on the money in the Florida 2000 election. As with 2004, the exit polls were off because the voting count was tampered with.

Another blatant coverup example that was CAUGHT was CNN changing their exit poll predicitons on the web for Ohio. They switched their exit poll results at 1:00 AM on Wednesday morning from showing a 2% Kerry lead in Ohio to a 1% Bush lead in Ohio. THESE WERE NOT ELECTION RESULTS, they were exit polls. You can't switch exit polls results, unless you were to take a new exit poll, which is impossible to do after the election is over. CNN did it. They are lying to us.

Another coverup we are experiencing right here in this forum is the instant flooding of the forum by freepers trying to dampen, smash down, or just deflect any discussion of the voter fraud. A lot of these posts are pretty outrageous, but a lot are very mild -- such as "we need to just accept this and move on". Now I know that a lot of regular forum members are saying this too, but the number of NEW members saying this is off the charts.

The coverup is in effect. You can smell it everywhere.

[Q]

5. Okay...I'll bite...we can also talk about 'conspiracy theories'...

...but there's one thing I DO know: the Bush* government and their operatives have gone out of their way to convince Americans that anyone even discussing 'theories' outside the official story are crazy or worse.

- How else do you think the Bushies have gotten away with so much? From obstructing investigations into 911 to getting away with outting a CIA agent to an illegal war in Iraq. Investigations and hearings have become obsolete...to be replaced by Blind Faith in a God-fearing glorious leader.

[Q]

6. There are posters right now calling out anyone who wants to discuss...

...election fraud or any other 'theory' that may tend to incriminate the Bushies. That they're 'unanswered questions' don't seem to bother them. They think talking about it makes 'us' look bad. But in reality it makes the Bushies look bad. And we can't have that now..can we?

[sangh0]

23. That's odd

here you are talking about election fraud, and NO ONE is calling you out.

hmmm

[SomthingsGotaGive]

39. you just did....hmmmm

[sangh0]

63. NO I didn't

I believe there was fraud so I didn't question him about the fraud.

[SmokingJacket]

32. YES. If the freeps had really won, why would they come here?

They're trying to quash the questioning as it arises. You know who you are -- I hope they're paying you well.

I have no street cred around here, as a mostly-lurker, but I'm truly startled at the number of subtle-disruptors that have shown up. They have something major to cover up. MAJOR.

Otherwise why hang around a bunch of bummed-out dems?

(edited to correct too-pissed-off typing)

[jhain]

57. Chris Matthews

Distinctly heard Matthews on Tues night saying that he 'couldn't talk about the exit polls'.

[KoKo]

61. Gotta agree with you on this...Interesting article. Remember how fast the

FBI identified the 9/11 Attackers? Had bio's of them up within a day...

But, I don't want to side-track your post.

[ComerPerro]

4. That's the thing about a "wedge" issue

It doesn't just drive a wedge among the centrists and undecideds.

[Q]

9. Does anyone really think the Bushies give a...

...shit about gays marrying? Of course they don't. They don't care about abortions or the 'unborn' or life in general. This is transparent when they yawn at the fact that THEIR bombs are killing thousands of innocent human beings.

- They bring these issues up to whip up a frenzy in the fundementalist fanatics, distract from the important issues and to keep the Bushies out of prison.

[Goldmund]

10. Thank you. I'm glad somebody can see that.

[ComerPerro]

11. Honestly, I don't think they give a shit about anything

Except money and power. They keep that money and power by pretending to embrace values and morality.

[zippy890]

52. Yes, your right

its a profit deal.

I think I'm going to return to the utopian communist philosophy of my youth.

[SmokingJacket]

33. Bush doesn't even go to church.

It's all a smokescreen.

[MrTriumph]

62. But the real question is what do we do about it?

What's the plan when anti-gay measures show up on ballots in 2006 & 2008?

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. So many Democrats bought the stick together line this year. Myself

included. I am ashamed that I let my self be used like this. I failed my kids, I made my husband become more active than he wanted to be. I basically gave away two years of my life. Never again, if we're not going to defend the human race as a whole and just sit back and watch America slide even further into the shit hole.

[Q]

14. Yes..it seems we followed empty promises and rhetoric...

...but no more. What the 'other side' is telling us is that we either become one of them or they'll call us names. Big deal.

- It's time the Democratic party leads by example: honesty, integrity and a refusal to turn a blind eye to the massive corruption in the Bush* admin. No more going along to get along.

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. Here, here Q!!! I'm with you!

:toast:

[Jack_DeLeon]

12. Traditional Democratic Values and Principles

Could there really be this many DUers who don't believe in traditional Democratic values and principles?

Perhaps you were just wrong about what you "thought" were traditional Democratic values.

I dont think Gun Control, Religion Bashing, and Gay Marriage are traditional Democratic Values.

Apparently others are speaking up now that we have lost thanks to people who had a different idea of what our values should be.

[Q]

15. I think it's pretty clear about the meaning of 'traditional values'.

- Those who pretend not to know aren't fooling anyone.

[Mike L]

26. Jack, you are correct.

"I dont think Gun Control, Religion Bashing, and Gay Marriage are traditional Democratic Values."

I lot of people bit their tongues until now for the sake of Party unity.

[Q]

34. Well then...those who believe this way...

...should be glad to join the Republican party and stop pretending to be Democrats. That's the great thing about choice. They'll feel much better than when they don't have to live a lie.

[Mike L]

35. When the Dems make religion bashing and gay marriage part of it's platform

I'll go. Until then, I'll stick it out and try to help the party finally win.

[Blue Wally]

44. Hard to get a majority

When you keep voting people off of the island. If you keep demanding purity and uniformity of thought from every memeber of a large, national party, pretty soon you can hold the national convention in a phone booth.

[Politicub]

30. A lot of people equate gay rights with human rights

That's a core democratic party principal. Look at the makeup of folks at our convention. That's a picture of America -- the whole messy lot of us.

The democratic party is about trying to come together, despite what our differences may be. It's a crazy quilt, indeed, but isn't that individuality also what's great about America?

We respect religion, and think parents should have the right to educate their children in whatever religious tradition that they choose. No one's child should be expected to pray to another child's god just because they happen to go to public schools.

Democratic values = American values or maybe the values of what America can be.

I've met so many great people and learned a lot about myself and the best of my country. And though we lost this battle, we haven't lost the war. We have a network of progressive organizations bigger than any of us thought possible -- and only in a couple of years! Just think of how effective the democratic party and progressives will be once we learn how to apply our creative strength. We'll put the Heritage Foundations et al to shame.

I for one am proud to call myself a democrat. My party isn't perfect (neither is America if you've noticed), but it is made of an amazing cadre of folks committed to equality under the law and prosperity for everyone.

[Cats Against Frist]

43. Fuck values

Once again, we're letting them control the language -- the things that you mentioned -- gun control, gay marriage, religion bashing (meaning secular governance) are not VALUES, they're rights -- two of them, mentioned in the Constitution.

The problem here is not that some people have "values" and other don't. Some people think that by calling some inalienable rights "values" that they can marginalize particular values. Whereas "rights" are a little more concrete, since they can be given by a government.

No one is attacking Christian "values." At worst, we're saying they can't indoctrinate our children or own our bodies because of it -- and we're going to keep them from doing it on a federal level.

I'm personally for decentralization, so they can start the American Taliban out in the middle of OK, somewhere.

The government shouldn't be in the business of granting marriages, anyway.

There is too much that is fucked up about this to even get across.

[TexasSissy]

13. What are you talking about? "Equal rights"? What do you mean?

Are you talking about the gay marriage issue? It would seem so, I guess.

The right for gays to marry is not part of the Dem. Party platform. That someone is against it, or not necessarily for it, or is in favor of it - none of those positions makes you a non-Democrat. Or makes you more of a Democrat than anyone else.

If you want that position to be part of the platform, send your wishes to the DNC or whoever writes the platform. But don't try to make it sound like someone is a Republican because they disagree with you on an issue that's not even part of the party platform.

[sangh0]

17. Q has no interest in the Dem party's platform or their positions

he only wants to split the democrats while complaining about how divisive others are.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

25. It's the "loony left"

for obvious reasons.

[TeacherCreature]

60. Beats the loony, bigoted right any day of the week.

As we see here, over and over, all day today.

The right--the loony right--is apparently alive and well at DU.

[Q]

18. I'm not talking about platforms...and you know it....

...so stop acting so naive. It's YOU that brought up the gay issue...trying to WEDGE this discussion. I'm talking about EQUAL RIGHTS and the way some so-called democrats are attempting to change the meaning. You can't call everyone equal and then say some are more equal and some less.

- If you don't believe in equal rights...then you belong in the party of unequal rights: the GOP....the party of 'might makes right' and 'survival of the fittest'.

[Jack_DeLeon]

20. What rights do Homosexuals not have?

They have the same rights as Heterosexuals.

You are saying that its wrong for a gay man to marry another gay man.

Well I'm a heterosexual man, I also cant marry a heterosexual man.

Looks like we have the same rights.

[Goldmund]

27. Yeah, Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus

Because even the whites wouldn't have been able to sit in the front of the bus if they were black.

[Q]

28. It's very telling that some of you have made GAYS the issue...

...instead of equal rights. I frankly never thought about gays marrying until the Bushies used it as a wedge issue.

- Equal rights. Civil Rights. Civil Liberties. They belong to all human beings. Stop pretending that in America everyone has the same rights. That simply isn't true. Do you think you have the same rights as GWB*? Or does his being rich, white and powerful make him 'more' equal?

- Do you want the Bush* State to decide if a women has a 'right' to choose? What about 'equal rights' for those who don't WANT a state religion?

- The slippery slope is when the government wants to pick and choose who gets certain rights. When and where will it end?

[Liberal Veteran]

29. You have the right to marry the consenting adult you love if she consents.

And with that right you have full range of rights and responsibilities from health care to survivor's benefits to health care proxy next of kin rights.

No you don't have the same rights as me....you have more.

Plus, you on top of it, you can openly admit your heterosexuality in the military and not be kicked out.

[blondeatlast]

45. What flavor Lool-aid are they offering today? nt

[TexasSissy]

47. Equal rights for whom? If you're not talking about gay marriage, then

be specific. What are you talking about?

Are you talking about the equal rights act that gays tried to get passed years ago and failed? Or are you talking about equal rights act for women that women tried to get passed years ago and failed?

You're talking about gay marriage. Be blunt and stop trying to get around the specific issue or turn it into some civil rights thing that it isn't.

Gay marriage is NOT in the Dem. Party Platform. If you want it in there, talk to someone with the power to get it in there. Or you can, instead, just rile everyone up in a forum about their hatred and bigotry for not believing the way you do. I think the former path will get you to your goals faster.

[Steelangel]

16. That's what Skinner warned us about.

These so-called democrats made me sick with their suggestions about abandoning gays or other minorities and/or spilt the party.

I believe that some people around here failed to realize that we have to work together to get our democratic candidate on President's seat for 2008 or else we fail again and again... until we finally get work together. They must realize that we cannot afford to spilt our party...

I admire one of members who posted at Daily Kos about that... I was planning to post about it and chew these democrats around here out about their silly arguments but I realize that they need to vent their angers first so I choose to not.

[Q]

31. Then we need a candidate that's not a sellout and who will fight...

...for the people...not concede to wall street.

- I think we can all get behind One candidate...but he/she should be chosen by the party...not some small group of freelancers in a smoke filled room.

- The problem is that the party bosses want to take us in one direction and the people want to go in the opposite direction. Thus the lukewarm support for Kerry.

[Goldmund]

22. I'm totally with you.

[Q]

42. My apologies to everyone...I'm just trying to raise a stink and make...

...people aware of the great divisions in our party...created mostly by those who either really don't believe in Democratic values/principles or want to muddy the waters and distort issues so that it appears as if we're willing to toss them aside in order to win.

[blondeatlast]

36. What? And miss the fun of the GREAT UNMASKING?

I knows 'em when I smells 'em.

That's all I'm saying.

[sampsonblk]

38. We only stuck together to win this election

And that didn't work. At least that was my impression all along.

So now it looks like we have to tear each other down a bit before we decide if this marriage is worth saving. I think its healthy.

[Eric J in MN]

40. No Democratic candidate for president before 2004 took

a position one way or another on a Consitutional amendment banning gay-marriage from legal recognition.

Now we should let this issue get used against us every time?

It's not like anyone is trying to stop gay weddings. Gay people can have weddings with or without gay-marriage being legally recognized.

Also, presdents have little power over Constitituional amendnments.

[Q]

49. The only reason this issue CAN be 'used against us'...

...is that we won't take a clear stand on the matter. When they say 'gay', we say equal rights and accuse them of bigotry.

- We don't need to 'allow' them to use ANY issue against us. Many Dems are pretending there are shades of gray to the 'gay' and abortion issues. They can't be used against us if we refuse to accept their bigotry and their use of wedge issues to inflame emotions.

- It's not the 'gay issue' that's hurting us. It's our weak-kneed response to equal rights abuses. Certainly you know that all are equal or none are equal?

[AuntPatsy]

41. Considering that I am not as long in politics as many of you, I cannot

say exactly what every aspect of the Democratic party represents, but one of the reasons that I have voted for this party is it's supposed willingness to be fair to every American regardless of sex, race, gender, relgion etc, if it were to change from that, I would have to question it's real value..

So if you don't mind, for all those saying we need to appease all those bigoted morons out there, many of whom I know personaly just to win, than that makes one a Republican in my eyes, they are all for themselves, that is not what I want..

[Q]

46. Like you...I joined the party 30 years ago to fight for the underdog...

...and to speak for those without a voice.

- I'm shocked at the number of democrats who are saying that...in order to win...we have to accept the 'values' of the fanatics and anti-democratic forces that took control of our country.

- I won't accept that we have to help them tear down the wall that separates church and state. I won't help them drive women into self-aborting or illegal abortions in some dark motel. I won't help them privatize our social programs. And I won't help them start illegal wars or pretend they're not guilty of war crimes. I won't help them maintain their shadow and secret government. I won't say that gun control. evironmental/business regulations and affirmative action aren't needed because it's 'unpopular' in the South.

- Unlike the 'conservatives' in our party...I won't appease the fascists simply to have a seat at the table of power.

[ContinentalOp]

50. Good thread.

I think what you're seeing is a combination of:

A. A number of thinly-veiled freepers finally coming out of the closet

B. A lot of bitterness and anger being expressed in poorly-thought-out rants that posters will come to regret later.

C. A lot of bitter and sarcastic posts that attempt to mock the above two but fail and are received by even more bitterness and anger.

And yes, there is probably an element of existing prejudice and bigotry in otherwise progressive people that is coming out with all of the other emotions. Hopefully those people will come to see the error of their thinking.

[Q]

54. Well....all I can say is that...

...I don't want these people in my party or don't want to be in the same party as them.

- I'm sure than anger and bitterness has a lot to do with the 'unusual' posts in the last couple days. But I'm more inclined to believe the first choice 'A'. If you go to certain RWing sites...you'll see that they had planned to invade DU after the election. Looks like they succeeded.

[ContinentalOp]

56. I think I just read the thread that prompted this one.

And I take back my original assessment. There are certainly a lot of disruptors here but I also think there may be a lot more genuine DU bigots here than I expected.

[Q]

58. "Genuine DU bigots"

- Perhaps I thought they were 'disruptors' because I couldn't believe there were so many blatant bigots and sellouts in the Democratic party.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. What It Means To Be A Democrat?

A concern for the little guy and respect for everybody's civil rghts....


Those are fundamental principles but one can disagree with other Dems on a host of issues and not be a wingnut or freeper..

[Nimble_Idea]

53. that's funny coming from you

who attack what you think are foul mouth , southern demeaning Liberals.

I dispute your a liberal. So your definition must be different than from real liberals.

[Q]

55. I wish I understood what you just posted...

...but it's all gibberish to me.

- I don't recognize your handle. You certainly don't know me well enough to say 'that's funny coming from you'.

- I get the impression that you wouldn't know a liberal from a hole in the ground. You have the mistaken impression that all 'liberals' are mealy-mouthed, bleeding hearts that won't speak out against the RWing loons trying to divide our party.

[TeacherCreature]

59. This change has been coming for time I am afraid.

Take a look around at all the anti-gay threads here tonight.

And look at the familiar prosecuting voices who are joining into the chorus.

These are the people who are destroying the party.

And pretty soon they may be all that is left here.