Fuck YOU, Michael Moore!

[geek tragedy]

Condemning, scorning, ridiculing, and complaining may work when making a film, but it is a sorry ass way to conduct a political movement.

The biggest problem with the Democrats and the ABB movement in general was very simple--they were defined by what they opposed and resisted, not what they stood for.

The Democrats need to dump the Terry McAuliffe/Michael Moore attack dog approach to politics, and figure out what the hell they are fighting FOR , rather than what they are fighting AGAINST.

We need to be able to communicate to the public what it means to be a Democrat, what Democrats believe in, what they stand for, what values they hold, what goals they have, and what vision they have for this country and this world.

Ad hoc resistance to a scumbag Rethug won't cut it.

Howard Dean was a terrible candidate, and would have gotten his ass kicked.

But he has a vision for the party. He should have been the nominee and must be the new head of the DNC.

[montana500]

1. its the media, not moore nnm

[geek tragedy]

5. Moore is the poster boy for what is wrong with the Dems.

Moore's life habit is to attack whoever is in power, whether it be Clinton or Bush.

That is not the model for a successful progressive movement.

Too many people think of themselves as "Michael Moore democrats." That is bullshit.

[Placebo]

7. Yup.

[sonicx]

8. moore's not a dem

[Cocoa]

12. lol

good point. :-)

[geek tragedy]

22. He was the spokesman for the Anybody But Bush party.

And this year, the McAuliffite wing of the Democratic party decided to join the ABB party instead of formulating their own values.

[sonicx]

31. It's not MM's job to get people to vote for Kerry rather than vote against

*

[Cocoa]

11. he's not a dem

so how can be be the poster boy for the dems?

[sonicx]

21. i agree

:D ;)

[Trajan]

73. You are presenting the issue ....

as a one sided issue .... it is MANY sided ..... ALL things matter, not just everything but one thing ....

Get a grip ...

[Placebo]

2. I Agree.

[Mizmoon]

3. I liked his film

:shrug:

[geek tragedy]

10. That's the point. He was trying to play kingmaker and activist.

People against Bush acted like Mike was a great hero. He wasn't. He's an angry filmmaker who happened to be directing his anger at someone we hated.

Hatred of Bush and the Republicans, no matter how legitimate, is not a viable vision for the future.

[sonicx]

17. You're right, but Hatred of Bush is why most voted for Kerry.

Kerry's fault more than MM's.

[jdj]

43. and this affected the election how??

surely you are aware you are not making any sense?

[geek tragedy]

55. He is a symbol of the Democratic/anti-Republican movement.

Defined by what he criticizes and what he is against. Not what he is for or what ideas he as to make the world a better place.

The Democratic party needs to get its shit together, and whining about Diebold is not the way to get it done.

We need to say what we are FOR. That is not something that Michael Mooresque politics allow.

[sonicx]

59. The dems didn't have the option to think and act for themselves

and ignore MM message?

[geek tragedy]

66. The problem is larger than Michael Moore, of course.

The problem is in us, that we do not provide a clear message and alternative to the Rethugs.

We need to go back to the drawing board.

[sonicx]

70. ok, so why isn't this thread named "FUCK OURSELVES"

[geek tragedy]

72. Because masturbation will soon be illegal in Jesusland. eom

[Texasgal]

112. I agree!

I mean...what's the fucking point sitting around whining about Micheal Moore? HE DIDN'T LOOSE THIS FUCKING ELECTION!


Why must we point fingers?

It's YOUR FAULT!
It's MY FAULT!

Simply put: WE DIDN'T GET TO ENOUGH PEOPLE FOLKS!

STOP POINTING FINGERS! GEEZ!

[TrustingDog]

4. you lay off of Mikey, ya hear?

[Cocoa]

6. when it's the Worst President Ever

someone HAS to be against him.

Anyway, the right wing did pretty well by defining themselves against Clinton.

[geek tragedy]

13. That's the point. Being anti-Bush isn't enough.

Defining oneself by what one is against is not constructive or successful.

[blondeatlast]

33. Tell that to Bill Clinton.

Sheesh, did I make a wrong turn on the way to DU today?

[jdj]

45. yeah, that never works...abortion, gay marriage...

did you sleep through November second or something?

[geek tragedy]

58. It works for the party of Hate. We are the party of hope, and we need to

sell our hope, our plan, our vision.

And to do that, we need to have all of those things. The Michael Moore mentality doesn't have those things.

[sonicx]

64. The Dems have the option to ignore and shun MM

[jdj]

96. have you had any therapy for this?

he has the same constitutional rights as anyone else.

why post on a message board about him when you can go out and do your own thing?

[Lars39]

9. What a pile of crap.

F 9/11 educated and turned many people to vote Dem.

[Placebo]

15. So many to vote Dem...

that we lost in a landslide.

[Straight Shooter]

24. Landslide? What the hell have you been smokin'?

It can't be legal ;)

[sonicx]

27. how is that MM's fault?

can't wait to hear this...

btw, do you know what a landslide is?

[Lars39]

29. With reports of bbv fraud still coming in? Fffft.

Dissin' Mike Moore is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

100. Since when is 51% a landslide?

[Dutch Courage]

23. I wonder why

the rest didn't

[Cha]

14. BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT!

[DrWeird]

16. Personally, I hold you accountable for the whole mess.

So fuck you, geek_tragedy.

[Amaya]

18. You serious?

[otohara]

19. Ohhh...This Helps A Lot

Tell me, how does the Democratic Party dump a guy who was never part of their orginization in the first place?

[jdj]

20. what?

give me a break, he's a filmaker, not a politician.

he has a right to his opinon, just as much as the makers of Stolen Honor do

you know when you refer to us dems in the third person it makes me wonder why you are lecturing all of US. It sounds weird.

[sampsonblk]

25. Maybe you should put some more thought into that

Micheal Moore took up the fight because our beloeved party leaders were caving in. Or have you forgotten that so quickly? For a minute there, Michael Moore WAS the party. The only voice of opposition.

[geek tragedy]

36. It was Howard Dean that took up the brave and good fight.

Anyone can make fun of Chimpy and condemn him. BFD.

It takes real work and courage to choose a vision for America and the world and DEFEND it against attackers.

Anyone can attack, few can advocate in a positive manner.

[Generator]

40. Attack my fucking ass-it's about telling the truth

Michael Moore outed the brave 9/11 president as a fraud.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

113. Are you another sleeper cell member?

are you for real?

Do you think MM is defined by his Latest success ?

Michael Moore has been defined by what he believes in which is obvious to anyone that has watched his movies, t.v shows, and read his books.


Anyone that blames others and demands we move on to 06 or 08 is a member of a sleeper cell planted a long time ago to disrupt the fight to save the election from being stolen.

Fuck greek_tragedy and anyone that insists I move on or blame fellow Dem's.


Wake up people this election was stolen and the thieves are laughing all the way to the bank.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

26. sniff sniff ..... been smelly for awhile

[jdj]

38. half the board ate burritos for dinner apparently.

my trollodometer is going off every five seconds.

I'm getting suspicious of this whole board.

Maybe it will get better, most of these folks are doing worse than usual because they aren't supposed to mix their meds with alcohol, and they are still recovering from their victory party.

[Individualist]

60. stinks worse than a skunk

[KittyWampus]

28. Are You On The Verge Of Outing Yourself As A Freeper?

this thread is so stupid I hesitate to kick it...

[Amaya]

37. It's obvious

What *IT* is

[geek tragedy]

47. Because the Michael Moore message worked SO WELL this time.

It didn't.

ABB is a failure as a movement.

Moore FAILED to have ANY effect on this election.

Anger and opposition are losing themes.

[blue sky at night]

67. easy to say....

where is the proof, and when you come down, re-read the shit you are spewing on here.

[geek tragedy]

75. We need a message, a vision, a clear statement of values and goals

in order to shape the debate in this country.

Right now, all we do is oppose what the Republicans are proposing. When we do that, we are still playing their ballgame on their playing field.

That is a surefire way to lose the game.

We need to state what we are about, how we see the issues, and take that message to the streets.

[robbedvoter]

30. Fuck you, geek tragedy and anyone jumping on this shitty banwagon

How dare you?
Did Moore diebolded us? We won, they stole it, MM did more than Kerry to unite the left on this. Fuck you very much and all kool aid drinkers who turn freepers cuz media told them so.

[spooky3]

82. Yours is the clearest presentation of the BBV problems--where

did you get the #s? And do you have them for VA, where there is electronic voting in at least some precincts?

Thanks.

[shmendrick]

32. Good Post

Good post, and you are right.

MM may have been preaching to the DU choir, who loved him.

But I tell ya what, most Americans are disgusted by him.

[robbedvoter]

42. "most Americans" - in the non-reality based realm?

Fuck you and "most Americans" too.
Do I need the mediawhores vomit on DU now?

[shmendrick]

61. whatever

Did we win?

[sonicx]

65. Kerry and the dems' fault.

[Amaya]

49. "most Americans are disgusted by him"

LMFAO! That's why he packs in crowds where ever he goes... Books are number one.. Number one movie... Hmmmm yes, Americans hate him.

[geek tragedy]

76. Lots of liberals hated Michael Moore before F911.

There's a lot of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" support for him.

[Amaya]

104. Take some fucking meds

:freak:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

34. NO FUCK YOU!...you smell BAD!!!!!

[Hello_Kitty]

35. "Condemning, scorning, ridiculing,"

Sure worked for the * campaign. We just didn't retaliate with our own well enough.

[geek tragedy]

41. That is how the Republicans win. We can't win a war of hate with them.

The progressive movement had its ass handed to it because they didn't have much of a message other than "ABB."

[robbedvoter]

Then love them geek, go give them some lovin' and spare MM and DU

My ass has not been handed to me - just another stolen election, a*hole!

[sonicx]

53. and this is MM's fault how? I thought it was Kerry's job to get people to

for him rather than against bush.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Yes we can. Hate and simplistic slogans win elections now.

[geek tragedy]

78. That is a fallacy. Embracing the Dark Side only helps the party of Hate.

[malletgirl02]

51. I agree

Republicans "condemn, scorn, and ridicule" all the time, so why are we the ones who have to play nice all the time?

[Steelangel]

39. how lovely

democrats/liberals bash other democrats/liberals. is that where we are at now?

No wonder that republicans easily outmaneuvered us.

[Obviousman]

44. i strongly disagree

Moore gave us the hope and the fire to fight. his role as a film maker was to unveil what the bush administration had covered up. Moore alone cannot fight this. its not his duty to solve the problems. he showed nearly everything that was nasty and evil with the bush administration, and for his courage he should be commended. if anything, democrats need more fire in their belly and need to stick to principle. im not talking about the so called "moral values" that gave bush the presidency, im talking about democratic values that we will never betray. that is what moore is trying to get us to do

[jacksonian]

46. ya, ya style is in this year

Listen either start a thread titled "MICHAEL MOORE IS INACCURATE AND WRONG ON THESE KEY POINTS" and fill in some proof, or get off the pot.

Some filmaker makes a film, you don't like it and the Dems are ruined. Gimme a fuckin' break.

[Trahurn]

48. OH so you're saying

So you're saying we should adopt the Rove/GOP attack dog strategy? Why not. It worked for the republcians. That and adjusting final counts in the right state or two.

[robbedvoter]

54. No, he says they can hate, we need to turn the other cheek

Or sumpthin' like that.

[geek tragedy]

83. No, we need to fight FOR what we believe in and make our case

to the voters. We need to set the debate on our terms, rather than reacting to what the Rethugs do.

[blue sky at night]

50. so what did you do exactly and how many hours did you......

fucking work to defeat G.W.?? So easy to point fingers and say this is wrong and that is wrong. Please tell us how many thousand voters you fucking influenced??? Shove it dude and come back when you are ready to get to work.

[KG]

52. funniest shit i've read all day....

:D

[robbedvoter]

57. Love the way you see it.

[Malva Zebrina]

62. So now MM is the enemy?

He did a great service by bringing the facts to the surface when no one else, including our very brave represntatives in our stuffy pandering Congress would not.

Please--the guy made a successful political documentary on the conditions of this Bush regime and I have never viewed Moore as a greedy sob out for all the money he could make by making a political statement because the facts say otherwise.

Geez--it was the only thing out there and now this guy is an enemy?

[robbedvoter]

69. Teeve told him so, so it must be true.

http://www.cafepress.com/bettybowers/415136

[geek tragedy]

71. He is not an enemy--but his style of activism helps the Republicans

We got our asses KICKED on Tuesday. We need to do better.

[sonicx]

77. MM didn't turn out pukes. "Homo fear" did.

[geek tragedy]

85. He sure as hell didn't turn out many Dems, did he? eom

[sonicx]

95. Number One: Dem turnout was highest ever

Number 2: MM is not the head of the DNC or the candidate.

[Malva Zebrina]

92. You seriously think it is Moore's fault?

come on--the guy is a movie maker not a member of the US Congress and not a candidate. He is on the same level as the many editorials we have read over the past six months except that he added visuals and powerful visuals the content which many had ever seen. He made a powerful documentary--so powerful that he is now the enemy and his own are eating him alive like Cronus ate his son. How about Paul Krugman? Beat him up also while you are at it. HOw about the many that wrote books--O'Neil, Franken with his less than informative book, and hey how about Kitty Kelly? Beat her up also?

The way we can do better is stop attacking our own. The way we can do better is to set a fire under the seats of our representative in the Congress to do SOMETHING about the BBV. MOore mentioned nothing about religion in his film. We think it was the outpouring of Christians who voted against such things as the gay marriage agenda that caused the loss. Moore never entered that melieu.

Maybe the proper film maker to blame would be Mel Gibson instead of MM.

[geek tragedy]

94. The big problem for the Democrats over the past twenty years is that

they have become the party of no ideas, while the Republicans are the party of really, really bad ideas.

In that scenario, the Republicans win the debate because, while their ideas totally suck, they provide a framework for debate. They choose the issues. We react to them. That is a losing proposition.

[Malva Zebrina]

107. well duh

what does that have to do with MM award winning documentary?

and the Repubs do NOT win any debates. They simply lie, over and over and over. They do NOT debate with anyone and will continue that pattern in the next four years. They will simply demand total and complete aquiesence from the people--or else.

[FrenchieCat]

63. The media's

Demonization of Michael Moore hurt democrats.....not Michael Moore himself. Hell, the media and the RNC demonized Clarke, Wes Clark, Ritter, Wilson's wife, Dean and anyone else that spoke against this administration.

Spend more time demonizing the media instead of believing what they are serving...
During the primaries, they picked our Frontrunner(Dean) than tore into him,
then gave all of the moe and coverage to Kerry and Edwards during the primaries,
Basically picked our VP by reporting only about how great Edwards was and then turned on him and ignored him during the General election....
...then they ordered the DNC not to "bash Bush" during the convention,
while allowing the Swift Boat Tidy Bowl Vets to attack Kerry as though they were legit,
trumpeted how great the Repug convention was,
while later underreported Bush's terrible debate performances,
but over reporting the "Mary Cheney" comments.
Were allowed to sway public opinion through their various skewed polls throughout the election cycle,
and then reported on voting problems evenly with Dems trying to get dead people to vote vs. Repugs supressing the vote.
All in all, the cable media did us a job.
Go rag on them for a while.

Michael Moore was most likely our saving grace......

[Blue_Tires]

68. this is a joke thread, right??

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

74. Agreed!

Michael Moore is our Michael Savage.

But with a BUDGET!!

[geek tragedy]

80. Michael Moore is not an indecent monster like him. It is his style

and methods that are counterproductive.

The Freepers levelled a ton of hate at Clinton. Clinton would have kicked Bush's ass this election.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

86. Clinton would now be tied with FDR...

...Just thought of that. WOW! What a different would it would be!!

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

79. Ok Mr. tragedy, let's hear your ideas then

instead of knocking someone who opened many eyes. This war against Bush isn't just by Democrats. I'd no more join the Democratic Party than howl at the Moon. But Bush is above normal politics in the importance of his demise and I enjoy my healthy hate for Bush. I appreciate the fix of a great Bush bashing. I suspect others might feel similarly.

[hiphopnation]

81. one part of your name is right

and it's not "geek". I consider that a term of endearment. Tragic? Yes indeed. Say hi to the freeps ya nookie-licker! :thumbsup:

[manic expression]

84. Yeah, OK

let's NOT criticize whoever is in charge because that's not what democracy's about. Right?
Give me a break!!! Clinton had a lot of crappy stances (Israel), and Bush is the worst thing to ever happen to America since the Civil War. We stand for so many things, but idiots like you can't percieve them.
GO TO HELL!

[Q]

87. I can understand some of your rant...

...but it's a bit over the top to bring Moore into the mix. Moore is not a Democrat...he's a independent film producer with first amendment rights.

[geek tragedy]

89. He is a symbol. He has a huge audience, and he did not use that

power wisely.

The Michael Moore approach to social change is doomed to self-destruction.

[sonicx]

97. who cares. It's Kerry responsibility to sell himself.

[geek tragedy]

106. Was there a clear Democratic vision which Kerry could rely upon?

Look at his pitiful waffling on the gay marriage issue. He should have called the issue for what it was--an attempt to distract people so that they'd vote against their own self-interest.

Instead, he went Republican-lite on the issue when he should have challenged the issue itself.

That is what I mean by the Dems being reactive instead of proactive.

[Generic Other]

88. Screw this shit

I know who stands beside me.

[Maiden England]

90. its not the message nor the gift wrap we put it in

its the fact that when we give it to the post office, they re-wrap it in brown paper and ship it like that.

The enemy has a mouthpiece - the media. We will never get our message out without getting rid of the propaganda.

[geek tragedy]

There is some truth to what you say, but we have to have a message

of what we believe in that we can sell.

[wickywom]

91. I personnally know two repubs who switched thier vote to

Kerry after they saw that film.
Now that the eleciton is over perhaps we can get more to see it.

[smbolisnch]

93. Bullshit

Michael Moore is a filmaker, NOT a politician. It's not his responsibility to knock sense into the American people, but he was the one doing it, and the only one for a while. When he was selling out theaters and had the #1 books in the country and worked his ass off to get the truth out about *, were you scapegoating him then? Hell no. That's BS. If it weren't for Moore, the millions of people who now know the truth about 911 now would not have a clue. I for one, am grateful to him for that. I don't get how you can try to blame downfall of a party he doesn't even belong to on him :shrug:

[Politicub]

98. Michael Moore kicks ass

He energized a lot of people and started a conversation about the truth.

[nancyharris]

99. Sorry to say but geek tragedy is absolutely correct.

Michael Moore provided more votes for President Bush than any single person in America. You can close your eyes to this but you do so at you own peril. His attendance at the Republican convention after releasing 911 GALVANIZED the impression that Senator Kerry and the Democratic Party were completely out of step with middle America. (And to a large extent that is true). This campaign was always about defeating President Bush and seldom about electing Senator Kerry and that is the main reason that we lost.

[sonicx]

105. MM did not turn out pukes. "Morals" did. And...

it's Kerry's job to sell himself.

BTW, how are dems out of step with the mainstream? can't wait to hear this...

[geek tragedy]

111. Dems are not out of the mainstream. They just do a very piss poor

job of articulating how and why they are part of the mainstream.

[kodi]

101. time to change your diaper dude, it stinks

its true that all people are equal, but all ideas are not. yours are inferior and the product of appalling ignorance of the way the world works.

have a nice day.

[dave502d]

102. Your right, Moore belongs to Nadar. n/t

[bacchant]

103. What if Kerry didn't exactly embody what I stand for?

Using your logic I shouldn't have voted for him. ABB isn't the problem, to some degree we're all ABB.

[Endangered Specie]

108. Jump off a fucking cliff.

M Moore is a respectable guy, and if only we all fought as hard as he did.

[AuntPatsy]

109. I don't agree, he calls like he sees him he deserves respect for

that and nothing else...

[Dukakis88]

110. He needs to shave his back and buttocks.

Micheal more need visit from Queer Eye for Strait Guy