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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-04-04 11:33 PM
Original message
Dear DU Homophobes
Do not stop go, do not collect $200. Go to your nearest Republican headquarters and switch affiliations now. We do not need you. We do not want you. That is all.
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. um, not to defend homophobia, but telling eveyone who's the least bit
uncomfortable with homosexuality to leave the party is saying to a big chunk of people (who, let's not forget, were raised in a homophobic country, might now actually know any gay people, and odds are would like and respect them if the knew them) to fuck off. It's that kind of thing that loses elections. Some people are of two minds about it; should they leave? You need these people on your side. You need to convince them that it neither picks their pocket or breaks their leg if two men or two women get married. You don't need to tell them to go fuck themselves.
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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Agreed.
Telling people to go Cheney themselves for speaking their minds should be left to the repukes. In fact, this whole mindset of pushing our values on the entire nation should be left to the repukes. If people in certain ststes don't want gay marriage, they shouldn't be forced to have it. If you give the issue to the states, the blue states can allow it immediately, and that's a lot more progress than allowing the repukes to win because we can't compromise and want to force our values on everyone.

Also, this business of calling people "homophobes" is ugly, and reminds me a lot of those who call Democrats "traitors." I have yet to see any real homophobia shown here at DU, except from some freeper trolls who got banned.

You DO NOT have to be a homophobe to see that imposing gay marriage on the entire nation at the federal level is the kind of thing that loses elections. I support gay marriage, BTW. I just don't support losing crucial elections to bufoons like Bush because of it.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Hey, I didn't call ANYONE a homophobe.
If they want to assign the moniker to themselves and defend their own homophobia, that's fine with me.

If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, then don't. There's nothing to see here.

If you aren't a homophobe, then forget it. But the fact you responded makes me wonder...
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. delete
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 12:38 AM by Jack_DeLeon
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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. I can't help that.
If you want to wonder, wonder. Hey, I might be a Martian too. I might be a Communist. I could be the Lindbergh baby.

But I'm not, and I'm not a homophobe. If you want to believe I am anyway, nothing can be done about it.
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Ma'am, there's a world of difference in explaining why someone might
feel a bit put out about having their party defined by a single issue (i.e., I'd hate it just as much if the issue was "anyone who doesn't support the unconditional banning of all firearms should fuck off and be a Republican"), and saying that gay people don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us. Like another poster said, I'm a pragmatist. I'm trying to explain why some people might feel uncomfortable with a party where the main issue was gay rights. These people are ones we need to vote for us. These are people we need to do one of three things with; either convince them that gay mairrage is an unalienable right, or convince them that it doesn't harm them, or at the very least that government shouldn't regulate it.

If you're seeing me as a homophobe, I'd suggest taking a deep breath and remembering that we're on the same side, here.
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texas is the reason Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. based on your def. of homophobia, enjoy your new democratic third party.
maybe the dems will even get 5-10% of the vote! could even give the libertarians or the greens a run for the money.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I didn't define homophobia.
If you feel guilty enough to respond to this post, maybe you've defined it for yourself.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Skinner defined homophobe for this place in his thread.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Skinner's wording is beautiful
"But this is a litmus test issue, because we are talking about REAL PEOPLE, our fellow members of this community. I simply will not tolerate the idea of some DU members arguing that other DU members are not deserving of full and equal rights. This is a moral issue. If DU had existed back during the civil rights movement, I hope that we would all agree that this was not the place to discuss whether blacks deserve civil rights."

Worthy of a sigline somewhere!
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texas is the reason Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. you have been defining it all night.
you think that anyone who doesn't vocaly support gay marriage or bringing GLBT issues to the forefront of the national debate is a homophobe. i think they are pragmatists bounded by political reality, who would like to win an election or two. we agree to disagree.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's not what Skinner says and Skinner is God here. nt
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texas is the reason Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. where did you glean that from?
"6. It is not homophobic to point out the obvious truth that there are large numbers of people in large regions of the country who are opposed to gay rights. ON EDIT: It also not homophobic to point out that political candidates, particularly those running in conservative areas, may have to compromise on the issue of gay rights for the purposes of political expediency."

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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Looks like he will have to ban about half the board, then.
I see a LOT of support for the idea that gay marriage is not an issue we can win with. If that makes a person a homophobe, it looks like DU has about a 50% rate of homophobia.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. You seem to know a lot about DU for only 33 posts.
I've never seen this kind of homophobia here before. And I don't want to see it again.

You're wrong about DU. And being conciliatory on issues of civil rights will get us nowhere.
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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. There is such a thing as lurking.
I'm a long-time lurker. I left the shadows after our loss.

You keep claiming that there is all sorts of homophobia here. Would it also be homophobic to ask you to provide some actual examples? If you are going to accuse people of being bigots, can you back it up? After all, it's a very serious accusation you are making. I'd imagine that many here are probably not too happy with being labelled "homophobic."

This kind of thing is what is ruining the Democratic party, and it is why we have crazy idiots like Zell Miller turning against us. As long as we have a large group of radical leftists inside our party who are ready to label people "bigots" at the drop of a hat, moderates, centrists, and swing voters are going to keep running in the other direction. This is why we lose. People see us as extremists, and it's because of statements like the ones you are making.

Is there anything homophobic in anything I've said here? Again, I do NOT oppose gay marriage. In fact, I find nothing wrong with it and fail to see why anyone would. To me, it's a total non-issue -- if it were my choice, I'd let whoever wants to marry do so. And yet I suspect I am STILL going to get called a homophobe, simply because I think the issue should be left to the states. If a ban ever comes up in my state, I will vote AGAINST it. However, I won't pretend that our party can win if we keep trying to force gay marriage at the federal level. It's not an issue we can win with. That's not homophobia, it's POLITICS.
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. shut up
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Bill O'Reilly...is that you?
I didn't know you cared.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Apparently plenty of them did in the election...
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 12:30 AM by Jack_DeLeon
for the races to be as close as they were in so many states.

Just look how much of the Hispanic vote was lost to Bush.
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asianjoanne Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. My two cents worth.
I just wanted to comment in here about all the gay marriage amendments that passed to BAR them from getting married.

I think the government has NO place in deciding for people who they can and cannot marry, REGARDLESS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION! Now that gay marriage is banned in several states, what's next? My boyfriend is part Mexican and I'm asian. Are they going to ban "interracial marriage" next?

I see NO REASON for the government to stick their noses into people's personal lives and DICTATE that they cannot marry each other if they are GLBT! It's wrong! God only knows what other "new amendments" will pass soon. Welcome to George Bush's America.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
18. LadyHawk - who are you calling a homophobe? nt
nt
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. I thought I was through fighting, but apparently I'm still pissed.
I think those of you who want to sell out homosexuals to win elections are fucking nuts. Why do you want to scapegoat an entire population of people? I'd rather slit my wrists than win an election that way.

No, we can't agree to disagree when the civil rights of an entire population of people are at stake. So again I say: Go Cheney yourselves! Deeply...with a broken fluorescent tube. If you are willing to sacrifice civil rights for a shallow win, we don't want you. We don't need you.

Besides, it wasn't the homosexuals' fault. It wasn't John Kerry's fault. It wasn't local Democrats' fault. Hell, it wasn't even Terry McAuliffe's fault.

It was voting fraud. And if you can't accept that and still want to scapegoat gay people, we don't want you. We don't need you.

As for me forming a new party, no thank you. You are the ones who are advocating a shift toward intolerance and collaboration. Go make your own party...maybe the DLC-Let's-Kiss-Shrubya's-Homophobic-Ass Party. Huh? That sound good, you bunch of brown-nosing, shit-eating sell-outs?

Again, you will know by your conscience whether or not I am speaking to you. No thinking, caring person would bail on our homosexual friends. If your conscience is pricked and you feel the need to reply: We don't need you. We don't want you. Go away.

As of this post, I'm through fighting. Everyone's blood is up, mine included. I'm disgusted that some of you want to make concessions to the right. It almost made me puke.

I can do without this negativity brought on by the small minded. DU doesn't need your kind of crap right now. Now that I've released some of this, this...soul-sucking disgust out of my system, I'm going to go focus on something constructive, not something that tears down this Party--like wanting to push gay people's rights out of our platform.

Just like everyone else, I'm pissed enough about the election without having some knuckle-dragging, two-digit-IQ, intolerant asswipes make it worse.

So now let's all shut the fuck up and do something constructive with our time and posts.

THAT IS ALL!

P.S. I don't have time for collaborators. You will be ignored.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I dont think voter fraud accounts for the...
the passage of most all of the "gay marriage bans."
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texas is the reason Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. two digit IQ, eh?
you are the one that is too obtuse to see that your inflexibility is causing your own peril. this type of bullheaded denial of reality is seldom seen outside of, well, the bush administration... quit feeling sorry for yourself, you heterophobe. see, i can avoid the issues by name calling, too. you disagree with me, and i am straight. you must hate straight people. why do you hate straight people, heterophobe?
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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Who needs who?
"If you are willing to sacrifice civil rights for a shallow win, we don't want you. We don't need you."

And who decided it is a "civil rights" issue rather than a cultural issue?


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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. And When They Lynched The Black Boy For...
Whistling At The White Woman???

Was that a "CULTURAL" issue... hmm???

:shrug:
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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Well, that was quite a hateful outburst.
Tolerance and inclusiveness don't seem to mean much when it comes to people who actually disagree. Looks like tolerance is only for people who think exactly like you do.

I'm not so sure about who needs to join the GOP...

Besides, there is already a party for radical leftists -- the Green Party. I'm sure most of them would totally agree that anyone who thinks gay marriage is best decided by the states is a homophobic bigot. That's great for the Greens, but I don't think that kind of extremism helped us Democrats on Tuesday, and I don't think it will ever help us. America is simply NOT a radical nation. Most are in the center-right, and if ever want to compete again, it's going to take some compromises. If you can't handle it, the Greens could always use new recruits. The Green Party already knows that they can't win, so they are all about principle, and that's great. However, most Democrats still have some interest in WINNING.
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chimp chump Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
27. the numbers involved and party focus
I've lived in rural areas and in one big city. I don't think I've ever lived anywhere that the local gay population even reaches 5%. But let's assume it does nationally.

Among that 5%, couples who want to marry seem to be a *very* small number. And I mean marriage in the traditional sense, a couple united for life for the purpose of raising children. I'm not talking about open marriage where the 'spouses' get to date and have sex with anyone they want. I call those kind of spouses 'roommates'.

Judging by the number of civil union ceremonies we've seen, it's not clear that the gay marriage issue is even the top issue with gays. I'd guess that maybe 25% support it strongly. The rest? They don't have such a strong view on it or see other issues as a higher priority.

It's difficult to imagine that we're talking about even 1% of the general population actually wanting to marry a person of the same sex. I think it's less than half of that because I've known a lot of gays but only a handful of monogamous couples. Certainly they exist. But it is a small number.

I don't think it is helpful to pretend that the issue of gay marriage is the single most important one for the gay community at large. Many of them might tell you they are more interested in anti-discrimination in housing and in employment than they are in social or legal recognition of a monogamous relationship.

You also don't seem to recognize that imposing gay marriage will undoubtedly increase competition for the children available for adoption. I'm quite sure the large numbers of people who have adopted or want to adopt and their extended families simply don't want to increase competition for those kids. It's not like there's a great surplus of kids to adopt and raise. So there's a very practical issue here. Marriage has been tied to childrearing from ancient times. And it still is.

Regardless of the merits of gay marriage, if it is the single most distinctive issue in your platform and legislative agenda, you can't be surprised if your opponents use it against you. This was true in many elections where pro-lifers like Dole lost to pro-choicers and complained about it. Same is true of Bush Senior (big pro-choicer) losing the primary to Reagan and being forced to repudiate his career of promoting pro-choice in the GOP in order to become VP and then president. But as we observe that in past decades that the pro-lifers very likely cost the GOP some elections or forced their candidates to embrace a pro-life position they didn't agree with, so we have to recognize that the tide may be going out on abortion and gay marriage, not coming in. So Democrats in the past benefitted in many states from pro-choice positions. Now that pro-life is benefitting the GOP, we can't somehow pretend that it's only legitimate for voters to express their ideas on the issues if they vote for Democrats.

Politics is like that. Sometimes an issue which won you votes for decades can turn into a loser until you correct your course and align yourselves with the voters. It's a thing they call democracy. You've probably heard of it.

Now, maybe a GOP candidate blaming the party's pro-life position is just an excuse offered for a poor campaign or an unattractive candidate. But there is little doubt in my mind that for many years, the pro-life vote cost the GOP elections. And some of this had to do with generational issues, about people who, as they aged, didn't really seem to realize that birth control and family planning had changed over the years.

During the Fifties and Sixties and Seventies, you had a voting population who was accustomed to failure of birth control. Condoms and spermicides and diaphragms were often ineffective, even in the hands of calm and determined married couples. Let alone teenagers. I'd say that most of us born in that era were born despite our parents' efforts to do family planning.

Now, even though the Pill changed all that starting in the Sixties, it took a while for it to become more universal and for it to really sink in.

Today, most people are and have been in a very different situation reproductively than their parents were. Women take the Pill. And when a couple has decided they don't want more kids, the husband routinely gets a vasectomy, generally because most husbands don't want their wives to continue to take the Pill for health reasons. Vasectomy simply wasn't an option, medically or culturally until the last fifteen years.

So what we see is something of a change in attitude toward the entire family planning issues facing middle- and upper-class people, i.e. those who do most of the voting. I thought I'd also mention that most American Catholics are either practicing birth control or they lost interest in sex in the last generation because the size of R.C. families has declined noticably. Another issue that once played strongly was the plight of the rape victim. But it is routine procedure now to prescribe morning-after drugs to prevent a fertilized egg from attaching. So a little more of the wind is dropping out of the sails of the good ship Abortiana.

You know, to hear the shrill pro-choice element talk about it, you'd think the average woman in America gets a couple of abortions a year. But it simply isn't true.

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. The capture of the Party by abortion and gay marriage activists is serving a very small base of voters whose numbers are likely to actually decrease as a percentage of the total voter base. I'm not talking about the merits of either as a civil right. I'm talking about who thinks it's important enough to base their vote on those issues alone.

The same thing already applies to gun control, an issue which national Democrats have learned to back away from because of how much it accelerated the realignment of the South toward the GOP, starting in '94 with the Gingrich congress. And on the gun issue, many Democrats may be surprised to learn that gun groups like NRA and GOA were going to be hard pressed to withhold their endorsement from a Dean candidacy because Dean was governor of Vermont, the state with the most liberal CCW laws in America. And Bush kept saying he was willing to sign the AWB. So Dean had absolutely no liabilities on gun issues and didn't even have to run around dressing in camo and talking about hunting. The GOP knew that Dean couldn't be tarred as anti-gun. Kerry, OTOH, did make some speeches and cast some votes over the years that were used against him. To the credit of the Kerry campaign, he largely succeeded in neutralizing the effort to use the gun rights issue against him. This was pretty important for his campaign in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania.

The extreme secularism of certain elements of the Party has certainly accelerated to the decline of Democrats in the South as well. In the Bible Belt, religion and politics are and always have been intertwined. Whether you like it or not.

Anyway, you can rant all you want and get all puffed up and call everyone a homophobe. But you can't make more them vote for what you want, no matter what you say to them. The numbers simply are not there and are unlikely to be there in coming years. Ultimately, we may see popular opinion on the matter change over the next decade with more voters and elements in both parties gaining ground on the gay marriage issue. Much of the reason why we saw the GOP make such effective use of the issue was because they were able to present the actions of the S.C. in MA as a threat that would impose gay marriage on all fifty states. This was a tremendous influence on the outcome of the gay marriage bans. The voters simply did not want to have gay marriage rammed down their throats by less than a dozen state supreme court justices from a little state most of us have never visited. It is a situation comparable to how Democrats feel about Bush having been selected by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. There's no way to feel good about our political life and discourse being completely set aside by less than a dozen judges somewhere.

I think the focus of abortion rights and gay marriage rights will devolve increasingly upon the states. Depending on the Bush appointments to the S.C., it could happen in the next few years. Abortion and gay marriage advocates need to focus on developing organizations to advocate their cause to the public but especially in state courts by using the rights guaranteed by state constitutions. The ACLU has done this with considerable success for decades. By adopting this practical solution on the advocacy of gay marriage and abortion rights, you will have a more practical basis for success and will not force the national Democratic party to identified with issues that are losing elections for them in the present political climate.
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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Very well stated.
A breath of fresh air.
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chimp chump Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Thanks for reading it.
It was too long-winded. But we need to form some ideas about the election results.

I'm surprised more people don't comment on how well Kerry did against an incumbent wartime president. And Kerry is a liberal from Massachussetts. I think the Bush bunch must not be quite as happy about this result as they pretend to be. Earlier, I think they really expected a Bush landslide like 55%-60%. Given his incumbent advantage and his wars which are presented as avenging our 9/11 victims and preventing future attacks, Bush didn't really do all that well. It's hard to call his rather narrow victory any kind of real mandate.

Anyway, Kerry did a better than many political observers would have expected, a surprisingly strong candidate.
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StickNCA Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Wow! *applause*
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 04:28 AM by StickNCA
(edited some spelling only)
Great explanation with which I see nothing to disagree with.

If I wasn't so fucking afraid of getting booted off the site for views that do not conform to the DU mindset I'd probably have said something similar myself (though far less eloquently). But fuck it, this is the Party of Tolerance and Free Thinking is it not?

On that same topic, it simply AMAZES me that so many of the members here will climb up on their own mountaintop and SCREAM, RANT, and RAVE about how unfairly they are being treated by society for their views, yet think nothing of gang bashing anyone with ideas and beliefs a degree or two off kilter with their own.

As for the so called Homophobia, the more this line of thinking is associated with the Party, the more damage it does to the opportunity of electing public officials who represent our other core ideas. The Mass Courts and the Mayor of San Fran did more HARM to your cause than any of the bible belt preachers. The MAJORITY of the public do NOT want to see PUBLIC OFFICIALS flaunting the law, making their own law, and pushing your agenda down their throats. That is a fact. Maybe it's wrong, but it still remains a fact.

I've been registered as an Independent for the past 20 or so years, had grown disillusioned with what I saw going on with this administration and came here fore= enlightenment. Rather than feeling welcomed to this Party, I feel like a fucking outsider because I have no genetic heritage to Abbie Hoffman, Bobby Seals or Noam Chomsky.

When I got here I thought that I'd find the same Democratic ideals that my parents had while I was growing up. Instead I find a bunch of bitter, hate filled, agenda pushing, and intolerant people flexing their keyboards.

You may not like what I have to say, but at least take a look at what you and others here project. In real life we could probably share a coffee and have a great discussion, but here, I often find myself shaking my head in dispelief of what I read.
I believe I would be considered more "middle America" than most of you and I find the intolerance, paranoia, and the ineveitible response of "if you don't like it go be a Republican" to be offensive and totally counterproductive.

There are many folks here whose opinions I respect, and whose writings have given me hope and a reason to change a personal viewpoint.

On the other hand there is a strong fringe element here, who nobody seems to dare stand up to or offer any challenge to (or if they do, their existence here is quickly squashed) who are a REAL DETRIMENT to what I know as the Democratic Party.

Enough out of me.
If I get banned, so be it, but folks it needed to be said.

I'm tired of having the other guys in control of the government under which we all must live so that a small group can feel loved and important.



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Azure Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Bravo. If you get banned for saying that, ban me too.
Anyone else have the courage to sign on and stand up for what you believe?
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chimp chump Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Sound practical observations
"The Mass Courts and the Mayor of San Fran did more HARM to your cause than any of the bible belt preachers. The MAJORITY of the public do NOT want to see PUBLIC OFFICIALS flaunting the law, making their own law, and pushing your agenda down their throats. That is a fact. Maybe it's wrong, but it still remains a fact."

I think the passage of the gay marriage bans reflected the fear that the GOP exploited that the Massachussetts supreme court decision would eventually be imposed on every state via the full faith and credit clause which requires states to recognize the laws of other states.

I'd bet money the MA Supremes would have waited a year to act on gay marriage if they had it to do over again.

I'm not sure it defeated Kerry. But it couldn't have helped him more than 0.5% in getting new votes. And it just had to cost him some votes in some states. Maybe not the margin of victory. But Democrats must have lost more votes than they gained on it or stand to gain in the next few elections.

Maybe voters will soften up on this issue and Democrats can find a charismatic leader who can articulate a positive message on this issue and capture a consensus for a more liberal position on gay marriage. But no way could that have happened this election. Probably not in two years either. I think not even in '08 but I could be wrong. So much depends on the candidate, their personal appeal and who the other guys run, whether a compelling news story or court case involving the issue is widely reported that might sway the voters.

For so many years, abortion rights and gay rights and gun control played pretty well with voters and excluded Republicans from office in many states. Now the voters have turned a bit fickle because they don't care as much about abortion, they like their guns (CCW in 37 states) and, while they favor anti-discrimination laws to protect gays, they still think of marriage as one-man-one-woman-one-lifetime. And they see the purpose of government's interest in marriage is to provide the most stable environment for childrearing.

Democrats didn't complain when these issues worked in their favor. But if they're taking the issues further than the voters wish to go right now or the voters have changed their minds on some of these former Democratic strong points, then Democrats will have to change too or be prepared to wait out the upcoming elections in minority party status.

When discussing the gay marriage issue, we need to remember that civil rights for blacks weren't achieved overnight either. First we had Brown vs. Board of Education and it began the process of moving toward fuller civil rights for blacks. And time was needed to educate people and help them see the injustices involved, particularly for blacks in teh South.

Most wars are not won in a single battle.

I liked your comments about the need for Democrats to be a strong party. George Mitchell, among others, seems to recognize in recent days that Democrats are in danger of becoming a regional party that can only appeal to California and New York and New England. And that is not a national party.

I would hope George Mitchell wouldn't get banned from DU. But I don't agree and I don't think Mitchell would agree with Clinton that Kerry should have supported the gay marriage bans because it's not clear that that alone would have won the election for Kerry.
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jukes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
32. education
not exclusion.

gays are good people & the public needs to learn his.

donate to the ACLU & the Southern Poverty Law Center.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
33. We needed to take the gay marriage issue head on
Not hide from it, and treat the issue like like it was our deformed bastard children who we lock in the closet until the guests leave.

We needed to explain it as a civil rights issue. We had a candidate who did just that, but he was shut out.

Maybe we'll learn next time.
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chimp chump Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. sometimes, it takes time
We didn't win civil rights for blacks in one election. It took fair-minded people from both parties to defeat the Dixiecrats and the Klan and Jim Crow.

Gays have made a lot of progress. Whatever the merits of gay marriage, I think we are forced to conclude that we were going faster than the voters wanted.

It's a shame the MA Supremes acted so precipitously and handed this issue to the GOP. At the very least, they should have waited out the election before acting.

One of the things we need to consider is how many Democrats voted for these gay marriage bans, especially among evangelical blacks.

I think many of these votes weren't as much against gay marriage as they were against having to share the pool of children available for adoption. It has to be a significant factor.
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