Who else here was worried about the Fundie turnout?

[PlanetBev]

I knew Rove was talking about this three years ago and I think we all knew they were registering Thumpers by the hundreds of thousands. I woke up on voting day and wondered who would turn out the most voters, us or them.

[Awsi Dooger]

1. Me; Republican GOTV was by far my biggest concern all year

Along with Kerry's likeability gap, and if he could connect with white women.

I read online accounts for 3+ years that the GOP was emphasizing and refining it's registration and turnout machine. First tested in the losing 2001 gov races but improved significantly in the 2002 midterm and 2003 gov races. We had their ass kicked in GOTV in '98 and '00, but all it got us was one small unexpected gain in '98 and a temporary 5 seat senate pickup in 2000.

I emphasized my concern in several posts, but never initiated a thread regarding Republican GOTV. It would have been met with the same furious denial as my thread that our registration drives were overrated; the election would be decided by preference; no hidden bailout corps. It's better to be a cheerleader round here, obviously not my style. When we are registering the young and they are emphasizing older rural voters, they are a big favorite to get a high perentage to the polls.

So how do we match them? Superior candidates and more states in play. Those are the only curealls I'm aware of.

[fujiyama]

6. I remember your thread

and while I didn't attack you, I still was in denial and found the post "gloom and doom" (even though I knew what you were saying was the truth). At the back of my mind though I worried it would be like '02.

The magnitude of the loss is still difficult to comprehend.

[Awsi Dooger]

9. You're always fair and well reasoned

In fact, I'm sorry I didn't respond to one of your threads yesterday, that even the so-called blue states let us down in some respects. I forgot to go back to it when one of these Diebold threads pissed me off.

In a couple of weeks I'll update my state by state partisanship chart, once the absentee and provisional ballots are counted and the final numbers available.

Look, if we were in an upward spiral I would be posting that stuff. There are some positive indications, like women a slowly increasing majority of the voting block (now 54%), a gently increasing percentage of single people (about 2% shift since 2000); singles normally vote Democratic, a lesser percentage of gun owning households (41% compared to 48% in 2000), with people who don't own guns voting big for Democrats.

9/11 really screwed us, in terms of party ID and therefore 2002 and 2004. But you know what, I'm not sure that wouldn't have held up if Gore had won. No doubt he and Clinton would have been blamed and crucified.

[TheDonkey]

2. It's a shame so many bigots live out there and are energized by their

hate and fear of gays and womens' rights

[m berst]

3. suspicious here

I am close to the evangelical community, and I have seen no evidence of huge increases in membership or increased political action. Notr saying that it hasn't happened, but I am veru doubtful that it could without there being any signs of it. Quite the contrary, over the last two years I have seen a growing number of evangelicals begin to question the political alliance between their faith and the Bush regime. Likewise, conservative Catholics I know are more and nmore unhappy with the war and with the corruption in the Bush admin.

I am beginning to believe that this supposed increase in "fundie" voters is a smoke screen for phantom votes. How is is that these supposed increases in membership in churches just happen to be in critical counties in swing states?

on edit - spelling

[Awsi Dooger]

4. In the national exit polls, I can't find any evidence

Rural voting is down as a percentage of the vote since 2000, anywhere from 3 to 7% depending on how many choices you give people to describe where they live. The 23% who described themselves as being rural in 2000 actually voted in higher percentage for Bush (59-37) than the 16% rural voters this year (59-40). Likewise, churchgoing looks almost identical to 2000. The percentage who attend weekly or more than that is still 42%, and never attend church went from 14% to 15%.

It's amazing how consistent the voting patterns are among churchgoers, five options: more often than weekly, weekly, monthly, seldom, never. Each category shifted about 1% this year from 2000, the first three moving 1% toward Bush, favoring him by a minimum of 57-40, with seldom and never 1% more toward Kerry than they were in favor of Gore, never at 62-36 for Kerry.

People report going to church seldom or never at the same 42% level as those who attend weekly or more often than that.

[KharmaTrain]

8. How About The Mobilization Effort

I was noticing a lot of activity going on in Christian radio in the run-up to the election...really hammering home themes like "sanctity of marriage" and "protection of the unborn" a lot...almost subliminally.

Another thing I noted was the timing of Rehnquist's illness...it came out on a Friday afternoon...just in time as pastors were writing their sermons and the warning flags of Rehnquist's illness (which is serious) was spread all over the Chrisitan airwaves and in many churches.

A couple observations...first is that the Rove move was an on-going one...that had been set into motion years ago as opposed to the Democratic GOTV efforts that really didn't kick into gear until last Spring. The appearance was there were more Democrats registering, but when the final numbers came out just before the election, the numbers were just about even.

The election day game was turn out. Rove got the fundies charged up and to the polls. Our folks decided someone else would do the job for them or had other things to do than to vote...or, sadly, we truly are a minority.

[m berst]

12. true

There was a get out the vote movement in the churshes, but no more so than there was in 96 or 2000. In 2000 people were VERY motivated because of Clinton.

It could be that churches got out the vote more than they did in 2000, but I haven't seen evidence of that. What I HAVE seen evidence of, is a lot more unexplained irregularities in results when compared to 2000.

I would urge caution in analyzing why this election turned out the way it did, because that is a tacit acceptance that it DID in fact turn out the way it did, and I have much more doubt about that looking at the 2004 results then I do looking at the 2000 results.

The RNC is heavily pushing this "we got the Christian vote out" theme. That alone makes me suspicious. Has everyone here forgotten the hundreds and hundreds of blatant lies from the RNC and the Bush campaign over the last 5 years?

Has everyone forgotten "we won't let them steal another one?" Do you think that they were less motivated this time? Less organized? Suddenly more honest than they used to be?

I want to hear the conspiracy theories about how a group that stole one election suddenly cleaned up their act and are now above reproach or suspicion.

[KharmaTrain]

13. I Understand The Suspicions

I followed Bev Harris and the Diebold/BBV stories here all year long and it didn't pass over me how the two states with the worst problems on Tuesday were Ohio & Florida. Definitely this should be investigated, but truthfully, what good does it do now than just create more acrimony.

I was really encouraged when the folks tossed out Terresa LaPore and now the fine folks in Florida need to rise up against the Secretary of State & various state house & senate offices that would ensure Jebbie and his cabal can't mess with elections. The same goes for Blackwell in Ohio. To ensure this doesn't happen in the future, we need to control the machines and the way to do that is to field quality candidates that will win elections to clean up state & local government.

What sticks in many of our throats here is the popular vote margin. It's just too big and widespread. If we saw a big differential in the polls (not the exit ones...put those away for now) and the final results (which we still don't have yet) then it's time to scream loudly and hope someone listens. Right now there's no evidence...no witnesses to actual stealing or tampering.

Don't discount Rove's operation....what I think you're hearing is a big victory lap. I'd suggest you dial around to the Christian radio stations and listen to what they're preaching. Tonight I heard one who thanked the lord for * mandate and how now all of our prayers will be answered. Dare we guess what those were?

[m berst]

14. ok

Bev Harris is not relevant to this that I can see.

"...what good does it do now than just create more acrimony."

More acrimony? What difference does it make? I don't understand you here. Dmeocracy itself is at stake if we allow elections to be tampered with. That is the whole ball game. Cave in on this, and you lose everything.

"What sticks in many of our throats here is the popular vote margin."

Not so. We can't know what the popular vote margin is if we don't have an accurate count of the votes. Never mind what sticks in your craw. I am a lot more concerned about the elections being rigged than I am about who won. Shouldn't everyone be? Again I cannot follow what you mean here.

I find the rest of your post to be defeatist and misleading.

I don't mean to be harsh, and perhaps you are depressed or discouraged.

It is absolutely essential that we demand the truth, and that fraud in this election does not go unchallenged, no matter how anyone feels.

[Sugarbleus]

5. I WAS!! As a former Evagelical devotee...I have been watching

this insidious movement for months and months. It wasn't until Bush got elected, though, that I did some research. I actually found some nifty sites from posters right here in DU. What I found out about this 'movement' (aside from their endtimes paranoia) is how they organize, what they were up to to gain this win FOR YEARRRRRRRRS!...and, sadly, HOW FALSE THIS belief system is. It has HIJACKED pure Christianity since DECADES ago...right under your/my nose. People who have no affiliation with these types or atheist didn't understand this phenom. I DO

This is a HORRIBLE movement and it's very very dangerous for the long haul.

Here is a piece from a site I frequent. It's a "review" of this election result. READ IT!

November 3, 2004 - ELECTION ANALYSIS
Authored by: Sean Mayfield, Antipas

America has spoken… and the message sent by the country in yesterday’s election is very significant. Americans weighed in with an incredible vote of confidence for Bush and the GOP though the country finds itself in the midst of a stagnant economy, and faced with an ever-worsening situation in the Iraqi Theatre of the ubiquitous war on terror.

On this day the great majority of Democrats, including rank and file, media people, and party leaders… find themselves asking how this could happen. Early exit polling yesterday showed Kerry coming out of the gate strong in most areas. The strength of his early support had rumors flying among the media set that Kerry was going to wrap things up shortly after the closing of the west coast polls. What transpired was of course a radically different ending for the Kerry campaign.

Reports of record voter turnout had those on the left, once again including those within the media, thinking the swell of participants were there to end the Bush presidency and that they had been marshaled due to extraordinary efforts to get out the vote among students and minorities sympathetic to the Democratic cause. This of course was also not the case. Democratic operatives felt extremely confident that their message of fixing the economy and straightening out the Iraqi situation would bring a great mass of swing voters over to their side. Polls in recent weeks showed the candidates in a virtual dead heat. Yet when the dust settled today George Bush won the popular vote by over 3 million and in the process garnered fifty-one percent of the voting electorate. Ohio put him over the top in the Electoral College and now the US along with the rest of the world is assured of four more years for the Bush Whitehouse.

In the weeks to follow we’ll find out if there were voting irregularities in election 2004. We will learn to one degree or another whether concerns of rigged voting totals via computerized voting machines turned out to be true. Over the past year I have touched upon this subject numerous times and there are early indicators, which may lead to actual evidence of fraud. However, at this point all such talk is speculation. Yet, what is not speculation is that the overwhelming majority of those who voted for George Bush did so for a reason, which seems alien to those on the left.

Those voting for Bush cited “moral issues” as their primary concern. A Democratic party, which embraces multiculturalism, homosexual rights, and abortion on demand, can never hope to capture even a fleeting allegiance from those whose primary voting concerns rest on issues of morality. It was the issue of morality more than anything else that was responsible for record voter turnout, especially in swing states like Iowa, New Mexico, Florida, and of course Ohio. While most on the left still remain oblivious to the full ramifications of this, there are a few who at this late hour finally see the light.

James Carville, providing analysis for CNN’s coverage last night, was the first Democrat that I saw fully realize what was going on. As the totals began to turn against Kerry in West Virginia, Florida, and Ohio, a dejected Carville noted that Democrats had terribly missed the mark on the importance of moral issues to most Americans. He went further on and noted that until they get in line with most Americans on this matter their future was in real jeopardy. In the hours that followed and as the news got worse for the Democrats a few more analysts saw what Carville had seen hours earlier, yet it was already too late… and it may be altogether too late.

Those voting on moral issues are those we at Antipas Ministries have been writing about for some years now. They are of course evangelical Christians. In this election they voted in numbers never before seen and in doing so fully revealed themselves as THE MOST POWERFUL FORCE IN AMERICAN POLITICS. The great danger for the United States and the world is that this group practices what can only be described as a virulent strain of Christianity… one which uses the name of Christ as justification for taking literal dominion over first the United States and next the world. Issues like war don’t frighten them; instead they relish war… for a “just cause.” And to them no cause is more just than defeating the enemies of God (their version of God). Their goal is to purge the US of any form of immorality (as they judge it), including homosexuality, abortion, and sexual promiscuity. In doing so they plan to destroy all accommodation towards faiths whose teachings are not in line with their view of God, His Laws, Jesus Christ, and their responsibility to take dominion over the earth to usher in His kingdom.

The Left has no understanding of such things… and as such they stand no chance of ever capturing the hearts and minds of “that great mass of people in the middle.” Another theme being bandied about is the idea of uniting the country… how Kerry wanted to do it and how in victory, Bush must do it. Well I just do not see it happening the way most people do. The politicized form of Christianity, which delivered Bush four more years has no plans to mend fences with folks they deem enemies of the cross. They entertain no thoughts of conciliation with those whom they feel must be won over to their theology and ideology or else must eventually be eliminated.

So what happens now? Bush has a mandate as does his party. The American Church feels it has a mandate too. The thin veil still separating church and state within the US will not long be with us. Christian political efforts geared towards merely fending off the advances of secular humanism will now turn into an outright offensive against them. The Patriot Act will not be repealed and instead more draconian measures meant to restrict liberties are on the way. As I write this US warplanes are bombing Fallujah mercilessly and plans are being made to escalate America’s use of firepower throughout Iraq in order to quell the Iraqi resistance. Plans are also being made to widen the theatre if necessary. All this is to be done under the banner of Christian government.

Election 2004 was truly a spiritual referendum for the US. In record numbers American Christians testified with their votes that they not only endorse, but also are willing participants in the effort to take dominion over the US and the world for the cause of Christ. Yet what they are participating in is not the cause of Christ, but instead that of the god of this world. The missing piece to the puzzle that is Babylon the Great has always been for that fallen form of Christianity to not just emerge, but also finally take complete control of not just the Church, but the reigns of power within the US. The transformation from golden cup to one of filthiness is almost complete. Babylon the Great in its totality is now readying to take center stage.

[m berst]

7. Indeed

I have been following the Dominionist movement for 15 years now and it is a potent and very real danger to our country.

As you say, it has been building for 20 or so years. The point that I am making is that there has not been an increase between 2000 and 2004 that would explain this year's election results that I have seen.

This idea that Dominionism is on a dramatic upswing over the last couple of years doesn't agree with my personal observations nor with conversations I have ben having with evangelicals. The Clinton years were the salad years for recruitment and that peaked when Bush stole the first election. Since then I see a lot more questioning by evangelicals and a lot more reflection then I did in the Clinton years.

I think that evangelical Christianity is being credited for this election result by Bush and co. because it panders to and flatters them, because it suggests a mandate they want to use that isn't there, and because it is a fairy tale that Dems are likely to believe and are ill-equipped and ill-informed for the most part to challenge.

[Sugarbleus]

11. You've explained your understanding very well

and I appreciate your experiences with friendly evangelicals. That is GREAT news that some are having reservations and questioning what the hell is going on.........I questioned a few years ago and ran away from that mindset PDQ.

I understand that Bush wants his supporters to THINK he is a Godly man and that his faith based ideals are what brought out the masses: 'The people know where I stand'.... But it doesn't negate the fact that his false spirituality has drawn MILLIONS of people just on that perception alone. Trouble is, these types of supporters don't realize they've been punked.

This "Moral Values" platform is crossing sectarian lines now. We've got Catholics and Jews and Muslims and beer drinking, never go to church, good 'ole boys buying into this Moral Values thing today--not just evangelical protestants.

It's based on a homophobic, racist,misogynistic, nationalistic, bellicose--kill them before they kill us, every man for himself, poverty=laziness, the commies are coming, liberals killed god FRENZY.

There's no question about "tricks" having been played in terms of the election process. But the mindset I describe is still real.

Respectfully, SB

[leftofthedial]

10. I worry about those wack jobs waking up every morning

they are zombies, like in Night of the Living Dead, sucking the life out of our planet.

Of course I was worried about them turning out. I just didn't expect their turnout, the drastically increased magnitude of repuke fraud, the idiot non-fundy vote, and the lingering apathy of what should have been key progressive voting blocs to combine into a "win" for the little bushturd.