The Massachusetts SC &Gavin Newsom set back gay rights for years

[fujiyama]

The Massachusetts ruling was a bad idea.

Here's why. The Supreme Court should never have told the state that what is normally a religious institution, should be implemented for all. If the state had declared that the status should be equal rights and benefits similar to that of Vermont it would have had less of an impact nationwide.

Do I personally have a problem with gay marriage? Hell no. I think gays and lesbians should have all the same rights as heterosecual c couples. I also don't have any personal definition of marriage defining it between just a man and a woman.

As for Newsom, I don't know much about him, but his whole thing seemed like a stunt. The timing was not good.

We knew Rove had these issues out there. Many of the state ballot initiatives regarding gay marriage were in response to the Massachusetts SC ruling. Since the decision had been left up to the states, people freaked out that "judicial activist judges" would redifine marriage. Personally I'm surprised it got so many people to the polls. I myself agree with a person at TNR that said before the election it seemed like background noise and that the issue had died down to some extent.

Unfortunately I was wrong. Homophobia is much more mainstream than I would have imagined.

The democratic party should not give up its support for equal rights for gays and lesbians. We were right to reject the gay marriage amendment that Bush proposed.

However at the same time, gay marriage itself is in the near term absolutely impossible. Civil unions may be workable, but even that is a longshot in many states. While the ruling in MA may have been good for gay and lesbian couples in that state, it may be argued that it caused a backlash in many other states. For example, the initiative passed in the state of MI is one of the most restrictive - and it may ban civil unions as well.

The issue has seemingly bothered so many in what is part of the democratic base as well. I was speaking to a friend of mine that lives in Detroit. He's African American and voted straight democratic. He despises Bush.

However, when it came to Proposal 2, he just said "Yeah I voted for it. Fuck those f@ggots" Unfortunately this is probably the attitude of many new Hispanic immigrants as well. Many are strong Catholics and are socially conservative and Kerry got a lower % of them than Gore did. My guess is that gay marriage has had a bigger impact than all the years we've been dealing with abortion.

The sad thing is it didn't even surprise me. This was probably view of so many. The sad thing is my state probably had the second lowest % for passing the initiative (~60%, second to probably Oregon, where it also passed), compared to as high as 80% for Mississippi.

[fujiyama]

1. .

[T Town Jake]

2. I agree completely. That, and gun control. The fanatics really cost us..

..BIG this time.

[Bluebear]

3. Gay Marriage Backlash Not Felt in Massachusetts

You said "While the ruling in MA may have been good for gay and lesbian couples in that state, it may be argued that it caused a backlash in many other states."

So who should have been the first state to 'fall'. And when? Massachusetts also was one of the first states to recognize interracial marriages. Should they have waited until Alabama was ready?

===

BOSTON - The national Election Day backlash against gay marriage never reached the state blamed for triggering it: Every Massachusetts lawmaker on the ballot who supported gay rights won another term in the Legislature.


The election outcome, combined with the ascendancy of a new state House speaker who supports gay rights, has left in doubt the fate of a proposed constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in Massachusetts.

The amendment, which would also legalize civil unions, won first-round approval from lawmakers earlier this year. It must be approved again by the newly elected 200-member Legislature before it can be submitted to the voters for ratification in November 2006.

"I think we are in a far, far better position than ever before," said Josh Friedes, spokesman for the Massachusetts Freedom to Marry Coalition. "The electorate showed that it was incredibly tolerant."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041104/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage_massachusetts_1

[Bluebear]

4. By the way, is the guy who said "Fuck those faggots" still your friend?

[Dookus]

5. I disagree

these major social changes are never quick and easy. The IDEA was raised for the first time for most Americans. Yes, the bigots reacted - they always do.

But the fact is, MORE Americans today support gay marriage than at any time in history. This bigotry will, some day, be recognized for what it is.

[Lexingtonian]

6. I don't agree

I don't think the issues mattered very much individually. Gay marriage was a small piece among many for such people. They simply believe the Divine Order of the world that they were taught as children is coming apart and they had to vote for what they believe is its preservation. They're voting against the Modern world in its many forms. As Osama, as Saddam, as Arafat, as Kim Il Jong, as the end of Chosen Peoples (as they imagine themselves to be), as the increasing numbers of blacks/Latinos/Asians, as the end of white privilege and agrarian and industrial jobs, as the 'global market', as the presence of Jews and Liberals and Atheists and Intellectuals and Artists and Gays and Abortion On Demand. No, it makes no real sense whatsoever, but it was perfectly exploitable in its escapism from reality.

Most gay couples that intend to stay together have their own kinds of rituals and ceremonies, and there are contractual legal arrangements for a number of the difficulties they face as couples even absent civil unions. Coping has always been necessary. As for legal civil unions, in practice they will have to be treated as all-but-in-name marriages fairly quickly or will tie up the courts to no end until it happens.

For Massachusetts, I leave the commentary to thise two people:

The time is always right to do what is right. - MLK Jr.
Justice delayed is justice denied. - William Gladstone

For the rest of the country, I think we will see more gay marriage legalization in '05 and '06. To some degree as a kind of stick in the eye if/when Congress gets too uppity toward the Blue States.

As for gay marriage banning state amendments and such, ultimately there will be a reckoning against the 14th Amendment. It's quite possible that the courts will uphold the ban on marriages instate, but DoMA and the ban of recognition of gay marriages in other states are not sustainable. The courts can only delay admitting the obvious.

[tedzbear]

7. fujiyama? Hmmmmmmmmm...

Could you be one of those straight, hypocritical minorities of race who trash us gays, forgeting that you are only one rung up the ladder when it comes to the American bigot's priorities?


If you are, better change your board name so you won't be so obvious.

[fujiyama]

8. No I am not. I just feel that those two events

have in fact set back the movement for equal rights around the country. While those events were good for a small number of people (perhaps the residents of MA), in the long term it may actually be bad for gays and lesbians around the country. I feel that if the s. court had ruled in favor of civil unions (but not explicitly in favor of gay marriage) then this wouldn't have caused the apparent nationwide backlash it caused.

The simple fact is that this election was a rejection of tolerance. The fact that 11/11 of these disgusting amendments passed, including several states that went blue (OR and MI are two) disturbs me a great deal. I am a minority. I am straight. But I too have no desire to be governed by theocratic fascists. Discimination against people because of their sexual orientation is not something the democrats should co opt.

But the language and tactics we use will determine whether these values become mainstream or not.

[UdoKier]

9. Um... the judges in Mass. were REPUBLICAN.

And the minute they passed the ruling, I felt that they did so to give Rove a bit more of his beloved wedges.

And I'm sure some gays were grateful to the judges and went and voted republican because of them. I hope most saw their real motivation.

But to those who blame gays for this - you're assholes.

Blame Rove first and foremost, and maybe to a degree even Newsom and the judges, but taking this out on gays is BULLSHIT.

[fujiyama]

10. I never blamed gays

I don't know what gave that impression. I'm as disturbed and disgusted by everyone else that voted for these amendments.