Forget the "Dumb Okies" ?????

[DWolper]

How many threads have I read now to forget the "Red States"....this is a prescription for disaster for our party. Example:

In another thread, I read of disdain for the "Dumb Okies" worried about "terrorists bombing their manure." It is just this type of attitude toward our heartland that will keep us from winning elections. A distorted perception and viewing the heartland as "foreign territory" will NOT win elections.

Our view of the heartland is so cliché. I worked on a documentary on the OKC bombing and spent three weeks in Oklahoma City. I found a vibrant city of a million people, skyscrapers, freeways everywhere, upscale restaurants, a thriving entertainment district, bottom line: I found Oklahoma City to be a bustling midwestern metropolis. Not the "dumb Okie" image I saw portrayed in several threads.. I went to Tulsa a couple of years back and found much (albeit smaller) the same thing. I found a couple of pictures on the internet....DUers....look closely at them....THIS is the America we must win over - not a "Dumb Okie" worried about his "manure" but people who live much like WE DO (I am on the West Coast). We keep this backward image at our own peril. THESE are the two major cities of the "Dumb Okies".....



Oklahoma City



Tulsa

Look like cow towns to you? Multiply this image by 35 or so and you have the cities of the heartland. We MUST begin to see America for what it is and not as we imagine it from "old west" stories or our own ignorant perceptions. These states CAN BE won, but not until we eliminate the bigotry of thinking it's all hicks, religious nuts, etc. This is not minor. The perception of "Red States" among many on DU is not based on reality. That must change - so we can win.

[Bluebear]

1. Fair enough. Interestingly only OK and Neb. had not one county vote blue

Just sayin'.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Actually...

Oklahoma did have ONE county go "Blue." I was shocked as I am in Oklahoma!

ON EDIT: OOOPS....I was looking at the results election night and was suprised to see a blue county in OKla-HELL-Ma...but I guess that changed...my bad!...and my sad!

[drhilarius]

2. I stand by my earlier statement...

I'm angry. What? I'm supposed to apologize for that. Sorry. There. But last time I checked a plane flew into my backyard, not Tulsa's. As for OK.C., one of their own homegrown whackjobs pulled that one off, that's why I'm scared of them, too.

What position do you advocate? You want us to be more like them? OK, I'll tell my gay friends and their partners that I'll have to abandon them so some people in Oklahoma will like me. I guess I'll just have to tolerate the fact that my party will have to ignore me, an Atheist, because I want some "Christians" to like us. Shall I keep compromising? Am I a republican yet?

What you suggest, I assume, is a gradually process of education through which those in mid-western states will come to realize that religious issues are merely diversions from real economic needs. Right? Alright, it'll take about a generation to undo the damage the GOP has done out there. Think we have the time?

If there are progressives out there, then they need to skedaddle.

Tulsa and Oklahoma city look like beautiful, cosmopolitan cities, it's just too bad they're surrounded by Oklahoma.

[DWolper]

3. Missed my point

It's not about becoming like them, or getting "them" to like "us"...it's about understanding that there is more to the Red States than the image we carry around. That image keeps us from --- for lack of a better phrase --- taking them seriously. Tuesday told us that we can no longer sling names and dismiss 2/3 of the continental United States and stand behind pompous talk of "Dumb Okies"..."Effin South"...and CONTINUE TO LOSE ELECTIONS! Elections are won on the ground. Our politics can't be from the ivory towers.

[drhilarius]

6. Fine. I'll stop calling them names..

And I did take them seriously. I saw that swath of red in 2000. I'm terrified that they elected Coburn. I don't underestimate them. I take them very seriously as a threat to my way of life.

But let me ask you this? Are two Oklahomans at free republic sitting at their computer right now having the following conversation:

1: Maybe we should stop calling them "liberal faggots" and "traitors" and "unamerican terrorists". I think if we just got to them one at a time and persuaded them, then we could get them over to our side.
2: I think a systematic program of voter education could really persuade them. It might take a while, but it's worth it.

I assure you, they're not. They want to destroy us, crush us. Tuesday was a victory for "them", we are their other.

And before you say that I shouldn't use FR as a standard of ethical conduct, believe me I know. But they didn't kick our ass by taking the high road, by clutching their idealism.

I'm in full on survival mode. My idealism failed me. Now it's time for a real, material solution. I admire your determination to win a ground war, winning hearts and minds as it were, but there just isn't the time.

[geek tragedy]

17. Amen. Red America HATES Blue America.

There are good people who have the misfortune to be trapped behind enemy lines. But that doesn't change the fact that we are facing a blitzkrieg of hatred from the rest of Murika.

[okieinpain]

74. yes, you're right. they like for dirt to be kept behind doors.

I mean less face it, the fundies are just as freaky as any hollywood actor you could find. they have kinky sex, do drugs (usually alcohol, or prescriptions) just like anybody you would happen to see on tv.

I know because I live in a fundie state, they hate the lottery, but damn near every church has a bingo night. it's all bullsh**, that's the way they like it, pretend christian's. to get this crowd we need a pretend president.

have you guy's seen the newsweek article, they are saying that clinton advised kerry to support the local ban's on gays, and kerry rejected the suggestion. hmmmmmm!

"Clinton Advice Spurned. Looking for a way to pick up swing voters in the Red States, former President Bill Clinton, in a phone call with Kerry, urged the Senator to back local bans on gay marriage. Kerry respectfully listened, then told his aides, "I'm not going to ever do that."

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041104/nyth186_1.html

[demwing]

35. They are not strategizing now

Because their strategies were developed over the last 40 years. do you think the red slash of conservative voters just popped up over night?

Hell.No.

They may be years ahead of us, but we can start today, be glad of small victories at the loacal and statehouse levels, and in 20 years you'll see a vast Democratic infrastructure of Governor, Senators, and House Reps

[rockydem]

9. I grew up in a solid red state - it's still my home base

And trust me - those fundies are what *is* wrong with America. It's good to make fun of them. Eventually more moderate red staters will wake up to these wierdos in their midsts.

I'm not talking all born-agains, just the Dominionist extremists.

[Sterling]

77. THEY WILL NEVER LIKE US> Jesus stop being such cowards.

They HATE HATE HATE people in the blue states. I spend 20 years there. I know. They are jealous and afraid of all the fags and weirdo's and smarty pants commies on the coast. They would love nothing more than to rub our faces in their kind of "values".

I had a fucked up sense of "values" when I lived there. It was not until I got away from that place that I learned that

A: Gay people are cool and make good friends
B: Blacks are not lazy and poor because they deserve it.
C: not everyone convicted of a crime had a fair trial

I learned this in spite of the RW AM radio that dominates the airwaves even on the coasts. I learned this from the enlightened educated people I met after I left OK. Sometimes I learned it the hard way by expressing an ignorant viewpoint that I had to reconsider in the context of my new surroundings.

No we don't need to convince THEM to like us. We need to help them understand their "values" are shameful and misguided.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. OKC and Tulsa

OKC is one of the UGLIEST cities I have EVER been to! I live in Oklahoma and lived in OKC, and it is UGLY! Tulsa..however, is a beautiful city. I am talking aesthetics, not people or anything else. I have all kinds of opinions on that! :)

[Nicole]

14. Score one for the "dumb okie"

drhilarious wrote
"As for OK.C., one of their own homegrown whackjobs pulled that one off, that's why I'm scared of them, too.


McVeigh grew up in upstate New York, he was NOT one of Oklahoma's homegrown whackjobs.


Obviously Oklahoma isn't the only state to have dumb people residing within it's borders.:eyes:

[drhilarius]

42. oops, caught me. I was blinded by my passion...

a well deserved touche.

[SoCalDem]

49. He spent "formative time" and did training in Kansas..OK's neighbor

and he was a product of the volunteer army..:scared:

[Sterling]

79. Yes but the point remains, he was a dumb ass redneck, yes they have those

In upstate New York. It was a RWer that thought the same shit they think about US.

They are in very little danger of being attacked by Osama/Bush.

It's ironic that even though they hate us they still feel left out and want in on the excitement of living here even if that excitement is a chance of getting killed horribly.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

7. Lovely cities. Too bad they're surrounded by Oklahomans.

There are Dems inside them, of course, but your typical Oklahoman is a rightwing extremist.

Oklahoma is further to the right than Freeperville.

Look at their Senators. Tom Coburn? Any state that elects Tom Coburn over a conservative Democrat deserves all of the insults it gets.

[rockydem]

8. Hey in those bigger cites are the Okie Dems

They are already on our side. Even in the reddest of the states there are still plenty of Democrats.

I think it's perfectly fine to give the ignorant anti-science, anti-reason fundy crowd some tough love ribbing. You ever visit FR? They do it to us all the time too.

For long-term insight into changing the Zeitgiest the must read book is "What's the Matter with Kansas?" It's written by a native Kansan - it's full of interesting history.

[fujiyama]

10. No offense, but Oklahoma can go F*ck itself

That state is completely gone. If the state can vote for a lunatic like Coburn it's getting what it deserves.

I hope the state's unemployment rate skyrockets. I don't have even the slightest bit of sympathy for the state.

[Name removed]

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[fujiyama]

20. Sorry

It was too broad a generalization. I actually do feel bad for those 500k voters in OK.

I'm still angry. I'm also pissed that the senate is tilted so out of whack and is filled with idiots like Coburn and DeMint.

[T Town Jake]

25. Apology accepted, and I apologize also for my harsh language...

...I'm just very frustrated about the whole situation, and am tired of being "blamed" for things I had nothing to do with because of the happenstance of where I live.

[RummyTheDummy]

58. Real intelligent comment

How bout this, Michigan can go fuck itself. Where does that get us? What a stupid, freeper level argument. This is DU, I would expect more. Perhaps I was wrong.

And incedentally, Oklahoma's economy is in a helluva lot better shape than Michigan's. But whatever, we're just a bunch of dumb rubes.

[Nicole]

11. Thank you DWolper!

It's nice to know not everyone thinks we are "dumb okies"

I donated a month's wages to Kerry's campaign. Plus I spent many hours trying to get his message out.

I wonder how many of "my" party members, who ridicule me here, did the same? Did they put their money or time where their mouth is?

[Behind the Aegis]

31. I donated too!

I am unemployed in OK. Have been for 17 months and I still got money to the campaign! I even sat up night trying to catch the asshat who stole my Kerry sign! After they stole the first one, they never took the second! :) I am glad you donated and campaigned like me! :)

[Sterling]

80. Hey it's not your fault, but lets face it OK sucks

Why pretend it does not. You live in a state that is run by the church and a uber wealthy family of RW extremeists.

I will be back there to visit my family and see my Sooners play in the next few weeks. I love and hate that place. I am sure you can relate.

[moondust]

12. Umm, OK does not have one single blue county in the entire state.

Not even around the cities. See map:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1326012

It doesn't matter what the buildings look like. Trying to "win over" anything in that place would be a complete waste of time and resources. Let it go.

[Sugarbleus]

15. Conservative people in "Red" states are NOT STUPID...but they are

completely BRAINWASHED into this Evangelical/fundamentalist, "selective moral values" MINDSET.

I should add that not ALL of these I speak of are of this mindset, but at least half are (to one degree or another).

THIS IS A FASCIST NEO-CHRISTIAN COUP. Except THEY don't realize it themselves. Most of them do not understand that they've sold their souls to the "Devil" himself!

This "movement" is a virulent strain (I borrow that phrase) of Christianity.

Fighting this mindset is like fighting the mindset of Al Qaeda/radical neo-Isalm<--people willing to die AND KILL for their cause and their interpretation of what "Their God" wants them to do. :scared: LISTEN UP!

[Zuni]

62. They are not stupid and we must remeber that.

They are people too. They have been used by people who don't give two shits about them/

[Sugarbleus]

68. Correct-a-mundo!!

Sad, really...

[DWolper]

16. OK

I wasn't talking about the ribbing, the calling them names, I was talking about the heartland as more than "fly-over country" and that the perception of that part of the country is wrong. I didn't say we have to like their politics! That's my point!! As long as we see them as just fundies who are hicks and unable to EVER vote our way, we will lose. That's an attitude for defeat. We are losing our sensibilities as "one nation" - and THAT is out of the mainstream. I hate to see "I hope their unemployment skyrockets!" and "Fuck them!" and all of the Balkanizing of our land. Then again, I'm sure my 77 years are coming into play here. But damn, I liked it better when we disagreed and went on - certainly not wishing ill-will on fellow Americans. Today there is just too much division based on politics. Let's not forget about all those high forty percent for Bush BLUE states! One nation - and we need to understand each other better.

[geek tragedy]

18. "Just like a Senator from Massachusetts."

Red America launched this war against us. Fuck them and their children.

[DWolper]

23. "Fuck them and their children." Are you serious???

THIS is the grassroots of the party of FDR, John Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, Hubert Humphrey, Paul Simon? THIS is the new grassroots of what's left for a more liberal America? "Fuck them and their children." May the cosmos forgive us.

[rockydem]

26. He might not be

*wink* *wink*

[geek tragedy]

28. I'm no Michael Jackson, if that's what you're implying. Wink wink

[rockydem]

29. I find your hyperbole on this thread just over the top

It's honestly hard to believe.

[geek tragedy]

33. Just wait till the next terrorist incident in a very big blue city.

You can expect comments from Red America along the lines of "Voting for Kerry sure didn't help them, did it?"

[Sterling]

83. No its worse than that, God hates us because of the fags

and what not. So nest Osama/Bush attack on abig city is obviously devine punishment.

[T Town Jake]

64. So do I...it's largely untrue and unfair...but there you are.

...the bitterness some DU'ers seem to have about this lost election has gone beyond the pale, and has been directed towards their nominal friends, as we see here. It's exactly what Karl Rove wanted, in the larger sense, and his strategy seems to be working: I have nothing but contempt for the poster you where replying to at this point, and for good reason.

[geek tragedy]

27. Their children will be home schooled into becoming Jesus freaks just

like their parents.

I don't expect the children of the Taliban to be anything but religious nutjobs. Same thing goes for the typical Oklahoman.

[T Town Jake]

21. Skinner, the Admin of this site, was exploring this exact point..

..in the thread he posted yesterday. Yet still, despite that attempt at wise exploration of our future, the elitist disdain of places like Oklahoma that led directly to the ass-whipping we took on Tuesday continues. It's truly amazing - when will our side ever learn to listen?

[rockydem]

24. I totally agree we need to build our power centers away from

the East Coast. To many of our leaders are insulated on the East Coast. Believe me I come from a red state and I'm a solid Dem and I find some of the snobby liberalsm (like Tina Brown liberalsm, etc.) to be annoying and unhelpful for our cause. People, populist oriented Dems like Wellstone could penetrate these areas. They can frame our issues in moral ways, which is what we must do. We can't fight ideology with five-point plans. We need less policy (we have tons of that) and more values emphasis. More of an explanation why our vision is *right* - Dems like Wellstone can do that. We need to try and shift our party somewhat away from the edges and into the heartland and right into the thick of people's lives.

Just a thought.

[geek tragedy]

30. I loved and admired Senator Wellstone.

But he thrived in an historically liberal state.

He wouldn't have gotten elected dogcatcher in Oklahoma or Mississippi.

[rockydem]

36. Yeah but he also played well in the redder areas of Minn.

Minnesota is mixed bag - they have a pug governor now.

I just think the way he framed the issues is the way our national parties need to frame the issues. Issues-wise our candidates don't have to clones of Wellstone - that wouldn't work. But he spoke the language of values and morals - and it wasn't just talk he believed it. So do I - I want to hear an expression of my values in the national discourse in a more forceful and effective way...

[geek tragedy]

37. He didn't play that well in the redder areas. No Democrat typically does.

[DWolper]

40. Oklahoma Socialists

Before you damn Oklahoma "and their children"...maybe you should remember their Grandfathers. The largest percentage for a leftist presidential candidate IN HISTORY came out of Oklahoma. Eugene Debs and the old Socialist Party had its biggest numbers in OKLAHOMA. Never before - in our nations's HISTORY - has the left been more organized than during those decades in Oklahoma. At one time, there were over 100 weekly and thirty DAILY socialist newspapers published in Oklahoma. If its just in the genes - explain that?
Jim Bissett, Agrarian Socialism in America: Marx, Jefferson, and Jesus in the Oklahoma Countryside, 1904-1920, Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1999 (Red River Books paperback edition 2002) 249pp
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0806131489/qid=1099644404/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8203426-9907266?v=glance&s=books

When Farmers Voted Red: The Gospel of Socialism in the Oklahoma Countryside, 1910-1924 (Contributions in American History)
by Garin Burbank
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0837189039/qid=1099644486/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8203426-9907266?v=glance&s=books

Grass Roots Socialism: Radical Movements in the Southwest, 1895-1943
by James R. Green
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807107735/qid=1099644547/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/002-8203426-9907266?v=glance&s=books

[geek tragedy]

43. So? That's literally history. All that matters is reality.

And the reality is that Oklahoma is rightwing even by Jesusland standards.

Those grandparents produced a monumentally ignorant and illiberal set of grandchildren. And it is those grandchildren whom we must suffer.

[DWolper]

47. That's all

Anyone who so easily dismisses history - I find I have not much to discuss. It is a tragedy.

[geek tragedy]

50. History tells us that Oklahoma has not voted Democratic since the

passage of the Civil Rights Act.

There is absolutely nothing about the history of the people currently living in Oklahoma that indicates they are at all receptive to progressive values.

[5thGenDemocrat]

52. Mr Wolper

I majored in history and am quite aware that both Woody Guthrie and Will Rogers were Oklahomans. At the time those two were alive, Michigan was completely Republican. Thanks to organized labor and G Mennen Williams, we managed to change. Meanwhile, Oklahoma has devolved.
John
If Oklahoma is going to go Democratic ever again, it is up to the Democrats on the ground there to make it happen. We got ours, I suggest they fight and get theirs. It simply isn't my problem.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[QC]

71. "the state as a whole went Dem by just three percent"

Michigan used to be a reliably Democratic state. Seems like the Okies aren't the only ones doing some devolvin'. And look at how red Wisconsin and Minnesota have become.

Beware of hubris, my friend, because in another election or two you might be hearing pompous asses griping about those idiot redstaters in Michigan.

[Sterling]

85. Ive been to both states many times, not much chance of Michi going

the way OKLA has. Not unless there is the kind of logic vacuum that has been created by the fundies in Okla.

We may not always win that state but it will never become a theocracy like Okla has.

[mrbill]

59. monumentally ignorant grandchild of okies checking in.....

Moved to Texas at age one, Oklahoma is still only six miles north, always root for ou in the cotton bowl and consider myself a dual nationality type of guy.

Sorry that you are suffering from the grandchildren of the early populists et al.

Wonder how many of the current republican/american taliban voters were actually born there? How many people have moved to Oklahoma recently from Ohio?

Oklahoma is cool. If someone comes along and talks some real common sense, the people will listen and pay attention. Wasn't yesterday Will Rogers birthday?

The Indians in Oklahoma are smart, looks like they might have blackjack now.

Ruprick now runs around the room banging on the metal pot with a wooden spoon yelling, "Oklahoma> Oklahoma."

[AliceWonderland]

88. Interesting history, thanks

Goes to show how much has changed. Radical and populist movements were strong in some of these states in the past. Ahh, if only things could come full circle...we need those movements again.

But then again, what do I know? I live in a red state. Gasp.

[Cleopatra2a]

19. I live in a small town in Oklahoma, temporarily

It's different out here. My SO is shocked how "controlled" the people are over here, and we're from South Texas - San Antonio. Same guy owns all the restaurants, same committee decides who can open a business here and they control what you watch on TV. I spent 6 months in Oklahoma city. It's okay but would never want to live there again. Food is horrible, Bricktown is boring and their lives revolve around OU football.

[5thGenDemocrat]

22. Right. Tulsa and OKC -- very pretty and cosmopolitan

First, I'm from Saginaw, Michigan. It's a town of 62,000 (down from 98K in 1960 and still dropping). Our most interesting sons were Theodore Roethke, who practically no one's ever heard of and Stevie Wonder, who everyone has. We still take pride in having once been the center of the American lumbering industry, though that trade died out here over a hundred years ago.
Our tallest skyscraper is twelve stories and it's the highest building downtown by some six floors.
We are shop rats. We build steering columns, brake systems and electrical harnesses for GM. Yes, we have our share of hicks and religious nuts, too. Compared to Oklahoma City and Tulsa, I am sure we are the very definition of a tank town.
But, you know, we voted Democratic in the Presidential election just concluded and in the four before that -- city, county and state.
It isn't my job to see Oklahoma (or America) for "what it is." My perception of it is Oklahoma City and Tulsa, however beautiful, are predominantly populated with Bible-thumpers, unreconstructed crackers and other slack-jawed yokels whose interests and whose values are diametrically opposed to mine.
Oklahomans, as a group, seem to care more for Jeezus than they do for their own self-interests. That's fine by me. I haven't been to either of the two cities since 1989 and have absolutely no interest in visiting them or in interacting with the people in them ever again.
It is Terry McAuliffe's job, not mine, to figure out how to get these folks to vote Democratic and neither he nor the party have done squat towards that goal since St Ronnie the Racist had his revolution 24 years ago.
If Oklahoma, et al, and Michigan, et al, must finally belong to two different countries to keep one and all happy, that's cool. Given a choice, I'd bet just as many Michiganians would as soon side with Canada as with Cletus and the Christian Crispies.
I know I would. And I'd rather lose every Presidential election the rest of my life than to change my values and my principles in order to get the votes of a bunch of hicks and hayseeds.
John
If Oklahoma don't like that, don't come to Michigan and I'll damned sure guarantee I'll stay out of the Sooner State.

[T Town Jake]

32. Peddle that sneering sarcasm all you want...

...about Oklahoma and other places that don't quite measure up to your snooty standards - and watch how hard Karl Rove laughs as the GOP continues to rack up political victories like the one they did last Tuesday.

[geek tragedy]

34. Oklahoma hasn't voted Dem in 40 freaking years.

And it will be at least that long until they do so again.

The Democratic party, on a national level, shouldn't spend two seconds what the fine ignorant folk of Oklahoma think. They're just going to vote Republican by 3-1 no matter if Satan was on the ticket.

The Democrats do need to recognize the difference between potential friends and hardcore enemies. OK is the latter.

[rockydem]

39. Most of the progressive movements of the early twentieth century

found roots in Oklahoma and other red states like Kansas. Then they were opposed to the Wall Street outsiders and the big farm conglomerates. These are people who like to rebel. Maybe we have more in common with some of them than we think. They are true believes like we are - they aren't cynical power grabbers - not the main populace. We could sway them with our own values I believe - some of them - maybe enough of them to turn some of them more blue...

That being said there are some cold-blooded dominionist bigots that are lost causes. But I don't believe most of them are like that....not at root, not at basic levels.

[DWolper]

44. Very true, RockyDem - see my post just above n/t

[rockydem]

48. I saw it

Didn't some of the early anti-slavery movements also find a home in these states?

[geek tragedy]

51. Sorry, but I am unable to see past Tom Coburn's landslide victory.

Only a deep hatred of progressive values explains that kind of voting.

[T Town Jake]

41. You surprise and disappoint me, geek...

...I usually find myself in complete agreement with your posts. You dismiss allies so readily, and that's disappointing.

[geek tragedy]

46. I can see the arguments you're making for states like Missouri , Virginia

etc.

But Oklahoma is a lost cause.

Brad Carson was a moderate, shrewd, intelligent candidate.

And he got his ass kicked by Dr. Dimwit.

There is literally nothing that any party calling itself "progressive" could do to get votes in Oklahoma.

If Brad Carson can't win in Oklahoma against a Nazi troglodyte, the national party really has no prayer.

Oklahoma has to provide at least one example of sanity on a statewide basis before the national party can take it seriously.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[geek tragedy]

57. Well, then we Democrats living in more civilized states are under

absolutely no obligation to acknowledge Oklahoma's existence.

Arnie and Pataki would be far too liberal to get elected in Oklahoma.

[T Town Jake]

60. "Arnie and Pataki would be far too liberal to get elected in Oklahoma"

...and they're both Republican Governors who spoke at the GOP convention in full support of *W, while, in the meantime, we have a genuine Democrat Governor in Oklahoma whom supported John Kerry...that pretty much says it all.

[geek tragedy]

78. I have two words for you:

"Inhofe" and "Coburn."

That is the face Oklahoma wants to show the rest of the country. When the rest of the country wants to know how Oklahoma stands on issues of national importance, Coburn and Inhofe lumber out of their caves to grunt Nazi slogans on behalf of their constituents.

[nickfaldo7]

82. i have lived in Oklahoma most of my life

....and let me tell you, it does suck a gigantic ass. Tulsa is a cool community, but yes, we are the "buckle" of the bible belt. With Rhema Bible College and Oral Roberts University in Tulsa...Jesus is in full force; however, there are a large minority of "us". "Us" being the intellectuals, the free-thinkers, the Bush-haters.

I fucking hate Coburn and I hate Bush, but you should give up on Oklahoma like you've given up on Utah. Ohio, Florida, and the southwest is where you need to concentrate your efforts.

When I see that Okies elect Coburn and Kentucky still elects senile Jim Bunning, it just reinforces two things I know to be true:
1. Dumb people always outnumber smart people.
2. All conservatives aren't stupid, but all stupid people are conservative.

All people care about is in Oklahoma is football.

When I finish my Ph.D., I'll move to Oregon.

Good luck, everybody and keep the faith.

P.S. Are they going to count the provisional ballots in Ohio or not?

[geek tragedy]

86. They ARE counting them.

Just not close enough.

Had we won the nationwide popular vote, I could feel a lot more adamant about the issue.

[5thGenDemocrat]

61. Michigan's governor, Jennifer Granholm, is a Democrat

Our two senators, Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, are both Democrats and my US Congressman, Dale Kildee, is also a Democrat. So is my state representative, Carl Williams.
How's all that working out for you down there in Tulsa, Jake?
John
Oh, sorry to hear that.

[5thGenDemocrat]

38. It ain't snooty

Maybe the real America IS Oklahoma City and Tulsa. I suspect it is and I don't really much give a shit. Like I said, you stay down there in Tulsa and I'll stay up here. Fair enough?
What happens in Washington doesn't affect me nearly as much as what happens in Lansing (that's our state capital). I owe no particular allegiance to the United States, save to vote and pay taxes.
John
If America is Republican, I can live with that. I've been in the minority lots of times. At least I live in a state where the majority of the citizens aren't Bible-banging morons.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[5thGenDemocrat]

55. Boy, that's a cutting blow for an Okie

Now, see if you can't win at least one single election for the Dems at some point in your lifetime. It'll be your first and we'll all enjoy hearing how you finally got your cherry popped.
John
Like I said, Democrats won in Michigan. So pardon both my gloating and my lack of giving a shit about Oklahoma or its seven whole electoral votes.

[5thGenDemocrat]

67. Self-delete

John

[QC]

75. Speaking of St. Ronnie the Racist and his Revolution

It was Macomb County, Michigan, that did so much to help put him in office. Remember the "Reagan Democrats"? White union voters who were willing to vote for a man who despised labor simply because he promised to give the Welfare Queen a good slap?

Ah yes, Michigan! Most segregated state in America! Home of the nation's most famous militia! Land that nurtured and shaped Terry Nichols! Yep, that Michigan's a real paragon of progressive virtue. A veritable Berkeley of the Midwest!

Like I said above, the way the trends are moving, you will soon have big problems of your own, so you would do well to turn down the self-righteousness a bit.

[Sterling]

81. I agree it's worth losing if we are losing on what we believe in.

I also have a hard time believing that the message we would like or party to send is one that will not resonate if it's not watered down by people trying to please the fundies.

[dethl]

45. Wow..haven't seen a pic of my birthplace...

in about 6 years. I moved away from OKC (ok, actually Edmond) when I was 12, and I've been living in New Mexico since.

Speaking as a former Okie, I have seen some dumb ones...but not in the major cities. Then again, my view is biased because the group I talk about was in a little town (not naming it for safety :P) that I went to school for my 4th to 6th grade. I didn't like my classmates, and my teachers wern't that much better.

That said, I plan on visiting OKC in the near future. I'm beginning to lose my memories of my birthplace and need a refresher.

[Zuni]

63. It is partly OUR fault these people now vote for the GOP

A lot of us sophisticated people in cities and on the coasts act like the middle of the country is flyover country.
We don't respect these people, and they won't vote for us until we do.

[geek tragedy]

76. Minnesota and Wisconsin are in the middle of the country. Iowa voted

for Gore. Missouri and Arkansas are states that remain within reach.

Oklahoma, on the other hand, is enemy territory. That is why we don't respect them.

They vote like Nazis down there--giving large victory margins to Neanderthals like Inhofe and Coburn.

That is why we don't respect them. Because they vote like Nazis.

[drhilarius]

69. Please read this thread.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1326463>

[greatauntoftriplets]

70. My guy lives in OKC.... (I don't)

He is a flaming leftist and brilliant. And he worked his ass off for Brad Carson, the Democrat who ran for Senate.

Sadly, he finds progressives to be the exception rather than the rule in his home state.

[okieinpain]

72. you've got to understand nobody lives in these area's but older

white folks. all of the kids have left for the coast's. I don't understand why we can't lie about some of this stuff. bush lies about being a compassionate conservative, and the fundies keep their mouths shut tight.

why can't we do that.

[Sterling]

84. Lie about what?

What exactly should we lie about? nThere are some good people in OKLA. but you won't tap into that goodness with RW talking points of hate.

[Sterling]

73. I used to live in a building in that pic of OKC you have. let em go

The are too far gone. Seriously. Be realistic. That state is controlled by the Gaylords and the Church. If you try to pander to these people then that is what your home will be like soon enough if not allready. I moved as far away from taht as a could, I don't want to have to leave the country to have a place to live and be free.

[drhilarius]

87. Please folks, I basically started this thread and it's killing me...

please check out the thread in post #69.

[Buns_of_Fire]

89. At least we've got Bartcop (in Tulsa, IIRC)

http://www.bartcop.com

[KWBS]

90. From a Republican that backed Kerry - Edwards

In 1980 the South had 26 Democratic Senators, today it has 4. If you look at the national "red versus blue" map at both State and County level it is not hard to see that the DNC has become very isolated from the mainstream of this nation.

2 to 1 Americans classify themselves as conservatives and many moderates vote to the right, not the left on many issues.

Bush has one Achilles Heel that will bring him down, take the wind out of his Imperial Sails and that is 9-11.

I was part of the 9-11 Confronting the Evidence in NYC this year. I was part of the criminal complaint that was delivered to Eliot Spitzer on October 28, 2004.

Over 55 million voted against and many of those voters were ecumenical Christians you people are blindly bashing. They were Conservative Republicans and Libertarians that crossed over to try to stop the Bush Junta and the fascism that is represents.

Right here in Arkansas - two key counties that NEVER vote REP did vote Republican this year. Jefferson and Nevada counties and there were others.

The problem with DNC is DNC and that it represents the fringe left and that is NOT America folks. 2 to 1 says this nation is a conservative nation and one that puts certain values front and center every time.

www.karlschwarz.com

http://www.reopen911.org/petition.php

http://www.justicefor911.org /

All of this talk about running Hillary Clinton in 2008. The RNC has been ready to destroy her since 1994. The strategy that took the House and Senate away from Clinton was designed and largely financed by me. Again, run Hillary, rash into the side of the mountain. They are just waiting for another stupid DNC move.

I took a stand for America, freedom, a turning away from Imperialism and fascism. I have received hundreds of emails from Dems asking what to do now. Frankly, DNC is not "resuscitate-able" in its current form. Lest no one noticed, Bush now controls a stronger US Senate and that is more frightening than him being there for 4 more years.

Every person that voted against Bush should be on those petitions linked above.

It is the only hope you have to stopping Bush, and I am the only Republican of the 100 original names on the petition.

If you have not done so, go to my website under Articles and read the DEMAND LETTER that I sent to Bush September 30, 2004 about 7 hours before the first debate and THEN - get this CLEARLY INTO YOUR HEADS -

that DEMAND LETTER was sent to DNC and Kerry too and they did not use it in the debates to evicerate Bush. CONSIDER THAT!

Both sides of the aisle are covering up 9-11 folks, who did it, who is profiting from it and they are AMERICANS.

Ashcroft was forced to resign due to that letter and I was advised from DC yesterday to NOT accept that as the sacrificial offering and let the rest of the DOERS OF 9-11 OFF THE HOOK!

Wake up Dems.

Karl