We must not hate ordinary god-fearing midwestern folk

[Zuni]

just because many of them voted for the wrong man. It is this writing off of them as unsophisticated rubes that allows the GOP to pick up their votes. These people might not be social liberals and might even trust Bush (he does try to act like one of them), but they have human blood and human concerns. If you appeal to them right and present things in the right way, they will understand why we can do more for them than the GOP can. The GOP doesn't help them.
But the GOP doesn't look down on them because they have a more traditional attitude. In fact, they exploit it for their agenda.

Remember in 1960, Texas voted for JFK. It had a Democrat as govenor.

[leftofthedial]

1. I'll hate anyone I goddamned please

adn religious wack jobs, gun nuts and fascists are at the top of the list.

[Liberal Classic]

29. Give in to hate!

Give in to the dark side!

[NorthernSpy]

2. we need to help them join the Reality-Based Community

And we can start by taking a hard look at the federal redistribution of tax money from blue states to red states.

One of the ways that repugs have ingratiated themselves into the red areas is by appealing to the people's unwillingness to pay taxes. They can make their low-tax strategy work in those places primarily because tax dollars from states like Massachusetts flood in, taking up the slack.

If Mississippians, for instance, actually had to pay for the services they use, they'd have to raise a lot more tax revenue instate. That would inevitably bring up questions of how the burden is to be distributed. And that, in turn, would probably spur interest in reforms such as introducing more progressiveness into the state's tax structure. At the very least, it would almost certainly inspire resentment of regressive tax schemes that soak the working class while letting the rich off easy.

Also, the current red-to-blue transfer of wealth has encouraged the development of an undeniable attitude problem in the red-state voters. The values-oriented discourse of the repugs has encouraged a producerist mindset in which the supposedly overtaxed redstater views himself -- in contrast to the lazy, parasitical, immoral, Taxachusetts liberal -- as extraordinarily productive and deserving.

In reality, he is neither. The vaunted heartland is a charity case. The conservative, salt-o-the-earth Midwestern farmer is a failed businessman who gets by on federal handouts because he simply cannot stand on his own two feet. The morality-based politics of the Republican party are actually a shame-based politics that allow failing whites to displace their shame onto urban blacks, drug users, 'immoral' gays, and other scapegoats.

We don't need to cater to the redsters. We don't need to flatter them. What we need to do is to demoralize them.

I think that we can follow a split strategy. There needs to be a public debate over things like farm subsidies. Red state Democrats can -- and should -- argue mightily for continued help for their states. Blue staters -- both Democrats and fiscal conservatives of all parties can argue their own case: that they are tired of subsidizing these people. The point must be made that since the New Deal is over for the urban poor, it isn't simply isn't fair that people like cotton farmers continue to feed at the public trough. Cotton can be supplied more cheaply by other countries. And considering that American industrial workers have no protection from being cast aside in favor of foreign competition, why should farmers and ranchers get special treatment?

Doing this will allow blue-state Dems to show their constituents that they truly are looking out for their best interests and are trying to prevent them from getting fleeced on tax day. They can point out that the money they save for their states will allow them to take care of instate needs and perhaps even pay for long-desired items such as healthcare. Red-state Dems can point out the harm that the Republicans' "personal responsibility" politics do to society; that a society without a safety net for all sectors of its population just doesn't work; and that America loses its soul when rich areas of the country stop caring about the rest of us: after all, we're all supposed to be in this together, right?

Ultimately, some of the subsidies and tax-funded goodies will disappear, and others will be successfully fought for and maintained. The moral debate will shift, giving the productive Blues the upper hand. "Values-based" voters will have a clearer picture of where they really stand in America, and an understanding that they will need to start cooperating with the rest of society if they hope to maintain their position.



(Edited: it turns out that "progressivity" isn't a word. :dunce:)

[davepc]

5. In 1996 we passed the freedom to farm act to kill farm subsides

In 2002 Bush killed it with nary a whimper. Where the hell was the party leadership on that one?

Anyways, aren't we supposed to be for protectionism and against free-trade stuff like that?

I have no quibble with a return to Federalism, I'll get behind that one in a second, but it needs to be a party wide decision. However, if we DO go Federalist gay marriage and abortion and gun control are going to have to be on a state by state basis. No Roe V Wade to keep everybody "in line". No assault weapons bans.

We cant half ass it as a policy economically, but still claim we know whats best for the country socially.

[NorthernSpy]

11. I'm not talking about strict federalism per se

I'm talking about implementing a strategy that will take the wind out of the sails of the particular region whence all this nation-endangering extremism flows.

Notice that the Republicans sell themselves VERY differently in New England than they do in Alabama, and they frequently push opposing policies as well. We ourselves don't have to cling to a uniform approach in all regions, either.

[htuttle]

32. Actually, that's how it's done

Look at the EU. They have minimum requirements regarding human rights that all member states must meet. However, most internal economic issues, such as health care funding, are left to the individual countries.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cronus Protagonist]

21. Agreed 100%

I came up with the same idea independently, but you thought it all through and posted this beautiful exposition of what would happen.

How can we make it so?

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next day by first class mail)

[NorthernSpy]

38. how to begin

Why thanks. :)


How can we make this come about?

I'm not totally sure, but my guess is that the effort is going to have to start in the donor states with people contacting their Reps, writing letters, getting in the media, and basically raising awareness in the usual way. Probably could get pretty broad support that way. I mean, it's a tax reform, and you'd expect it to have a certain appeal right off the bat.

Interestingly, two 'weak red' (pink?) states -- Nevada and Colorado -- are also donor states, and we might be able to use this as a wedge issue to good effect there.

All that is just to create enough momentum to make it a nationwide issue.

On the national level, the conversation will be about the particulars of the federal spending. Some of this spending is vulnerable (farm subsidies, some highway maintenance, whatever), and some of it's unavoidable and/or good (social security and federal pension payments, etc).

This is just a skeleton, and there's a lot of flesh to be added. Other people almost certainly will have much better ideas on exactly how to go about it than I have.

[Haviland_42]

24. I don't get it.

NorthernSpy said "If Mississippians, for instance, actually had to pay for the services they use, they'd have to raise a lot more tax revenue instate."


I live in Mississippi and I'm not quite sure I follow this one. We (my family) pay for all of the services we use, doctors, dentists, prescriptions, school lunches, etc. We are in a 28% tax bracket and therefore help to fund the public school that our children attend and repair the roads that we drive on.

We pay state taxes as well as Federal taxes unlike states like WA, FL and many, many others. We also pay tax on groceries.

Please explain your statement.

[NorthernSpy]

33. some states pay more federal taxes than they receive in federal spending

And other states receive more in federal spending than they pay in federal taxes.

For example, New Jerseyans are just plain getting mugged: out of every dollar they send the feds, only about 61 cents of it are ever returned. In contrast, every one dollar that Mississippi sends to Washington comes back as $1.85 in federal spending.

See http://www.taxfoundation.org/ff/taxingspendingupdate.html

and http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/151749/966


As you can imagine, this state of affairs is not universally loved, and especially not after the last election. Blue states, on average, lose about 20 cents of each federal tax dollar. Red states, on average, gain about 20 cents on every federal tax dollar. That means that people in Kerry states will be disproportionately forced to carry Bush's whopping deficit. Some people kinda want their money back...

[Haviland_42]

36. Thank you

for explaining that one to me.:-)

Now I have to ask, if that's the case, why is Mississippi still the poorest state in the union? Where's the money?????

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. Pork barrel projects with large amounts of money getting siphoned off in

kickbacks, I would imagine. :shrug:

[NorthernSpy]

26. edit: 1st sentence, 4th paragraph: should read...

"blue to red transfer of wealth..."

this :dunce: could sure use a cup of :donut:

[ellie]

30. Hey Northern Spy!

I like the way you think! I have been reading your posts on this matter and agree wholeheartedly. I hate, I mean, FUCKING HATE, farm subsidies. Those repuke ranchers in the west get subsidies and they get to let their cattle graze on public lands, stripping them of vegetation. Godamn welfare whores. Throw them all off the dole! I am going to write my repuke congresspeople about abolishing the federal tax along with outlawing divorce.

[NorthernSpy]

39. LOL! thankyuh thankyuh...

You mean Nothingshocksmeanymore's modest proposal of outlawing divorce in the red states? Yeah, I liked that too. :D

[killbotfactory]

3. If they respect our positions and our candidate...

It won't matter if they disagree with us on a the issues, so long as they aren't single issue voters. But in their case, it's impossible to sway them anyway.

That's why McCain has crossover appeal.

[sub.theory]

4. Sorry, too late

Fuck those shitheads. Pull your head out of your ass. These guys hate us. They HATE us. They want to drive us into the sea, and you want us to just give them a break?! Fuck that. And I'm from the Midwest. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

[mopaul]

6. too late for me too

i have three in my family, mother, father, and especially my brother.
i KNOW how these fuckers think. i love them, but they are now the enemy of democracy

[Sugarbleus]

7. In terms of opening their eyes to reality..I agree. And HATE

might be over the top for most of them. I respect the right of all people to worship or not worship any way they please.

However, if any good, god fearing people decide to descriminate in a free society against people that are different from them or those who do not subscribe to their brand of "enlightenment"--then they do NOT have my respect as a fellow citizen.

It is MY right to reprove/rebuke that mindset. If they will listen, I can plead reason with them peacefully. If they are hard headed, I will make MY beliefs known harshly.

Face it, this country is culturally divided and has been so for decades. I'm NOT talking about intelligence; I'm talking about CULTURE only. "STATES"..we are like a bunch of tiny little nations all crammed together. Oddly, I'm begining to understand the pain between the people of Israel and the Palestinians.

I live on the west coast. Most of us look at the world differently than land locked Americans do--I imagine many East Coasters do too. Perhaps that is due to the huge diversity of immigrants much earlier on in our history (at both coasts) than what the midwest is only now experiencing?

I have relatives in Idaho--Yikes, long story there. I had relatives in Colorado, good people. I have long-line early american family ties in Ohio(father's side)--I lived in west Ohio when I was in High School. Having come from Calif as a young girl at that time, it was an ENORMOUS culture shock! I'm sure "everywhere" in between the coasts has changed, to some degree, since I was a youngin'.. still we are divided too much with a long way to go.

[evilqueen]

15. As I was reading this...

...a picture of that map of red and blue states came into my head and it occurred to me that pretty much all the blue states are on coasts... even here in the north-central part, we've got the great lakes. I don't know what that means or if there is even any sort of deeper meaning to that at all, but it does seem a bit odd, doesn't it?

[Sugarbleus]

43. Yep. But hey, I don't claim to have all the answers...

It just seems like people of "like minds" sort of group together.. I heard the term "Tribal" used over the news several times regarding the differences between red states and blue..etc.

And, thinking of your comment about where you live..it IS interesting that the northern states along the lakes and the (multicultural/Social Democratic Canadian) border are blue this time too. hmmm

[A-Schwarzenegger]

50. and along the Mississippi & even the toe of Texas in the H2O...

[arewenotdemo]

53. African-Americans along the Mississippi and Mexican-Americans along

the Rio Grande.

Wish I knew more about emigration patterns. Might explain why some counties in Kentucky are pretty blue (on the red-to-blue spectrum map) while neighboring counties are very red.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

56. I'd love to see a real study of this. Maybe we could flood

the whole damn country.

[kitkatrose]

55. Well, someone suggested

(I don't remember who, sorry) that those areas have a lot of trade going on since they're major waterways and with trade comes new, generally progressive ideas. Or at the very least a sense of "there's a big world out there that affects me."

[Catt03]

61. When I moved to CA from GA it was a big culture shock also

but after a couple of years, you couldn't tear me away...I became a Californian. For myself,living in Ca. was feeling like I was in another country because it was so detached from the East coast and
the south.

So you have a point.

I live in Florida now, because of my career and actually hate it even though I am in a blue county. I notice some of the same dynamic of the people here. Most have never lived anywhere else but the east coast and have no idea about living in any other section of the country.

I guess we could start an exchange program and have Midwesterners stay in the Northeast for awhile ...hee. But I don't think the southern fundamentalists will go for that, they are dug in.

[The Flaming Red Head]

8. Lets all seduce them and corrupt them instead

but use protection, always use protection.

[Flammable Materials]

9. Oh, why not?

:)

[arewenotdemo]

54. I imagine some of those flatland girls could use a peak experience

or two.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. I dislike them to the extreme because they refuse to listen to reason.

If they were truly "God fearing", they would have realized what an evil administration this is. That's about it. They deserve the "hell" that's about to come down upon us. I'm just sorry my kids have to suffer along with the losers.

[Deja Q]

12. I was told yesterday to have faith in Bush and that things would be better

in only one year.

However, 4 hours later when I got home, I read no less than 4 articles that shows * is hardly true to his words of working with us (he'll leave us behind if we don't work with him, which sounds like a threat to me).

Sorry, I will speak my voice - but in a way that they won't realize until it is too late. (e.g. I will ask my coworker what she'd think if Kerry were to impose a plan that would force all Americans to undergo psychiatric testing. And other issues, using Kerry's name for Bush's. She'll think the ideas are nuts. When * comes forth with the proposals, she'll realize how stupid she has been and that her faith in * was wrong.)

[sendero]

13. Dude....

.... I don't give a shit anymore. They are dumbass rubes and no amount of sugar coat can change that.

I don't want their fucking vote. I want them to get exactly what they asked for - because this country is headed for rock-bottom and nothing is going to change until we get there.

When people will vote for the worst president in history and give him a decisive victory, what am I supposed to do about it?

I'm tired of worrying about the idiots in this country. Let them trash SS, let them have perpetual war, let them have their ridiculous false sense of security that Bush** can prevent another terrorist attack.

Fuck them all.

[antigone382]

14. Well, wasn't this yesterday's talking point?

We "insulted" the folks so they didn't vote? Screw that. Let me say this as plainly as I can:


ANYONE who voted for * is 1) a MORAN! 2) a greedy, bloodthirsty elitist ( just like Jeebus told them to be) and C) the enemy of this nation, her Constitution, and her people who wish to be truly free.

If they don't like it, screw them. This is not GOP lite. This is the party of thinkers.

* won because THEY CHEATED. and the fucking retards in the midwest and South LET THEM DO IT !!!!!!!FUCK YOU SOUTH> FUCK YOU MIDWEST>


Most especially FUCK YOU GEoRGE BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sangh0]

17. No, yesterday we were using YOUR talking points, and they lost

ANYONE who voted for * is 1) a MORAN! 2) a greedy, bloodthirsty elitist ( just like Jeebus told them to be) and C) the enemy of this nation, her Constitution, and her people who wish to be truly free.

I've been hearing that for years on DU, and it still hasn't won any elections.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. and what has?

Praising the lord in churches apparently, and preaching against certain groups of people and seeking to reduce women to handmaids for Christ and their husbands. So we should be more like them because that is what it takes to win an election. Uh huh--I got it now.

[sangh0]

27. Values win elections

So we should be more like them because that is what it takes to win an election. Uh huh--I got it now.

Never said that. You might try readin Lakoff's "Dont think of an elephant" if you want a clue. Then you won't have to make assumptions about what I believe.

[Tsiyu]

42. Hopefully this will post under the correct moniker

sanghO, I cannot tell a lie. It was I who posted this morning ( antigone and I share a computer and I did not realize it was logged in under her account).
I apologize for the confusion, to both you and antigone.

I still feel the same. This was the talking point yesterday- more rove telling the Repukes how to demean us. I am angry with ANYONE who voted for Bush* and I am not going to "make nice" whether it's politically correct or not.

The day will come when they will regret their choice. That's all I'm gonna say. And I still say fuck you to all of them.

[RafterMan]

59. You won't make nice because it's politically correct

Well you make nice because it's politically expedient? Politically necessary?

[Malva Zebrina]

18. sorry, they have caused great harm

to me. I hate god fearing nice ordinary people who would send off youngsters to die, on lies for the sake of voting against gay marriage.

Sorry I can't be nice to them. Let them rot in their "nice" churches and praise the lord for all the deaths that are to occur and al the injustice that is being meted out in Iraq. Let them continue to praise the lord for death and destruction, for people who will suffer for lack of jobs and for lack of health care. Let them praise the lord for their continued "safety"--hell, there is nothing there that any terrorist would target after all. It is the commies on the coast that will be attacked and that of course, should it happen again, will\ be the lord's justice.

I travel around a lot. At one time it was my goal to visit every state in my country to enjoy the people living in each state and meet them up close and personal.

I will never spend another penny in any god fearing red state. I am ashamed of my fellow Americans using the lord to vote in a man who claims to be a god practically, while destroying my country. They are stupid, ignorant and prone to be blind followers of an evil man because god speaks to him and god put him in office.

[bread_and_roses]

23. I feel the same, and

I like the idea above of exacting tax justice on the red states. They are willing to gut every safety net, every step toward justice, equality, fairness, humanity for goddess sake, to keep same sex couples out of the same bed and enforce childbearing, then let them live in the world they choose. Let them starve when they are out of work. Let them sleep in the streets when their farms are forclosed. Maybe then they'll decide that economic justice is more important then who loves whom.

On edit, I know I'd never really let people starve. But it sure feels good to pretend for a moment.

[fshrink]

20. I don't hate monkeys either, but then again

I'm not ruled by them.

[MikeG]

22. I'll hate whoever the fuck I want to hate.

I got four years to do it.

Fuck everyone who voted for Bush.

I hope every calamity known to man hits them.

That is all.

[faithfulcitizen]

25. Hello? didn't he say "ordinary"? not freak-shows, jeez...

I totally agree with your arguement. Our candidates just need to know how to talk to them, and bring them to the table. imo, Wes Clark did that better than any of the candidates.

[Carson]

28. Exactly. Don't equate every red-stater

and Bush-voter with the "God hates fags" group or racists. Just like the Democrats do not want to all be labeled PETA radicals and eco-terrorists.

Use your head, folks. This kind of mindless hatred does no one any good...even yourselves.

eom

[sampsonblk]

31. They ARE unsophisticated rubes

I have been trying to talk sense to dozens of them for the past three years. Fact is, they are ignorant of the facts. You have seen the polls. A majority of them still believe Saddam and Osama were friggin buddies, and that we actually DID find WMDs in Iraq, and that Saddam used WMDs against our troops last time, and that Bush was right to tell the whole world to fuck off.

Folks, this is not just another viewpoint, this is ignorance. And its WILLFUL ignorance.

[QC]

35. Not all of those people live in the midwest.

2,756,361 of them apparently live in Pennsylvania, where Bush carried 60 of 67 counties.

And speaking as someone who used to live in Perry County, where there is not a single traffic light and sheep outnumber people, I can tell you that rural provincialism is not limited to the midwest or south.

[arewenotdemo]

57. Saw that on the map

PA as red as Ohio or Indiana, save for Pittsburgh and Philly.

Gee, can't we make peace somehow so we can at least tour some of the scenic red areas?

I propose Blue Staters and Blue Cities in red states issue our own (blue) currency so those rubes know where their next dollar is coming from.

[Bush was AWOL]

34. I'm this kind of Democrat

These people can be won over, but not with some sort of elitist I'm better than you attitude.

They agree with Democrats on Pocketbook issues and education.

What they don't agree with is people who think they're idiots for believing in God.

[atreides1]

37. But

It wasn't the pocketbook issues and education that they were concerned with. It was abortion and gay marriage, the fact is that most of the fundies and evangelicals would like to force their beliefs
down everyone's throat.

Remember it was "morals and values" that they were concerned with. The down side is that their idea of morals does not include the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians, and their values for the most part are corrupt.

My God, most still believe that Saddam and Osama, were in on 9/11 together. With all of the evidence that refutes this, and they still believe it.

I don't think that they're idiots for believing in God, I think they're idiots for believing that Bush has been annointed by God.
That somehow, freedom is a God given right, which God?

If freedom is a God given right, then let God give it. They don't believe in God, they believe in a man, they don't believe in what this country was founded upon, they believe in a man.

I'm sorry but their belief in Bush does not equate to a belief in God.

[Tsiyu]

58. The thing is, I don't see hordes

of gays roaming the streets begging to get married. if they ever did so, it was a private matter between adults. And I don't see any gays having abortions, nor do I see any right-to-lifers racing to Fallujah to remove all the pregnant women from harm's way.

Okay?

What I do see is 1200 beautiful dead bodies. What I do see are 100,000 dead Iraqis. What I do see is Abu Ghraib. And I am FUCKING FED UP TO MY EYEBALLS WITH PEOPLE TELLING ME GOD CAN'T SEE THOSE THINGS. IF THERE IS A GOD, IT SEES THOSE THINGS.

hello??????????????????????????????????????????????

[bigtree]

40. ordinary god-fearing midwestern folk's values

don't make them any more moral than I am, no matter what they believe about gays, God, or guns.

Why aren't we able to DEMAND that they respect our version of morality? TWO percent more republican votes than Democrat's votes recorded in ONE state isn't a referendum on values in America.

[Haviland_42]

41. Does anyone else think that America should split up the land?

LOL!

My gosh, I've voted in 5 Presidential elections now and I've never seen political division in this country like I am now.

Can we just split the country in half?

Somebody get me a roll of duct tape.

LMAO!

[Trahurn]

45. It Was and Is Hatred That Motivates Most Conservatives

Throughout this election cycle I have never born witness to more bellicose hatred at every corner you turned than I have from right wing conservative fascists. I have never been able to conduct a single, intelligent conversation with a conservative no matter what the subject with out being lambasted for my beliefs and/or opinions.I had a chat once with someone totally unknown. The chat was friendly and easy going. I was asked about my military service which I gave and was met with approval and what seemed like a bit of admiration as it was pretty tough duty during the cold war. That is until it became evident that I was a democrat instead of the republican he/she naturally assumed he or she were talking to and in a heartbeat that friendly conversation stopped and the parting shot form this clown was that I was a disgrace to my uniform. Why? Just because I was a liberal democrat. That is the kind of insidious hatred I have dealt with from these "red" people and you cannot tell me that hatred was not a primary motivating factor for many if not all the red people to vote for Bush. Hatred of gays hatred of liberals just plain old hatred. I suggest you reevaluate your friendly red person.

[bloom]

46. there are a lot of "ordinary god-fearing midwestern folk" around

where I live.

So far - a lot of the people who grew up as dems still are dems. Whether it be from the union sort of mentality or what - I don't know.

I think it wouldn't take too much perceived "hating" by "sophisticated rubes" to make them jump ship altogether.

I agree that a clear "we are for regular people (in a big tent kind of way)" message would be what they expect from the Democratic party.

[saracat]

47. Screw the Fundies. I don't want theirr support!

[union_maid]

48. I don't care

If their interpretation of God led them to vote for Bush they are the enemy. I was a fairly moderate person before this election, but no more. They declared war on us. We have to realize that and realize that there's no getting them back. What we need is not to back down on one single thing. And I so agree with the idea that we need a movement to stop red states from syphoning off money from blue states. The federal government isn't going to do jackshit for anyone. We need that money for the programs that the feds won't fund. Red staters who don't like the results are welcome to move and pay their taxes into more enlightened systems.

[mopaul]

49. the little ol ladies and well meaning xtians are now DANGEROUS

it'll take EXTREME JESUS to finally show the non believers

[blondeatlast]

51. We mustn't beat our heads against brick walls, either,

but posting this at DU is the logical equivalent.

I agree with you, but it's a lost cause here.

[americanwomanone]

52. Don't Hate Them Don't Want Them In MY Face, that's all. n/t

[Justpat]

60. Why not?

They are the ones who wish to impose their fundamentalist beliefs
on us all. They are the ones who feel that their Christain "victory"
at the polls will enable them to establish a christian society by
fascist methods.

No, I hate them for their ignorance, but most of all I hate them
for the evil they hide under their christian facade.