I am a native Oklahoman

[lulu]

I left after graduating college, but my family still lives there. They are all republicans. I am a screaming lefty. I understand your anger towared the people there completely. It's exactly how I felt most of my life. I grew up in Edmond surrounded by fudies -- Baptists, Church of Christ, Evangelicals -- and they all fought with one another about who was THE MOST HOLY. Believe me, I thought these people were crazy. I grew up Episcopalian (don't believe in religion now, but do believe in Spirit).

Here's the deal. Oklahomans are about as earnest as they come. They believe what their pastors/preachers say. My brother, a fundie, loved his minister and thought he was perfect, until the man left his wife and ran off with the church secretary. He was in shock for days. My other brother, also a fundie, thought that THe Blair Witch Project was real, until I showed him the cover of Time Magazine that featured the actors and director.

They are not materialistic, and really aren't stupid or mean. They are just earnest and simple people who are scared to death of deep thought. They like things spelled out in simple terms. The simpler the terms, the safer they feel.

They yearn to be a part of something bigger than themselves, something as big as the vast acres of farmland and country that surround them. Fundamentalist religion gives them that connection to biggness -- to god. As long as they follow the very simple rules, they are part of god's great plan. Hey, what could be anymore reassuring than that?

What do we, as liberals and progressives, have to offer them? A vast chaos. A shaky, greyness that gives them nothing solid to hold onto. These people are not in their bodies, literally. They are too afraid to sit and meditate, too afraid of the ideas and feelings that might arise that can't be easily categorized. Thus, they are easily motivated by fear, black and white thinking.

I say the only way to communicate with them is through kindness, through your heart. Don't condescend. They will save your life in a pinch. Believe me.

But, it could be hopeless. They are set in their ways, and slow to change. They love Rush and his simple bellicosity. It's why I left so long ago. It's like being stuffed into a glass jar with the lid screwed on. I was suffocating.

[Skidmore]

1. I understand what you are saying perfectly.

And I would add one thing to what you say. Because these people often have limited means and the rural areas lack the type of infrastructure which provides broader opportunities, they tend to be provincial in their thinking at times. However, that does not mean they are stupid. There is a kind of intelligence that cannot be measured in book learning. My mother-in-law used to call it "mother's wit"--we probably are more likely to call it common sense. You can find it abundantly out here in the hinterlands and there have been many times when I have a grateful recipient of the musings of a gnarly, sunbaked old farmer. Lulu, you are correct, there are many goodhearted souls out here, and nothing is more insulting for them than being treated like an incalcitrant child.

[lulu]

2. Provincial, exactly

But the land -- mother nature -- overwhelms them, too. My grandfalther was a farmer/rancher, an alcholic, and a mean son of a gun. My grandmother was a Sunday school teacher. She had to be. To put up with him.

[Skidmore]

3. Yeah, I know people like that, some of

whom are family. But the land holds them and they return to her over and over again. I went away for a long period of time and lived in large cities, but I feel most at home here where the land stretches away to to horizon, the wind whistles across the prairie, and you can see millions of stars at night. The simplicity of life in rural areas is not something to be disdained, but treasured. You are right, there needs to be a constructive dialogue.

[Z_I_Peevey]

4. Yesterday it was gay people

and today it's Okies. Who's up for vilification tomorrow? Veterinarians? Cross-dressers? Adulterers? People who eat TV dinners? Those allergic to cats?

Geez, people. We're all Americans. The only division I can see is those who are reality-based vs. those who have succumbed to some sort of mass psychosis. And that seems to be pretty widespread across this big ole land of ours.

[sazemisery]

5. post deleted

[sazemisery]

6. Liberal and Isolated in Oklahoma

I am in Oklahoma (Muskogee) and it is really scary living here. Two days before the election I was standing in line at a convenience store and a guy came in and wanted to know who owned the green Jeep parked outside. I acknowledged it was mine thinking something was wrong when he said to me, "If I were you, I'd take those bumper stickers off your car before something bad happens to it. Anybody who would even think of voting for John Kerry is stupid and needs to find a new state to live in."
I replied, "Excuse me, don't we live in the United States where we are free to express our opinions?"

He answered, "NOT IN MY STATE YOU DON"T!"
Luckily, the Vietnamese owner whom I trade with daily, told the man to be civil or take his business elsewhere.
The bumper stickers in question were:
Kerry/Edwards
Nothing Accomplished Moveon.org
Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?

The Kerry/Edwards and the Nothing Accomplished are gone but have been replaced by the following:
Trust him twice? Shame on us
Liberal is not a 4 letter word

[Mike L]

7. Nice story.

In SC, other than interstate travel, I saw a total of two Kerry/Edwards bumper stickers.

[DinahMoeHum]

8. Are you familiar with the Progressive Alliance Foundation?

www.palfound.net

[lulu]

12. Thanks for posting the link

I'm not aware of it. I believe that only Oklahomans can change Oklahomans. It's a good start.

[DinahMoeHum]

14. The executive director lost his brother on 9/11. . .

and used to work for a Texas outfit called the Texas Freedom Network.

:bounce:

[guitar man]

9. I am an Okie

I live on the very edge of West Tulsa. I work in Oklahoma City. I have a big pickup truck, a coupl dogs that love to ride in it with me, own guns, hunt, fish and wear flannel shirts, drink domestic beer and shout at football on the TV.

On Tuesday, I walked into the booth and voted straight Democratic and I voted against the damn "Jim Crow" anti-gay marriage law on the ballot. Trust me, there are some of us that know what the right thing is and have the courage and conviction to do it.

[DinahMoeHum]

10. (duplicate)

n/t

[NorthernSpy]

11. I disagree with using kindness to communicate with them

It would be much better to use shame.

They don't understand the notion of a person being kind to the people who hate him. They see that sort of thing as evidence of weakness.

Shame they understand.

The 'stop red-state welfare' plan offers good opportunities for this.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/151749/966


Tell them, I'm tired of paying your taxes for you. You're a freeloader. You should be ashamed of yourself. I want my money back.

You know they deserve to hear it.


They make our lives hell, because they've developed an ideology that allows them to feel superior in the face of their own not-so-hot reality.


If you can make them feel shame, they will have a harder time perceiving you as weak.

[Skidmore]

17. I'm sorry you feel that you pay our taxes out here.

We work too, we pay taxes, and the fruits of our labor line the shelves of your grocery stores. You need us too.

[NorthernSpy]

28. you don't think this tactic is the choice of my heart, do ya?

I'm a leftwinger, Skidmore! I certainly don't live to hurt the simple folk.

The problem is that theirs is a region whose political strength has mostly been handed to it on a silver platter because the people of the donor states simply haven't contested the current arrangement.

Democrats have made an enormous mistake in reliably acting in solidarity with these people and their economic interests while expecting nothing in return. Only a sucker does that. We've actively defended maintaining New Deal terms with people who absolutely do spit on us and our values. That needs to stop. I think it's only natural that some of us are coming to view the redsters as rather demanding and undeserving on the whole.

There is not a single thing that red America produces that we cannot get cheaper from somewhere else. They will continue to treat the rest of society like shit for as long as they are allowed to fancy themselves irreplaceable.

[lulu]

18. Perhaps "kindness" was too soft a word

They act superior only because they believe that we feel superior over them. Like I said, they don't like to think too much.

Maybe straightforward is a better word than kind. Be straight with them. Tell them you're not a communist (they still think the commies are out to get their land).

Shaming them won't work. Most don't want to listen. They don't want to be part of the reality-based community. Really. They are magical thinkers in the worst way possible.

I read somewhere that now, with Bush* back in office, these people who voted for him will see what it's really like living in a right-wing/totalitarion state. All those things listed on Kos will happen. Perhaps it's their path, now, to reap what they sow.

[Skidmore]

23. LOL... magical thinkers is right...

daydreamers and deeply superstitious, but pushing that aside will be happy to tell you when your load needs another brick.

I think you are right about getting the chance to live what those preachers have taught is the ideal society. I trust the people's common sense though. It may be an opportunity of learning to be careful what you wish for.

[QC]

31. "They don't understand the notion of a person being kind...

to the people who hate him."

I'm not so sure about that:

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Romans 12:20.

[drhilarius]

13. I'm going to keep posting this until I fucking redeem myself.

I am the bastard who pretty much started this. I was angry, wrathful, irrational,every kind of dark and negative feeling you can have. It kills me that my actions are still causing this kind of division. Please read this, and, if you can, forgive me:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1326463>

[Z_I_Peevey]

15. You're a fine, fine human being

I did not see that thread before, and thanks. We really must hang together, as B. Franklin so wisely noted, or....well, you know.

[Skidmore]

16. Don't beat yourself up.

I read you other thread only after I posted to this one. I just think that urban and rural living are vastly different. We can't all live in the cities. Just know that rural people work very hard with limited community resources. They are good people with good hearts. We all are misguided at times. I've been pretty angry myself the past two days and would like to lash out too. Go in peace, doctor. We have your back.

[drhilarius]

20. Thank Goodness you guys are seeing this...

I've felt bad about it all night and this morning. Every time I see that "dumb okie" thread I feel awful. I think a lot of us are finally getting through the anger stage. Blue/Red, let's just heal the divisions, stick together, and work on getting those bastards in '06.

[lulu]

26. Hey, don't worry

I hated them for a long, long time. I have to deal with those feelings every day since I still have family there. We never talk politics, ever. I don't buy my brothers' kids Harry Potter novels. But hope is there. One of my nieces, 10 years old and a real kick in the pants, asked her parents why she could see the Spiderman and Lord of the Rings movies, but not Harry Potter. She asked her father this in front of me. I never laughed so hard.

[alwynsw]

37. Thanks.

[Sterling]

19. Wow I could have posted the exact same thing.

Right down to Edmond Oklafuckinhoma. Im going back pretty soon to visit and watch the Sooners play.

I think kindness is good but it really is time to be firm and assertive. We have to make them face some things they may get offended facing like the insanity of faith based voting.

Actually I doubt we can each any of them now after thinking about it. I love those people but they are a lost cause. It's sad.

[lulu]

27. My cousin played for Barry Switzer

in the 1980s!

A lost cause is probably right. Like I said above, let them reap what they sew.

[Cats Against Frist]

21. I apologize

but I completely disagree. The difference between "modernity" and "Religious Fundamentalism" is a chasm that I think few are simply "talked into."

You can't reason with people who don't believe in reason.

[PSU84]

22. I am a thinking, rational person.

I am also a blue stater. I have more in common socially, culturally, and politically with the typical CANADIAN than I do with the typical Oklahoman. I have no respect at all for their "faith based" view of the world. I want nothing to do with them. They are of another, inferior world. We are two nations. It's time to face that reality.

[CBGLuthier]

24. Well then

I think you know what part of my Okie anatomy you can kiss then.

Why everyone keeps painting the entire state with one damn brush is a mystery to me.

A hell of a lot of people voted for Bush in your precious blue states.

We ARE not all ignorant fundies. Hell, my parents are a little bit fundie, not raving or anything, and they voted for Kerry.

Over 504,000 Oklahomans voted for Kerry. Sure the million Bush votes made it not matter but those of you who think everyone here is some kind of knuckle dragger, wife beating maniac, are so full of shit.

Even fucking Toby Keith supported democratic candidates.

[PSU84]

25. Love that guy you sent to the Senate.

Coburn has a lot in common with anther doctor - Josef Mengele.

[QC]

32. Nobody here sent Coburn to the Senate.

Perhaps this has escaped your notice, what with you being so busy alienating your allies and all, but people who hang out here tend to be liberals. It's not likely that you're going to run into anyone from the Coburn Fan Club here.

All this kind of shit does is pit Democrats against each other, and you are pouring all your energy and time into it. If that is what you consider progressive, then you have nothing to contribute, because you are doing the Right's work for them. If you really want to help the cause, you need to put a sock in it until you've got your right mind about you again.

[CBGLuthier]

33. I didn't send him

I voted for Carson thank you very much.

My point today, my only point is that blaming entire state populations is insulting to those of us who voted democratic. It is possibly the most counter-productive thing we can do.

If Ohio had gone blue, some (a word that others could learn to use) people here would be calling them the greatest. But since they went red ( not allowing for the fraud that may have happened) SOME people here now think the whole state is a bunch of ignorant hicks. Which insults the slightly less than 50% (didn't check final counts but should be within a few points) of the state that voted for Kerry.

[QC]

34. [dupe]

[Coyote_Bandit]

29. Blue in Red JOklahoma

I live in Tulsa. I am not native to this state. I was reared on a working ranch/farm in a rural area in Arkansas. I was sent to and educated in a Christian univesity (and yes I passed my profesisonal exams immediately after graduating). I have lived in JOklahoma for some time. Noved away for employemnt reasons to a large metropolitan area and was recruited back here (and then laid-off which is another story). I've been here long enough to make several observations and form some conclusions of my own.

As observed earlier, there is a simple idealism among many who live here. The Tulsa area is home to many Christian ministries including several that are international in scope. The people who run these ministries clearly have an agenda. They exploit the simple idealism of those who live here - and they motivate and manipulate many to relocate to other parts of the world to perpetuate that agenda. These ministries go largely unchallenged. Those who would question are often asked to leave and escorted out of ministry facilities.

I would also comment on the culture of greed that is prevalent here. This is a state that was born in greed when the original land rush boomer sooners cheated and crossed the line and rushed to stake their claim on lands before being legally allowed to do so. It is a heritage that many in the state are proud of (think football) - though they are reluctant to recognize it as a heritage of greed and exploitation.

That same greed is reflected in the teachings of many of the ministries here. This state is populated by a disproportionate number of independent non-denominational charismatic word of faith churches that teach the prosperity gospel. They are accountable to nobody. Typically they have a board of directors that includes the pastor, his wife and another family member. They teach positive confession - you speak things into being by faith. They teach that God is continuing to give new revelation - through annointed leaders, through prophecy, through tongues and their interpretation, and through the other gifts and fruits of the spirit. And they teach prosperity - give to God and He will reward you by multiplying your gift back to you. And if you are not being financially prospered it is because there is some sin or failing in your own life. They teach that rebellion is evil - which makes it easy to discredit anyone who questions. And they teach that oppression and persecution for their beliefs will come. They use Scripture to support their views.

JOklahoma is a state of simple idealists who are being exploited and manipulated by a small group with an agenda. Simple idealists will take offense at the "moral failures" of ministry leaders but they will not reject the message of faith or its agenda for such reasons. Faith based decisions and actions will be changed for faith based reasons. Rational arguments, condemnation and various strong arm tactics will fail because the simple idealists have already been told to expect - and overcme - such persecutions. God will bless and reward them for doing so. And yet these people have largely faith based idealistic motives. Their actions and behaviors will be changed when the foundations of their faith is challenged.

The "christian" agenda neglects much of the teaching of Scripture and yet it goes largely unchallenged within the "christian" community. Why? Church politics and the interrelationships between ministries and churches and the need of a professional pastorate to cater to those who enable the ministry to financially support itself. Professionals within the ministry have wives, kids and mortgages too and most realize that confronting the failures and excesses of the ministry is a sure ticket to long-term unemployment.

Like political views, christendom embraces both liberal nd conservative views. And the conservative christians have marshalled their views and gained political power while the liberal christians were giving all of us warm fuzzies. Where are the liberal christians? In the past they have contributed to many of the social and economic edvancements within our country. Perhaps someday that sleeping giant will awake.

[PSU84]

30. Very perceptive observations.

The inherent contradictions of what the fundamentalist preach has always amused.

Being a lapsed Catholic, I take some solace in knowing that if there were a Hell, that's where they would all be going....

[Sara Beverley]

35. You've got it. Post this in the GD too.

I lived in OK for a while. You are so right about most of the people. BUT there are hamlets of OKies who are still fighting the Civil War and will be forever.

[thinkingwoman]

36. deep in red state land I can tell you

one way to convert these people is to show them, gently, that they are being used.

They are NOT stupid. They are brainwashed. Their preachers tell them God wants them to vote Republican. You have got to counter that on an individual level. You've got to convince them that the preacher they trust is leading them astray.

One thing rural people HATE is being made a fool of. Show them how they are being used and they will turn on Bush like nobody's business. We'll have to get out of the way or we'll be run over by the rush to get him!