Dean in 2008

[CTLawGuy]

While we will be able to thank the 22nd Amendment for defeating Bush in '08, I think if we want to win, we need a different kind of candidate than we had in John Kerry.

1. Let's stop worrying about "electability". We learned on Tuesday that "electability" is bullshit. Let's choose our candidates based on their ideas and how willing they are to stand up for them.

2. Let's stop tolerating spinelessness. The minute Kerry voted for the war in Iraq, he lost ALL credibility on the issue, because Bush was able to beat him over the head with his vote. We should not reward any politician who sells out to the Reich Wing on any important issue.

3. Governors make better candidates than senators. John Kerry had 20 years in the Senate, which he inexplicably never talked about, so bush was able to paint him as more liberal than Ted Kennedy. Senators have complex voting records that can be distorted by the opposition. This is harder to do to governors. Also governors have executive experience and can offer their accomplishments as the head of a state as proof of what they can do as national leader.

4. NO ONE CARES WHETHER YOU SERVED IN VIETNAM. Let's put the Vietnam issue to rest once and for all. There was WAY too much time spent on this at both the Democratic Convention and on the campaign in general. 30 years ago is not relevant to today. The fact Bush was able to turn Kerry's service into a liability is amazing to me.


We need Howard Dean to run again. He is a man who was not afraid to stand up to Bush. He stood up for civil and human rights in Vermont. He balanced budgets and worked in a bipartisan fashion. He brought the two parties together in his legislature. He can bring rural state values and progressivism together on a national stage. On top of that, he is a humble, down to earth personality. He is right to lead our country in 2008.

I hope those who were naysayers this time around will consider asking for Howard Dean to run in 2008.

[CTLawGuy]

1. kick

[genius]

221. To the right of Bush on the economy and civil rights

I like his spirit. He is more honest than Bush. He wouldn't have quit. But his supporters walked away when they found out where he stood on the issues. That's why he really lost the primary. Most of the Dean supporters I knew went to Kerry because, on virtually every issue, Kerry was more liberal.

[donheld]

223. What issues are you talking about?

i think your wrong.

[NYCGirl]

229. I think you're mistaken.

Dean's socially liberal, fiscally VERY moderate. We all know that.

You mean Kerry's "liberal" votes on the IWR, the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, etc? Kerry hasn't been liberal for years.

[mandyky]

274. That's YOUR take on what happened

If you are comparing Dean to Bush, you obviously never really listened to what he said.

I am a liberal bordering on a socialist, and while I did not agree with all Dean's views, I've never wavered in my support of him.

#1 - Dean never claimed to be a liberal, nor that he was anti - war - those labels came from the SCLM.

#2 - Dean sees civil rights as a class issue, not a race issue. And on Gay Rights, he was way ahead of the pack.

People moved to Kerry because we were bambozzled that he was _more_ electable, and the horible fight in Iowa lead by Geppy and the DLC took its toll.

[NoPasaran]

2. On board!

:kick:

[mrgorth]

3. First, I love Dean

and I don't want that to be questioned. But as for both he AND Wes Clarke, it is very hard to get elected when you are not IN some kind of elected office. Dean would serve us better by bringing someone up. That said, we should go with someone LIKE Dean.

[WI_DEM]

4. right now I'd like Dean to head the DNC

but I wouldn't rule out supporting him again in a run for president.

[Padraig18]

5. No problem for me.

I haven't heard any better ideas.

:hi:

[Wat_Tyler]

6. Sure, but now is not the time for this.

I would proudly support Howard Dean, but we have to sort through this mountain of shit first.

[JHBowden]

7. Think with your head, not your heart.

All of the Democrats were behind 10-15% points in January, and Kerry, the most liberal senator in the Congress, made it a very close race.

If we are wise, we'd pick a moderate governor from a pink or red state. Mark Warner seems like the logical choice if he wants the job. A former businessman, the self-made multi-multimillionaire not only connects to rural voters but won't alienate pro-business moderates. Since he is a governor, there is no record for the Republicans to cherry-pick and bash him with.

Evan Bayh is another idea, though we need to decide whether the social moderates he brings in would outnumber the secular voters we would hemmorage to the greens and libertarians.

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. FUCK the DLC

They will not be picking any more candidates for this party. Period.

[mrgorth]

14. I'm with you

fuck these Clintonistas. We can win without the south and I'm fine with that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. "we can win without the south and i'm fine with that"

Show me an election in the last hundred years where the Democratic candidate has won without being competitive in the south...

Your logic is flawed...

[Bush was AWOL]

28. It's never happened

we've basically come to the point where we must win Ohio or Florida or we lose. Those states both trend conservative, so I think it's time to change the strategy.

[mrgorth]

74. I have no problem at all

running someone from the south so long as they don't run on some pro-imperialist, homophobe, econo-centrist platform. Got any like that?

[msongs]

113. umm, Lincoln won without the south (don't think he was a dem tho) so

it can be done.

Msongs
Riverside CA

dean-obama 2008
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Hephaistos]

161. It's not about the south

The good ol' boys in 'bama are never going to vote dem.

States like Iowa and Wisconsin are slipping from our grip. We MUST maintain those, and start working on Colorado, New Mexico, and Nevada, where we are within striking distance.

THOSE ARE NOT SOUTHERN STATES!

KKKarl's medium-term goal is a takeover of California - once they have Cali, it's over for a generation or two.

[janx]

164. If it's any consolation, the Colorado legislature is now DEM--

and we finally have one Dem U.S. senator as well.

[Hephaistos]

177. I don't think the western types will like fundie 'murka very much

Go Colorado!

[janx]

183. They don't. I spoke with a very nice libertarian type a few

days ago...he's a very spiritual guy who also cares very deeply about the separation of church and state.

He can't stand Bush*.

[WI_DEM]

9. actually as I recall it most of our candidates were very close

to Bush in the polls during the primary season and the debate was that Kerry was more "electable" because maybe he was performing a point or two better than Dean or Clark vs. Bush.

[Goldmund]

15. Can we stop repeating this RW lie?

"...and Kerry, the most liberal senator in the Congress..."

[CTLawGuy]

37. Hello,

Dean is a moderate governor, granted from a blue state. However, Vermont is rural and has rural values like any other state, it just isn't infected with religious fundamentalism.

[jsw_81]

269. Really?

I read somewhere that Dean had to wear a bullet-proof vest and got thousands of death threats following the civil unions fiasco.

[madfloridian]

54. If we keep trying to win on their issues, being more like them, we lose.

How much further to the right can we move and still be a different party?

[Claire Beth]

163. I agree n/t

[jsw_81]

268. I agree

The lefties won't be thrilled, but I think Warner/Bayh would be an outstanding ticket that would stand an excellent chance of winning.

Howard Dean, on the other hand, would almost certainly be crushed in a landslide, especially after the "scream" and all the other questionable stuff he said/did this year.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bush was AWOL]

11. No way!

I will do all that I can to keep people like Dean, Dennis Kucinich and Hillary Clinton from becoming the nominee. I'm not a Democrat to lose. We need to find more Democrats like Bill Clinton-meaning they actually know how to beat Republicans. Mark Warner, Bill Richardson, Evan Bayh, Easley, Gov. of Tennessee, Wes Clark or Ed Rendell are people that could and would govern similar to how Bill Clinton did. In the age of terrorism candidates like Howard Dean have no chance of winning on the national level.

[AntiCoup2K4]

69. Again, FUCK the DLC!!!

FUCK Bayh, FUCK Warner, FUCK Richardson, and FUCK anybody who believes "the war on terrorism" is anything but a partnership between Likud Neofascists and Greedy Energy Vampires.

It's time to wake up to that reality and take this party back. Dean and Kucinich are two of the very few in this party capable of doing so. And you can keep Hillary too.

[Bush was AWOL]

76. I see

you want to keep losing.

[AntiCoup2K4]

117. The DLC are the neocon shitbags losing the goddamned elections!

1994...2000 (putting Holy Joe on the ticket)....2002.....2004..

All thanks to From, PNAC Marshall, and the rest of those useless traitors.

[Selatius]

149. I agree, DLC needs to go

They put Clinton in, and he never won the popular vote in any of his elections. Gore gave in, and look what happened in 2002 and Tuesday. Face it. The DLC strategy has dominated the Democratic Party for the 1990s up until now, and we have failed miserably in that timeframe. It is the worst decade for the Democratic Party since the 1920s. Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. Even if Dean isn't the answer, putting another "move to the right" corporate DLCer forward does not seem to make sense. We need a populist that can ignite on working class issues and bread/butter issues.

[DaveinMD]

233. have fun losing elections

we need every vote and ideological purity will lead to losing elections. Dean was rejected by a majority in his own party. He doesn't have broad appeal.

[NYCGirl]

266. Are you having fun? This is the DLC's third loss in a row.

They're sure getting good at it.
:evilfrown:

[zulchzulu]

12. Not a chance in hell that Dean would win in 2008

I love Dean, but there is no way he would win. He needs to be head of the DLC.

We need a southerner to win in this stupid fucking country.

[CTLawGuy]

45. weren't you one of those Kerry cheerleaders that thought

Kerry would beat Bush?

thats what I thought.

[Cha]

184. Flame me but I think Kerry did

beat bush..but we knew they would not give up their power and they aren't.

I'm not one of those .."bush beat us fair and square", types..no way could he could do that.

If Dean would have been our nominee they would have crucified him because he "was a draft dodger"..it's only bush ..who is "proud of his service that gets to be immune..because of our fascist, corportate, manufactured news.

I don't know the answer but I don't think anyone else does at this point, either.

[MemphisTiger]

128. I agree...Dean can say he's from a rural state all he wants

but people here in the south have a very narrow opinion of what rural is...talk slow, own a farm, family values. There is no way Dean can convince voters from the south and plains that he understands rural voters. They all see him as snobby new england. This is unfortunate, but true. I wish he got the nomination, but now he would be damaged goods. WE need now leadership in our party. These folks are not getting the job done.

[TexasSissy]

13. One word: Ha. Boy are you out of touch if you think that Dean,

a nor'easterner, a liberal, who called southern white males rednecks driving pickup trucks with confederate flags, has a chance of getting any of the middle America vote.

Many of his own party didn't even want him to be President.

But, hey, if you think it'd work, go for it. I retain my right to vote for a third party candidate, in that case.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. i'm with you.. that's the faith based decion making crowd talking....

we need someone who can play in dixie...

we may not like it but those are the facts....

[TexasSissy]

24. Yes. We have to face facts. I grew up in the deep deep south.

Just the sight of Dean would make them puke, esp. after he made that slur about white southern males. It just showed he's totally unfamiliar with the south.

[madfloridian]

62. That is not true at all.

I have kids who live in Texas. My daughter decided to join DFA, and her friends are joining her. They were so angry at Kerry for conceding that they made their decision then.

A very Republican law firm there had lawyers working for the Democrats during the election.

He is no more and no less popular than any other Democrat. That is just pure spin.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Dean Is The Generic Northern Democrat Who Doesn't Play In Dixie..

He is no more and no less popular than any other Democrat. That is just pure spin

You just said it...


We have to do better in Dixie or 08 will be like 04 cuz I guarantee you the pugs will nominate someone from the south or southwest...

[madfloridian]

71. My point is our party needs to work on it...by not becoming like them.

It is NOT a Dean thing. It is Democratic party thing. Dean drew huge crowds in Dallas last year as well. He has large DFA groups still formed and growing more in Florida.

It is not Dean, it is the whole party that has problems in the south. I hope we don't try to solve it by becoming more religious and taking their issues.....we are not good at it.

We should have our own values.

[ozone_man]

124. If the primaries had California or New York first

we would probably have had Dean as the candidate. But as you remember, he was ganged up on by several of the DLC candidates like Gephardt and Kerry using the Osama attack ads, etc. I hope that the primary process is corrected by having some of the big states up front. The results of a small state like Iowa are too easily manipulated using dirty politics.

Regarding Dean being liberal, he really isn't and he says so himself. As a governor in Vermont, he received alot of Republican support and lowerd taxes several times. That might not seem impressive, but the state just re-elected a Republican governor by a 20 point margin. Dean is a fiscal conservative and social liberal, both qualities that we need now and that will be even more important in the next few year as the national debt mounts.

Some may perceive Dean's anti Iraq war position as liberal, but it is just common sense. And what did we find out about WMDs and the justification for going to war? Dean was right. Kerry, having approved of the war, was limited in his responses to Bush. Even Bush had a field day with him saying that he criticized Dean for being antiwar, yet he later criticized Bush for waging war without justification. You can't be on both sides of every issue and get elected, except as a senator, that's what they do, and is why they are no good running for president. Their paper trail is 20 years long.

So it is only (Yankee) common sense in not approving of the Iraq war, and that is not being liberal. Supporting health care, gay rights, etc., other social issues can be considered liberal, and Dean is in that respect, but he balances that with being a fiscal conservative.

[Kahuna]

235. And Nader filled Madison Square Garden in 2000. Drawing large crowds..

obviously has nothing to do with electibility.

[TexasSissy]

154. No, it's not. I'm from south La. A person like Dean, esp. after such

a comment, would never get elected in any area that's truly southern with conservatives. Even if the comment were forgiven, it just shows that he's unfamiliar with the south and disconnected from it.

Depends where in Texas your daughter lives. A lot of TX is more like the southwestern region. The upper part is closer to the midwest. The southeastern part is the closest thing to being "south." You know that area - the one where they killed that black man when they chained him and dragged him behind a truck and decapitated him. That area (Jasper, TX). Vidor, TX (southeastern Texas) is the KKK capital of the U.S. They still exist there, I hear.

[TexasSissy]

153. Exactly. I'm sure it went over well w/my south La. white male

conservative brother (who has neither a pickup truck nor a conf. flag).

[LSK]

25. why do we need the south? if we win Ohio - we won

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. we didn't win ohio

and ohio imho is more conservative than Florida....


Think about this....


Look at all the races the Dems have lost in the past hundred years .....


They have one thing in common.... The Dems lost the south....


And because of demographic trends the south is getting more Electoral College Votes with every census...

[ozone_man]

127. But Dean polled better than Kerry in the battleground states

in a matchup against Bush. I assume because they don't like Massachusetts liberals in red states. Dean is not a liberal. He had an A rating from the NRA as governor and was a fiscal conservative.

[TexasSissy]

155. When did he poll better? Way back when, before the nomination?

Reminder: Dean couldn't get even close to the majority of Iowan Democrats to vote for him. He came in third.

[American Tragedy]

220. Who cares if he had an A rating from the NRA

George Bush would automatically get an A+. Even Dean admitted as much in an interview, recognizing that the NRA leadership is firmly with the GOP. And fiscal conservative obviously doesn't mean a damn to people at this point, look at who they just elected.

Trust me, I know that Dean isn't especially liberal. He's notably to the right of me, and though I do like him, I was always slightly bewildered by his status as some sort of progressive icon. People miss the point. It's not what Dean is, it's the way he is perceived, and it doesn't help that he seems to have chronic foot-in-mouth disease. You and I both know how the media would paint him and he would never shake that image.

[ozone_man]

222. I think the match ups were for Kerry/Dean, Kerry/Clark, etc.

Kerry and Dean might make an incompatible pair, but they did better in the battleground states than all the other pairings. The reason, presumably was having Dean on the ticket. He does very well with the main stream conservatives. He's a straight talker from a rural state, not a Washington insider. People pick up on that. In fact, some are not ready to hear that much truth spoken so abruptly. It can be off putting for some.

Edwards did not help Kerry bring in the battle ground states. The map looked the same as the one that Gore had, but lower in popular vote. Dean has an A rating from the NRA, which helps in the Southern or Western states, a vulnerable postion for Kerry with his history of gun control.

I think people will remember Dean as a candidate who had the courage to speak out against the Iraq war when it was a politically dangerous thing to do. Dean was right about the war and even Kerry had to switch positions after he saw his error in voting for the senseless war.

Regardless of whether Dean is a candidate again (I hope he will be), he has made quite an impact on the Democratic Party and his work through DFA may turn this sad Party into something respectable once again.

[mtnester]

170. Our only hope is election reform

one person, one vote

[NYCGirl]

31. What about this statement from Dean calls anyone "rednecks"?

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

http://www.slate.msn.com/id/2090775

Edited to add: AND HE WAS CORRECT ABOUT THAT, TOO!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. whatever dean did or didn't say he won't play in dixie...

Democrat Since Birth

Florida resident since 1970....

[NYCGirl]

44. I respectfully disagree. Only if one believes the RW spin on Dean.

NT

[Bush was AWOL]

77. Which will happen

[NYCGirl]

98. Only if you're a part of the right wing. It shouldn't happen to Democrats!

NT

[NashVegas]

209. More Like DLC Spin

Dean was crucified, right here in this forum, for stating his attempt to reach out to Southern voters in plain language.

[madfloridian]

57. He plays well in many areas.

That is simply not true.

[President Kerry]

116. i'm sad to say... this election wouldn't even have close had Dean run this

time around. it's just the truth folks. this is a conservative country and these are the cards we're dealt. We need to crawl before we can run, and Dean is beyond running. I don't necessarily think we need to win any states in the South, but we do need to make it respectably close, like Kerry did now.

[CTLawGuy]

49. and Kerry did, huh?

whatever,

You were a Kerry cheerleader I bet.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. I supported General Clark...

Edwards was my second choice..

my senator Bob Graham was my third choice..

Kerry was my fourth choice...

[arwalden]

16. Not Gonna Happen.

He can run, but I don't see him becoming the nominee.

[CTLawGuy]

39. I do,

I see Iowa democrats as having learned their lesson, and I see the DLC as losing all credibility.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

17. I love Howard Dean and his passion, but...

...I don't have my head in the sand. He would have lost BIG to the Idiot on Cheif. We were lucky he melted-down in time for Senator Kerry to take the lead.

The man is simply not ready for Prime Time. Leave him for what he does best...Throwing grenades. Very much like Al Sharpton.

[LSK]

18. he better do something about BBV or else hes toast too

[madfloridian]

58. He is the only one who tried. He took up the voting, no one else did.

.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. Dean is a populist, and the Democratic nominee needs to be

a populist.

Many Bush supporters claim they voted Bush because he "says what he means and means what he says," even if they didn't agree with him.

Bush, we know, doesn't really do that at all. But Dean really does. And that has tremendous appeal.

Not only would he have energized the base far more than Kerry, I believe he would have had surprising crossover appeal.

But you know what? Forget about 2008 right now unless you win back the right to have your ballot audited.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

21. I love Howard Dean and his passion, but...

...I don't have my head in the sand. He would have lost BIG to the Idiot on Cheif. We were lucky he melted-down in time for Senator Kerry to take the lead.

The man is simply not ready for Prime Time. Leave him for what he does best...Throwing grenades. Very much like Al Sharpton.

[Justitia]

23. Ahhh...Let the Dean bashing begin anew!

Sorry guys, I supported "Mr Electable" because DEAN CONVINCED ME TO - and that is the ONLY reason.

You do not want to start Dean-bashing all over again, trust me.

I am really holding my tongue over how well the freaking DLC inspired plan worked, with their two DLC darlings.

Good God, my blood is boiling. Dean was the best goddamn thing to happen to this party since the DLC infected it, and yet the Dean shredding happens all over again.

I'll stop now before I pop a blood vessel. :mad:

[tjwash]

32. You are absolutely right Lady Texan...

...but we continue to trot out these career ass kissing, yes men, who would not turn around and fight if they were getting beaten over the head with their own missing spines.

A Dean-Clark ticket would work.

[Justitia]

34. I want an Opposition Party, not a Pandering Party -eom

[tjwash]

56. EXACTLY. That's why we lost this election, when it should have...

...been a landslide. That was the sorriest damn campaign I have ever seen. Kerry went Mike Dukakis on everyone, posing for those stupid pictures and acting like a stoned teenager in a Mountain Dew commercial, refusing to nip the Catholic Church thing off in the bud, refusing to answer the swift boat lies, shamelessly pandering to his group of corporations and special interest groups, and on, and on, and on...

Does anyone actually think Kerry would have raised taxes on the upper five percent? In a pigs eye, he IS the upper five percent. He would have quietly approved shipping jobs offshore, kept the bases and troops in the middle east, and cut funding to social programs like welfare and SSI.

[arewenotdemo]

219. Sounds good to me

But why shouldn't it just as easily be Clark/Dean?

I love that ticket, either way. But since he's from Arkansas the Pukes can't plaster Clark with the New England (Massachusetts) liberal label.

I voted for Dean (rather than Clark) in a DU poll the other day, but this thread has brought me around to reversing the ticket order.

[sugarcookie]

33. My sentiments too

Lady Texan from a fellow Texan.

[Justitia]

35. and inroads into Texas?? Dean came here at least FIVE TIMES

that I was present for.

How many times did these fly-over boys pop by some airplane hangar and say hello???

Texas Dems LOVED Howard Dean, I saw with my own eyes (and checkbook).

[Justitia]

36. and ANOTHER TEXAS thing about Dean -

he physically showed up and threw his unconditional support behind several LOCAL candidates, Richard Morrison, David Van Os, Katy Huber.

Dean called on us to give TOM DELAY a run for his money for godssake!

WHO ELSE CAME TO TEXAS TO DO THAT??????

Don't talk to me about Dean not selling to Texans, that is BULLSHIT.

[sugarcookie]

42. I hope I came accross

that I agree with you 100%...everything you are saying.

[Justitia]

48. you did, loud and clear - thanks!

I've just been doing everything I can to not start blaming people within our own party for this unbelievable loss, and when I see people start tearing apart Dean all over again, I cannot abide it.

[madfloridian]

63. Picture of Dean in Texas. Duped, sorry. Said it did not post. so reposted

[NoPasaran]

142. Hey! I'm in that picture!

The enthusiastic guy over on the left...

Seriously, we love Howard Dean here! He's one of the few Democrats who doesn't write off the South. He says we shouldn't abandon our values, we need to talk about them MORE, because our values of inclusion and helping the less fortunate, are really the values that most Americans share. We just don't talk about them much, so all the voters hear is the GOP's hateful distortion of what we stand for.

Dean is no wild-eyed leftist. Read his book and see if you don't agree with ninety percent or more of what he says.

[Huckebein the Raven]

94. Not a Texan but I agree with you 100%

[neener3]

26. Well done... good read

[CTLawGuy]

41. thank you!

nt

[DemocracyInaction]

29. Let's Run the Head of Diebold

It's the only way we will win. This country is now a joke. It will never have democracy again and it will never have Democrats in charge of anything again. And in so many ways, the American people deserve the suffering that's coming down the pike because their ignorance and disinterest in their government allowed these slime to pemanently get in the door and plant their means of controlling this country. It will only be a matter of time until every state has a repub govenor and a repub legislature.

[Bread and Circus]

30. I'd be on board for that. I'd also like to have Clark on the ticket.

[janx]

38. This is probably a stupid question, but...

is there any way we could start a draft Dean/(Clark?) movement very soon--like NOW?

?

[Crunchy Frog]

214. Janx, I'm sorry, it's a very appealing sounding idea,

but Clark is not going to run as the number two on a Dean ticket.

I doubt that he will run at all, but if he did, I am sure it would be for the top of the ticket.

They are both good men but I just don't think they have compatible personalities.

I really hate to see the '08 primary wars starting only 3 days after the '04 election. Can't this at least wait a couple of years?

[WilliamPitt]

43. You might want to find out if Dean wants to be President

"I never thought it would go this far. I was going to raise my profile, raise health care as an issue, shake up the Democratic Party...but I never thought this would happen. I never thought I could actually win." - Dean, the front-runner, December 2003

[davepc]

46. at least he understood his chances

I like Dean, I really think he "gets it" about reconnecting with our rural base the DLC told to go fuck itself.

But I don't think he's a national candidate.

[CTLawGuy]

47. I believe he does

granted he may not have started his campaign thinking he would get very far. But he loves this country and I believe if we need him (which we do) he will step up for us, (one of the few democrats who will actually do that)

[WilliamPitt]

50. Just make sure in 2008

because in 2003, a lot of people busted their asses for him, and at the moment when it started to get real, he got scared (I think). People have all these pet theories for why Dean lost - the media, the DNC, the devil did him in. Dean didn't want it after December, and that's the way it was. Before you get going on him again, make sure he wants it. If he does, I'm all for him.

[CTLawGuy]

52. I think he would be more prepared to be a frontrunner this time

Dean lost because of "electability". hopefully people won't be so stupid next time around.

[janx]

61. Very good point.

The "electability" BS has at last been shown for the sham it was.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. what red states does Dr. Dean bring to the table?

nt

[madfloridian]

60. Do you really want to talk red states today?

Look at the whole center of the country. We did not exactly bring them in this time, did we? We even had a southerner, pro-war, on the ticket.

[CTLawGuy]

67. all of them

Dean IS what Kerry isn't. A down-to-earth rural guy who is frugal and responsible. He's a guy who inspires his liberal base while being a moderate. He has real accomplishments in Vermont, accomplishments that would appeal to moderate, fiscally conservative Republicans.
He also has genuine postions that he doesn't back away from, Iraq War, tax cuts, health care.

i think many red state could identify with Vermont, if they got to know the people there. It's rural (largest city has 30k people), there are farmers and church goers. It's not the "elitist" center like they would think a Boston or a New York would be. Dean would be fighting in all 50 states with his army of loyal supporters in every state. No, he wouldn't have won everywhere, but he would have stretched Bush thin, maybe causing an upset victory in OH or FL.

He has more going for him than what happened 30 years ago. Did you honestly think that Kerry's vietnam service would impress enough people to win? Why didn't he talk about his 20 year senate career?

Dean balanced budgets, Bush didn't.
Dean provided health care, Bush has not.
Dean was right on the Iraq War from the begining, Bush fucked up.

[dorktv]

152. And with Clark as his VP?

Clark has met with world leaders time and again
Clark served in the military for decades
Clark as VP could run around the world fixing the problems internationally while Dean could stay here at home and fix the home grown problems.
Clark would be the extra oomph in Homeland Security because of his military experience.

[AntiCoup2K4]

73. What Red States did Kerry bring to the table?

Obviously none of them. We don't even need the fucking red states. Just an honest vote count in the Blue states would have been enough this time. The two things in the way of a Democratic victory are 1) Diebold and 2) The neocon moles who call themselves the DLC.

[WilliamPitt]

79. New Hampshire, almost Ohio, almost Iowa

[Justitia]

83. Almost? Almost? Horseshoes now?

[Citizen Kang]

133. Iowa was blue last time...

So was New Mexico. Both are now red. We traded Iowa and New Mexico for New Hampshire. Whoopie.

[CWebster]

65. And your authority is based on

your loyalty to Kerry so he could live out his JFK fantasy and war hero act in the maelstrom of an unethical, illegal barbarian invasion most of the country had growing doubts about....which, of course, was taboo subject at the Democratic convention--although most of the delegates were anti-war.

Nothing to cry in your teacups about from a candidate who suggested that James "we will bomb you back to the stoneage" Baker, Bush's man on the ground in Fla, would be a good choice as Middle-East envoy.

So, after the royal screwing Dean got from his own party in Iowa and Kerry's media powwow and he asked Gore why should he continue with a party that would abuse him so, Gore responded "for the good of the country".

That a Democrat would put the "good of the country" as challenging the Bush administration criminals rather than "for the good of the country" as capitulation.

[sugarcookie]

82. "If he does, I'm all for him"

forgive me Mr. Pitt but I don't believe you for a minute. As you can see I don't have many posts... but I've been here long enough to recall "The 600.00 date." I don't post much, but I am logged in here 24/7. You are the worst kind of Dean hater. You would thrash Dean and his supporters in one breath and then try to smoothe things over with big fat empty words in the next. I recall a really nasty thread that was started here late one night. I went back to find it so I could bookmark it. I couldn't find the post for some reason, even posted an inquiry at ATA to ask if the thread had been deleted. I'm pretty sure someone around here still has it.

I will...give credit where credit is due. You have written some very inspiring atricles but I will forever remember you for that thread.

So excuse me if I don't believe you.

[Justitia]

85. I second that! Mr. Pitt is a Dean basher from what I've read. -eom

[WilliamPitt]

86. I'd like to see it

This "I am a Dean hater" meme is utter and complete bullshit. I like Dean. Quite a lot. It took a long, long time for me to decide between him and Kerry early on. I like him a lot, yet disagree with some of his policy ideas and some of his record. I'm allowed to do that.

I like Dean, but a number of his supporters make me want to vomit, but sadly, every primary candidate has their share of sanctimonious, self-rightous, woe-is-me-victim asshats.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/122403A.shtml

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/052203A.shtml

You also might have noticed that I quoted him in my last article:

Howard Dean recently wrote, "There is more to politics than elections. Thousands of young people have discovered, as generations have before them, their efforts matter. Their actions matter because by getting in the game instead of staying on the sidelines, they are empowered, whether or not their candidate wins. Historically, whether through the campaign of Gene McCarthy in 1968 or John McCain in 2000, the enthusiasm and hard work waned after the election. This time we cannot let that happen. Democracy is the most highly evolved system of government ever created by human beings. And like everything else we create, it will wither and die unless we nurture it."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110504A.shtml

I don't quote people I don't like or respect, unless I intend to skewer them with their own words. Clearly, that isn't the case here.

Find another talking point, this one is fucking garbage.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sugarcookie]

88. I repeat

"I will...give credit where credit is due. You have written some very inspiring articles but I will forever remember you for that thread."

[WilliamPitt]

89. Find the thread

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

91. So you think the mods and admins are covering for me?

That's pretty funny.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

96. I have a penchant for the alert button when I am personally attacked

by people who throw insults when their arguments fail. That's what it's there for, and that's what the rules are there for.

You didn't answer my question: How is it that my threads 'conveniently' disappear?

[Justitia]

99. But it's ok to personally attack Dean supporters?

Wah! Now those "sanctimonious asshats" as you called them, are calling you on your BS and you hide behind your alert button.

Alert! Alert! One of those "sanctimonious asshats" deigns to disagree with me!

Pretty thin skin for a "columnist".

[WilliamPitt]

101. There is a difference between a general comment

and a specific attack against a specific person. But you know that.

Speaking of thin skin, some Dean supporters tend to go completely postal when confronted with criticism of their candidate. Here I speak specifically of you. If you're going to back a guy who isn't himself sure that he wants the job, you should probably develop a thicker skin. If you're going to back a guy who couldn't bring himself to release the records for the only high political office he has ever held, because he wasn't ready to be President, you should probably develop a thicker skin.

If you're going to come at me with a bunch of nonsense which you have no evidence to support, you should definitely develop a thicker skin, because I will embarrass you and out-debate you and generally talk you into a complete twist.

Try sandpaper. It roughens the skin up pretty well, if you can stand the scratching.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sugarcookie]

100. Let me correct the following:

"I went back to find it so I could bookmark it. I couldn't find the post for some reason, even posted an inquiry at ATA to ask if the thread had been deleted."

I posted an inquiry in ATA the next day to see if a thread I could not find could have been deleted.

I'm not accusing Administraion of anything, but it is a fact I made an inquiry about a thread I could not find.

[WilliamPitt]

102. Well

before you start talking about evidence, you should probably have it in hand. I'd really like to see the thread you're talking about. If you can remember any specific details, let me know. I will search for it myself. When was it posted? What was the context?

[sugarcookie]

109. I tried to search but

search is disabled. It was during the pimaries...I believe it may have been evening/night post.

[WilliamPitt]

111. When search comes back on

Let's go look for it.

[sugarcookie]

112. I intend to

I do not recall who started the thread. All our posts are archived right?

[WilliamPitt]

115. They are

I plan to do a search under my name by author using the full archives search. That should bring up every post I've ever made.

[sugarcookie]

121. I've got things to do

for a while this afternoon. When things are back to normal...I will be back to do the search.

edit: Please feel free to search my posts too.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sugarcookie]

134. In all fairness to you Mr. Pitt

the thread I'm referring to was directed at Dean supporters and not Dean himself. That being said...I will still remember that thread.

To be fair to you...I will re word my statement.

"You are the worst kind of hater. You would thrash Dean supporters in one breath and then try to smoothe things over with big fat empty words in the next. I recall a really nasty thread that was started here late one night. I went back to find it so I could bookmark it. I couldn't find the post for some reason, even posted an inquiry at ATA to ask if the thread had been deleted. I'm pretty sure someone around here still has it.

I will...give credit where credit is due. You have written some very inspiring atricles but I will forever remember you for that thread.

Please still feel free to serach my posts. I am not a whiner and didn't cry about anything until Wednesday.

I'm leaveing for the afternoon but I wanted to post this before I left.

[RogueTrooper]

225. I would like to offer Will my support

During the primary I was a big Dean supporter ( and I still am ). William Pitt was no Dean hater. He gave Dean some of his first decent publicity. Just becasuse Will supporterd Kerry and, rightly, fought hard for his candidate, does not make him a Dean hater.

[WilliamPitt]

228. Thanks, RT

It is appreciated.

[NashVegas]

211. I Don't Think He Fully Understood the Nature of the Game

You don't need showbiz to win an election in Vermont. Nationally, you need theatre of high order. I just don't think he's that kind of player.

[Rooktoven]

265. Dean lost because of Trippi

First Iowa was ignored, because Trippi thought it couldn't be won, then too many resources were poured in and the fight was conducted poorly, as if it were a primary state, not a caucus.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

114. Just because he expressed surprise at his outstanding

success, it doesn't necessarily follow that Dean didn't want to be POTUS, Will.

But I'm glad he'll have your support should he decide to try again.

[WilliamPitt]

119. It wasn't surprise

In the context the comments were made, it was honest fear, opr something like it. In December 2003 he was being pushed to release his governorship records. He refused to do so, and said he would rather quit than do so. His campaign crew was floored - here was the frontrunner talking about quitting because of the records.

I don't think there was anything really damaging in the records. I think releasing them would have been one more step towards the nomination, a step that for whatever reason he wasn't ready to take.

Below, you will soon find 15 posts attacking me for 'bashing' Dean, along with claims that I 'hate' him. Ignore them. I like Dean. But I make these comments because if we're going to push him for the nomination in 2008, we need to make sure he wants it. Personally, I think 2004 was his coming-out party, and if he wants it, he will make an awe-inspiring candidate. Certainly, he knows what to expect this time, and his crew will be all the more prepared for it. If it happens, it will be a sight to see.

[janx]

123. I remember the context, etc.

It doesn't matter much now. What's more important is the fact that he's working hard with other Democrats to grow the party. He's very dedicated.

So I agree with you that he has cultivated both the experience and connections he needs.

I only wish we could start today, right this minute!

[WilliamPitt]

126. Exactly right

Let me put a question to you:

If given the choice between the possibility of a Presidential nomination for Dean, or an absolute certainty of him being Chhairman of the Party (i.e. he definitely gets the job), which would you choose?

[janx]

130. Tough call. I know that Dean would probably have more

power as party chair, in one sense, and I know that DFA is probably the most powerful Dem engine going--or certainly will be by the next election.

But I also know that a lot of people who were turned off by Kerry's nomination find Dean's populism and fiscal conservatism very refreshing. I think he'd have an excellent chance if the party gave him their full support.

So for now, I don't know.

[madfloridian]

146. I don't think you bash Dean. You do get aggressive with us at times.

I think you know that. You change a lot. There are a few aggressive Dean folks, but most of us are pretty decent. You have gotten ugly with me a few times, but it was because of what most recognize now....that Dean was under pressure from the party to drop out. His own party. I think he has been gracious. You said we were whining, but it was real.

I agree about the records. Turns out there were only 1/3 of what the media (can you say other candidates) were reporting. I think he was honestly stunned that a governor would be forced to release private letters, etc.

I find it to his credit. Can you ever imagine Jeb having to release his? All hell would break loose.

The fact that Dean stands up for things that matter may keep him from being a candidate...I hope not.. but it might.

[Gyre]

51. Dean in 2008; Yes!

BUT. The Voting problem needs to be addressed or Dean has same chance as Kerry did; precisely zero.

Gyre

[janx]

136. YEEAAGGHH!

n/t

[janx]

59. "What You Won't Hear on TV Today"

http://www.democracyforamerica.com

Governor Howard Dean sent this message to Democracy for America supporters today.

Montana, one of the reddest states, has a new Democratic governor.

First-time candidates for state legislatures from Hawaii to Connecticut beat incumbent Republicans.

And a record number of us voted to change course—more Americans voted against George Bush than any sitting president in history.

Today is not an ending.

Regardless of the outcome yesterday, we have begun to revive our democracy. While we did not get the result we wanted in the presidential race, we laid the groundwork for a new generation of Democratic leaders.

Democracy for America trained thousands of organizers and brought new leadership into the political process. And down the ballot, in state after state, we elected Dean Dozen candidates who will be the rising stars of the Democratic Party in years ahead.

Tens of millions of us are disappointed today because we put so much of ourselves into this election. We donated money, we talked to friends, we knocked on doors. We invested ourselves in the political process.

That process does not end today. These are not short-term investments. We will only create lasting change if that sense of obligation and responsibility becomes a permanent part of our lives.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

We will not be silent.

Thank you for everything you did for our cause in this election. But we are not stopping here.

Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

[madfloridian]

64. Great picture of Dean in TX, in the SOUTH.

He was always welcomed there, so I get tired of hearing that.

[abburdlen]

70. I was as anti-dean

during the primaries for a number of reasons includingthe electabilty issues.

I've come around a great deal and warmed to much of dean's strenghts but the Iowa scream unfortuantly will follow him forever.
His outspokeness and organization however are exactly what's needed in the DNC.

[NYCGirl]

72. He's started to self-deprecatingly use the "scream" to his advantage

Dean's sure learned a lot in a year. His TV appearances have been incredible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. without getting into the merits or demerits of dr. dean i'll make an

assertion...

no non southern Democrat has won the White House in forty four years....

[janx]

78. That's because many Southerners used to be Democrats,

to a large degree.

Now many of them are Republicans.

[NYCGirl]

80. And the Red Sox didn't win a World Series since like 1918...

but they won because they had a great team this season.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. I Don' t Have 86 Years To Wait For Another Democratic President

nt


And I don't have eighty six years to wait for a World Series team to recover from a 0-3 defecit...

[NYCGirl]

93. Please try not to be quite so literal. You know what I mean.

NT

[madfloridian]

84. We have to stop using the same spin words every year!

We have to stop saying no Democrat has won without being from the south. It is self-fulfilling prophecy, and it is just because we keep saying it.

We have got to stop trying to pander to the Southern fundamentalists. I am one of them, and we ain't stupid!

Just talk to folks plainly, and you might be surprised. Choose the right words to explain to them. Don't pander.

ALL of our Democrats do this, and it is not working. Let's try something different.

[janx]

135. Yeah, it's a fairly provincial and limited mindset.

The American people aren't *that* provincial, unless the media and politicians keep pounding the idea home as if it were truth.

[AntiCoup2K4]

275. Then isn't it about time that shit changed?

it's not just the Dems. Nixon and Reagan are the only presidents of either party to not come from the South in my lifetime. That is, if you believe the Bushes are from Texas. And Ford was accidental, so he doesn't count.

No one region should EVER have that much power in politics. Especially if it's the part of the country where so many brainwashed idiots happen to live.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CTLawGuy]

139. maybe your judgement is a little mistaken

considering you backed John "Bob Dole" Kerry.

[killbotfactory]

145. It wasn't Kerry's fault, he served in Nam!

It was the diebold machines/media/boogeyman/enchilada sauce's fault.

Kerry ran a perfect campaign.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kazak]

103. I'm guessing Hillary...

will breeze through the primaries.

:shrug:

[NYCGirl]

104. I hope you're guessing wrong. (eom)

NT

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. Then I Guess We Wil Have To Wait Till 2012 For A Winner

nt

[madfloridian]

118. Breeze through the primaries and then what?

How much do you think southern fundamentalists love her?

We have a problem, you know.

[a new day]

107. Dean is doing something to build the party

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/11/03/what_you_wont_hear_on_tv_today.php

Al Fromm and the DLC were a flash in the pan that would never have gotten off the ground without the exceptional charisma of Bill Clinton, charisma that allowed and allows him to betray Democratic ideals and still be revered by millions. If he wanted to run on the Socialist Labor ticket, he'd be a winner. After Bill, the DLCs best shots were that dynamic duo of Al Gore and Joe Lieberman, that says it all.

Dr. Dean was and is the real deal. Let me know where I sign up.

[Julien Sorel]

108. Dean is finished. This election finished him.

He is Mr. Gay civil Unions. He truly is a "Northeastern liberal." From a tiny ass state.

Name one state Kerry lost that Dean would carry.


The only people who don't seem to understand that Dean is a loser in capital letters are Dean, and his core of True Believers. Too many Democrats are simply stupid, and permanently trapped in some political masturbation fantasy where their great candidate will turn electoral politics on its head and, through the force of their personality, make people vote for them even though the people disagree with them on fundamental issues and values.


It's hilarious that the trolls who unmasked were all Dean supporters. Why do you think that is? No, I used the wrong word: "Think." This isn't about thinking. This is about people who lack the intellectual maturity to objectively look at facts and reach a supportable conclusion.

I'm off to go watch "The Incredibles." It's a cartoon, but it has more realism than the idea of Howard Dean being a winning candidate anywhere besides a tiny ass state full of liberals.

[NYCGirl]

110. Gee, do you think that the "unmasked trolls" LIED

about being Dean supporters, or did you buy that pile of crap, too?

[ozone_man]

129. That may be true for your candidate,

going back to consulting for homeland security. Dean has been busy reshaping the Democratic Party, out of the ashes we will rise again, but not with a DLC candidate. Whether Dean is ever a candidate again is not the point. He is doing something to change the party in the direction that it needs to change.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1327147&mesg_id=1328151&page=

[CTLawGuy]

138. your dickhead candidiate

lost to the worst president in US history during a failed war and a terrible economy. I laugh at your judgement about who could win.

All he had was "I served in Vietnam" Give me a fucking break.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

143. billy bunter was a clarkie...

He fell behind our nominee after the primaries...


His assessment was vituperative as is his style but the Electoral College map doesn't favor a governor from a small northeatern state...


I am profoundly worried about our propensity for losing elections... Folks are counting on us...

I can take care of myself but the poor, the elderly, the infirm, the marginalized need a defender and as long as we keep losing elections they will have to fend for themself...

[Guaranteed]

175. ROFL Ohio. Florida.

Iowa.

[Julien Sorel]

178. What makes Dean better than Kerry in Ohio or Florida?

And since we're "ROFLing", Kerry beat Dean like a red headed stepchild in Iowa, but Dean would carry Iowa when Kerry did not?

[madfloridian]

179. He would have as good a chance.

And don't start with Iowa. They were being bombarded with message for months about Dean, Judy, abortions, mental stability.

[Julien Sorel]

181. "As good a chance" isn't good enough, in case you didn't notice.

And after the negative crap Kerry ran against, you are complaining about what happened to Dean in Iowa, yet seriously putting him forward as an improvement over Kerry? Christ.

[madfloridian]

182. 5 against 1 in the state they had to win.

Actually 6 against 1 with Clinton calling for Clark, saying Dean was unelectable for signing the civil unions bill.

One small most white state should not choose our nominee...never again.

[Julien Sorel]

185. Well, it's going to.

And Dean spent the most money, got the most media coverage: and he lost. Not only did he lose, but Kerry won. So again, where is the evidence that Dean would do better in Iowa -- or any other state except mighty Vermont -- than Kerry did?

And since you are Dean's number one cheerleader, perhaps you can tell me why the people who were long term moles here were all Deanites? To a person?

[madfloridian]

186. Could you list them? I missed that.

How do you know they were Dean supporters? If you are speaking of some who post at a small forum starting with the word People, most of them do not even like Dean, never did. I get attacked there all the time for being a Dean supporter. It long ago stopped being that way.

Me...yes.... #1 supporter and proud of it. So is my hubby and all of our daughters, and one of our sons.

I make no apologies to you or anyone for that. You need to get over your anger, BB, Dean never hurt you.

Your candidate had Clinton's support, and he had to drop out as well. Right?

Again...5 against 1, no 6 against 1. They really brought that guy down...Geez, no wonder he screamed.

Dean in 2008

[Julien Sorel]

189. You failed to answer a single question.

Shocking.

My "anger" at Dean revolves around the simple fact that he's a bomb as a candidate. It is a mistake to assume that, because you are involved with Dean for emotional reasons, those of us who look at him and see a big "L" on his forehead dislike him for any other reason except that "L". Anger has nothing to do with it.

As for the moles, there were several threads about them here and in the Lounge. The biggest name was "seventhson," who hated Clark and Kerry, and "supported" Dean, and invested several thousand posts in attacking Dean's opponents. I suggest you search for those threads.

[madfloridian]

193. Oooh! That is very vicious, BB. I don't think I deserve it.

My "emotional" attachment is called "inspiration", BB. My hubby who is even older than I am feels the very same way. Even our granddaughter likes him..

It is called "hope."

Getting ugly with me will not change the fact that Dean is now a player in the party, and I do hate to say it but he has a huge W on his forehead....as in "winner".

They made a mistake in what they did in Iowa. They really did. It will come back to haunt our party....not because Dean had to be the nominee..

It was the fact that Democrats should not attempt to gang up and destroy fellow Democrats....who had a long history of centrism.

I am so sorry you are so angry because we are inspired by DFA, but first by its founder. I really don't understand why.

[Julien Sorel]

194. You still haven't answered a single question.

All that typing, and nothing to show for it.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

195. I was a Dean supporter, but this is all beside the point

I don't think our problem comes down to what candidates we have. I still like Dean very much and I would certainly support him if he decided to throw his hat in the ring again, but we have a much larger problem than simply which candidate to field next time.

For whatever reason, we have failed to reach a huge segment of the electorate. These people vote against their own interests for the sake of "moral values," and we have yet to produce a candidate --- or even an argument --- with the ability to reach them and show them a better way that resonates with them and seems real to them.

I think that rather than pinning our hopes on a particular candidate, we need to think a few steps ahead of the curve and try to develop consistent policies that will be at the ready when the time is right. Eventually, the pendulum will swing away from the hard-right Republicanism we are living with right now, and when it runs its course, we need to be prepared to capitalize on that eventuality from a position of strength. We need to think decades ahead, not just to the next election.

Even though he's a "Democrat", crazy Zell Miller's speech at the RNC was, to me, the perfect distillation of where the Republican party is at right now. But that type of psychotic, jingoistic, frothing at the mouth, Cotton Hill stuff won't last forever. It's up to us to figure out what kind of alternative to that people are going to seek out when that stuff gets old, which it will. However, if our alternative is just a single candidate, it won't take full advantage of that eventual opportunity. People will want not just something new, but something that appears viable. It's up to us to try and figure out what that is so that we can be ready not only to offer it, but to have a solid foundation built beneath it.

I don't have anything against Kerry or the way he ran his campaign. He beat Bush decisively in every debate, and he certainly had the experience and breadth of knowledge necessary to be commander-in-chief, no question about it. I simply think that our party, in its current incarnation, simply can't get elected right now on a national level, and this is going to take more than a single candidate to correct. Make no mistake about it: We couldn't beat the worst president in US history, who had a lousy economy and a fuckup of a war to his credit. I don't believe that Bush cheated in order to bring that about, either. We got beaten all by ourselves with no help from anybody, and we need to take an unflinching look in the mirror as a party and get real about where we really are and what we need to do to fix it, or we'll go the way of the Whigs.

EDITED: To correct spelling and grammatical errors that were the result of my deeply moving stream-of-consciousness writing style.

[Julien Sorel]

196. I agree with parts of what you say.

It isn't really about the candidate -- as a person. But the candidate as a collection of parts, some of them demographic, some of them historical, that's a huge deal. If you look at the electoral map of the last two elections, it pretty much screams out that we have a problem in one of the regions of this country, and a candidate who follows the Kerry/Dukakis mold is going to have an uphill battle.

I like Kerry. I think he ran a solid campaign tactically. But he's from the wrong area of the country, both historically and politically -- period.


It took the Republicans several election cycles to build the appeal they now have in the South. First, Wallace peeled away the Dixiecrats, then Nixon (Californian -- an important detail) started converting them to Republicans, and finally Reagan (another Californian) codified it.

Why is it important that both Nixon and Reagan were Californians? Because it shows how enduring the prejudices and values that rule the South are: anyone who appeals to them is going to get a huge chunk of votes; anyone who cannot is simply out of the loop. That's Kerry, unfortunately; that was Dukakis; that was Mondale -- and it damn sure would be Dean.

I actually agree with what Dean says with regards to organizing locally and building from the ground up. But Dean as a presidential candidate? No. We've been down that road too many times before, and it isn't a fun ride.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

197. I don't know how it happened

Honestly, I don't know how or when the Northeast became persona non grata to most of the voting public, but it's unfortunate that we have to basically disqualify an entire region from producing a candidate based on the fact that another region dislikes them. I live in New York City, so it kind of stings to be perfectly honest, but that's neither here nor there.

Despite our differences over which candidates we liked, I think you and I agree that the party needs to look at some very ugly realities and start working from there. I've been doing a lot of homework since Wednesday on the history of the Republican party since 1964, and I have to say that I see a lot there that we Dems should really try to pay attention to, just as you've mentioned. I certainly don't relish the idea of building this party from the ground up over the next 40 years, but I honestly don't see what other alternatives exist.

I mean, if we can't sell people on affordable healthcare, raising the minimum wage, and the fact that Iraq is a clusterfuck and a half, then we have very, very serious problems, and they won't fix themselves.

[janx]

198. It won't take 40 years. We could get a decent handle on it

in 10 and could make inroads in 4.

The real "rebuilding" that the Republicans did happened in the late 80's through the 90's. Religious southerners infiltrated the party and started electing others like themselves, from the ground up.

They completed this feat in around 20 years.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

201. From your lips to god's ears, my friend

We've got a lot of heavy lifting to do.

[janx]

204. Yeah, and you're right in that it won't happen overnight.

But even tiny, regular contributions to DFA will help. ;-)

[eridani]

278. What do you mean we can't sell people on raising minimum wage?

60% of the people who VOTED FOR BUSH in Florida helped to pass an initiative that not only raised the minimum wage, but indexed it to inflation. So it would seem that the idea has already sold itself. Ditto universal health care, if you believe the Pew Foundation and many other surveys.

WTF is the matter with a party that can't translate these widely approved ideas into policies?

[Guaranteed]

191. The electability meme doesn't work in a general election. nt

[killbotfactory]

131. Dean had the right strategy from the start

People prefer strong and wrong to weak and right. If you back up your opinions with something resembling rational thought, aren't ashamed of it, and refuse to back down, people will respect you even if they disagree with you. Bush snookered people into thinking he had strongly held convinctions, and painted Kerry as a flip-flopper. Even though most people think this country is heading in the wrong direction, they voted for him anyway because he presented himself as strong.

The Iraq war was going to be a disaster. This was easily predictable, but our party leaders shit their pants in the face or republican propaganda and went along with it anyway. If Kerry had opposed the Iraq War Resolution, he would have had more credibility in attacking Bush. The worst Bush attacks about flip/flopping worked because they had a tinge of truth to them.

We couldn't hide from the Gay Marraige issue. Dean went through this in Vermont, took hell for it, and lived to see another day. We had to make our case, explain it as a civil rights issue, and make people realize it's not going to destroy the institution of marriage, only give homosexuals equal rights under the law.

You can't promise everything to everybody. If you want to balance the budget, you're going to have to raise taxes or restructer the tax code significantly. You can't go around promising tax cuts, health care for all, more special ops and troops, fully funding NCLB, and increasing money for Homeland Security. It may be true, but you don't look credible to the cursory examination from ordinary people.

NCLB. We could have pointed out it's failures as legislation, besides not being funded. Kerry couldn't because he agreed with it. That made his position pretty weak, and let Bush trumpet it as a solution to everything.

We don't need someone who is perceived as hostile to gun owners.

You need to get the candidates credibility off the table. People weren't voting on the issues, they agreed with democrats for the majority of them. They voted on petty personality issues because the Bush team focused on character assassination.

Could Dean have done it? I don't know. He had the right strategy, though.

[janx]

132. kick

[NewYorkerfromMass]

137. I guess it's now GD: Primary Campaign 2008. nt

[sangh0]

236. I guess some people miss the solidarity of GDP2000

.

[janx]

140. kick

[Richardson08]

141. No Dean

[paulk]

144. this thread is pretty funny

Considering the acrimony unleashed here (and during the primaries) -
do you really think Dean would make a good candidate?

[madfloridian]

147. Yes.

The source of most of the acrimony is not allowed to be discussed. I am not acrimonious first, but I do stand up when someone goes after me. :evilgrin:

[paulk]

158. but it's a valid point

Dean was a very divisive candidate, as were many of his supporters.

How can you divide your own party and win an election?

[janx]

168. There were divisions here because he held the lead for so

long. People who supported other candidates didn't like the enthusiam too much.


Dean did not divide his own party--that's an extreme exaggeration.

[paulk]

200. don't dismiss the idea so readily

many voters where turned off from Dean for exactly the reasons many of his followers were turned on. What you saw as enthusiasm, many others saw as something bordering on fanaticism.

A large part of Dr. Dean's campaign (especially early on) focused on attacking the Democratic Party establishment. I don't think that was completely a bad thing, but it did alienate a lot of people - people who he would have eventually needed to win the nomination.

[madfloridian]

212. He needed to attack the establishment. Of course he did.

The "establishment" has nearly destroyed our party, taking us to war, letting the Repubs do away with Social Security and Medicare.
Letting them pass the NCLB to destroy the public school system.

Why do you think half a million folks are still with DFA? Because he attacked the establishment.

[janx]

213. People were attacking other people in these forums

ad infinitum. Once Dean was out, the Edwards/Clark supporters were duking it out. At other times it was composed of other factions.

As for the general attack (though I would call it legitimate criticism rather than attack) of the Democratic establishment--I agree to an extent. He pissed of some DC insiders. But he did it with good reason, and I don't think Kerry would have done as well as he did had he not realized that he had to be stronger. So I agree with you there, provided that's what you meant. ;-)

[paulk]

216. in retrospect I feel the "criticism" was a good thing

though I admit at the time it pissed me off - not because I'm a fan of the DLC; I just felt Dean's reasons had more to do with winning the nomination than shaking up the Dem. Party establishment. It's just my innate distrust of politicians, I guess. Whatever his motives, Dean's kick in the ass turned out to be just what the party needed.

[janx]

218. I would be dishonest if I didn't agree with you that it had a lot

to do with Dean's wanting the nomination. And it really angered a lot of people; it was something that just wasn't "done"... ;-)

But I'm still glad he did it, and I do believe he wanted to fire up the race.

In any case, I'm glad you're not angry now.

[Kahuna]

232. Calling congressional Dems coakroaches is divisive.... He criticized..

his own party openly for the repukes to use against them later. Dean had a scorched earth policy. It was all about him and no one else mattered. How can someone who gives the opposition ammunition to use against his fellow Democrats be trusted to lead the party? I do not want Dean as President or DNC chair. What I do want him to do is run for Jeffords senate seat in '06. He can be very useful that way.

[madfloridian]

237. Well, now we can be honest about it.

We now know more about what all happened. I am amazed that it is the same people who just keep on about his criticism of the party. Maybe that is why Clinton called Dean supporters to tell them to vote for Clark because Dean signed the civil unions bill and was thus unelectable.

However, consider the irony in this...Clark said he was for civil unions.

I don't care about the primaries, I won't bring it up. However, I will defend someone who was ganged up on 6 to 1 by his own party. 5 candidates and an ex-president. I doubt very few candidates ever had that many jump on them at once.

Dean was not a perfect candidate. You guys, the ones who supported Clark who keep flat out expressing your dislike of Dean......have you noticed we do not come out and say that about Clark. Some expressed concerns about his stances because he was so recently a Democrat, but I never saw the kind of thing directed toward him.
I think maybe we are a little kinder there.

I have never said the things you guys say about Dean over and over. We knew what happened but we never said such things about Clark.

Dean should have criticized the party. My God, since when is that wrong? They took us to war, they are allowing our Medicare and Social Security to be sold down the river, and the public schools gutted through the NCLB. They needed to be criticized.

It should not have been 6 against 1 in Iowa. That was dead wrong. And it is dead wrong they are not standing up for us in the voting problems.

[janx]

242. He didn't say "congressional Dems" would be scurrying like

cockroaches. He referred to "members of Congress" scurrying like cockroaches. When asked later who he was specifically referring to, he mentioned the right wing members and those who supported them.

The spin of "congressional Dems" was injected by people who were for candidates other than Dean.

If you would like to disagree with me, please feel free to post the transcript.

I'm really tired of going over this again and again. It's far past too late to have to keep doing so.

Edit: I tried to post the transcript so you could see it; it's tougher to find than I thought, but there are enough quotes from it on various sites.

[madfloridian]

207. Not true. It happened at a certain time.

Actually there was very little disagreement about Dean at all here until a certain time line in the primaries. It happened with a bang. It was not us. We just defended ourselves. Still do. Just a small group, but very intense.

[frustrated_lefty]

276. Was it that it was he was "divisive,"

or that he drove his supporters to truly consider what they valued?

[sampsonblk]

148. Dean was one of our few bright spots of this cycle

Wes Clark is a great man, but not a great campaigner. I didn't support Dean during the primaries but he was the only one who really woke our party up and gave us a chance.

[Ripley]

150. Yes.

Dean/Obama. If liberals don't have the guts to pick some passionate candidates...let them stew in their own oatmeal loser stew.

[janx]

151. I'd love to see Obama in the running, but he's just

beginning his senate career.

[Ripley]

159. That's what I keep hearing janx....but dammit!

If everyone was excited and pumped up by him as a speaker...why do we have to wait? I think the Democrats need to think and act "out of the box" next time or fuggetaboutit.

[janx]

162. Maybe we don't, and I see your point. But it'll be up to him.

He's such an inspirational and principled guy--I'd love it if he would consider it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

169. Kinda like Edwards, you mean?

Or Hillary, for that matter?

[janx]

171. How so? Are they just beginning their Senate careers?

?

(I guess I miss your point.)

[AntiCoup2K4]

174. Edwards was on Gore's "short list" in 2000 before his first term was.....

....half complete. And Hillary was mentioned as a possible Presidential candidate before she ever took her oath of office as Senator. So if they are considered viable candidates, as Edwards obviously was, and Hillary continues to be for some folks (though not myself) then why not Obama?

[janx]

176. I'd love it if he would consider it. But that's a BIG "if."

It would be up to him.

[candy331]

217. And so was Edwardsbut that didn't sem to stop his VP nomination

did it?

[dorktv]

156. I agree that Dean should be the nominee in 2008.

Dean will have what he did not have in this election cycle.

1. Ground troops that now know how handle campaigns. When he runs in 2007 for 2008, the ground troops will have had 2 elections behind them.
2. DFA has chapter groups all over the country and they meet together every month and stay in contact with one another.
3. Dean will be much more ready this time around to handle the pressure. Dean was not expecting to get where he did and it showed.
4. Dean has the record as governor to back him up on being fiscally responsible.
5. The message will be much different next time. Dean has been working on using George Lakoff's work in his speeches and positions and by the time 2008 comes around...so will the rest of us. Baby Taxing Conservatives anyone?
6. Dean inspires MASSIVE emotions..you hated him or you love him. And that is something we need. How many people do you know were just voting Kerry because Bush sucks?
7. Iowa and New Hampshire are not going to be the first to nominate our candidate. Time to move on.

[janx]

160. Iowa loves being the first to vote in the primaries. How would

we have any control over that? Also, what if the DNC decides to compress the primaries again?

[dorktv]

165. I would not think that there would be anything

wrong with compressing the primaries to one day really.

[HootieMcBoob]

157. Bad idea

Don't get me wrong I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dr. Dean but I don't think he's a good candidate for President. He might make a great head of the Democratic Party I could definitely get behind that, but I think Wes Clark would be great in 2008. It's getting way ahead of ourselves to start thinking about that now though. I'm gonna concentrate on electing Democrats to local offices here in New York. I want a new Governor: Eliot Spitzer anyone? And a new Mayor!!!!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

166. We cannot win with an East Coast person who can be painted a liberal.

I know he's not really a liberal but try telling anybody that.

[AntiCoup2K4]

172. Dean's record as Vermont governor proves he's not "liberal"

They were only able to paint him with that brush because he opposed Junior's dumbass war, and because he signed the first civil unions bill. Within 4 years from now, I suspect such bills will be common in at least the sane states, and even Junior (in a recent flip flop) said he wasn't opposed to civil unions. And Iraq can get only worse, as will be the case with any other PNAC wars. Leaving Howard Dean looking pretty damn prophetic by the time the next election cycle starts up.

And why a Dean/Obama ticket?

Because these are the two candidates that reasonable Republicans have told me personally impresses them. So here's your unity ticket - without a total sellout to neocon DLC bullshit

Dean/Obama '08!!

[Endangered Specie]

167. I see the primary in-fighting and flamefest has begun again.

That didnt take long.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

173. Absolutely!

He needs to stay in the spotlight, telling the truth about the Bush Administration, just as he has done during the campaign. Democracy in America can become the liberal group that news shows come to ask questions.

[Individualist]

190. Positively

I agree with your post. :toast:

[Beacho]

180. Dean delegate from Pierce County washington

I'm on board!

[Hatalles]

187. Bush Supporters On Howard Dean

Remember during the primaries when the MSM talking points concerned who would have the best chance against Bush? Kerry, Edwards, or Dean? The MSM was hell bent on fashioning Dean as a "crazy-man" and the RW's attitude to Dean was basically "bring it on" -- they spouted on about how they actually hoped Dean won the primary so Bush would have the greatest chance of victory.

It wasn't until during the campaign, I began hearing more and more often that Dean scared the GOP.

Consider that Dean was one of the few candidates that was against the Iraq War from the very beginning. Consider that he was the candidate that brought in the youth vote. Consider that he was the man that energized the party. Dean can turn ANGER and FRUSTRATION into POSITIVE ENERGY.

He is seen as a man just as determined and focused as Bush. The flip-flop label would never have stuck to Dean. And the liberal label? Howard Dean handled that marvelously. Like darboy said, "We learned on Tuesday that 'electability' is bullshit." If we went with our gut, we would have learned Dean had a better shot at Bush than anyone else.

Kerry had his whole Vietnam swift boat commander image going for him, sure. But just look how the Bush machine crushed that image. How were they able to make a high-school cheerleader rich flunky daddy's boy look tougher than a decorated Vietnam War Vet?

Dean had the tough image going for him and he didn't need a soldier's past to show it -- he could have stood straight across Bush during those three debates and beat Bush on all grounds. Dean was and is a powerful force.

Nominate him and let him destroy Bush/Cheney.

The K/E team was caught in a quagmire of their own -- they voted for authorization of the war and the Patriot Act. How could we, liberals, democracts, independents, critical-thinkers! support these guys?

We were united against defeating Bush -- but Dr. Dean was actually a candidate we could feel passionate about voting for. We didn't need to worry about electability

[Guaranteed]

192. Great post. nt

[Milo_Bloom]

188. HELL YEAH

Yep, according to their records myself and my fiance were the very first donors to the Dean campaign. (and she even got to introduce speak for Dean at a rally in LA http://homepage.mac.com/brianflemming/howard_dean/PhotoAlbum22.html

[NYCGirl]

199. Those pictures are great. Thank you for sharing them with us!

:yourock:

[madfloridian]

210. What great pictures! Love your comments.

Thanks so much for sharing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

202. The Triumph Of Hope Over Experience...

The defintion of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result...

The last time a northeastern Democrat won the White House was 1960....

That's a long time ago...

Bookmark this post...

Unless we nominate a candidate who can be competitive in the south and southwest we will be having these "what went wrong" discussions in 2008....

[dorktv]

203. Hmmm...seem to remember another guy who ran in

1976, lost the primary and then won in 1980...hmmmmmmmmm...Oh yes REAGAN!

Dean has the troops on the ground and four years to grow them AND the guts to do it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

205. What does Reagan have to do with the fact that a northeastern

Democrat hasn't won the White House since 1960 and the Democrats need to be competitive in the south and southwest to win a presidential election?

Also, Reagan almost knocked off a sitting president in 1976... He came into the Republican convention that year within striking distance in the delegate count of Gerald Ford...

And he was the former governor of the most populous state in the union to boot...

I am really getting frustrated by our inabilty to win national elections... If we were a basketball team we would be the hapless Los Angeles Clippers...

[AuntPatsy]

206. Quit letting the media along with this adminstration fool all of you

up North that they reps have the southerns down pat, it just isn't the truth...I know, I live down here and it is fairly even split, except this year, I would definatly say that Texas went for Kerry, I have talked to a few people that were obvious Kerry supporters, and they have in turned told me other stories of those that know that were defranchised easily...

Some of these people just did not know how votin trully works, many first time voters, many were turned away from voting even with voting cards with ids to match the address by the very people that are supposed to be unbiased running these voting places...

I was shocked to realize that they just left defeated not knowing they could still vote and have the info checked later..

Voter fraud in Texas was in invidence as well....Kerry, the yankee northern liberal from Mass had a very huge share of the voting populace here...

As always, we got ignored and I am sure many other so called red states did as well....

[janx]

208. I've never been fooled by that.

And thanks for pointing it out. The Republicans and the media like to put people into easy categories. It's insulting.

[Uzybone]

240. Texas went for Kerry???

Let me guess, you are a Dean supporter. With or without fraud and intimidation, there is no way more Texas supported Democrats over Bush.

[Guaranteed]

215. Kick nt

[ScottNeelan]

224. A Little Story...

I don't know how typical this is, but I'll tell it anyway. I'm living right in the middle of the "red" section of Oregon (66% of voters here were for Bush, 33% for Kerry). Every one of my friends that I have day to day contact with is a Republican. Care to know how many of 'em voted for Bush? Each and every one of them. Care to guess how many of 'em would've voted for Dean? Every single one of 'em. In fact, one of them actually complained about "having to vote for Bush" and actualy said that she'd rather have been able to vote for Dean.

You know what appeals to them about Dean? He said what he meant, stood by his words and his decisions, and never backed down. Guess what? That's what the people like and respect in a candidate. Not electability. Not intellectualism bordering on snobbery. Not some "elitist" position (all things attributed, despite fairness or accuracy, to our last two candidates). That's what turns most American's OFF of a candidate. They don't want a smart man, they want Mr. Average Joe. They want a candidate that can state his position clearly, consicely, in language they can understand. They want a man of action, of tangible things, not of theories and ideas.

Don't discount Dean's appeal to the average voter. DU is hardly a good brfeakdown of the average voter spectrum. We also can't afford to lose in 2008. We can't hold vague, relative ideas like electability up as the standard for a candidate. DEan may not be the right choice overall. 2008 is still awhile off. But we can't dismiss the idea that maybe it's a good idea to let the good doctor take another shot at the White House.

[janx]

226. kick

[NYCGirl]

230. I went to Dean's book signing here in Greenwich Village, NYC

a few weeks ago. After his talk, during the Q&A period, a man stood up and said, "I'm voting for Bush now, but I really admire you. You stand up for what you think; you're brave."

After the applause from the rabidly Democratic crowd, Dean answered, "Thank you. But you're the brave one for standing up and admitting you're voting for Bush." It got a big laugh.

[madfloridian]

231. LOL

That is funny.

[Missy Vixen]

241. Our Republican neighbor also wanted to vote for Dean

>In fact, one of them actually complained about "having to vote for Bush" and actualy said that she'd rather have been able to vote for Dean.<

She loved Dean. Why? He's a fiscal conservative and brutally honest about the flaws of the Democratic Party. She even bought into his social programs. Believe me, it was flabbergasting.

The neighbor would not vote for Kerry, no matter how many times I tried reasoning with her on his record.

Dean, even though a former governor, was an "outsider". He had massive appeal to disenfranchised Republicans as well as Democrats. He also raised money hand over fist with small donations that caused those donating to feel that they had a personal stake in his success.

If he wants to run again, let him.

Julie

[catbert836]

227. No more Northeastern Liberals!

We've just about had it from that kind of candidate. Another could destroy the party.

[frustrated_lefty]

277. Whaaaaa?

Northeastern, liberal Dean was the first governor to promote and enable civil unions. I've got about 5 pages of truly neutral, but beneficial policies, he pursued and achieved. Jesus, he balanced the state budget. We need that particular talent at the moment.

[DinahMoeHum]

234. Sorry, but I'd rather have him as head of the DNC/DLC. . .

A kingmaker, not a candidate.

:kick:

[gulfcoastliberal]

238. I'll 238d this motion

Dean is amazing, a truthspeaker, and a genuine person.

[madfloridian]

239. Moot issue really. The party will never let him run....civil unions bill.

They never will. The other candidates sort of gave lip service, Dean put his money where his mouth is.

The others skirted the abortion issue, Dean has been frankly talking about it on the college circuit. He presents the heartbreaking choices a woman must face, makes it clear that no one wants to encourage abortions, but that they must be legal and safe. He has debated the students on this issue, and the Republican ones often appreciate his candor.

According to the conference call this week and other things he has said, he plans to keep DFA as a separate entity from the DNC, and I doubt he wants the DNC chair at all. He knows what the party did, and he knows they are about to dump on the gay and abortion issues.

I don't have the quote, but I heard he feels that way. You can say what you will, the party will NOT tolerate his enlightened approach.

So rest easy my friends. Your party is going to the right. My hubby and I and our gang here will work with DFA. So all you Dean and Deaniac haters, take a deep breath, and let it all out. Your party is taking care of you! Smile!

[dorktv]

243. I was distracted this week by my own nonsense so I missed

the DFA meeting but I am active in our local chapter...

Dean is going to need us in 4 years if he runs. And I think we can make it happen. We are working on getting the ground work done so next time in AZ we have the people ready and willing to get Dean in.

[madfloridian]

244. Oh, we are also. It won't be easy.

They will fight him all the way. I was just reading about some of the meet-up reports at the blog....the spirit is returning for sure.
Yes, the groundwork will be laid. I still fear though that the party itself will attempt to stop him.

We will be ready. Did you know a group has been started at Yahoo for Dean 08. Check at the DFA forums, not the blog.

[Malikshah]

246. Then the party is wrong and must be replaced

End of story. You play by other's tunes--you must pay their fees.

[Dr Fate]

255. DFA is on the money- the DNC is 20 years behind.

I also encourage people to look into the DFA.

[Malikshah]

245. So very true-- folks need to see the trend that lost us 04

Hmmmm Reno couldn't cut it...let's go with a safer bet in 2002 for FL...oops. Our bad

From June 03 to Jan 04 Dean's on the rise-- all the DNCers/DLCers wringing their hands---no--he's not one of us...he's an outsider...he's too volatile. Oh my gosh, he's got people leaving their jobs and school to go work for him. He's a cult! Runnn!

Don't ask us to look at his message.... Don't ask us to see the effect he has on people...

He doesn't fit in our box--we MUST find someone that fits in our box.

Let's use all our pseudo-intellectual know-how to find reasons to destroy Dean. Let's use faux political analysis-- yup--that'll work.

After all--governors never come out of nowhere to become President....

Post Jan 04

Whew, that was close. Now we have a winner. Someone who will not offend. Someone who has a proven record. Someone who will beat Bush--all our statistics tell us so. All our historical studies tell us so. All our analyses and focus groups tell us so.
We don't need to worry that all these groups didn't see Dean coming up before Jan 2004. Must have just been an oversight on their part...that's it.

Sorry folks-- I backed Kerry to the hilt when Dean dropped out. But I will take this one chance to tell folks who continue to diss Dean's chances-- to wake up and do some serious self-reflection.

After all--- all the political know how made it impossible for folks to think the Chimp would win in 2000...and 2004....

Maybe, just maybe, this political knowhow is just a tad suspect?

It's time to wake up and realize that the game has changed. The rules have changed. And for that reason the "traditional" candidates issues must change.

Think
Outside
the Box.

[Julien Sorel]

252. A little straw man goes a long way.

From June 03 to Jan 04 Dean's on the rise-- all the DNCers/DLCers wringing their hands---no--he's not one of us...he's an outsider...he's too volatile. Oh my gosh, he's got people leaving their jobs and school to go work for him. He's a cult! Runnn!

It had nothing to do with him being an "outsider," and everything to do with him being a loser. You can cast this in whatever light that pleases you, but there is absolutely no evidence, zero, that Dean would have done better than Kerry, and he likely would have done worse, as no one would have wanted to trust a small state governor with no experience of any kind in foreign affairs with their safety. The Republicans put gay marriage amendments on ballots to get their crazies fired up. They wouldn't have even had to bother with Dean.

It's so tiresome having to make obvious arguments to people who are living in fantasyland. If we are going to win the White House, we have two potential routes to doing it. One is to run yet another Gore/Kerry type, and pray to God we finally win Ohio or Florida to push us over the top. That route has failed twice in a row, but hey, maybe the third time would be the charm, Hmmm? And Dean, the guy who couldn't even make it out of the fucking primaries despite spending the most money and getting the most media coverage is the guy to do it.

The other way is to run a candidate who can truly compete in the South and Plains. Dean's inane nonsense about "making them care about healthcare and jobs" is absolute foolishness, as both Gore (and he was nominally a southerner!) and Kerry talked healthcare and jobs from here to eternity, and the southerners told them to take their jobs and healthcare and shove it. But Dean would do better?

Of course he would.

He's the pied piper of jobs and healthcare, and no one, not even the most toothless, gun toting, bible thumping, queer hating redneck alive who hears his tune can resist its charms.

DEAN
IS
THE BOX.


It always amuses me that people exhort other people to think creatively by using the most tired phrase in existence: "Think outside the box." Creative thinking is important, but not important enough for you to think up your own metaphor for it.

[janx]

256. There's only one problem with your analysis, Billy--

and I've admired other analyses of yours before. The problem is that the Democrats and Republicans both took Dean out not after he was losing, but when he was ahead by a huge margin. It began in the weeks leading up to the Iowa caucus, in fact.

And what tires me is the constant insistence, usually by people who favor some potential southern leader or another, that *only a southerner will do*.

It didn't work with Edwards on the K/E ticket, and it didn't work with Gore (although Gore's eventual situation was an obvious exception).

I don't know how some people got the idea that Dean's appeal was some kind of fantasy. Most people who supported him and who then supported Kerry are immensely practical people who supported both candidates for practical reasons.

[Malikshah]

258. Thanks so much for the giggle and the affirmation of my earlier statements

It always amuses me that people exhort other people to think creatively by using the most tired phrase in existence: "Think outside the box." Creative thinking is important, but not important enough for you to think up your own metaphor for it.

In times like this-- the proving of my earlier point just means so much.

Dean is the box... OMG-- that was rich.

MOTS in spades...MOTS in spades.

Yup-- doesn't work twice over-- OH, ok.

BTW-- the power of the DNC/DLC machine is an awesome thing. We all need to revisit all the lovely shenanigans that went on leading up to the primaries.

As for living in a fantasyworld-- what a very very healthy exhchange that's been started with that sentiment.

I wouldn't accuse the MOTS of living in a fantasyworld, as much as they are living in their own world of political CW-- all of which has proven useless. In other words-- the MOTS CW is a "dog that just won't hunt" Time to find a new breed.

Let the games begin!!! :):):):)

[Julien Sorel]

259. What earlier point?

Read your own absurd posts. You aren't arguing for a candidate; you're arguing against "conventional wisdom" (whatever that is, and I suspect the definition will change as it suits your purposes to change it). Then the candidate you trot forward as "unconventional" is a weaker clone of the two candidates who lost before him.

Earlier point?

Early Point 1): Al Gore -- Nominally a southerner, not really accepted as such by the South, which sees him as a Washington liberal. Loses every Southern and border state, running a campaign stressing jobs and healthcare.

Early Point 2): John Kerry. Northeastern liberal. Loses every southern and border state that Gore did, plus Iowa, running a campaign stressing jobs and healthcare.

Future Point (Thank God, it isn't going to happen): Howard Dean. Northeastern liberal from the most liberal state in the union. Wants to run for president stressing jobs and healthcare. Has a dismal record of self destructing in the only competitive race he's ever been in.


Yeah, that's "thinking outside the box." In the sense that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is "thinking outside the box."

[Malikshah]

260. Thanks--barring the use of the terminology absurd-- which is just rude. :)

This earlier point--from my initial message.

From June 03 to Jan 04 Dean's on the rise-- all the DNCers/DLCers wringing their hands---no--he's not one of us...he's an outsider...he's too volatile. Oh my gosh, he's got people leaving their jobs and school to go work for him. He's a cult! Runnn!

Don't ask us to look at his message.... Don't ask us to see the effect he has on people...

He doesn't fit in our box--we MUST find someone that fits in our box.

Let's use all our pseudo-intellectual know-how to find reasons to destroy Dean. Let's use faux political analysis-- yup--that'll work.

After all--governors never come out of nowhere to become President....

Post Jan 04

Whew, that was close. Now we have a winner. Someone who will not offend. Someone who has a proven record. Someone who will beat Bush--all our statistics tell us so. All our historical studies tell us so. All our analyses and focus groups tell us so.
We don't need to worry that all these groups didn't see Dean coming up before Jan 2004. Must have just been an oversight on their part...that's it.


I'm arguing for Dean, pure and simple. I'm doing it in a roundabout way--but the end result is the same. MOTS CW has been shown to be wanting twice over now. Time to move on.

Let the games begin (again!)

Best--:)

[Julien Sorel]

261. People saw his message.

His message is jobs and healthcare. They rejected his message. Twice. From better messengers than he.

[Malikshah]

262. There was actually so much more to the message

But some folks just see what they wanted to see.

We'll see what folks see in the coming years.

Until then-- see ya :)

[Julien Sorel]

263. So much more,

that you decided posting it all would be too much work?

[Malikshah]

264. Sorry, but am not going to argue

Been through this in the primary season.

It's a waste of time to argue with folks who are so wrapped up in their being so right about the MOTS CW formulas.

Some of us have long memories --

Have fun with others.

See ya. :)

[Quill Pen]

271. Dean had plenty big help "not making it out of the primaries"

...and that help came from his own party leadership, a sloppy and unscrupulous press, and the Kerry campaign. If Howard Dean had not been sabotaged by his own party at the peak of his success, he might have beaten Bush.

But let's not reopen old wounds. The past has passed. Let's talk about the future.

Your post fails to consider that we're not talking about the here and now, but the here and then. America may change after four more years of a crusading, power-intoxicated Inquisitionist zealot; it's possible that the red-state rubes will be beaten down and ready for change by 2008. A couple more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, perhaps; a double-digit unemployment rate; the deficit breaking through several new ceilings past which the Treasury swore it wouldn't loan the government any more money; the draft funneling our young people into various Third World rockpiles...and you know, I think Americans may be ready to rumble.

Personally, I'd rather run household-name Hillary, and have Dean take a cabinet appointment as Sec. of Health and Human Services. But if Dean ran again, I'd be behind him 100%, as I was during the primaries.

Edwards got savaged in the primaries, too, and he's not only the positive, big-hearted, church-goin' Southerner you seem to favor, but if he got any more telegenic, I'd have had to take a cold shower during the VP debate. So where is this magic Southern/Plains prez candidate of yours, if it couldn't be Edwards? Zell Miller, maybe? Tom "I actually voted more like Bush, really" Daschle? Should we see what Ann Richards is up to these days?

The whole point of Dean's new org, Democracy for America, is that the Democratic party needs to evolve. The party needs to stop advancing candidates who stand for nothing except keeping their chairs warm. Obviously, their formula of advancing weak and compliant moderates ain't working. So I'm not really sure who you have in mind, but if it's just another "seasoned politician" who knows how to grab his ankles in greeting to his Republican colleagues, we've been there, done that, and failed to get the T-shirt.

[madfloridian]

272. Great post. Gave me a big chuckle for its sad truth.

One of those do I laugh or cry things. }(

[bklyncowgirl]

247. Dean gets it.

If Howard Dean wants to run and is truly committed emotionally, I could support him.

Sure Dean is a New England liberal from an elite background however, I think that he may be able to appeal where Kerry did not.

1. The guy is rich but not filthy rich and lives by all accounts a modest lifestyle. I think that Kerry trying to pretend that he understood the working class was a stretch. Lifestyle matters. I've spoken to many people who love Bush because he's a "down to earth rancher". It's fake of course but in this world image counts.

2. He's a budget hawk capable of bringing in disgruntaled fiscal conservative Republicans.

3. Sure he's the poster child for gay marriage but he would also be in a position to point out that the Vermont Civil Unions law--the oldest in the country--has not caused any major disintigration of morals in Vermont.

4. As a doctor, he can present the flip side to the moral arguement against abortion i.e. the moral arguement for keeping it legal, safe and rare.

5. He's a populist and may be one of the few politicicans willing to blow off big money.

6. He understands that the Right are revolutionaries and for them the end justifies the means. I don't think that most other Democrats get that even today.

That being said, Dean's got some work to do if he wants this. He's not a natural media politician, his image needs some polishing. He's got to learn to watch his mouth--the guy can't resist a good one liner and that's come back to haunt him and he's got to get his family totally behind him. I'm not suggesting that Dr. Judy leave her practice to campeign full time but the occaisional rally or joint TV interview could go a long way in giving the guy more credibility.

I think that a smarter, more media savvy Howard Dean could be a good candidate in 2008 but he has to be willing to do what's necessary in order to win it.

[unfrigginreal]

248. Vote for MOTS

Reading through this thread should remind everyone that the MOTS run this party. The same 'sensible' Democrats that worked so feverishly to bring Dean down in the primaries are spouting similar sentiments in this thread. It's a VERY large clique on DU, probably even the majority but they're just as wrong now as they were during the primaries. The 'sensibles' can now claim credit for another election disaster but will instead look to fault the one candidate, and his supporters, that campaigned on a sharp contrast between himself and Bush and between Democratic and Republican ideals.

These 'sensibles' come in more than one stripe. You have the Liberal idealists that think every argument over principles must be made in the purist form. We shouldn't make any attempts to modify the way we present the message of support for a woman's right to choose or gun control or minority rights. It's best that we just tell America to take their Castor Oil because we know it's good for them, to use a different approach or language somehow means that we're selling out.

Next you have the DLC types. These 'sensibles' believe that the only way to win is to run candidates from the deep south and to run away, or run against, many of the issues important to the Democratic constituency. One of them recently called Dean 'Mr. Civil Unions' as though that somehow disqualified him from being a legitimate candidate. Apparently, it's a view shared by Bill Clinton. They conveniently overlook the fact that fully 60%+ approve of either gay marriage or civil unions. 'Mr. Civil Unions' would have been a plus for candidate Dean because folks knew exactly where he stood. He was not ready to legalize gay marriages and he proved it. They also talk about how a candidate from the Northeast can't possibly win and we must nominate only Southern candidates. A candidates' home region doesn't have a damn thing to do with getting elected as long as the candidate can connect with voters of all regions. I'd agree that Northeastern candidates that go windsurfing in the Nantucket might have a difficult time shaking the stereotype. The bottom line with these 'sensibles' is to run like Republicans with a message that we can do it better.

Then, you also have the devious 'sensibles' that basically fall in behind whatever the Party establishment rallies around. They're more about making personal gains within the establishment than any real principled positions. You can look back on the campaign and wonder 'how could this person say they believe this and then support him/her?' They're very transparent but some are extremely popular on this board.

So, to listen to the 'sensibles' we must vote for MOTS(more of the same). Don't take any new lessons from recent defeats, keep spouting the same 'ol bullshit. We must be more left, we must be more moderate(Republican like) or we must follow the establishment so I can become rich and famous. The one stripe that doesn't show up in these groups is pragmatism.

While I'm a huge supporter, I'm not sure that Dean would be a viable candidate in 2008. The Democratic Party, the media and the GOP made effective attacks on him that will make it hard to shake the image of Dean that has formed in the public opinion. It's a fucking shame too, the one guy that wanted to try a different approach in reaching out to the South, the one guy that told us we have to fight the GOP propaganda on God, guns and gays, the one guy that wanted to make a hard effort to reach the economic disadvantaged white vote, the one pragmatic in the campaign may be too damaged to run again.

I hope with every fiber in my being that I'm fortunate enough to see another candidate like Howard Dean come along. And this time I hope the timid on this board and elsewhere in the Party find the strength to fight the overbearing 'sensibles.' Otherwise we'll continue to see more of the same.

[Malikshah]

249. Great sentiment-- MOTS are a major part of the problem

I still remember being treated with condescension by the sensible crowd. Twisting analyses that would make an Olympic gymnast blanch, the MOTS made sure that everyone knew that Dean was to be a diaster and must be stopped by any means necessary.

Such a real shame. After all, there is a strong precedent for dark horse gubenatorial candidates...silly me--what *was* I thinking ;)

[janx]

251. He's still around, you know...

raising a fine crop of fiscally conservative, socially sane leaders of tomorrow--many of whom won local elections on Nov. 2.

God that makes me happy!

[madfloridian]

253. Oh, yeah.

:hi:

[Malikshah]

257. And it is what keeps me going right now

Knowing that given the chance-- we can revolutionize the process yet again.

We will prevail-- after all-- what is the alternative?

[a new day]

250. Took the ABB moveon.org pledge, went along with the flow

It gave me Mr. Electable, who took a powder before I woke up on 11/3.

I am tired of listeneing to the MOTS, too. How about some fire in the belly and less "oh dear, don't let them know we want to win."

[Dr Fate]

254. Dean or Clark for me too- anyone who will tell it like it is.

n/t

[WI_DEM]

267. I think Dean could have won this year

As a governor he wouldn't have had to defend twenty years of votes and he had a clear position on Iraq.

[AgadorSparticus]

270. hell yes!! he was my first choice and i miss his fiery spirit so much.

i'm just sad that there is always so much fighting and intense bickering when it comes to discussions of him. anyways...

[dolstein]

273. Sorry, but we didn't select our candidate based on electability

Sure, a lot of Iowa caucus goers *THOUGHT* Kerry was electable. But honestly, what the hell do a bunch of left-leaning primary voters know about what swing voters think? They were right that Kerry was more electable than Dean, who Bush would easily destroyed. But it was obvious to me and others like Slate's William Saletan at the time that John Edwards was far more electable than John Kerry.

The problem was that primary voters chose the candidate they thought OTHER people would like, rather than voting for the candidate who they liked and who they felt cared about them. That candidate was John Edwards, who was far more empathetic than Kerry. In addition, John Edwards run much better among independents and crossover voters in the handful of open primaries than John Kerry did.