Please: Stop foisting "moderates" on us! If you want a moderate, join DLC.

[BurtWorm]

Maybe there should be a DU forum for moderates only.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. maybe there should be a DU forum for folks who want to kick pug ass

and don't think politics is a salon type debate...

[BurtWorm]

2. Or a parlor game.

:hi:

[sangh0]

8. Or maybe you should find a more liberal site

You know, one that has an ideological test so you won't be disturbed by a differing opinion. It works for the Fundies, it might work for you

[aldian159]

3. The last time a Democrat won the presidency

He was leader of the DLC.

Do you wanna win or do you wanna stay ideological pure and lose big?

As Dookus would say, if I want purity, I'll buy a dog.

Better to win with a candidate that supports seventy-five percent of your agenda than lose to a GOPer who supports zero percent of your agenda.

[BurtWorm]

4. Why win if you serve only to dismantle what the party stands for?

What's the point of just winning?

[sangh0]

11. The party doesn't stand for jobs, financial security, lower crime

lower teen pregnancy, budget surpluses, increased home ownership, and all the other things Clinton achieved?

Only the loony left thinks that these achievements are Very, Very, Bad.

[BurtWorm]

19. The "loony left," sangh0?

Where have I heard that talk before? :eyes:

[sangh0]

22. Answer the question

The party doesn't stand for jobs, financial security, lower crime lower teen pregnancy, budget surpluses, increased home ownership, and all the other things Clinton achieved?

[BurtWorm]

29. What it says it stands for and who it puts up to stand for them

are two separate questions.

What I'm objecting to is the notion that only a moderate can win. This is the kind of concession the Republicans want, because moderate Democrats do not present a clear picture of difference between the parties. What this election has made clear is that if you give the people a choice between stark ideology and fuzzy moderation they will choose stark ideology. This doesn't mean that the Dems have to become starkly ideological, but it clearly means they have to stop being fuzzy moderates.

[sangh0]

31. Answer the question

The party doesn't stand for jobs, financial security, lower crime lower teen pregnancy, budget surpluses, increased home ownership, and all the other things Clinton achieved?

Again you've ignored a very simple yes or no question, and instead misrepresent your own actions in an effort to avoid acknowledging your divisive misrepresentations.

What I'm objecting to is the notion that only a moderate can win

If that's your point, why does your OP say something completely different?

What this election has made clear is that if you give the people a choice between stark ideology and fuzzy moderation they will choose stark ideology. This doesn't mean that the Dems have to become starkly ideology, but it clearly means they have to stop being fuzzy moderates

And I think you're full of shit. If you were concerned about "a choice between stark ideology and fuzzy moderation" you would have said so before now.

Now try and make us believe you REALLY MEANT something else. Maybe on the third try, I won't notice how you still haven't answered a simple question

[LoZoccolo]

53. Answer the question. n/t

[BurtWorm]

56. Restate it so that it actually is a question.

Please.

[LoZoccolo]

60. The party doesn't stand for jobs, financial security, lower crime

lower teen pregnancy, budget surpluses, increased home ownership, and all the other things Clinton achieved?

(The two possible answers are "yes" and "no".)

[BurtWorm]

63. What kind of question is that? Are these the only things you think

the party stands for? Is that what you're asking me? Because if that's the question, the answer is no. Does it include many of these things? Yes. Do I wish it included vastly more than this laundry list of suburban enticements? Definitely yes! Do I think the Democratic Party could win by offering more, grander themes than "home ownership" and "more cops on the street?" I hope so!

[sangh0]

75. Proof you won't answer the question

You tried ignoring it, but that didn't work, so now you'll pretend the question can be answered.

The question came in response your arguing that supporting DLC policies meant abandoning our principles. I pointed out all the dem principles that the DLC-candidate Clinton promoted.

So now, you're reversing your stance that the DLC means abandoning our principles, and are now agreeing that they do stand for us while hoping none of us notice your flip-flop.

Why win if you serve only to dismantle what the party stands for?

Clinton, a DLCer, stood for the principles of the Democratic Party but you'll never admit that what you said was wrong. You're still trying to convince someone, anyone, that your OP was NOT about how the party "foists" moderate candidates on the eletorate even though that's exactly what your OP says.

[BurtWorm]

77. They do not stand for working class people.

They stand for the management class.

[sangh0]

78. Management is paid minimum wage?

In which universe?

[BurtWorm]

79. Why do want to know which universe management is paid minimum wage in?

What does that nonsequitur have to do with anything at all?

[sangh0]

80. I see you're not too familiar with Dem policies

otherwise you'd know why I mentioned minimum wage

[BurtWorm]

81. Out of the blue? No, I don't know why you mentioned it and management

in the same sentence. I presume it's because DLC has the obligatory stance on minimum wage to make it pass muster with the wealthy fence-sitters they're aiming for.

[sangh0]

82. I see you're not too familiar with DEM policies on minimum wage

so you're now relying on your presumption.

[BurtWorm]

83. DEM policies and DLC policies have a certain overlap, yes.

But you're not trying to pretend that the DLC is all about the minimum wage, are you?

[bread_and_roses]

156. Clinton also stood for the savage

and poor-demonizing welfare "reform" and the DOMA. I am too tired to think of or post about his other moderate to conservative Republican stances. That he won two terms is a testament to his own personal magnatism and the power of his economic message...watered down as it was. Obviously, "middle-class tax cuts" didn't win it for us this time. But if we found a way to turn out the working class and poor in greater numbers in the swing states, we would win.

The Democratic Party that you seem to support offers nothing to either the working class or the poor. Which is one of the main reasons I am not a Democrat.

[trogdor]

91. How about non-fuzzy moderates?

You know, the common-sense wing of the party. You have to be able to enunciate your concept of common sense to people with the equivalent of a sixth-grade education. The other side is VERY good at reducing the level of debate to about sixth-grade level. We are not, and it makes no difference if our candidate is a bleeding-heart liberal, a middle-of-the-road moderate, or a Blue Dog.

Kerry on Meet The Press gets his ass handed to him because everything required a fifteen-minute explanation chock full of 25-cent words, and Joe Sixpack has already changed the channel about halfway through because that's about how long it takes for him to dig the remote out from between the sofa cushions. Kerry in the debates kicked George's stupid ass because he was forced by the format to break things down, and he did an admirable job doing so.

Find a candidate who can reduce complex solutions to simple answers, and you'll have a winner.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

51. That's a question?

Reads like a statement. What are you talking about?

[Tomee450]

66. Loony Left?

I am surprised to hear a democrat use the term "loony left," which is exactly the way Michelle Malkin referred to democrats on the Jim Lehrer news hour. Mary Matlin also uses that term. I am so tired of this desire of some to continue moving to the right. Is the Democratic Partiy to become just another version of the Republican Party? The Democrats have only won two presidential elections in recent times. We keep losing because of leaders who have been complacent and others with no backbone. Dashle,Gephart and Pelosi have been ineffective....to ready to compromise, unwilling to really give it a fight. I don't believe for one moment that most of this country is conservative. The democrats have just done a poor job of getting their message out to the masses.

The Democrats have stood by for thirty years as the Republicans implemented their plans to gain control. As the conservative think tanks were developed and the control of the media taken over by Republicans, the Democrats did nothing. I've watched as the word liberal was trashed. Instead of wearing that label with honor, liberals ran from the term. They should have reminded people over and over of the great good that liberals have done for this country. Instead, the liberal acted as if they were ashamed to be identified as such. It's not liberalism that has caused the Democrats to fail but poor leaders and poor planning and the tendency for some democrats to put their careers above the interst of the people who elected them. And even with this last debacle, the party still seems to have learned nothing. Reid, from a red state is now minority leader. He is a good democrat, IMO, but will he act like Dashle, always having his reelection chances in mind as he decides how to challenge this administration? There is much finger pointing but the problem, IMO, lies right at the foot of the leadership of the Democratic party and individual democratic politicians.

[BurtWorm]

71. The Dems should pick Durbin of Illinois. Dolstein is right.

No more leaders from battleground states. Fuck that shit.

[eridani]

143. So, who is the loony left, anyway?

After this election, you STILL DON'T GODDAM GET THE POINT that allowing the Rethugs to frame the terms of the discussion is suicide?

Is the 'loony left' the people who insist that EVERYBODY IN, NOBODY OUT is the best approach to health insurance? The really loony Dems are the ones who are so goddam stupid they can't figure out a way to get the preferences of the 89% of Dems and 51% of Repugs who prefer universal care to the Bush tax cuts made into public policy.

The conservative Christian Carl Worden gave Dean the following advice on outsourcing last year--

http://sierratimes.com/03/12/29/ar_carlworden.htm

The issue that I believe will put Dean right over the top will be his condemnation of NAFTA/GATT, free trade, and his pledge to end our participation in the World Trade Organization. If Dean wants to win by a comfortable margin, all he has to do is THAT. The massive number of red states that voted for Bush last election will turn to blue, and Dean will waltz into the White House like a halfback who strolls untouched into the end zone. End of game.

Is this guy a member of the loony left?

The Bob Barrs, Dick Armeys and Ron Pauls of the political arena who staunchly opposed the PATRIOT Act along with 62 Dem congresspeople--are they the loony left?

Milton Friedman and William F. Buckley, who strenuously oppose the War on Some Drugs are loony lefties maybe?

Or maybe it's Kucinich and his Department of Peace that's too crazy to consider?

War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.

--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

Geez, now Tricky Dick is officially a loony lefty. Actually, compared to modern Dems he probably is, since he established the EPA and was in favor of universal health care. Political discourse has gotten truly degraded over the past few decades, even here on DU.

[sadiesworld]

152. By 2008 voters will be prepared to crawl across broken glass

to vote for Kucinich.

I truly don't think people understand just how bad things are going to get.

The DLC will be dinosaurs.

[Zhade]

160. You shouldn't be surprised when certain posters use the term.

And yes, it is very unusual for an actual Democrat to use that rightwing term.

[RetroLounge]

68. "Only the loony left ..."

Gee, now that sounds vaguely familiar...

RL

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. putting Ginsburg and Breyer on the supreme court

who were part of the majority to overturn Hardwick v Georgia were not part of dismantling everything the party stood for...

Coming up with a health care plan that covered everyone was not part of dismantling everything the party stood for...


Bringing more minorities into the middle class was not part of dismantling everything the party stood for...


Think what this country would look like if Dole or Bush appointed the last two justices instead of Clinton...

[eridani]

139. Excuse me, but their 'plan' damned well did NOT cover everyone

It left private insurance, which is essentially a criminal enterprise, in charge, and offered huge bribes to the largest insurance companies in exchange for a promise to pretty please cover more people. The 5-10% left out would have been the most tenuously employed and the ones most likely to be chronically ill,

[Kahuna]

154. What is your definition of what the party stands for? I keep hearing..

about this liberal utopia that supposedly existed sometime during my 50 years on earth. But somehow I've never seen it. If someone told you there was a liberal utopia, they were pulling your leg. When oh when will one of the liberal utopia folk answer my question. When was there ever a liberal utopia? Please, please please answer me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. it's a false dichotomy mr. worm is offering us...

there are lots of choices on the ideological spectrum between ted kennedy and rick santorum...


our challenge is to find the most progressive candidate that can appeal to middle America...


We have empirical evidence that the bicoastal strategy doesn't work....

[aldian159]

12. No doubt

Who fits this profile? I don't want to lose, that's the bottom line.

I would much rather have a DLCer than ANY Republican.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. the DLC has become the boogeyman on this board..

the DLD to this board is what the word liberal is to middle America....

[BurtWorm]

39. The DLC is the problem.

They're collaborationists. They're trying to shoehorn a Republican agenda into the Democratic Party in the name of "winning." A lot of good their strategy is! They won the presidency in 1992 and 1996. That's the extent of it. They've been steadily losing us Congress and the Presidency since then. Thanks a lot, "moderates!"

[davepc]

42. The DLC is flawed in the execution, but not in the core of their idea.

We put up Walter Mondales and Hubert Humphries and we're gonna get fucking destroyed EVERY TIME.

A really shitty campaign by a NE liberal did a lot better then running some radical leftist anti-war populist.

A good campaign by a REAL southern Democrat, not that worthless Edwards, and we would of won.

The DLC gives us shit candidates, but their whole point is to keep us from getting slaughtered by running people who will carry Berkly and the Upper West Side and damn little elsewhere.

I have a REAL problem that their ignore the south strategy was run TWICE to no avail, but people who think a majority of Americans were going to hang on to Dennis Kunicich anti-war message in some bottom up expulsion of the Bush presidency are delusional.

[RafterMan]

62. The DLCs problem

is that they're addressing the problem of emotional resonance in an intellectual fashion. The know the words, but not the rhythm.

The solution is the other way around, but I don't know if they can get out of their own way long enough for that to emerge.

[BurtWorm]

69. They are the kind of "liberal elite" I can hate like a rube.

They're a bunch of pointy heads sitting around strategizing and theorizing the blood and guts out of the party.

[Mike L]

28. Excellent point.

"Do you wanna win or do you wanna stay ideological pure and lose big?"

The neoconservatives are ideologists.

[BurtWorm]

64. I am not in favor of ideological purity. But I oppose ideological vacancy.

Republicans love a Democratic vacuum. They'll rush right in and fill it every fucking time.

[Mike L]

85. What are they gonna do--

start banning guns and advocating gay marriage?

[BurtWorm]

99. I mean the vacuum they'll fill is the definition of a nondefined candidate

Like John Kerry, for example. Now you and I may have grown quite fond of Kerry the man, but the rest of the nation got introduced to him through attack ads.

[HFishbine]

86. That was Kerry

"Better to win with a candidate that supports seventy-five percent of your agenda than lose to a GOPer who supports zero percent of your agenda."

That's what I was told about Kerry. Didn't work.

[LittleClarkie]

118. Came awfully damn close, though

I didn't support him because I thought he could win. I supported him because I thought he'd have made a damn fine president. I still do.

Honest Question: Who was the last Dem candidate who came closest to ideological purity, and how did he do?

[HFishbine]

126. Answer

What ideology?

(And for the record, by the time I was campaigning for Kerry, it was also because I thought he'd have made a damn fine president.)

[LittleClarkie]

131. I guess that's what the Dem Party has to answer for themselves

What ideology, indeed.

Rephrasing: Who was the last candidate to run left of center at a time when it would have perhaps been more prudent to run a more moderate campaign? Was that McGovern?

[HFishbine]

133. I understand your question

But the center is a moving target. That makes the question hard to answer, since the center kind of becomes defined by who wins. Clinton was left of Bush I, but since he won, it appeared as if Clinton was a centrist. Did Kerry run left of center? Would we be saying that he perfectly captured the center if he had garnered 150,000 more voted in Ohio?

[Harlan James]

5. If you want eternal GOP govt...

...then keep up your efforts to split the Democratic party.

[BurtWorm]

9. WHAT?!!?

You think putting in a Democrat who will privatize Social Security is NOT contributing to eternal GOP government?! :wtf:

[Harlan James]

10. Strawman

Grow up.

[sangh0]

13. The dividers love straw men

and ridiculous either/or fallacies. Either you're with us or against us. You're either with Santorum or with Nader, and other assorted bullshit

[GreenArrow]

65. you're projecting

as usual.

[Zhade]

161. BINGO.

NT!

[BurtWorm]

14. Get a clue!

Do you think a Democratic "moderate" like Breaux would "save" Social Security as Bill Clinton "saved" welfare?

I do.

[Harlan James]

15. ZzZZZzzz

Whatever you say there, buddy.

[sangh0]

17. Another straw man and false dichotomy

with the added bonus of an implied insult (ie "Get a clue!" implies you are clueless. Real nice, Burtworm) The choice isn't limited to Breaux or Kucinich.

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

32. And you've been oh-so reasonable

telling people to "Get a clue!" and "idiot"

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[sangh0]

36. That what "a certain segment of the net"

says about their name calling

[Mike L]

37. Anyone who doesn't agree with him is a "Freeper".

[Zhade]

162. Boy, isn't that the truth!

Lies about other posters, too - like when he said I was the one who claimed some city was going to get nuked, when that was the now-banned seventhson.

Lies are par for the course with this guy. I mean, I had to force a confession that he used two logins out of him. He's STILL pissed about that.

[sangh0]

25. Lying is pretty stupid

You mentioned Breaux in your previous post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1328114#1328219

[BurtWorm]

35. I haven't mentioned a candidate I prefer.

I definitely do not prefer Breaux.

[Name removed]

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. what's wrong with welfare reform?

shouldn't the able bodied work?

[BurtWorm]

49. If work does not present a hardship, then yes.

If work presents a hardship, then if we really believe in jobs, we need to make work NOT a hardship by providing support where needed, as in daycare, health care, transportation subsidies, clothing allowances, etc. You can't just rip the floor out from under people because the rubes hate welfare queens.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I Agree... (nt)

[sangh0]

6. When did our party's primaries become "foisting"?

Here in NYC, we vote for the local candidates who are going to run under the Dem banner. Only registered Dems get to vote on this, and no one forces us to vote a certain way and no one "foists" a candidate on us.

Don't you have primaries where you live?

[BurtWorm]

18. I'm addressing DUers who think putting a moderate straitjacket

on the party is the only way to win an election--despite ALL evidence to the contrary!

[sangh0]

20. No, you distort and then deny

Your subject line (ie "Please: Stop foisting "moderates" on us! If you want a moderate, join DLC.") does not address what DUers are doing. As far as I can tell, NO DUER decides who gets on the ballot.

IOW, you want me to believe you "despite ALL evidence to the contrary!"

[Mike L]

33. What?

"despite ALL evidence to the contrary!"

All the evidence shows that the anti-gun, anti-God, pro-gay marriage rhetoric is killing us.

[eridani]

144. Why do you keep accepting the Rethug frame?

Not a Rapture loony? Doesn't matter then if you go to church frequently (like Kerry, Gore and Carter, and unlike Reagan and both Bushes), you are still 'anti-God'. Not mincing around like a Pharisee proclaiming how much holier you are than others = 'anti-God.' Has any avowed atheist ever, under any circumstances, even run for any national office, let alone won, as a Democrat?

The national party certainly does not include gay marriage as a plank, and no candidate has ever, under any circumstances led with it as a rhetorical device, not even the few candidates who actually favor it. The Rethugs are always leading with it, just to bait Dems into publicly stating that gays are subhuman.

Anti-gun? The 2/3 of the population in favor of gun control don't want to abolish guns, but you keep letting the Rethugs frame the debate as if they do. Whateverthehell is the goddam point?

[HFishbine]

88. "Don't you have primaries where you live?"

Yeah, but didn't mean squat by the time they rolled around. I very much had a nominee foisted upon me.

[Roland99]

23. Stupid question: What is DLC?

[davepc]

26. read up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council

[Roland99]

84. Thanks.

[AntiCoup2K4]

76. A bunch of neocon Republican moles who infected the Democratic party..

...with the full intention of destroying it from within. And they have obviously succeeded so far.

[Tomee450]

93. I read that

the DLC was formed by a group of southerners who felt that the party was too beholden to certain interest groups and wanted to change that. They are also people who favor big business.

[Zhade]

163. See post #159.

NT!

[Name removed]

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. who's your ideal candidate?

and when was the last time somebody who fit your defintion of a good progressive won the presidency....


I like to win... I'm tired of getting my ass kicked by a group of Pugs...

Aren't you?

[BurtWorm]

52. I'm sick of Republicans, period.

My ideal candidate is a Democrat who will move people to want to vote. It's as simple as that. But I don't want a candidate selected by strategists. I really think we need a great leader now, because our country and our party are in crisis.

[HFishbine]

92. It's not just about winning

Do you draw a line somewhere or is the only thing that matters a "D" behind the name? If we could win with Zell Miller, would you support his candidacy? The point being that, yeah, a lot of us are tired of losing, but who we win with is just as important.

[davepc]

141. right now we're not winning with ANYBODY

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[davepc]

50. FWIW I think the DFA is going to push the DLC out

sooner or later.

[BurtWorm]

54. Amen to that!

May it be sooner!

[davepc]

61. like I said before

I *like* the DLC in theory, but outside of Clinton their southern avoidance strategy has killed us.

You lose 3 elections in a row, and your time is almost up, especially..ESPECIALLY this one.

I don't think most of us get it yet, George Bush was the absolute WEAKEST candidate to run for election since Herbert Hoover. AND HE WON.

We know that fact, but the implications of it haven't quite sunk in yet...not fully.

DFA is the new direction. Dean learned a lot this campaign about raising a party from the ground up, he's pissed, and he's going to put what he's learned into practice.

I don't think Dean can become president, but I think he *gets it* when it comes to getting us competitive back in the rural part of America.

His gun stance is "whatever your state legislature says if fine by me" BAM federal gun control is off the table...a HUGE issue for rural voters

His gay marriage issue is "civil unions aren't marriage, and I'm for them" BAM gay marriage off the table...with a record to run on

If Kerry did that, on thoes two issues...he'd be president. I'm certain of it.

Dean saw it all coming, and he got shouted down by the short sighted among us.

Dean gets it, hopefully he gets the DFA off the ground to push the DLC out of the way, and finds a candidate that has a shot in hell in 2008.

[BurtWorm]

67. You're absolutely right , and you said it very well.

:toast:

[Mike L]

90. Dean

"His gun stance is "whatever your state legislature says if fine by me" BAM federal gun control is off the table...a HUGE issue for rural voters"

He was rated high by the NRA when he was Governor.

"His gay marriage issue is "civil unions aren't marriage, and I'm for them" BAM gay marriage off the table...with a record to run on"

Kerry actually said this too. It's gonna take more to kill this issue. IMO, the next candidate will have to say he supports the gay marriage amendment (to diffuse the issue).

I personally support gay marriage.

[BurtWorm]

107. You mean he should lie to get elected?

Or he should enable the rubes?

[Mike L]

113. Lie-- yes. That's what it takes. Chimp lied about EVERYTHING.

You have to consider the electorate we're dealing with.

[BurtWorm]

122. I see where you're coming from.

You may be right. :shrug:

[tommcintyre]

55. APPEASEMENT HAS NEVER WORKED

http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud.htm

[Julien Sorel]

57. Who is "us"?

[LoZoccolo]

58. I kind-of agree.

I've considered starting an invite-only web site for moderates and people who actually want to get things done.

Example: I posted a call for people to check in to tell us what they're doing for the two days before the election and I got four responses. I think it is so funny, that people want to secede from the red states when they can't even walk a precinct.

[HFishbine]

97. Ummm

Maybe you only got four repsonses to your post because some whacky liberals like me who don't want to get things done missed it while were out walking precincts.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that it was only one kind of person or another who worked for this campaign. I'm an unaffiliated voter who supported Dean in the primaries and worked harder for John Kerry than I did for Dean or any other candidate in my lifetime.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. We Need A DWC

A Democratic Winners Council for folks who are tired of having the Pugs eat their lunch...

[BurtWorm]

72. That's what the DFA is about.

:hi:

[Beacho]

73. only the DLC won us a presidency?

I seem to remember that in the first two years of the presidency, they lost us the house and senate. They've been losing ever since.

The righties will just keep moving the fence post until Lincoln Chaffe and Olympia Snowe will look like trotskyites.

Just what am I *winning* here?

[davepc]

74. most of us i think are lukewarm at best towards the DLC

But those of us who remember Carter and Mondale getting bitch slapped and 12 years of Republican rule haven't seen another viable alternative come up through the ranks that we can get behind just yet. I'm VERY hopeful that the DFA is finally it. I'm not opposed to new ideas and new direction. I think Dean knows his shit and might be able to create the orginazation and philsophy to pull it off.

Moderate candidates can win the election. Radical candidates win the District of Columbia. Losing by 500 EV's is not a way to govern.

We've gotten to a crisis point now though, because even in the darkest days of Regan we had a Democratic opposition in Congress.

We don't have that any more and are losing more and more seats.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

87. Or maybe YOU should...

...come to the simple realization that both DemocraticUndergound and The Democratic Leadership Council have the word DEMOFUCKINGCRATIC in them!!!

Keep your fucking whining to yourself. I feel SO fucking bad for you!! You should try being something other than a conspiracy believing far left liberal/leftist on the internet.

Cry me a fucking river!!!

[BurtWorm]

89. And so did the German DEMOCRATIC Republic

and the Clinton-hating Arkansas DEMOCRAT-Gazette.

[DaveinMD]

94. kicking others out of the party

is no way to win. We need to get more people in the party. Your ideological purity will make us a minority party forever.

[BurtWorm]

110. Where have I suggested kicking anyone out of the party?

Where have I taken a position in favor of ideological purity. I'm actually against the sort of purity the moderates are after, the kind of purity that rules out a whole spectrum of candidates based on what kind of candidate the strategists think can win in the heartland.

[DaveinMD]

115. the attacks on the DLC

reek of kicking people out of the party. Believe it or not, I'm a liberal Democrat. But I believe our party doesn't need these recriminations. We need to unite and fight Republicans. Not each other.

[BurtWorm]

123. I think the DLC has had too much sway over the DNC for too long

with way too little to show for it. I don't care if they remain Democrats, but I think it's time for the party to give them their due, which with $2 will get one of them a ride on the NYC subway.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

112. The GDR was socialist.

My point is lots of people and organizations call themselves Democratic. The word "Democrat" is no indication of anything specific.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

121. Well it is in this case.

[BurtWorm]

124. In what case?

Democraticunderground.com began as a site for Dems, but has become a site for progressives--small-d dems. It's not affiliated with the Democratic Party any more than the GDR or Democrat-Gazette is.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

127. I'm not going to argue in circles...

...Say what you want. Do what you want. Get Skinner to agree with you and then the rest of us can start "TheRealDemocraticUnderground.com" or something...

Hey...Maybe you can get the Green membership to spike!!! REALLY make a difference in the world!!

[Zhade]

165. Maybe you should actually read about the website you're on right now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

You don't have to be a Dem to be here. I'm an independent, for example. You DO have to believe in 'small d' democracy to be here, though.

And, sorry to break it to you, all those who disagree with some aspects of the Democratic Party (such as the DLC, please see post #159 for why I am opposed to them) are not "conspiracy believing far left liberal/leftist{s}", no matter how much conservatives and a few obvious disruptors on DU would like you to believe.

Check out the links in #159. If you still like the DLC, well, that's your right. But some more education on the subject might give you pause.

[killbotfactory]

95. They need to stop thinking "moderate = spineless"

People prefer strong and wrong to weak and right. Dean had the right strategy, but the democrats shitcanned it. Maybe they'll figure it out in four years.

[BurtWorm]

96. "Moderates" in this thread have been avoiding

discussing my main challenge which is to stop pushing "moderate" candidates for president on DU as though the only Democratic candidate who can win is a "moderate." I don't accept that conventional wisdom and I doubt very many of us do.

My suggestion to you is to explain why you think the way you do before you start pushing your uninspiring choices on the rest of us as though we buy what you've bought. I don't and I think I speak for a lot of DUers here.

[DaveinMD]

100. your hole moderate v liberal theme is a false choice

we need a candidate that can unite liberals and moderates. Mark Warner has done this very well in Virginia. Just as Clinton did for the nation. There are others out there. We can't have an ideology test or we become a permanent minority.

And by the way, the left on this site loves Dean. I lived in Vermont and when I was there the left hated Howard Dean. Kerry was far more liberal than Dean.

[BurtWorm]

105. Why are you even thinking of specific candidates at this point!?

With all due respect! Did Warner express a desire to run?

[DaveinMD]

111. its more

of the type of candidate. We need someone who can appeal to both rural and urban voters and who can unite the party. Its not about left v right. We need a candidate with broad appeal. I've brought up Warner because I've followed his career and because I've been impressed with him.

[BurtWorm]

116. He's a cipher to me.

What is impressive about him?

[DaveinMD]

120. he's done a great job as Governor

he got the state to reform the tax structure. And the way he did it was genius. He had Republicans fighting with each other instead of him. That was a huge accomplishment and will make a huge difference in people's lives. It means tuitions at universities won't increase. It means money for public schools will increase. It means money for transportation improvements will be there.

[BurtWorm]

125. We might need a candidate who can play Republicans like a violin

That was one of Bill Clinton's strong points.

[HFishbine]

101. Furthermore

I think by 2008 there's going to be even more reason to nominate a candidate who is NOT a moderate -- not the way we think of one today. I suspect, and I'm just prognosticating, that after four more years of Bush the people will be dying for someone who can pull the country back to the currently deamonized "left."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. I hate labels...

but when was the last time the Dems nominated an unabashed liberal for the presidency and won?

[DaveinMD]

104. Harry Truman

and wasn't really a liberal in his time. He was challenged from the left and right.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. the man who dropped the big one was a lib..

you should have been here when we had the 600 post thread debating that decision...

I think HST could fairly be described as a populist...

[DaveinMD]

108. you are probably right

but he did run fairly to the left. So I guess it would have to be Roosevelt. Maybe Kennedy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. Kennedy

the fella that ran on a missile gap....


or FDR


who promised to balance the budget....


but you are on to something with Kennedy...

He was a liberal but not someone you could not characterize as effete as so many of our nominees have been characterized...

I have RFK on my avatar because I believe he was a "different" kind of liberal... A liberal with brass ones....

[DaveinMD]

114. RFK

is my political hero. He was the last politician to unite poor blacks and poor whites. I truly believe his assassination was the turning point in our history. Had he lived, Reagan never would have happened.

[davepc]

140. the man intergrated the Army in 1950

Get off it

[HFishbine]

132. Then don't use them

Especially if you are going to ask the question you did. The label has changed since FDR and even has various meanings today depending on who's using it.

So, why don't you try asking the question without the label and we can maybe see what the real issue is?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. K- I Think JFK Was The Last Northeastern Democrat That Will Be Elected

President In My Lifetime....

[Catt03]

151. Right on that point

If all goes as has been demonstrated the last four years, Bush will
self destruct both he and the Rep party.

And....history backs it up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. I Love DU

but most DUers fealty to ideological purity is negatively related to their knowledge of Electoral Politics...

[Malva Zebrina]

117. No doubt in my mind

this party as it stands now,cannot win. The more it goes right, the more people it loses and the more elections it loses. We are now at 55-45 in the Senate thanks to the Democratic wishy washy move to the right and it's knee bending attempts to ride on the Republican ticket in order to win.

I think it is time for something else. This does NOT work and if it keeps up like this, I will simply not vote or cast a vote for someone else other than the moderate, more to the right, Democrat.

[DaveinMD]

119. have fun with your purity

as our country implements reactionary policies because you make good the enemy of the perfect.

[Malva Zebrina]

130. sorry about that

It is NOT my fault, is it? I think you need to re evaluate exactly who is responsible and it is NOT people like me. I supported Kerry all the way in every way I was able, and suffered through the Democratic rightists for the past four years, who, most times let me down.

I will not sacrifice my "purity" any longer. In life, each of us determines the "right thing to do" as our ethical guideline. It seldom fails me and there is much peace achieved from following it. It is something that I now cherish and my husband now feels the same. In fact, I love my "purity" more than ever.

[Tomee450]

157. My sentiments exactly.

The democrats keep moving to the right and they keep losing. Their strategy has failed;time for something different as they are losing anyway.

[montana500]

128. what states did Kerry lose because he wasnt liberal enough?

[BurtWorm]

129. I suspect: Ohio and Florida in particular.

[in_cog_ni_to]

134. He didn't lose those states. They were stolen.

:hi:

[BurtWorm]

135. I suspect they might have been.

I suspect they might not have been if Kerry had tilted left.

[jacksonian]

148. if we had bumped the youth vote up it could have made a difference

we did well with that group, but we could have done better. And being more liberal might have done it. As it was, much of the base was to the left of Kerry in this campaign.

[Beacho]

136. My anti-DLC feelings have nothing to do with ideological purity

It has to do with their patrician attitude and their piss poor leadership.

Their shit isn't working

When a general is failing on the battlefield, you relieve his fucking ass.

[Beacho]

137. bump

*bump*

[0rganism]

142. Do you really think we can win with a radical at this time?

Back about 10 years ago, I believed it. I believed America was ready for an alternative vision, a true comprehensive set of socio-economic solutions, a move towards environmental protection, and a foreign policy that embraced, rather than alienated, the people of the world.

Then Newt Gingrich won the 1994 elections. I understood, at that point, that social democracy was going to be a long time coming, and the Democratic party as it was simply couldn't do it. I threw my support to the Green party for a while, in the hopes of at least pushing the ideas into the national dialog. It didn't work. I and many other Greens (including Nader's running mate, Winona LaDuke) bolted back to work for the Democrats after the 2000 elections.

Look, right now we're out of the government entirely. This is as lame or worse than the republicans situation in 1964. We need visionaries, yes, but we also need our Nixon -- a competent moderate politician who can shift momentum, swing things back in our direction just a little for a while. Our Reagans will just have to wait.

[eridani]

145. Nixon isn't moderate--he's a loony lefty

At least by today's standards. He established the EPA and was in favor of universal health care. And here he is in 1983, ready to be channelled by Dennis Kucinich.

War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

Like I keep saying, the issue is reframing our policies, not abandoning them.

[0rganism]

147. Nixon was loony left on some issues, not on war & peace or civil liberties

At least, not during his tenure as a president. Watch "Going Upriver" and see what he has to say about John Kerry, for instance. And he wasn't above using tacit racism to lure support away from Democrats in the south.

However, he was a true economic populist. I have to give him that. He actually had the cojones to propose a maximum wage -- a top marginal rate of 100%!!! Can you imagine a republican trying to sell that one today?

[BurtWorm]

149. There's a lot of room between "moderate" and "radical."

I'm against straitjacketing the party into one end of that spectrum or the other.

[genius]

146. Perhaps there should be a DLC underground for those who are

too cowardly to be Democrats. Our party is liberal. WE don't need conservatives bringing us down. They really need their own ivory tower where they can't interfere with those of us who live in the real world.

[catbert836]

150. We need moderates on this board

As well as liberals. Without either, we're lost as a party.

[Kahuna]

153. Do you realize that the MAJORITY of Democrats are moderates????

People vote for candidates they can relate to. That's why moderate Democrats win the nomination. Sheesh.

[JohnKleeb]

155. Yeah being moderate is such a bad thing

Christ all mighty, I bet a great deal of you who trash Governor Warner know nil about little if any about him. He's been a sucessful governor, winning where others could not, and turning the ecocomy around here. We need something IMO in between total moderate and total radical like some people want, thats my opinion anyhow.

[Freddie Stubbs]

158. What did the DLC ever give us?

A President:

[IndianaGreen]

164. DOMA, Plan Colombia, 8 years of bombing and starvation of Iraq, Kosovo

Let's not forget that Clinton was among those that said that Iraq had WMDs.

[no name no slogan]

166. ...who governed like an Eisenhower Republican

and not much else-- unless you count the loss of the US House and US Senate, and the loss of many other state houses and governorships.

I would gladly trade 8 years of dotcom Bubba/Bubblenomics for control of the House and Senate any day. And I'm not alone.

[Zhade]

159. As always, here are some DU links to DLC research.

Gives you an idea of what kind of organization we're talking about:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4443&forum=DCForumID22&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23262&forum=DCForumID60&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1435&forum=DCForumID34

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11323&forum=DCForumID60#114

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=326015#top"