It's not tinfoil- it's MATH!!!!!

[Marnieworld]

I am so sick and tired of people calling the people who are making a tremendous effort to verify the legitimacy of ths election conspiracy theorists.

The concept of rigging elections is as old as elections themselves. BBV is just a high tech ballot stuffing. When the ballot box is controlled by one party that party has a chance to stuff it. That is what has happened. The central tabulating servers were open to the internet. That's like a ballot box in a room with the door wide open and how could that be considered secure?

These wonderful people like Bev Harris are dealing with computer science and math. They aren't just saying they have a hunch it was stolen. They aren't telling anecdotes about polling places. They aren't using web blogs as sources. They are always, always, referring to raw data that needs to be analyzed. They are analyzing logs created by computers. They are working with statistical probabilities.

Those that are math-challenged are using common sense.
No one stands in line for many hours for the status quo. Record turn-out does not favor the incumbent. How does the worst president ever get more votes than he did when we didn't know how bad he was? How could someone with a 49% approval rating get 58% of the vote in a FL county with 77% registered Democrats? When you use an ATM you get a receipt but when you vote it's based on trust? Trust of privately owned companies that openly endorse a political party and technology that is wide-open to tampering and only counted by one side? Student council elections are run better.

So unless you are countering their arguments with facts just as documented then you should just shut up and let these people work to save our country. Stop being a GOP mouthpiece.

edited for typos

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. Thank You!

I agree and I, for one, think these machines MUST go! I want a paper and pen. Thank you very much. The BBV is not a tin foil hat/conspirscy theory. Period. It's real. Fraud Happened!

[ComerPerro]

2. kick

Well said

[jayfish]

3. I Am Starting To Believe. -NT-

Jay

[Marnieworld]

4. Believe!

Trust me. I rooted for the Red Sox!

[deutsey]

8. I am too

Although I've suspected they were going to steal this election since they stole the last one, I have been waiting for proof before I make any accusations.

The reports out of Florida and Ohio are beginning to convince me. Over 3000 extra votes were handed to Bush in one Ohio precinct? A Broward County voting machine began counting backward? The huge discrepancy between exit polls and machine votes?

Yeah. Nothing suspicious there.

What pisses me off is that not a damn thing will happen to rectify this even if we have smoking gun evidence. Those who don't live in a "reality-based community" will never hear about it. Hell, I know liberal Democrats who aren't aware about the voter purges in Florida before 2000. How are we going to convince people about this voter fraud?

[roseBudd]

10. Sy Hersh?

[deutsey]

14. That's one avenue, although his reports on torture didn't seem

to translate into outrage among the Red State Nation.

[roseBudd]

19. we don't need outrage, it's not up to them

[Marnieworld]

5. shameless kick to honor our DU heroes

so sue me cause I want people to read this. :evilgrin:

[Marnieworld]

6. shameless kick for our DU heroes

so sue me cause I want people to read this :evilgrin:

[President Kerry]

7. yes! also, if they need volunteers, we ALL must be available

this is bigger than somebody's unsubstantiated opinion. We need to get to the bottom of this.

[flygal]

9. KICK..

[roseBudd]

12. Warren County Ohio barred the press

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/05/loc_warrenvote05.html

Warren's vote tally walled off
Alone in Ohio, officials cited homeland security

By Erica Solvig
Enquirer staff writer


LEBANON - Citing concerns about potential terrorism, Warren County officials locked down the county administration building on election night and blocked anyone from observing the vote count as the nation awaited Ohio's returns.

County officials say they took the action Tuesday night for homeland security, although state elections officials said they didn't know of any other Ohio county that closed off its elections board. Media organizations protested, saying it violated the law and the public's rights. The Warren results, delayed for hours because of long lines that extended voting past the scheduled close of polls, were part of the last tallies that helped clinch President Bush's re-election.

"The media should have been permitted into the area where there was counting," Enquirer attorney Jack Greiner said. "This is a process that should be done in complete transparency and it wasn't."

[roseBudd]

13. If the Enquirer won't investigate maybe the Dayton Daily News will

can someone call them, I can't

[Doctor_J]

11. we wuz ROBBED AGAIN

anyone who thinks we lost legitimately needs to WAKE UP AND GET PISSED

[HFishbine]

15. Math

Sure. But you could have stopped after your third paragraph. A litany of unanswered or even unanswerable questions is the bases for the conspiracy theory accusation.

[City Lights]

16. Thank you for saying this.

I'm tired of hearing about all Kerry did wrong and what we need to do to win next time, blah, blah, blah. If the last four years of hell under _{he is dead to me} wasn't enough to get Democrats off their asses, nothing will. We won. But they are 3-0 in the election stealing department. How many more will it take before people open their eyes?

[Straight Shooter]

17. A little bit here, a little bit there, here a bit, there a bit

Adds up to a great big bite out of Kerry's final score

[Maiden England]

18. Pah, You is just one of them terra-rists, from AL GEBRA

Math, pffft, sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. All them numbers, you just trying to confuse the simple folk. Just leave us G-d fearing folk in piece already. Math makes my brain hurt.



</parody>

[Awsi Dooger]

20. Fine, here are some numbers for you

No one likes my math, because it screams we got our ass kicked and legit. Newsflash: that's what happened. Hocus pocus ignorant appraisals of registrations versus actual results is in the same league with everyone here who was insisting our new registration advantage was in the neighborhood of 250% to 25%, to quote one ballyhoed stat very few ever bothered to examine or comdemn. Other than myself and a few others.

How about cell phones? I'm noticing the same crew touting that was worth 3-5% for Kerry last week is now awash with Diebold cynicism. What about 86% undecideds to the challenger, when my research and that of many others doubted it would be much above 60% in a 50/50 presidential race? Those people are also enamored with fix. You can't discount the mistakes from as recently as last week and now claim they're 100% correct regarding a stolen race.

Numbers:

* 60% of Floridians listed the state economy as good or excellent

* Bush's approval rating in Florida was 54-45 positive

* Party identification in Florida changed from 40-38 Democratic advantage in 2000 to 41-37 GOP edge in 2004. Nationally, it went from 39-35 Dem advantage to 37-37. When you combine that with the guaranteed reality Democrats are less loyal than GOP voters, generally 3-5%, good luck.

* Kerry did not manage Gore's numbers among blacks. It was 90-9 in 2000 but more like 88-11 this year. In Florida, much more dramatic, losing 6 or 7% in 2000 up to 13% this year.

* 34% of Floridians described themselves as conservtive compared to 20% liberals, also up in Republican advantage since 2000

* White women voted 55-44 for Bush nationwide, a huge 10% net gain for Bush since 2000, when he beat Gore merely 49-48. That is game, set, match. White women make up 41% of the nation's voting block, the biggest chunk. Yeah, let's forfeit 10% there and claim we were cheated. Brilliant.

* Security moms were not a myth and decided this election. Just look at the Castor/Martinez Florida senate race. White women split 49-49. That is their natural tendency. But when you throw in the terrorism fear, they broke 56-43 for Bush. Again, game over in Florida.

We lost. Better to focus on the 3 gov races in 2005 and the 2006 midterm.

[Marnieworld]

21. You are quoting voting percentages...

as if they mean anything. It's absurd. No wisdom can be derived from examining this election "result." The numbers are nonsense. They are nothing more than the sum of the real-time hacks into the voting databases. We didn't lose. We were robbed.

Catch up with us.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[Awsi Dooger]

22. Sorry, I'm right, you're a cynic and my numbers are legit

And meaningful. I have looked at EVERY state, including raw numbers, exit polls, and relationship to previous years in voting pattern. We lost. White women were the reason, tilting to the GOP due to terrorism fear.

Here, try this link, from long before the election, forecasting the cause for our loss:http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=750

Post-9/11 Parity

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, and Bush's response to the attacks, marked a major turning point in party identification. Republican party identification rose to 30%, while the Democrats fell to 31%, putting the parties into a virtual tie for the allegiance of the public.

Because Republicans traditionally turn out to vote in higher numbers than do Democrats, the current division in party affiliation among the public could provide the GOP with a slight electoral advantage, all other things being equal.

A striking feature of the post-9/11 shift in partisan identification is its breadth. The shift is seen in most major demographic and social groups in the population, and is fairly consistent in size.

Among these groups, the average decline in the Democratic advantage is five percentage points, but no group in the population shifted more than 10 points. Greater than average Republican gains in party affiliation are seen among white Protestants (nine-point shift after Sept. 11), white Catholics (eight points), and Hispanics (eight points).

[Marnieworld]

23. Not a cynic

but I'm a database programmer and network administrator and I gotta tell you that this election was hacked.

Seriously buddy, http://www.blackboxvoting.org

Peace

[Awsi Dooger]

24. BBV is a legit issue; I've been to that site and respect Bev Harris

I want full access to code and a paper trail that is checked to verify machine results, even if the result is lopsided. But I refuse to condemn the machines completely because they should actually HELP Democrats if accurate. We lost millions of votes over the years via undervotes and overvotes in punch card and other systems, particularly in large urban areas.

Sorry for calling you a cynic. Most BBV DUers would consider that a compliment.

[Milo_Bloom]

25. Please say you are not quoting the CNN exit polls?

We already know that they were doctored later in the evening to reflect the results, rather than the actual poll data.

They were blatantly busted with the Ohio exit polls and although I haven't seen the original Florida data, the fact that they updated it at after 1:00AM certainly calls it into question.

[davepc]

26. you realize the data from those polls are adjusted as it is processed

days and months after the election right?

The 1st run of number crunching dosent always tell the right story.

[Awsi Dooger]

27. Thank you; some of the numbers will continue to change

That is completely normal. DUers are obviously unfamiliar with exit polls and expect the very first ones to be final and cemented. Anything else is evil manipulation.

[Awsi Dooger]

29. Tell me which numbers you dispute

It's not enough to simply reject the entire idea that exit polls are representative of the vote. I looked at exit polls from states without electronic machines and with a result no one is disputing, simply to see if the Florida and Ohio and elsewhere tendencies held up. Jeepers, they did. White women, in particular, flocked to the GOP. Party identification trended toward the GOP. See an earlier post of mine in this thread for that link.

That 60% good or excellent number regarding Florida's state economy was placed first in my post for a reason. It was always the main problem winning Florida this year, not Jeb or BBV. One pundit after another cited Florida's economic strength and how it could tilt the state toward Bush this year. Even the hurricanes with their damage to crops wasn't enough to dampen evaluation of how the state was faring.

Ohio is another story altogether. We had a chance to steal that state primarily due to lousy economy, including massive job loss since 2000. Only 41% of Ohioans listed the state economy as good or excellent. The state figured to mirror the national vote his year and it did, coming in 1 point toward Democrats. In 2008, it is a big favorite to reclaim it's traditional level of 2-4 points more Republican leaning than the nation as a whole.

[priapis]

28. well said

[donheld]

30. You are quite right

I'm not sure why do many DUer's and other Progressives want to discard these fraud incidents. We can put our heads in the sand if we want to, but we best not. I think there's too much evidence already to just disreguard it. We CANNOT take things like voting and vote counting for granted. We've done that with our democracy in general for far too long, and now we're on the brink of losing it.

[Tigerlily]

31. Agreed!

[catbert836]

32. Thank you

You've given me a small dose of hope.