Some people just aren't getting this "VALUES" thing....

[Dob Bole]

It's understandable, because CNN, etc. are probably talking about values as some sick form of gay-bashing. But I think a lot of people on DU are missing the point. The difference between the red states and blue states is values...they value different things. It's not that the red states are simply stupid, mean, or worthy of a boycott (which would do us a lot of good /sarcasm) or that rural people hate homosexuals...I know several homosexuals and live in a rural area, and nobody hates them.

So maybe I can explain this difference in a way that more people might be familiar with. The culture of rural areas is drastically different from that of urban areas, and Democrats are out of touch with this culture, for the most part. Edwards warned about this, but Edwards wasn't the nominee.

Think about the Beverly Hillbillies, or Crocodile Dundee...how the characters in them completely didn't understand each other. For that matter, think about people's reaction to The Simple Life. I couldn't stand that show.

If Democrats want to win again, we have to somehow bridge this gap. If it takes running Clark Kent from the buttcrack of Kansas, I think it will be worth it. (As a second-guessing side note...why was John Glenn never considered as VP? We'd certainly not be numb today if we had done it...)

[IrateCitizen]

1. I agree with you, but John Glenn is around 80 years old.

Despite the fact that he's probably as healthy as most 40 year olds (as opposed to Cheney, who is as healthy as most 90 year olds), I don't think putting an 80-year old man on the ticket would've been the best thing to do.

[sonicx]

2. "The culture of rural areas"

please educate me (no joke, i'd like to know)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. Drinkin beer, shootin' guns, riding ATV's

going to church (for some)...

[IrateCitizen]

4. No, that's a stereotype...

Although riding ATV's fits in there.

Most rural folks are outdoor sportsmen. Hunters and fishermen. They have a strong-sense of independence and self-reliance. When someone needs help, they don't look outside -- the community just chips in.

Churches are as much about the community as they are about religion. It's a social center too, which makes religion that much more important in their lives.

I've been an east-coaster for a while, but I DID grow up on the edge of Western PA farm country....

[earthenleft]

7. value votes

Bush's value votes came from the born agains and the rest of the religious right. They hate gays, plain and simple. Everything that the born agains and the religious right stand for is against Jesus and his teachings. This has to be pointed out publically and if it is not addressed in a serious and big way, then the Democrats can say goodbye to the Presidency for decades. The left is letting the right win the values debate. Morality and goodness is on the left-wing and its agenda, so lets claim it instead of bending over for the right.

[Dob Bole]

5. Simple living...

People who live in rural areas are survivors, they work hard, they're usually religious, they have strong family ties, and they are pretty frugal.

[Haviland_42]

15. I live "down here"

and I have to agree with your statement and only add that although (in my opinion), there are varying degrees of religion ... most consider themselves religious.

[Zuni]

8. It is like the difference between Russia and Germany

it is just very hard to describe...

[Zuni]

6. It is not about bigotry, it is about lifestyle and culture

The difference between the midwest and NYC or Washington DC or LA is like the difference between Italy and England.
An Italian couldn't get elected in England, and a Northeasterner will have trouble in Red States.

[Kingshakabobo]

9. Bullshit. What rural areas? Nobody?

>I know several homosexuals and live in a rural area, and nobody hates them.<

I've resorted to keeping a gun in my car when I go to Southern Illinois with my boyfriend to visit his relatives.I hate guns and I don't like breaking the law.
Last year I got chased by a car full of teens in Missouri while on vacation. My crime? Having a rainbow flag on the back of my truck and riding with another guy.

[Walt Starr]

10. THANKYOUVERYMUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn, I've been saying this over and over and over and over and over.........


Teh key is, we really aren't so different. It's the language about values that's so different!

[tnlefty]

11. I get it in my area. I've seen too many people who live in shacks that

are about to fall in on their heads, can't afford to keep their power turned on, have their kids on free/reduced school lunch programs and still want to call me and my kids all types of names while leeching off of us and the very programs that they propose to hate. I'm tired of it.

The schools are losing funding all the way around and they don't care as long as they don't have to pay for it, but will gladly cuss us liberals up one side and down the other for trying to appeal to them that public education benefits all of society. I'm tired of it.

If you think that you can make type of headway with these folks you hop right on down here and give it your best shot. I'm just tired of sinking with this ship.

[sangh0]

12. Another thing people aren't getting

is that this talk about values is NOT about CHANGING our values. It's about learning how to talk about our policies in a way that makes our values apparent, instead of repeating a litany of facts and figures.

[tnlefty]

27. People understand the facts and the figures and the response is

"I just hate queers and niggers". They will starve themselves because of this. I've heard too many times, from too many people. Those who aren't this blatant are the ones that I refer to as the closeted bigots. They range from those who don't have a pot to piss in to the well off.

[pstokely]

13. many church goers are gullibile

nt

[retread]

14. This is the part I don't get about this "VALUES" thing. How could

anything to do with values result in the election of Bush??? Where's the disconnect?
I think the answer is in the level of propaganda people are subjected to.

Kill your TV!!!!

[Trahurn]

16. Sorry but there is an enormous difference

Will you stop trying to defend the bigotry and hatred of southerners. They would rather kill a gay person as to look at them and here you are trying to tell every one to back peddle. You like the southern racists, bigots you go live with them. I happen to believe all people should be treated as people and if that is not a value then I guess I have none but I'll be damned if I modify my value structure just to accommodate a bunch or red neck hillbillies many with generations of being inbred. Forget about it. When you have winning an election even though the exit polling does not support such a win, modifying your values in the hopes of some desperate measure to win accomplishes nothing except losing your self respect.
Hopefully someone will start posting something of real interest.

[Dob Bole]

22. Where are you from?

I'm telling no one to back peddle or modify... WTF??

Apparently you are not from a rural area...because we are obviously not understanding one another.

[QC]

17. A lot of us are swallowing the GOP's propaganda about values,

namely that they have a monopoly on values, and that values means getting all upset over what people do with their genitals.

We all have values that motivate our political thinking. Our concern for equality is a value and we need to treat it as such. We need to make it clear at every opportunity that our positions are not mere policies or, worse yet, a collection of accomodations to constituency groups, but things we believe in because they are right.

[slappypan]

18. notes from a red county

I recently moved from the suburbs to a small town. I live in a red county in a blue state. The fact is, the rural way of life is heavily subsidized from outside. The major employer here? A public university attended mainly by downstaters and foreign students. Other sources of income? Tourism and retirees who made money in the city and have returned to live. Without money and services largely from outside the special way of life here would not be possible. For some local people, this breeds resentment. Much of the rural/urban controversy is like when you loan a guy money, and the next time you see him you find he's angry at you. No matter how respectful or understanding the wealthy urban areas try to be, there is desire among some people in the hinterlands to stick it to the uppity city folks. That is part of what you saw on Tuesday — seething resentment. Call it the spite vote.

[funkhowser]

23. values

I live in FL ... values, like my repuke neighbors like to espouse ... anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro-gun ... rah rah, hey hey ... while they cheat on their spouses, lie among family members ... even about the most inconsequential things, walk around with either a beer or a gin/tonic permanently affixed to their hand (and then taking Zolofot on top of it to boot), hide $$$ from their spouses, and all the while, ranting how the rest of us are going to hell. No thank you, you can keep your values and I'll keep mine (married 20 years, have never cheated, don't lie or deceive each other, don't blurt out in the heat of an argument "daddy never wanted either of you") and sure as hell, don't follow some organized religion to "guide" my life. I'll put my values against their "values" any time.

[Cleita]

19. So by your definition what values did Bush have that appealed to

the voters? Just set aside the abortion, gay thing for a minute and what values does Bush have that are so appealing? Is it creating more poor and homeless because of his trade policies? Is it his compassion for the elderly and the handicapped, which makes it even harder to get the drugs they need than before? Is it because looking and sounding stupid are hailed as some kind of virtue?

[QC]

20. They perceived him as being plainspoken, devout, and committed.

Yeah, it's ridiculous, I know, but that's what a lot of people believe to be his strengths. We mostly tried to counter that by insisting that he was really an idiot and that only a fellow idiot would be taken in by him. I still think that's true, but it's clearly not a very effective strategy.

[luaneryder]

21. Having just moved from an extremely

rural area of east TN I can see what you are trying to say, but don't know who can do it. I never felt a part of the community because I didn't go to church (so I was a satanist), didn't hunt (so I was a left wing animal rights activist), was a divorced woman living alone (so I was after all the men or I was a lesbian or I was one of those uppity women like Hillary), supported a woman's right to choose (so I was a murderess). There is still a mistrust and suspicion of yankees, city slickers and people from California. I was in love with the natural beauty of the area, but could no longer cope with the attitude. And I was born in the south.

I don't think it's a matter of the Dems being out of touch, I think it was a matter of the success of the Repub campaign to play on the well steeped religious fears of rural dwellers. Religion and church is the social center of their universe and they will do as their preachers and pastors say. Someone is needed not to bridge a gap, but to assure them their way of life is not being threatened by the Democratic candidate. That's where Rove's (or whomever) little handouts to churches with two men holding hands and the slash thru a photo of the bible worked beautifully. I'd like to think there is a viable candidate out there that can do that

[funkhowser]

24. values

deleted ... dupe of above.

[PSU84]

25. Explain to me exactly why we should

bridge the "gap" between us and a bunch of ignorant, inbred, bible-thumping, knuckle-dragging, homophobic hypocrites who don't even have the decency to live by the words of love and tolerance that Jesus preached and that they claim to hold in such esteem.

We're two nations. Time to acknowledge that the twain shall never meet.

[Dob Bole]

26. ok.

I would point out, though, that the last 3 Presidents we were able to put in office were a farmer, a farmer, and the Man from Hope.

But yeah..your stereotype is absolutely correct. Screw them all, and you can win without them.

[Cats Against Frist]

28. What makes you think that a large percentage of us "liberal morons"

didn't grow up in a red state, or a red part of a blue state? I certainly did, and I can attest, a large part of the time, that under each embroidered teddy-bear vest there's a cultural supremacist that would rival the Nazis.

I'd buy it, if I didn't hear jokes about "sushi" and "espresso" as if they came from fucking Mars. These people are scared, they don't want to think about anything, and the half that's not waiting for the rapture is voting for a candidate on American Idol.

Yeah, they're great people -- I was raised by them, and felt a lot of love -- but I was also schooled in fear, bigotry, hypocritical religion, xenophobia, black and white, consumer soullessness and SMUGNESS.

And you know what it comes down to? They're scared of us, too. They think we look down on them, which we do. Which I do. You're snotty if you've come from the city, you're looking down on them if you tell them you won't shop at Wal-Mart, where they go three times a week, if you try to tell them that your graduate degree trumps their "life experience," -- anything.

And if it was just the determination to be religious, or have a curio cabinet stuffed with overpriced, piece-of-shit statues, or to make the fucking cornbread the same way you've made it for 20 years, then I'd leave them the fuck alone, and not worry about it.

But they have hate and fear in their hearts. In copious amounts. Trust me. I've lived it. I was SUBJECTED to it.

Why do you think they'd be so concerned that "gays get married?" You know damn well that it doesn't have anything to do with them, particularly in the context of Constitutional rights. It's like if someone put a garden gnome on their front lawn that I didn't like, and I threw bricks through their windows, until they took it down.

They don't FUCKING CARE about people. And most of the "value" voters who went out, aren't even fundies -- but "wannabe" fundies, that cite Jesus in a conversation with gays and are against abortion, but would equally say that poor minority children should be punished for the deeds of their parents, as they drive off in their giant car.

They certainly do value different things than I do. And don't fool your fucking self. I don't know why people think America is different, somehow. Most of human existence didn't include the "Englightenment" or egalitarianism for good reason -- it's simply not that popular. Even our founders limited those things to white men.

When do you think the right rose up? Shortly after people thought they might apply civil liberties to "the brown people."

So give me a break.

[Dob Bole]

30. I'm sorry...did somebody call you a "liberal moron?"

because it sure as hell wasn't me. I'm sorry about the experience you had some decades ago, but the bottom line is still this:

The last 3 Democrats that got through to the White House were a farmer, a farmer, and the Man from Hope. Were they huge bigots, too?

[Cats Against Frist]

32. No -- I know you weren't

and I'm sorry -- just the words of freepers echoing in my head.

I am sorry about the tone of my post, but it makes me very angry. And my family even voted for John Kerry! I can't imagine what it would be like to be around people that swallowed the Kool-Aid ten times and pulled the lever for Smirk.

[MadHound]

29. Sorry friend, I'm not buying it

This talk of "values" is simply code for taking away the barrier between church(esp fundy Christian) and state. Amending the Constitution in order to ban people from getting married, banning medical procedures in order to appease fundy Christians, all of that is simply the vanguard of the movement to remake this nation into a theocracy.

Values are a fine, wonderful thing to have, in fact more people need to have them(especially in this administration). But they are also a personal matter, one that is left to the individual, not inserted into our government. Our founding fathers created this barrier between church and state for a good reason, we would be foolish to tear it down.

[QC]

35. You're letting the GOP define values.

Please see post 17. We Democrats have a wonderful set of values--it's time we put them front and center.

[Kipepeo]

31. Give me a break

I am a liberal Democrat from the backwoods of the south, grew up Fundie, Republican...the works.

Many Democrats came from this culture and are not "out of touch" with it. That's the right-wing media spin. Any time I turn on the teevee now I have to listen to how out of touch dems are and blah blah. Even if you believe the numbers (which I don't) there's half of the country out there who voted Dem. How is that "out of touch??"

The south has been manipulated by the conservative media and by prejudice and fear for a long time. We need to learn how to fight those problems, not build a bridge of "understanding" to them.

[Dob Bole]

34. Sorry, but that's the problem...

Dems don't know HOW to overcome the conservative media in the rural areas. There are definitely exceptions, like Hightower and Carville...but I'm not sure of how many exceptions there are making the big decisions..

[Kipepeo]

37. I think the problem is that we don't put funding

into liberal think tanks and into liberal universities and into liberal intellectuals, etc.

We are starting to do so but we're having to play catch-up.

Add to that that we are thinkers so lose when it comes to sound-byte media.

But we are learning.

[evilqueen]

33. In reality, chimp supporters don't actually know

what his values are. They think their values are his values. When you ask them what "values" Bush is talking about, they cite three main things:

The Republican Party was founded on three beliefs that remain the core principals of the Republican Party to this day.

First, Republicans support the protection of individual liberty. In Lincoln's day, that meant opposition to slavery. Republicans to this day continue to work for the equality of the opportunity and rights for all citizens.

"Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." - A. Lincoln, 1859


Second, Republicans also support a strong United States. At the time of our founding, a strong union meant opposition to secession and the promotion of economic development. Today, Republicans are leading the war against terrorism at home and abroad. We also encourage policies that unite us as Americans rather than divide us along racial, ethnic or other lines.

"America has entered a great struggle that tests our strength, and even more our resolve. Our nation is patient and steadfast. We continue to pursue the terrorists in cities and camps and caves across the earth. We are joined by a great coalition of nations to rid the world of terror. And we will not allow any terrorist or tyrant to threaten civilization with weapons of mass murder. Now and in the future, Americans will live as free people, not in fear, and never at the mercy of any foreign plot or power." - G. Bush, 2002.


Third, Republicans believe in a limited government grounded in constitutional principals. We believe in the free enterprise system and the encouragement of individual initiative. We hold dear the principals embodied in the constitution, that the powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed, and the rule of law.

"We who live in free market societies believe that growth, prosperity and ultimately human fulfillment, are created from the bottom up, not the government down. Only when the human spirit is allowed to invent and create, only when individuals are given a personal stake in deciding economic policies and benefiting from their success -- only then can societies remain economically alive, dynamic, progressive, and free. Trust the people. This is the one irrefutable lesson of the entire postwar period contradicting the notion that rigid government controls are essential to economic development." - R. Reagan, 1981.

This was from a commenter on my blog.

Now, if you look at that, I'm willing to bet most Democrats support all those things too, only for us, it's not just talk.

[evilqueen]

36. we can refute those claims in like ten minutes

but this is what Bush believers think he stands for. We can prove he's violated every single one of those values, and I did on my blog. The conversation quickly wandered away from there. They don't want to face that he's a "say one thing do another" kind of leader.

[leesa]

38. The answer is NOT to dumb down. Bad idea.

[bacchant]

39. YEAH, WE NEED A GEORGE W BUSH OF OUR OWN!

You've got it backward; the imbecile shit kickers in this country need to become more like us.

[bacchant]

40. delete

[bacchant]

41. delete

[QC]

44. delete

[dsc]

42. John Glenn is over 80 years old

which is why he wasn't considered.

[loyalsister]

43. Glad someone gets it

Obama gets it, too. He speaks the language.
Check out snips from "The Audacity of Hope" given at the DNC on July 28th. If John Kerry could have spoken for himself this way, he may have been able to connect with more people...

This year, in this election, we are called to reaffirm our values and commitments, to hold them against a hard reality and see how we are measuring up, to the legacy of our forbearers, and the promise of future generations.

John Kerry understands the ideals of community, faith, and sacrifice, because they’ve defined his life.

As I listened to him explain why he’d enlisted, his absolute faith in our country and its leaders, his devotion to duty and service, I thought this young man was all any of us might hope for in a child. But then I asked myself: Are we serving Shamus as well as he was serving us? I thought of more than 900 service men and women, sons and daughters, husbands and wives, friends and neighbors, who will not be returning to their hometowns. I thought of families I had met who were struggling to get by without a loved one’s full income, or whose loved ones had returned with a limb missing or with nerves shattered, but who still lacked long-term health benefits because they were reservists.

John Kerry believes in America. And he knows it’s not enough for just some of us to prosper. For alongside our famous individualism, there’s another ingredient in the American saga.

A belief that we are connected as one people. If there’s a child on the south side of Chicago who can’t read, that matters to me, even if it’s not my child. If there’s a senior citizen somewhere who can’t pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it’s not my grandmother. If there’s an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It’s that fundamental belief — I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sisters’ keeper — that makes this country work. It’s what allows us to pursue our individual dreams, yet still come together as a single American family. “E pluribus unum.” Out of many, one.

http://www.command-post.org/2004/2_archives/013937.html

[Hamlette]

45. I agree, and if you break it down, we DO share the same values.

They are concerned about their children leaving, using drugs, joining gangs. About a culture they watch on TV that seems all about consumerism and sex. We need to let them know that we think Brittney Spears is a bozo too. That we think the stuff on TV is crap too. That we don't want the "Hollywood lifestyle" either (the stereotype: immediate gratification, short term marriages, steamy sex gossip.)

I'm no prude. It doesn't offend me. But it doesn't interest me either.

[sangh0]

46. I've always thought that would be a good issue to explore

Lieberman has gotten a lot of heat on DU for wanting to regulate and rate TV and video games, but I think it might be an excellent way to show that we DO share values.

I'm no prude either, but I have to admit I was a little shocked to see a commercial for a hardware store with young children dancing in a sexually provocative manner.

Since when does seeing a 9 year old girl humping the air sell hammers?