Kerry campaign called off the lawyers.

[Senior citizen]

Remember the 10,000 lawyers the Kerry campaign had ready to fly to trouble spots to protect the vote? Mike Papantonio was one of them and he was waiting on the tarmac when he and the rest of the lawyers were called off. Reno asked him who called him off and he didn't answer the question, but it is obvious that only one entity COULD call them off--the entity that signed them up in the first place, which was the Kerry campaign.

Kerry knew there was election fraud going on, and apparently didn't want it stopped or investigated.

Had he merely conceded, it would have been bad enough, but to call off the lawyers he had promised us would protect our vote, is totally beyond the pale.

[ethereal]

1. Yup.

Looking that way, isn't it?

[Senior citizen]

2. Reno is going to travel the nation on a grassroots tour to

promote the investigation of and taking action against the election fraud.

Papp said that we have to move on and we don't want to look like whiners.

Is that the only alternative? What about fighting back? Reno is right on this one. When a second election is stolen, just forgetting about it and moving on is not an option. But this election wasn't stolen by the pukes. It was stolen by both the pukes and Dems working together to rob us of our vote, our choices, and our democracy.

Those weren't Kerry's lawyers, there to protect Kerry. They were OUR lawyers, who had volunteered to protect OUR vote. Yeah, we the little people, and we're mad as hell. The problem is that our system is so corrupt that we expect politicians to lie, and we have no recourse against them when they do. (Sarcasm on: Great country, huh?)

[senseandsensibility]

3. If what you say is true

it feels like a slap in the face to those of us who contributed money just for the hiring of lawyers to protect the integrity of the election. I want a refund.:-(

[sangh0]

5. *IF*???

Where's the link?

[hang a left]

4. link please.

Otherwise I consider this to be a rumor.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. I spoke to a live human at the Kerry Campaign HQ

at 3.30 AM on election night (actually on 11.03.04 since it was past midnight). I asked if they were gunna fight? I was told in no uncertain terms that they were. Unless something happens in the next few days, I will know I was lied to and I will not forget that. I see this as a campaign issue, not necesarily a party issue.

I remain who I am and I remain true to my personal principles. I want to also remain part of the democratic party.

But if I was lied to by my OWN party, well ....... I just don't know where to go now.

[gardenista]

9. Same here. I called and was told the same thing.

There is something very strange going on here.

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

12. Two possibilities I am weighing:

1. Elizabeth Edward's cancer was an expected diagnosis for the 3rd, and JK determined not to put her through it.

2. This is the calm before the storm.

[gardenista]

16. I wish those were the only two possibilities.

I don't think that Elizabeth Edward's cancer had anything to do with the decision. Of course I don't know for sure, but that is my instinct.

I wish that we were looking at option #2, but I have a feeling that this will all just fade away. I hope I'm wrong.

[BayStateBoy]

18. I agree with both your suppositions.

[The Zanti Regent]

20. You forgot #3

#3--Another Skull and Bones deal. Bonesmen swear a lifetime oath to look out for each other...

[demokatgurrl]

44. If this were true, Kerry would not have run against Bush.

[Leilani]

35. Elizabeth Edwards is a trooper!

I don't think her illness would have anything to do with this subject.

Matter of fact, if it was up to her, I bet they would contest it.

[graywarrior]

7. Why would Kerry want to lose the election?

Just curious.

[bigtree]

8. No one called US off

Get busy :

VotersUnite!

presents the following compilation of problems reported in the media about the 2004 general election. Starting with early voting, we are seeing a wide array of problems, some of which appear in multiple states. This page allows you to see how widespread the problems are as they accumulate: http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp

Active local communities increasing your voice by uniting with others across the nation. http://www.votersunite.org/info/groups.asp

[WilliamPitt]

10. Are you sure?

This is not what I am hearing. I don't claim to know what is happening, but the lawyers haven't gone home yet.

[graywarrior]

11. Enlighten me on this

I'm tired of the Kerry bashing.

[gardenista]

17. The lawyers are still on the job? nt

[zulchzulu]

13. Hint: You can't count air and call it a vote

No matter how long the lawyers would have taken (and charged nicely in the process), the issue would finally come down to votes that are untraceable. You can't count air. You can have a long trial and months of trial time and money used and you would still come to the same results. Besides a concession speech is more of a formality than a legally-held event.

We were gamed by Diebold and all the Repugs that made sure that the BBVs were there for this election.

But you still can't count air.

Besides, I'm sure there WILL be an investigation into the events and we can make this a HUGE wedge issue to use against the Repugs when the 2006 elections roll around.

Let's not get in a circular firing squad on this. We need each other NOW to keep up the momentum and get some real results in 2006 while making sure an investigation continues on this process.

If you want to think Kerry wanted to lose and gave up too quickly because you think he's stupid, then you are wrong. If you think there are not lawyers looking at this still, then you are clueless.

[graywarrior]

14. Total agreement on that one

[deadparrot]

15. Thank you. I agree.

Those votes are gone. You can't get them back, you can't tell which votes for * were genuine and which were fraudulent. There's no way to know. I think it will be investigated further, but I don't think it will change the ultimate outcome.

[BayStateBoy]

19. Well Stated. No Paper trail. Nothing to Recount & Not Enough Provisionals

[July]

40. I keep saying that. Even if Bush DID win, no-one can prove it.

Reason enough for me to refuse to call him my president.

We can NEVER know the true result because of unauditable machines. Never.

[no name no slogan]

24. I hope it's not too late by 2006...

This is an issue that Kerry and the DNC should have been talking about from Day One, along with the felon purge lists.

The evidence has been there since 2000, when Greg Palast exposed it in the Guardian UK, and also when Dennis Kucinich posted the FTP'd Diebold data to his congressional web site.

Unfortunately, in its efforts to not 'offend' anyone, the DNC and Kerry campaigns didn't even TALK about this, let alone make it an issue. So once again we see another election that looks like it was influenced by Black Box Voting AND inaccurate felon purge lists.

The time to fight this is NOW-- not in two years. By then, it may be too late.

[lanparty]

25. CHALLENGE ALL BBV VOTES!!!!

This is the ONLY sensible method of preserving Democracy.

It's not that we cannot prove that they are invalid. It's that election officials have NO WAY to audit their own records and demonstrate a validity in the process.

NO ONE, witnessed the precesseion of votes into the ballot box. No two parties from each side witnessed the counting process!!! Those processes were handled by software routines that leave ZERO physical trace of their existence. The programs that ran during the election could have delete themselves WITHOUT A TRACE!!!!

There are no witnesses to the vote counting process. They CANNOT possibly testify to seeing the votes properly stored and tabulated. Therefore, the votes are INVALID and VOID!!!!

Yes the direct challenging of millions of votes is EXTREME. And that would likely leave a bad taste in MANY voters mouths. But guess what, after this year, there votes won't be worth squat EVER AGAIN!!!!

[SoCalDem]

39. By 2006, it won't matter..

almost 1/3 of the country used "Vapor-vote-o-matic" this time, and by 06, you can rest assured that upwards of 2/3 will be using them. Repubes do NOT want "paper" associated with them, and we do not have the votes to push for it.. The repubes have no reason to push for it..they like things the way they are ..

We have seen the end of even remotely fair elections.. We will never again even KNOW who got the most votes..

The person who assumes office will be the one who is "chosen" to assume office, regardless of who got the most people to vote for them.. Pushing a place on a screen, does not mean that the person got the vote... it only means that the voter touched the screen..

[LizW]

41. There are paper ballots in parts of Florida

The counties that show huge increases in Bush votes in '04 over '00 are almost all optical scan counties, which use paper ballots.

The Repugs are claiming that incredible numbers of people registered Dem crossed over and voted for Bush. This could be tested by hand recounts of the paper ballots.

Both campaigns knew about these weird numbers before the polls closed on Tuesday. The Kerry campaign should have instantly called for a state-wide recount in Florida.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

22. That is a TOTALLY right wing talking point

you are busted 1radicalscream.

[StickNCA]

26. Moonbeam, why can't

anyone here have an unpopular viewpoint without being called a damn repug or some right winger?

Are we not free to say what is in our hearts?
Can we not have a thought that doesn't fit into your own mindset?

[Touchdown]

28. Because it's not an alternate viewpoint. It's a right wing story

and it's as old as the primaries.

[StickNCA]

29. Perhaps, but couldn't the same be said for many of the topics here?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

31. Nope

not many of us here echo right wing talking points as if they are the truth, LOL!

[StickNCA]

34. But there sure is a lot of echoing of the right wing

PERCEPTIONS of what we're all about!

That doesn't get called on.

They've been portraying us as God haters, manic depressives, far left wackos, and paranoids.

Many of the posts here play right into that and are simply food for the bullshit beast that follows us around.

[Lerkfish]

32. I have to say that there is no reason at all for dems to fear Hillary.

or even be concerned about her.

none at all.


its when rightwingers get transparent.

[StickNCA]

36. Fear Hillary?

Who the hell fears Hillary (except the repugs)?

I for one would love to see her as the VP candidate for '08.
I don't think she'll be able to deliver us the WH as the Presidential candidate due to the years of bullshit in the media that most of the people are at least familiar with.

I do find it odd however that the super-team that got her husband elected twice, failed so miserably in getting Kerry the top spot.
Does that feeling make me a right winger too?

Hell, any candidate is at the mercy of his/her team as to how best to address issues that pop up during a campaign.

The team's only good response was to early charges of THK's support of the Tides Foundation. That was dispatched quickly and went away FOREVER.

They failed miserably to do anything with the bs surroung JFK's war record, his discharge, etc.... why didn't they just have him sign the fucking 180 form and get rid of these false charges?

Why didn't they pursue who was really behind the Rather memos?

Why didn't they fight the election results?
I sent money to them FOR THE FIGHT, FOR THE ATTORNEYS to be on call, ready to lodge protests and writs. I stayed up to 4 in the fucking morning watching the networks frozen, not declaring anything else for either candidate and got to see Edwards come out and make his lying speech. Lying, you say? Yes.
He promised to keep it alive until every vote was counted and they backtracked on that in a matter of hours.

I'm pissed about how this turned out, how THEY gave up the fight.
WE didn't give up, THEY did.
and unless we look under he sheets and show them for what they are and what they did, WE're going to be stuck with this same shit again and again.

Not looking at the reasons and the results will keep us forever stuck in a second class role with regards to politics.

[Touchdown]

27. Right wing talking point.

I see you cleverly wore a pink triangle too. DEEP COVER there. :eyes:

It's not your pronouns, it's your message, and it's stale and easy to see. Gillespie has trained you well.

Have some more.

[Lerkfish]

30. ahh...the HILLARYMONSTER scares freepers.

scares you too, huh?

why is that? I honestly don't understand why hilary scares repukes so bad?

I don't feel strongly about her enough either way ....what do the repukes know that I don't?

[lanparty]

23. Kerry is dead to me !!!!

I'll never forgive him for this betrayal!!!!

Sounds like the Skull & Bones ties our stronger than those to his supporters!!!!

[info being]

33. So why do we want to fight for him? Screw it.

[cleangreencar]

37. Wow,

I forgot for a moment that they've given us a wedge to use amongst ourselves and left the triangle up post 11/3.

Obviously I'm new here and so am not as in touch with what is or isn't an old story. I just think about what I hear and see. Our party has let us down for 2 elections in a row after Clinton. The best timeline for Hillary would be '08 based solely on her gaining enough experience in New York. I like the idea of Hillary being where she belongs, I think she'd do a great job and that we shouldn't be shy of backing her. All I'm saying is that it's possible that Kerry's early concession is an internal strategy. We save money raised for lawsuits and use it as seed money for a real effort. Quietly win a few seats in '06 as we build to the big one in '08. If this is the case, we can relax and move forward rather than keep jumping up and down in rage.

[Flubadubya]

46. No Dem is winnin' nuttin' in 06 or 08 unless...

The issue of voter machine fraud is addressed and assailed head on! We really need to get our heads around this idea BIG TIME!!

As long as this is swept under the rug, we don't have a stinkn' snowball's chance in Hell to win any more elections for geneations to come. KAPEESH!? :argh:

[DeepModem Mom]

38. kick

[Malva Zebrina]

42. Nope, there is plausible denial

as long as no paper trails, Bush can claim anything he wants , even if challenged. All those churches coming out in droves, etc.

Best hope is that someone would come forward to whistle blow and even then, if there is no one with any interest, such as the Kerry team, it probably would not make it to the newspapers or twitted away as a nutcase who is lying.

There have been four years to straighten this thing out and no one straightened it out. It was up to the Democrats to make it a primary goal to protect our votes, and it simply languished. Why?

[sadiesworld]

43. You don't turn the US into a third world country democratically.

They got as far as they could through the media, fear of terrorism, and religion. The fraud was massive and (I fear) bi-partisan.

I desperately hope that I am wrong and you all will be laughing at me in a week or two for being such a tinfoil devotee.

[Hamlette]

45. we don't need lawyers at this point, we need computer experts

the army of lawyers were to be poll watchers (I was invited but couldn't go.) At least the part of the army I was in was to be there to help with voter rights at the time of voting. We were to look for the problems like what happened in 2000, primarily (or at least most visible) in Florida.

Now we need a different kind of action.

You don't get a recount unless the vote is within a certain percentage, is it 1%...or a half a percent. After that you have to pay for it yourself and I'm not sure if you always get one anyway. Anyone know?