Voting Fraud People - Take A Step Back For A Minute

[matcom]

I am afraid your wasting your time people. Hear me out before you throw you flames please.

Fist off. You are all probably 100% CORRECT in your accusations. I wouldn't put it past them to have stolen this.

Second. It doesn't make a DAMNED BIT of difference. Yup. IMHO, you are wasting your time and words.

Look people. You can't change it. Bush* is pResident. Yup. 4 more years. On January 20, it will be W* who will be standing on that stage. I am 100% POSITIVE of this. Your writing, letters, charts, graphs, speculation will NOT change this.

Just WHO do you think will report this? You think the NY Times will write that there is no more Democracy in the U.S.? rriiiiggghhhttttt.

Maybe next week Newsweek will run the cover story that the U.S. has worse voting system than Venezuela. rrriiiigggghhhhtttt.

I hear that Congress is about to let Bev Harris in for public hearings on BBV. CBS News will run her testimony live! rrriiiiggghhhhttt.

Next month, thanks to a report from the BBC, the Senate will revolt and declare the election a fraud. This will be breaking news on all stations and cause the public to rise up and demand impeachment. Hearings will begin and this will all be overturned by Xmas. rrriiigghhhhtttt

Sorry for the sarcasm but my point is, what exactly IS the point? is all of this for your own satisfaction?

Look. I readily admit that I am taking a break for a few months from all this shit (so you REALLY won't care what I have to say) but i DO have a track record over the last 4 years. Anyway, I have been in self-inspection mode and have come to a couple of conclusions. When I AM ready to come back swinging, my focus will likely be on the media. Folks, we have lost the media which means we have NO voice. All the writing you can muster will not benefit anyone except those here on DU. You are preaching to the choir.

Look, Will Pitt could interview Karl Rove, face to face, with a tape recorder, LIVE on local radio. Karl could look into Pitt's eyes laughing and SAY, "We stole this election thanks to Diebold. BBWWWAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAA. Democracy is dead thanks to me and John Ashcroft and we plan to kill all Liberals!"

Will could walk that tape into CNN Headquarters, give it to Wolf Blitzer personally and Wolfie would lead with the Lacy Peterson trial on his broadcast. Wolfie would CONVIENENTLY run out of time before getting to the tape, then "misplace" it later that evening.

All the writing and screaming in the world won't do any good until we demand accountability from our media. If a Civil Liberty falls in our forest and there is no one around to report it, did it ever really exist in the first place?

Again. You all are probably 100% correct in your charges of voter fraud. The general population will think your crazy because NOBODY will report it and unfortunately, it will never do any good.

Fight your media. It's a more worthy cause.

Again, just MHO and I hope i'm wrong. I wouldn't take the odds in Vegas though. Good luck.

[mzmolly]

1. I agree overall, but we have to do something. Perhaps it will only help

us in 2006-08 but change is needed, and this is the catalyst.

[matcom]

2. The Dem Party Says They Are "Rethinking their strategy"

and I think we here at DU need to do the same.

we have been down this road. writing letters that make US feel better. "reporting" on issues that NEVER made it to the mainstream. why? we have some DAMNED talented people here. some of what DUers have done should have been on the cover of EVERY newspaper in the country!

none of it made it to the mainstream.

we need to refocus our efforts. we need the media.

[mzmolly]

3. You are exactly right. And, we need to define OUR values. I won't let

the RW co-opt the word "moral" in the coming election.

[sangh0]

101. You're right because our values will kick their values ass

and in a head to head battle over morals, we have the advantage because we actually have some.

Moral values include much more than God, Gays, and Guns, and on those issues the American people agree with us.

[Steely_Dan]

35. Rethinking Strategy

But herein lies the problem...
If, in fact, the election was stolen and a majority of Americans voted for Kerry (and the Dem strategy/policies embedded), then WHY should we be rethinking our strategy?

I admit that we need to sharpen our approach and some of our strategy. However, if we actually won the election, why should we change our philosophy?

Just my humble opinion.

-P

[spooky3]

44. Well said.

[Eloriel]

50. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DISAGREE WITH MATCOM

(as I obviously, vigorously do) -- See this thread:

VOTE FRAUD? Tell everyone you know
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x1800

and this thread as well for good advice for choosing links to include:
More Rigor, Please, Use the Strong Evidence!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x1774

WE have to become the media. WE have to resist, and the very first step is making sure people know what's happening. Millions of Americans suspect it, now it's our job to raise the awareness even further and put some pressure on everywhere we can -- our friends and relatives, BLOGGERS, the media, Congress and other elected officials (don't forget state and local candidates, esp. those who may have lost), etc.

[Karenina]

87. The European media

may be a friend, indeed!

"AMERICAN CITIZENS INSIST THEY WERE CHEATED EN MASSE" the contoversy show no sign of dying down...
In other news the *misadministration criticizes Ubekistan's elections...

Pump up the spectre of doubt bigger than a float at Macy's Day Parade. Let the WORLD KNOW YOU SEE HIM AS ILLEGITIMATE. We all have seen him at his "best" here, insulting people, spewing rubbish, leaving tire tracks in the Queen's garden and TRAUMATIZING HER FLAMINGOS. You will NOT have the power to take the *monster on if you do not grab it by the throat NOW and deal with it according. Someone be SURE to bring a sharpened silver stake.

[RyomaSakamoto]

112. evilDoer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :faint:

:evilgrin:

[goclark]

66. Lots of it makes it to the main stream

Why would we roll over on this!


Never, never , never quit!


When I look in the mirror I want to be able to say, I never gave up fighting for Justice.


We are drum majors for Justice here.
We have no need to do what Rove wants us to do, roll over!

[springhill]

67. No, your advice sucks!

Because if we can't show what they are doing, we can't get rid of the mahines that are letting them do this. And you can talk about this election or that election, working hard, which candidate would be the best and it's not going to make a damn bit of difference. Our only hope is to expose them. So, yes, that is what we should be working on. Whatever we have to do. There has got to be someone out there who would do something with information of voter fraud. I refuse to belive that there is not one honest person in the media. As a whole, they are a bunch of crap. And if not that, something else. Because, as Paul Krugman says, the ONLY way we are going to stop them now is to expose their corruption in a very big way that cannot be ignored. That's what we should be doing.

[dbt]

4. Riddle me this, mat-man:

We have no accountability from our elected officials, yet we are going to get it from our media?

We have no recourse over a(nother) stolen election, yet we are going to change the media that now has even LESS reason than before to do any independent thinking, given the bu$h mandate?

Please, may I be wrong and you be right!

:hi:
dbt

[matcom]

6. we have no accountability from officials

precisely BECAUSE there is nobody (mainstream) to ask the questions or provide REAL reporting

one follows the other. its simple really.

public officials will NEVER HAVE to be accountable if they can get away with murder. not the other way around.

no politician will EVER walk up to a reporter and say "The Congress is corrupt"

it is the reporter who must do his/her job FIRST

[SoCalDem]

10. Reporters who suddenly started to grow a spine a few months ago

will not carefully place their tails back between their legs and grovel to Bush-almighty once again, like the whipped puppies they were before..

With 4 NEW years ahead of him, Bush is even bolder and nastier than before, and he will not tolerate the press to to a "good job".. As long as they are stenos, they will be allowed to play, but one step out of line and they will be composing ads for the Pennysaver, and they know it..

These people have mortgages, kids, car payments, and they are not about to sacrifice their own financial safety to write truth..

Sad..but true...

We will see puffpieces for at least the next 3 years..

[IdaBriggs]

5. You are wrong.

Have you read the New Hampshire recount threads? If not, you need to. Its not up to Bush or the media or whoever to elect the President. If we RECOUNT THE VOTES BY HAND, and the numbers DO match up to the Machine tallies, then I'll surrender. Until then, this is the equivalent of balancing your checkbook: Its just something RESPONSIBLE people do. :)

[matcom]

7. i have read them. read them all.

funny. i didn't see any of that in the Washington Post :shrug:

[spooky3]

45. Maybe they are waiting for all the evidence to come in. Let's give

Bev Harris et al. a chance.

[IdaBriggs]

84. Who cares? I started pressing for a NH recount...

on Wednesday night/Thursday morning. By Friday afternoon Ralph Nader had signed a request, and Susan Sarandon was talking about it on Bill Maher Friday night. I'm not giving up, matcom. There is an easy way to prove whether or not there is voter fraud (on purpose or on accident) in New Hampshire because, Lord LOVE Them, they have a paper trail!

Step 1, Step 2. I want a hand recount in every precinct in every state. Please.

And now I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that happens. (Nevada and Ohio look like a go, by the way! Woo Hoo! And I have to start crunching some numbers in New Mexico!)

But if you need to take a break, that's okay. We've got your back! :)

[Flubadubya]

8. But if we just DROP the voter fraud issue...

because the "media won't cover it", then they certainly never will. If the issues are not kept alive and PUSHED, they will not come to light, media or no.

That being said, I absolutely agree with you about the media being THE #1 problem in this country. Our stories will never see the light of day as long as they are structured as they are, i.e. corporate/GOP based.

The fact of the matter remains, nonetheless, that the issue of voter fraud is also THE #1 problem in this country. We simply cannot drop the matter because the media won't touch it.

So, what do we do? I wish I were smart enough to have the magic answer to that, but I am not. I believe, though, that there has to BE an answer. And for one thing I AM sure... we cannot simply ignore and forget about the voter fraud issue. It must be kept alive, and it must be pushed, no matter what the odds are of it never becoming a central theme in the media. We can't just abandon the #1 ill plaguing our country today.

Keep the dream alive is all I say. Someone once said, "Opportunity favors the prepared." Enough said with regard to the BBV matter. We must continue to investigate, probe, prod, and push on this. Proof might very well come to light that SO blows the lid off it that the media simply could not look away.

It still can happen, BUT NOT IF WE GIVE UP ON IT!

[Zuni]

9. I disagree for a few reasons

1. We know they cheated. It makes us feel better.
2. Thousands of people visit here just lurking---if they see the evidence threads---convincing just one person is worth the trouble
3. Perhaps an investigation will start---several Congresspeople have already called for an investigation. The GOP may control the government now, but if there is enough evidence someone will have to investigate.
4. If even one article about this makes it into print, people will read it
5. The more people learn about BBV, the more they will want it changed. Even Republicans might rue the day when they fear we can steal their elections
6. Woodward and Bernstein started as Tin Foil Hatters too, and then went on to uncover a massive criminal conspiracy to ... win an election.

[Xenus Sister]

11. If nothing else, the Historical Record needs to have the truth.

Future generations need to know what happened. They need to know that people cared enough to try and uncover the truth. They need to know that the truth was ignored by the media and the majority of Americans. They need to know that the majority of Americans were in a foggy haze while criminals blatantly stole the election and the country.

The children of the future will want to know that some people cared. Some people fought. Some people wouldn't give up.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. If there is anything I would contribute my puny little contributions to

It would be toward building up a fair media to compete. One would have to get past Powell and the rest who steer and clear the media to favor right wing agendas and shitty reporting. I would get more satisfaction from that than I would from beating a dead horse in order to prove the election was stolen again. It would take an enormous amount of time and past experience tells me that the voice will not be heard because of several factors--the Bush will control and hide and reinvent, it will look like sour grapes and not accomplish much as far as enlightening the electorate goes and our own in congress are far too weak and self focused, that I fear it will simply be another disappointment.

The Bush machine is just too powerful right now and that is being realistic and not defeatist. We lost and we lost because of that power.

If people can believe, in spite of all the lies, all the reinventions, all the slaughter, all of the screw ups, that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do, there is no hope that the same people are going to turn against Bush becasue two years from now it will be determined that the election was not a clean election. Another example of overwhelming power that might be applied to congressional inquiry, is the 9-11 panel and how that was manipulated by the Bush. None of the outstanding and conflicting questions re what happened have been addressed and information was hidden from us until after the election and I doubt it will ever be revealed to us.

We need to start a media that would fly in the face of them all and get some national coverage.

[blondeatlast]

22. I'd love to see some of the bloggers in print.

Atrios, Truthout, etc.

It can happen. How many DUers would subscribe to a Kos or Truthout monthly? I know I would.

We need to get our guys exposure on AAR, too. Most of us have heard Will speak and he's dynamic.

I think Greg Palast should get some seriously national exposure.

We have the talent, we need to find ways to spread it farther and wiser.

At least the dialog has begun.

[Booster]

33. The DNC needs to go out and get the best PR person they

can find to get the best of the Dems on every tv show possible. They need to look at how Pat Robertson & Jerry Falwell get on the mainstream shows as much as they do; they have no "new" message, just the same old shit year after year, yet they are on much more than they should be. TV mainstream is not going to call up the DNC and say send us your best spokespeople - we need to be pushy as Hell in getting our people on. In my opinion, the DNC is not spending our donation money in the best way possible. As we've seen by this last election, it's a PR game and Rove proved that. We need to wake up.

[blondeatlast]

59. Agreed, a huge overhaul in the PR department is called for. nt

[Malva Zebrina]

53. I am not talking about books

so many came out this go around that told the truth about Bush and they did not do the trick enough.

I mean things such as founding a respected newspaper--I think for instance,like one of the smaller ones like Christian Science Monitor--a good newspaper dedicated to good reporting, read and respected by many persons. I would not recommend using a name like that though because many think it is a religious publication which it is not. There may be a couple of ads or something, but nothing different than what is seen in the Sunday religious pages of national newspapers.

then, a tv slot to compete enough with the others--in my fantasy it would be like the original CNN

Course I am totally ignorant at what it would cost--probably billions.

[blondeatlast]

57. Actually, that was what I meant too, I admittedly should have been

clearer. And I think this is doable; seriously, how many DUers might up a few bucks for the start-up? I know I would.

With enough of us, it wouldn't have to be much per person.

[KitSileya]

13. I understand your frustration.

I really do. But this isn't about winning (even tho' it's about that too,) it's about fighting. How can we look at ourselves in the mirror in the mornings if we don't fight for democracy in the most influential nation on Earth? We may lose. But if we don't fight, we lose ourselves, our dignity, our beliefs, and we will be no better than the sheeple.

[hertopos]

14. Matcom , you are wrong.

If you don't investigate into e-voting fraud, Dem party will become a perpetual minority. It is a majority. I also wrote a short essey about how I feel and why I left Japan...

**************************************************************
Have you ever wonder why in all near future movies, there were no middle class and media's control everywhere. All media personalities look so perky and clean.

I knew media has lost its trustworthiness long before this election; however, my distrust deepened ever so profoundly through the night of November 2nd. I feel like I aged at least 10 years overnight.

I refocused fairly quickly by reading some of very early crucial posts on DU, including one by SoCalDemocrat and Skinner. The information about DFA also gave me a channel to act out. ( I went to their local meetup on November 3rd. This was the very first time I actually attend a political grass root activist meeting. I am still a resident alien but I am planning to become an American citizen soon despite the fact many Americans are thinking about leaving this country.)

Do you have any idea why Japanese people lost their interest in politics very long time ago? Because, the system was fixed long time ago. How you may ask? The way precincts are organized. In Japan, rural residents have enormous power to control the election outcome to the point demographically dominant urban residents feel powerless. At the same time, LDP control their rural base working on their ignorance and greed. (Japanese farmers cannot survive without huge subsidies.) Yes, after the bubble burst in 1985, there were a short period of Socialist administration and LDP break up. However, there is no 'grass root' activists’ base in Japan. In late 60's there were a small window of opportunity but it never materialized fully and eventually vanished. This is one of the reason I came to United State where people actually participate politics so that people can work for a better world. Make no mistakes there are increasing number of Japanese people who are very interested in causes. In fact, more and more younger generations are into NPOs, many of them, international organizations.

Now, back to this election…
Recall how most of November 2nd was like. Remember some MSNBC talking head slipped her/his tongue to call Kerry a soon to be president? Remember Zogby prediction? Remember Kennedy congratulated Kerry? Remember Hannity almost cried? Remember Tucker Carlson said Kerry won? Did you forget everything? Remember we were talking about what we should drink? Someone even asked about which Champaign is good?

We all knew and agreed that Kerry was going to win because of exit poll.

Once for all, let's make this 100% clear!! Exit poll is very accurate to the point it won't predict the wrong side to win. I have a PhD in Mathematics and I used to work in data modeling company. Well, exit poll is so accurate that in some cases it is actually used as a tool to verify the published results. (There is a small article about this in NYT yesterday. It was posted on DU but I did not have time to find a link.)

Now I start understanding where my rage is really coming from. As a scientist/ mathematician, we do analysis and conclude the result based on data and generally accepted theories. How could media discredit exit poll itself just because it may expose Republican fraud? All these media whores, who have been relying on exit polls for long time to predict the result until 2000, can say ‘exit poll is inaccurate'? How dare you denounce the well established scientific method just because it won’t fit in your corporate portfolio?

Well, I should not be surprised since Bush has been putting ‘his scientists’ left and right into committees and academies to get his ‘scientific result’.

I remember that I said 'but exit poll is right' when I first hard about CBS's 'mistake' in 2000. I was not quite sure what was going on with recount. However, I later learn what really happened in Florida. In 2000, voting fraud was done most at the level of sending out registration by manipulating database query.

People use Nazi Germany to describe * administration. In my opinion, this country is heading back to Mediaeval Age and theocracy, where science no longer matter, where our supreme court would become our 21st century Inquisition.

Unlike some DUers, I don’t feel anger towards most of people who voted for Bush because most of them would be treated even worse than most of us by Bush. Remember blue states are always helping red states economically. I just feel profound sorrow for them because they are so misinformed. Call me elitist if you like but sometimes the fact is just plain and simple.

I taught College level math for 8 years. Through those 8 years, there are so many adult who don’t understand the concept of theory, regardless of generally accepted scientific theory or mathematical theory. Any topics other than ‘pure moral value issues’ ( by the way gay issue is not a moral issue since it is already proved people are born gay, not by choice), I have enough reason to call them very misinformed.

Frankly speaking, I don’t want to hear anymore doubt about ‘massive e-voting fraud committed’. It is possible that Bush might have won popular vote thought most likely by such a huge margin. At the same time, Kerry won the electro votes as exit poll predicted.

We won. We won. We won.

Since the system itself is now high jacked, we are forced to prove our ‘theory’!! And make no mistake, we will.

Hertopos
***************************************************************

[spooky3]

15. Very interesting post, thank you.

[blackcatpgh]

17. kick (great post - n/t)

[spooky3]

16. Matcom, if you had been an adult in 1963, would you have given

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., ANY chance at all in succeeding to convince this country of the need for the Civil Rights Act of 1964? I wouldn't have. But he did succeed. And did the CRA make a difference? Absolutely. All the work is obviously not done, but my point is that sometimes change does happen, against all odds.

[KittyWampus]

18. The NYTimes Has Been REGULARLY Featuring BBV & Its Problems

on the editorial page... series of stuff entitled "Make Votes Count", I think.

So how do you know they won't cover this?

[Q]

19. What about the next election?

- Do you really want to go through this again...not knowing if the very system that elects our 'leader' is free of fraud?

[blondeatlast]

21. I didn't see before I posted below... That's where our energies need to

go.

We need to concentrate on nationally standardized ballots and making the system far more efficient.

If the turnout was this heavy for this election, imagine what 2008 will be like. and we don't have to wait that long; 2006 is looming large.

[blondeatlast]

20. I take it back--see this from robbedvoter

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/11/06/electionday_footage_.html

[Karmadillo]

23. Fighting the media is long term and a good idea. We can do that and still

attempt to overturn this election. I'm not convinced there's fraud, but DU posters have made a compelling case it needs to be investigated ASAP. Looking like we're crazy (we're mostly liberals and radicals here--in America, we're already crazy by definition) is a small price to pay for what a successful election challenge might achieve.

[Kazak]

24. Democracy is at stake,...

but we're wasting our time? If that's the case, then I for one will make time to be wasted. Think of all those who have died to protect this country.

[seabeyond]

25. hey matcom, of course it makes a difference

whether bush is pres or not, that he stole election and kerry won easily does make a difference a huge difference. what dems did to groundswell worked. people did want to reject bush. those two things do matter

[truebrit71]

26. Unfortunately Matcom you are 100% right...

I have been saying for MONTHS that the only way Lt AWOL steals this election and makes it look believable is if the corporate media keeps telling us it is a close run thing.

Anyone with half a brain knows that John Kerry won this thing going away. There has been plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth about what went wrong, what was 'wrong' with the message, what was 'wrong' with our plan and what needs to be changed in order to win next time. We did nothing wrong. We had the right message. We implemented it superbly. We got the party faithful motivated and actively involved in spreading the word and getting people registered. We got the fence-sitters off their collective arses and got them involved too.

Our candidate ran circles around the incumbent moron in the debates and the media said the polls said it was a tie. Our candidate gave the speech of his life at the DNC in Boston and the media said that the polls said it was a tie. The bodies kept piling up in Iraq but the media said the polls said it was a tie. The economy kept lurching along as at continued to bleed jobs but the media said the polls said it was a tie.

What the media DIDN'T tell you was that the polls were skewed in Smirky McChimpster's favour. They sampled more republicans than Democrats but the media said the polls said it was a tie.

If the media told you the truth they would have said that Senator Kerry had a nine-point lead. They would have told you that true to all of the indicators the incumbent was going to go down in flames. They would have told you as the results came in on Tuseday night that something was very, very wrong. They would have told you that something was fishy with the exit polling data being right in the states that had paper ballots and wrong in the states that used computer voting. They would have told you that it defies logic, sense and reason that someone can overcome a 9-point deficit to win the election.

But they didn't. The corporate media and their highly-paid whores did what they do best. Get on their knees and do their business.

The corporate media was a willing accomplice in this fraud and it makes not a bit of difference until such time as they are held accountable.

But I will say this. Whether the truth about this stolen election changes THIS result or not, we simply cannot allow it to happen again. Rove's last final fist-fucking of this once great nation will be a filibuster proof Senate in 2006. That is what keeps the Facist Dough-boy up at night with a raging hard-on. Instead of a lame-duck term worrying about it's "legacy", a filibuster proof Senate will insure that the final 2 years of the bush "presidency" gets to stack the courts with right-wing zealots and finally, at long last, dismantle that last semblance of the Great Society.

They are only 5 votes away from that goal. They know it, and so do their whores in the media. They will tell us for the next two years that the Democrats are "out of touch" with the "moral values" of the nation, and they will do whatever it takes to crush us.

So go ahead, take some time, relax (if you can) and then get your arse back here for the fight of your life. The very future of this nation and all the good it once stood for is one the line.

[hippiegranny]

93. wow... that was SOME post!

We have not yet BEGUN to fight!

[tblue37]

27. And yet

if we can't show that there was election fraud, how are we going to get election reform on the public agenda?

[Lost Creek]

28. Sad but TRUE

If they knew what i know about the BFEE most would want w in jail.

[bemildred]

29. It's all good. Let everybody pick their own fights. nt

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[matcom]

38. really Sparky? the dumbest?

i can assure you in all the years i have been here there have been FAR dumber posts.

let me tell you something pal. i am not discourageing anyone from doing anything.

boy, i've been here a hell of a long time. i, along with MANY on this board have walked the walk and talked the talk for Democracy.

got some news for you. go out and talk to your neighbors. ask THEM if this election was stolen. they will to a man, look at you like you have six heads. wanna know why? because there was NOTHING on their 6:00 30 second sound bite that ever MENTIONED THAT!

so, the point of my post (not that i feel a sudden urge to defend myself against a lllooooooooonnnggg time poster such as you) that you can shout from the rooftops all you fucking like about fraud. your neighbors will think your insane but that is about ALL you will get acomplished.

you want me to leave for good? you better DAMNED WELL be prepared to take up MY slack. before you make your decision know this: its a damned long, hard, tough job.

my guess is you don't have the guts.

[Red State Rebel]

46. You are dead on Matcom

Outside of DU and some other diehard dems, nobody and I mean NOBODY is thinking Vote fraud. There have been a few bleeps on the news about small problems but each has been followed up with the caveat "it had no effect on the outcome of the election". All of this is a lot of wasted energy.

To add insult to injury and have someone with under 200 posts tell you to leave because you see the truth of the situation absolutely stinks. I hope you stay - the Lounge would not be the same without Matcom News :)

[Joefess]

58. Pack it up.. It's over, matcom said so.

I bet you if Bev Harris worried about what her neighbors thought of her she would have quit a long time ago.


FYI: Post count NEVER makes up for lack of common sense.

[LWolf]

31. You've pinpointed the first place

we need to put our focus. The media. Revisit the fairness doctrine. Come up with something new. Something. Put all of the energy towards this now; because, until it is addressed, it really doesn't matter how right you are or how much evidence you have.

[hang a left]

32. Bottom Line Here

BBV fraud is fact not fiction, not conspiracy theory. The efforts to expose the fraud have been vast. People know. If nothing is done now, then when? If it has to turn this country on it's ear, I don't give a damn. We know longer choose our leaders, do you get it. We no longer decide what initiatives are passed. That means the people no longer have a voice. All this volunteering and reaching out to fellow citizens is just a waste of time cuz we have no say. We are done. We have a faux democracy. It is all for appearances. AND THEY ALL ARE IN ON IT. What a fucking waste of time and money, heart and soul, blood and tears.

[Hamlette]

34. I agree and I disagree

If there was vote fraud, it is not likely to change the election results. Here's how it plays out: first we prove there was fraud, then we get it into the media, then there has to be a push for impeachment. Congress is not likely to act unless their jobs are on the line so (my fantasy) we run pro-impeachment candidates in 2006. At that point Bush/Cheney have to step down or lose the house and Senate. It could be if the proof is clear and the outcry loud enough, Congress could act sooner but I don't think so. I don't think there is going to be clear enough proof prior to January 20 and I'm not sure there is a legal mechanism for upsetting the election after December 12. I don't think it's possible it can happen by then.

BUT, that does not mean the issue might not be Bush's Watergate. Think that one through. Watch the movie All the President's Men if you don't remember or at too young. One thing that freaked The Washington Post out was that no other major news outlet was following up on their stories. The story came out in drips and drabs as the evidence mounted. The Washington Post published it. Then they would watch the evening news to see how it was reported. Nothing.

One thing I do expect, if we can prove fraud, is there will be no Bush or Cheney fingerprints. (Remember the press call to the WhiteHouse when we all thought Bush had lost? And Bush looked like he thought he had lost? 2 possibilities: Bush knew he had lost OR it was a photo op to prove Bush thought he had lost and hence was not in on the fix.)

If Bush did not wrong, I don't think you can impeach him. I'm a lawyer and know a thing or two about the Constitution but I don't know of anything that would allow you to impeach the prez if one of his underlings did something wrong, even steal the election.

All we need is ONE PERSON with an audience to get this out. I don't suspect Jon Stewart could do anything but play a supporting role but he'd be great in it. Keith Olberman could do a bit more since's he a real news show, not a comedy show. We have two voices if we have the goods. You also have the foreign press which would LOVE this story. Didn't do much good in 2000 but it would be some help.

I am SO paranoid right now that I'm starting to think Rove did plant the National Guard memos with Rather. Think of it. The ENTIRE press core is terrified of going with a story that might prove false after what Rather went through with a story that was true, just with bad documents. Rove set the press up beautifully to cower them. We need a few brave souls.

[TankLV]

107. Umm - the national guard memos were NEVER "proven" false.

[info being]

36. It's a long-shot, but a victory here would change the USA forever

Kerry winning this election originally would pale in comparison.

Keep it up, it's worth a shot!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

39. I agree with this statement. I also agree with almost everything

matcom has laid down, except that I think it's important to still try to uncover and expose any possible fraud, though I am not super optimistic about our chances.

[BeFree]

37. You hope you are wrong?

What a stupid thing to say.

You, as a pseudo DU leader, needs to either shut the fuck up or get with the program. Your words here are disgusting and pusillanimous.

There being nothing easy about proving our case, you have just made it all that much harder. :puke:

BeFree - or be a slave.

[Sterling]

100. I agree this thread is really lame.

If we are collectively letting this slide by I give up. Seriously why should anyone who voted for us care. I won't. If we cannot focus on clean and fair elections then there is no point to being politically inclined in this country.

If I see to many more posts like this I will just take the red pill and go back to sleep watching football and waving at the flag.

[henslee]

40. In all negotiation, you aim for the stars and settle for the moon. We may

not turn this election around but to abandon this cause is the wrong thing to do. I bet plenty more will get into the act. At least the Black caucus will. They have to after 2000.

[Zomby Woof]

41. THANK YOU!

The "Draft Gore" unreality of 2 years ago has been replaced by this recount madness. TOO MANY DUERS LIVE IN FANTASY-LAND.

You are 100% correct. The jig is up... the fix is in, and we cannot stop what was decided Tuesday. Kerry won't undo his concession either, and the charges of fraud will never see the light of day.

I won't bother telling these sheep to wake up. They are as delusional as anyone who ever posted on DU.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

73. LOL

You strive to correct something UNCORRECTABLE. My 'own interests' - please define. You are wasting your time pursuing any 'correction' of a flawed and fixed system, paid for by the highest bidders.

I knife no one in the back - I have no stakes in this, because I disavow this fraudulent 'democracy'.

There is no dribble in the REASON and SENSE of my rational, non-delusional posts.

I have heard of attacking low-count posters, but this is a new one, LOL! :crazy:

You will get nowhere with this stupid game.

[RyomaSakamoto]

114. UNCORRECTABLE

ZombyWoof

[RyomaSakamoto]

113. yeeHaa, pass the xanax

Cheer up, Brian. You know what they say.
Some things in life are bad,
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle,
Don't grumble, give a whistle!
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...

the music fades into the song

...always look on the bright side of life!
whistle

Always look on the bright side of life...
If life seems jolly rotten,
There's something you've forgotten!
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing,

When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps,
Just purse your lips and whistle -- that's the thing!
And... always look on the bright side of life...

whistle
Come on!

more...
http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/filmtv/brian.html

[AmerDem]

42. the point is this

more then likely nothing will come of it but if the masses start speaking out endlessly heavy pressure will be applied to totally overhaul the voting system with goof proof standards and an exceptable recount system that everyone can agree to. There is no doubt in my mind if we can have these standards put forward, in one election we can take back everything. Unlike the new talking point the repukes are trying to push, they are far far from the majority. They fear true accountability.

On an added note. I read many of your posts over the last months and I have to say i'm really surprised you have taken to this do nothing approach. Now more then ever it's time to step up and be heard.

[matcom]

43. i am NOT saying "Do Nothing"

what i am saying is this:

go knock on your neighbors doors. ask them what they think of the voter fraud.

i did this today with 3 neighbors in passing (we were all raking leaves)

not ONE of them has heard about it OR believes it. one of my neighbors is liberal and voted for Kerry.

his reaction? "I haven't even heard JAMES CARVILLE say THAT!"

now, reread my post

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[matcom]

49. cool your jets pal cause YOU just made MY case

"This is DU and we fucking know what happened"

indeed this is DU and yes we DO KNOW what happened.

now, last time i checked, Kerry got 100% of the "DU VOTE"

good. great.

now what?

i am not DEMORALIZING you or anyone else here. frankly, if I can "demoralize" YOU with a simple observation on a message board, you need to get out more. The above is simply MY opinion.

agree or not. if i have "demoralized" you with some common sense, then don't pay your Matcom tithing this month :eyes:

[BeFree]

54. You have no effect on me

But there are many other people here who are in-experienced and those are the ones you have a negative effect on. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[matcom]

55. i'll NEVER be ashamed of my opinion

that is obviously what separates you and I.

i'm done with this thread. keep up the good fight. i hope you prevail.

[BeFree]

56. Your opinion

Is worth nothing more than spit, except when you use it to try and coerce people into thinking that whatever they do, fighting the good fight, is useless. It isn't your opinion that you should be ashamed of, it is your expression of it here without regard as to your superior DU position. Now, maybe you do not value your position here?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmerDem]

52. I read your post the first time, now

read mine again and start letting these clueless neighbors of your's know what fraud took place. Isn't that the whole idea about speaking out? I really can't believe you're carrying on like this. Why don't you stop wasting energy having fellow DUers do nothing and step up to the plate and start speaking out.

[WilliamPitt]

63. No one is talking about it

because no one is reporting on it.

That's going to change.

[dbt]

70. All RIGHT!

Been waitin' all day to hear that. Go PITT!

:bounce:
dbt

[EST]

105. DAMN F**KING RIGHT!

I swore to stand in the cold rain at the polls for 12 hours if I had to. I have shared my tiny hoard of wealth ("such as I have give I thee") with dem organizations and others who were working for a better country and a better world for the first time in my life. I wrote letters, originated and signed petitions, wrote emails, voted in thousands of polls, made phone calls, put up stickers and signs, volunteered anywhere and anytime I possibly could, helped register voters, helped people change their visions, slept very little, put myself in the hospital several times, did horrid damage to an already teetering state of ill health, had open heart surgery, and a whole bunch of shit too small to think about or mention. I was absolutely devastated when the predicted fraud was pulled off under our very collective noses and spent a number of desperate hours incommunacado and two days back in the clutches of the white uniformed guys with the very sharp little knives! But I'm back again and I will NOT run away to Canada or Europe or wherever! I am going to fight and fight and do everything I can possibly do to expose this fraud and save this country and I don't give a rat's ass if I have to do the whole fucking thing by myself (although I know I shan't have to), I WILL SUCCEED! Help me if you can. I know everybody will, in their own way, and we will pull this off. This is exactly what democracy in America looks like, right now, and the blood of patriots WILL be required. I am ready.

[saracat]

116. Count me in as well. I do a political TV show for the Democratic

Party in Phoenix and I am going to hammer this home. We are public access so no one can censor me ! And I think we ought to be convincing Dems to buy air time on local media! I am chair of my District and will place the suggestion before them. There are radio talk shoes you can buy time on and we have a liberal radio show that we could guest on. What does everybody think? We could do this district by district throught the nation. Small bites but great exposure. But it would have to be up to the individual districts because I am willing to bet the upper management of the Party would never go for it!

[progressivebydesign]

48. That's been my standard response for over a year...

.. When people complain about the Democrats aren't saying this, and they aren't doing that, and the Republicans have a better message, etc. I just remind them that our media is the hands of a FEW. And.. those FEW are republicans. This is NOT the free press the forefathers envisioned.

[FizzFuzz]

51. money donated to DNC and Dem philanthropists: BUILD A NETWORK

or buy one. We need our own Rupurt Murdoch, our own Viacom. We don't lack for newsworthy stories, nor do we lack for sensational crap that gets eyeballs (plenty of pukes molesting children), we lack for an outlet.

This is what I just wrote to DNC on their feedback form. Will they even read their fedback forms? Who knows, but clearly, our lack of a voice is what's BEEN killing us. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1337601&mesg_id=1337601

This and BBV should be double first place as our PRIORITY!!!!!!!!!!!

[Generic Other]

60. We have to take a stand sometime...

I've been fighting and screaming for 4 years as you have been. We thought we were almost done--that we'd saved our country. Turns out we were only halfway there.

Of course our target should be the media and the corporates. We saw the muscles we flexed during the Sinclair episode. And we need to keep after them. We need to declare war on the real terrorists in America. The traitors and the hypocrites.

But we are all able to fight this battle in our own ways. Some with pen and ink, some with heavy artillery. We can't discourage any of our warriors. We fight to the death each in his or her own way.

Maybe it is futile to demand a fair accounting of the vote. But silence equals surrender. We fight on every front only because we are surrounded.

There's no valid reason not to poison Bushy's "victory" party by pissing in the punchbowl, is there? Every vote challenged is a "no confidence" vote--no confidence in Bush and no confidence in the electoral system. Every protestor, every act of defiance, every angry word is a tiny wound and taken together will eventually bring down the evil empire we have wrought in this country.

Sorry, Matcom, I can't agree with you on this one.

[Auntie Bush]

72. I agree with you Generic

"*There's no valid reason not to poison Bushy's "victory" party by pissing in the punchbowl, is there? Every vote challenged is a "no confidence" vote--no confidence in Bush and no confidence in the electoral system. Every protestor, every act of defiance, every angry word is a tiny wound and taken together will eventually bring down the evil empire we have wrought in this country."

Let's all start PEEING! Sorry but I'm trying to still be a lady...but it's hard in this environment.

[Straight Shooter]

61. With all due respect, I think you are wrong

We fight this because we must fight it, we must prove that bush's so-called election is not valid. He is an UNVERIFIED president because it was his party that fought paper verification of our votes. If we lose this, we have lost the potential for a legitimate election forever. Count on it.

I see DAMAGE CONTROL all over the place from Rove and his media talking heads, and it started with DRUDGE and his flashing siren on the night of Black Tuesday, not to pay attention to exit polls.

bush once again has the stink of fraud clinging to him and we must fight the perception that he was elected, each of us in our own way. I am not going to let someone rape me and then turn around and claim that we "made love." That's how violated I feel by this rigged system. So, for me, let justice be done though the heavens may fall.

[WilliamPitt]

62. My brother, I hear in your voice tones of deep resignation

And as I stated in a previous thread, I begrudge no one their desire to leave all of this aside for the time being. You've earned the right, and I was there with you when you did.

I am focusing on this story for two reasons:

1. The iron is hot, the reports are everywhere, and though it will almost certainly not change this election, it is something that needs to be focused on;

2. If we had focused more on this stuff a year ago, we wouldn't be in this fix. I bear a degree of guilt on this; I was so intent on covering Iraq that I did not do nearly enough to address this issue. We all have dog in this hunt, because every future election will turn on it.

I could argue just as eloquently that fighting the media is an equal waste of time. Their financial respurces and full-spectrum spread make it unlikely that we will make much of a dent, and without Congress to re-regulate, the argument is academic.

But I am going to fight that fight, too. Why? Because it also has to be fought.

Keep your chin up.

[BeFree]

64. He has that right

But he doesn't have the right to broadcast it here in a way that tends to destroy the campaign.

The leaders of DU need to be aware of the effect their words have on members of this forum. That is if they have any respect for their standing.

There are many people here learning the 'ropes' and to see a leader of DU say: Quit, it's a waste of time and effort, goes against all that is good about DU. It's a shame.

[Goldmund]

109. What's a "leader of DU"?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

65. I disagree.

You know, they say that a lot (if not most) journalists are "liberal". We know that as a whole, the media isn't liberal due to corporate influence and attempts to be 'unbiased'. Journalists won't ignore something like this - in fact, there have already been Reuters stories on 'mistakenly' obtained extra Bush votes in Ohio.

This notion of voting fraud transcends partisanship.

Like someone has said, the NY Times reports on BBV regularly, as do other important media sources like Lou Dobbs. He's even had Bev Harris on. Why would he refrain from having her on again?

It all comes down to proof - if Bev Harris gets some, if the people at DU find some more, then the evidence will be undeniable.

[senseandsensibility]

68. Cynicism is easy

to understand given the current environment, and I can be cynical in the best of times. But it is not productive now. We got into this mess by being passive. We will not get out of it, on any level, be it through the media, or through the legal system, by staying silent.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

82. This is my struggle too

It seems like every hour I vacillate between cynicism and defiance. It would be easy to just turn off the TV for 4 years, and become one of those people who just barely cares about national or world politics. God knows I have my hands full at home with my business and my family; I have plenty of distractions.

But ultimately I care too much to be silent.

[senseandsensibility]

89. Good

I can only hope they are more like you, or we're in trouble. As a very young adult I was politically apathetic, and even skipped a couple of Presidential elections. My political awakening has been a long, hard battle and I have no intention of falling victim to apathy again!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

92. My story is a little different, but in the same place now

I was very active as a young adult, I worked in a store that sold TVs during IranContra and I watched all of it. I was amazed at the corruption and deceipt.

I was blown away by Bush Sr. winning in light of all that scandal, and that was the beginning of my cynical years. I started a family and a career and while I still cared, I only kept one eye on national politics and started to believe that all politicians were bad.

Dean brought me back in, and I was wholeheartedly behind Kerry, even working 14 hours on Tuesday in another state to help him win.

No way am I giving up now.

For me it's partly about my young kids, who know how much energy I've invested over the past 18 months and are watching me to see what I will do. It's my job to teach them that while we don't always win, if we believe in our path, we never ever give up.

[Trajan]

74. Matcom ....

One of the very few times I disagree with you ....

We are multidimensional beings who can do (and take action for or against) MANY different things simultaneously ....

Furthermore: It is NOW that we can raise these issues because they are current and fresh: allowing them to 'die on the vine' will do us no good in the future ....

Ah: the future: THIS is why we MUST raise these issues now: for the future .....

Yeah: Numbskull is and will remain our POTUS, BUT this doesnt mean we should bring these issues to the fore: they are legitimate issues for the nation as a whole ....

[tavalon]

94. And if we do this now

we can also undermine Smirky Shrubface's "mandate". Instill a little, hopefully a lot of doubt in the masses.

I agree that we aren't going to get this reversed, this nasty, antichrist POTUS is staying. George Bush is as well.

[Ramsey]

75. Fight fire with fire

We need to keep building our own media. We need our own cable networks and radio shows. We are way behind, we have to keep building those resources. And we have to keep boycotting the advertisers and letting them know why. It doesn't always work, but it has the potential to. All they care about is their bottom line, much more so than any political agenda. We made progress over Sinclair after all.

I personally believe that the networks and cable media will be obsolete in the near future. Younger people hardly watch TV, they use the Internet. Hell, I'm no whippersnapper and I never watch TV or cable. Ever. The revolution is online.

[txindy]

76. I'll take the Good Luck wishes, but am too busy to debate you.

You don't agree with us? Fine. Roll over and accept what's happened. Some of us will go down fighting. If 'they' win, it sure as h*ll won't be because I didn't try.

[UdoKier]

77. IT'S NOT ABOUT UNSEATING BUSH/GETTING IN KERRY!!!!!

It's about rrestoring the integrity of elections for all future elections?

What is with all these unproductive "forget about the voting machines" posts?


If we do nothing about the voting machines, we may as well write the whole thing off for good!

We can turn out EVERYBODY under the sun, but still get diebolded.

If this is the prevailing attitude on this issue, then thhere's no point in ANY kind of activism anyway, so I'll just blow it off altogether. is that what you want?

[tavalon]

95. uh huh n/t

[loudsue]

78. Hey, lil buddy... PLEASE don't leave.....You're too much a part of DU

You're part of the best part of DU! :yourock:

I know your frustration too well. I've been preaching for 3 1/2 years, to the point of being a two-issue poster, that if

1) We don't have a free press, and
2) We don't have legitimate elections

THEN, WE DON'T HAVE A DEMOCRACY!!

Legitimate elections and a free press are what MAKES a Democracy! You CAN'T have Democracy without those two things.

Your point about the press is EQUALLY as crucial as the vote. It is just that right now, it's time for intense activism on BOTH fronts...not time to back out of the battle.

There are many people active on DU who have pushed for Air America and helped make it real. And DUers in DROVES switched to Dish Network, as opposed to DirecTV, simply because Dish Network carries Free Speech TV, and isn't controlled by the Ruppert Murdochs of the world.

We participated in the activism that drove down the Sinclair Broadcasting stock during the run up to the election, and helped to open the way for the stockholder lawsuit, that is still underway.

The neocons are working psyops on us. We KNEW we had this election. But what better way could they have to demoralize the troops on our side, than to steal our election and NOT let the media report anything about it? Remember "Tokyo Rose"? Used EXCLUSIVELY to demoralize the troops? War mongers have been at this for decades... probably centuries, in one form or another. It's not new.

It's just that there are those of us who are old enough REMEMBER a freer press than we have now.... when music wasn't censored, and all the radio stations blared out our protest songs for all to hear and understand. When the Michael Moores and the 60-Minutes were the types of things that dealt with the big issues on TV screens across America.

We backed-off after Nixon left office. We saw what that got us -- it got us the mess we're in now. PLEASE DON'T BACK OFF NOW!! That's how we LOSE, not how we win. And every person DOES count. Of course, you count a little extra, 'cause you're Matcom, and you're Dadcom's son. Don't make Dadcom's vote for Kerry NOT count!!! That was a battle you fought and won! You can win others, and even if YOU don't know it.....I SURE AS HELL DO!!

We can't keep losing our best people to the war machine's Tokyo Rose propaganda!! If you're discouraged about the voter fraud threads, just remember that there are TWO fronts to fight on. Not everyone NEEDS to be on the voter fraud front....we need people on the media blasting front, as well.

Please, Matcom: just take a day to yourself, and get some R & R from this battle. Then jump back in when your strength is recovered. Don't you DARE go away!!

:cry: You're gonna make loudsue really really sad if you do.

:kick::kick::kick:

[uhhuh]

117. Hooray for loudsue!!

That is EXACTLY what we need. We need fighters on BOTH fronts.

These are the issues of our times. We must beat them on both counts to save this country.

Matcom knows his fight. Others know theirs. Some have the time and resources to wage both!

I don't think it is the time to come down on anyone's efforts. We have to be in this together.

We don't have to have lockstep unity, but we can't let these things divide us.

ANY effort to restore our democracy should be welcomed.

I'm really exicited about all the struggles ahead. I will never let those neocon bastards make me feel down about fighting the good fight, no matter how far off victory seems.

There are people here and across this country, who put evrything on the line to stem the rise of the chimp regime. People put their money, their health, their happiness, and their sanity in play for the hope that there was something they could do to make this country and the world a better place.

I won't walk away from it all because it didn't work this time. I won't be told there is no hope. We will beat them. We have to beat them, or go down trying.

Fight the fight that works for you, but engage that battle. They want us to do nothing. They will try to close all avenues to our success, and make us feel like giving up, but we have to laugh in their faces and press on.

The truth is, we know the truth. The country does not support a conservative agenda. There were no WMDs in Iraq. The war is not going well. The economy is pisspoor. The environment is a mess and getting worse. The rest of the world either hates or fears us. The chimp administration is filled with the biggest bunch of liars and criminals in the history of this country.

If we don't forget that these are good reasons to get up every day and take the fight to them, we win. Lies and tyranny always eventually fail. History proves this.

I think that's the best reason to start every day saying: "Alright, lets see how I can fuck those lying bastards today."

I can't imagine a better way to start the day. I'm pumped up and ready to kick some GOP ass. Who's with me?

[pdx_prog]

79. If we keep it alive

it will get attention. This is in the initial stages yet.....we can't let it go, we have an obligation to see it through. I have prepared myself for whatever may come of it. We can't just give up....see it through, see if it has legs...if it does, change may or may not become of it. We need to do this though.

[SoCalDemocrat]

80. WRONG WRONG WRONG

If we prove the election was STOLEN, and that Kery WON, then John Kerry WILL BE PRESIDENT and Bush will step down.

There is no way on God's green Earth that we will stand idly by and allow this election to be stolen for Bush.

[leesa]

81. I doubt it will change the outcome of this theft, but we can't just not

say anything. It needs to be said.

[Baja Margie]

83. I f nothing else, it will give impetus

to future close scrutiny or banishment of these machines. We are just blown away by the wizards: A1, Pitt, SoCal, the dude from Colorado,so many more I can't remember all of your names, but thank you, thank you for fighting. You guys are eloquent and smart as whips.

This isn't stroking.

[GreenPartyVoter]

85. Mat, this is why so many of us are working the grassroots angle instead

and fixing the voting systems one town, county, and state at a time.

*hugs*

-----------------------------------------------------------
Support Cobb, Nader, and Badnarik as they pursue recounts!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[SuburbanGA]

86. We get your point

but the bigger issue is no matter how we change our strategy we are subject to defeat based on voting fraud. 2004 was not the first time this happened. 2002 midterms were fraudulent but we sat back and blamed our leadership. I suspect that we were cheated out of senates seats due to voter fraud in 2002 namely max cleeland and gov barnes losing should have been the ultimate signal something was wrong. I know polls are not an exact science but perdue was at least 10 down in all polls

[Stephanie]

88. If we don't fight this war we will never get the machines fixed.

If we let this one slide all is lost.

[bigtree]

90. When should we start confronting the vote thieves?

Right before the next election? After data has been destroyed, memories faded?

Remember, the mandate Bush is claiming comes from a majority given to him through the manipulation of an incomplete count. More Democrats were herded into casting provisional ballots and another sizable group of Democrats around the nation, especially in Florida was persuaded to cast absentee ballots so that they would have a paper trail. The provisional and absentee ballots remain outstanding in a good number of states where we lost narrowly. Whose vote wasn't counted? Was it yours?

[Carni]

91. So what do you suggest we do?

I have higher hopes of exposing this election as fraudulent than I do of changing the media--yeah, we can cancel cable, or we can not watch the cable news whores but aside from that what can we do?

I am not flaming you just wondering what you would suggest towards taking these pigs in the media down.

[m berst]

96. It is our patriotic and sacred duty to try

Regardless of the practicality of it, regardless of the hope of winning.

Future generations will condemn us - and rightly so - if we don't give it every fiber of our beings.

[UdoKier]

97. Thanks! Now I won't have to bother with pesky news, voting, DU...

...or any of it anymore! I'll just go and be a good consumer, since it's all for naught anyway.

:shrug:

[RyomaSakamoto]

111. resistance IS futile

[ibegurpard]

98. We're not trying to overturn the election

We're trying to get rid of auditless vote-tallying software so that we can be reasonably confident that we're playing on a fair field.

[m berst]

99. Who are we? What have we become?

Some may think that these words from Sam Adams may seem corny or outdated.

I don't.

"If the people have put it in the power of a wicked and corrupt ministry to make themselves absolute lords and tyrants over them by means of a standing army, we may at present pity them under the misfortune; but future historians will record the story with astonishment and indignation, and posterity, who will share in the fatal effects of their folly and treachery, will accuse them."

"I Believe that no people ever yet groaned under the heavy yoke of slavery, but when they deserv'd it. This may be called a severe censure upon by far the greatest part of the nations in the world who are involv'd in the misery of servitude: But however they may be thought by some to deserve commiseration, the censure is just. The truth is, All might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they ought."

"Is it possible that millions could be enslaved by a few, which is a notorious fact, if all possessed the independent spirit of Brutus, who to his immortal honor, expelled the proud Tyrant of Rome, and his "royal and rebellious race?" If therefore a people will not be free; if they have not virtue enough to maintain their liberty against a presumptuous invader, they deserve no pity, and are to be treated with contempt and ignominy."

"Oppression stalk'd at large and pour'd abroad
Her unrelenting Train; Informers - Spies -
Hateful Projectors of aggrieving Schemes
To sell the starving many to the few,
And drain a thousand Ways th' exhausted Land...
And on the venal Bench
Instead of Justice, Party held the Scale,
And Violence the Sword."

[BuelahWitch]

102. A liberal non-DU friend of mine asked me about it

Said he heard there were more votes than voters in one area. So it IS starting to trickle out.

[Nederland]

103. You're right

You do have a track record over the last 4 years--and it sucks when it comes to making predictions.

You predicted victories in 2002.

You predicted Afghanistan would result in thousands of US causualties.

You predicted the invasion of Bagdad would result in tens of thousands of US causualties.

You predicted Kerry would win in a landslide.


Why should we believe you now?

[The Minus World]

104. We have no Magic Bullet.

It certainly is not a matter of black and white. Yes, the efforts made by members at DU - and on other left-leaning message boards - are doubted to incite the tectonic explosion needed to dethrone Bush; however, we have done a wonderful job of chipping away at the veneer and getting our message out into pockets of the mainstream - a task that deserves some recognition, at least.

Any research-compiling, by your definition, could be considered an exercise in futility if it does not produce the intended results.

That would imply that many of us on DU are needlessly resisting a greater current; one that we'd be better off conceding to, allowing it sweep us into oblivion.

For instance, imagine if nobody saw fit to investigate or analyze 9/11. Our government still hasn't offered a plausible explanation for the events that occurred; there are many questions that are still unanswered, and, as far as this administration is concerned, the 9/11 Commission report should have done the job of closing the case and shutting everyone up.

Many people believe that they aren't being told the truth, and they are toiling selflessly to discover what really happened - regardless of whether it's just pissing in the wind, as far as Bush and his buddies are concerned.

Should these people relinquish their hope, or just lie down and accept the official story?

You seem like a nice enough guy, but I have a feeling your sense of defeatism is getting to you. If you take a look at what is essentially right with the world, and what is essentially wrong with it; you'll see that the noblest among us champion the pursuit and dispensation of truth at all costs. Any progress in that direction, as far as I'm concerned, is definitely not a waste of time.

[TankLV]

106. Agree totally. If any action is taken, it should be to take over the

TV and radio studios.

Enter, take over, blockade yourselves in.

Demonstrate IN FRONT OF or INSIDE the stations.

It's the media that's got to change.

First is was "well, the repukes have more money, that's why they're all over the place".

Well, we had the money, and they STILL refused to air our side!

It's only gonna get worse.

Don't take to the streets - take it to the stations!

[Goldmund]

108. It works the other way around too

You can say that you'll never get through to the media as long as the executive and legislative (and increasingly, judicial) positions are stacked with neocons and their sympathizers. And you'll never get to change those if the vote counting is rigged.

Which isn't to say that your point about the importance of media fairness is any less valid because of this.

But, strategically speaking, the media and the government have a symbiotic relationship, and you can't assert your influence over one without influencing the other. It's really two sides of the same beast.

[RyomaSakamoto]

110. MSNBC's Keith OLBERMANN is reporting it ----------------> mp3

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/fraud04/fraud04.mp3 - 1.4M

psst... pass the word ;->

[bloom]

115. As much as I would like Bush* out - I would mostly like to be able to vote

- and there will never be any point in voting at the national level - ever - until the system is changed and brought up to par with Serbia. Audit-able ballots and checks - esp. whenever the vote total deviates from the exit polls or machines start counting backwords or there are more votes than there are voters, etc.

[NightOwwl]

118. Election fraud is a felony.

Circumstancial and physical evidence points to fraud. I believe it was premeditated and I'm not backing down. If I start getting discouraged, I just picture the headline in my mind, "Karl Rove Indicted for Masterminding 2004 Election Fraud"

[m berst]

119. Take a step back??

Haven't we been taking steps back and more steps back for years and years?

Why do we have to be called "voter fraud people?" We aren't the ones who committed the fraud.

Why not call us never-say-die patriots who put principle above clever practicality and who deeply care about democracy and who see it at risk, and rather than telling us to step back, encourage us to keep moving forward?

Why not? What are we hurting?

Why counsel caution and moderation?

Why recommend surrender and compliance?

Sorry, but it just stuns me to hear this.