Time for gay folk to play tit for tat!!

[theHandpuppet]

What we really need is an organized campaign to circulate petitions in every state calling for the outlawing of divorce. We need to gather enough signatures to force the issue on every state ballot in time for the 2006 elections. IT CAN BE DONE, especially with the support of our gay-friendly progressives and Dems.

The basis for said petition can be found among Christ's own words in the book of Matthew:

"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

In the name of DECENCY we will petition that all divorce be outlawed as well as remarriage by currently divorced persons, since said remarriage constitutes the crime of adultery.

Let the Repukes chew on that one for a while. Let them send out their fatass hypocritical mouthpieces like Rush Limpdick, Rudi Guiliani, John McCain, Newt Gingrich et al to defend their own divorces which fly in the face of their precious gospels. Let them spend their money and time fighting us on their own ground.

What do you think? Can it be done? Can gays protect the sanctity of marriage for straight folks?

[tedoll78]

1. I'd be in favor of such a move.

We can combine some sort of weird coalition of gay voters and fundies. And if we make it a campaign based heavily on scripture quotes, voters in the middle will be much more likely to associate such an "extreme" measure with the fundie right.

[theHandpuppet]

4. Here's more scripture:

1 Then Jesus left Capernaum and went southward to the region of Judea and into the area east of the Jordan River. As always there were the crowds, and as usual he taught them.

2 Some Pharisees came and tried to trap him with this question: "Should a man be allowed to divorce his wife?"

3 "What did Moses say about divorce?" Jesus asked them.

4 "Well, he permitted it," they replied. "He said a man merely has to write his wife an official letter of divorce and send her away."

5 But Jesus responded, "He wrote those instructions only as a concession to your hard-hearted wickedness.

6 But God's plan was seen from the beginning of creation, for 'He made them male and female.' 7 'This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife,
8 and the two are united into one.' F50 Since they are no longer two but one, 9 let no one separate them, for God has joined them together."

10 Later, when he was alone with his disciples in the house, they brought up the subject again. 11 He told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and remarries, she commits adultery."

— Mark 10:1-12 (NLT)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. there should be laws against onanism (nt)

[Petrushka]

68. Uh-oh! Says nuthin' 'bout wife divorcin' hubby. Hm-m. (n/t)

[foo_bar]

2. I'm for anything that provokes cognitive dissonance

We could flip Louisiana with a Levitical anti-shellfish initiative.

Lobster Boat Veterans for Youth!

[Swamp Rat]

47. Every crawfish sacred as a fetus?

That'll NEVER work here. It might work for Lobster Libruls but not for godfeerin' Crawdaddy Conservatives - cognitive dissonance is genetic here.

[TroglodyteScholar]

3. YES. Save the sanctity of marriage! Outlaw divorce!

I am 100% for this idea. Everyone needs to write their representatives and senators post-haste. If we can get the Dem leadership to pick this up, we'll show the nation who has values. If the Repugs try to stand in the way, it'll be very clear how much they cherish the family.

I'm absolutely embarrassed that nobody did anything like this prior to the election.

I don't think it should be a "gays save marriage" thing, tho...it should be a "Democrats have real family values" thing..

[theHandpuppet]

5. Good idea

What we have to do now is ORGANIZE, find out what it would take in each state to petition this ballot proposal.

[bluedog]

6. who can we get

to get this on the ballot........excellent idea..............fight fire with fire.....boy that hits half the GOP party when it comes to D_I_V_O_R_C_E

[theHandpuppet]

9. How about as a rider...

... on any FMA proposal? Do you think we could find a Dem who would do it? Should that fail, we could be prepared to place it on every state ballot for the 2006 elections.

[Boomer]

10. GREAT idea!

Yes, let's see if there are any Dems or moderate Repugs out there who are brave enough to add a rider that REALLY supports the institution of marriage.

This would force a rational examination of the entire issue.

[meow2u3]

62. Don't even think about using the phrase "family values"

I don't think it should be a "gays save marriage" thing, tho...it should be a "Democrats have real family values" thing..

Democrats support family integrity!

[meganmonkey]

7. Splendid idea!

It always drives me crazy when people say shit like
"allowing gays to get married threatens the whole institution of marriage"
as if heterosexual marriage is some successful thing. Don't roughly 50% of marriages end in divorce? How absurd. We should call the fundies out on that.

Plus, you said 'tit'! Hee hee!

:P

[Lindacooks]

8. Not only that, but any politician who has been divorced should be

banned from public office forever.

I really like this idea.

[theHandpuppet]

11. DING! DING! DING!

By the Gods, we've got these hypocrites by the short hairs, folks! Look at these stats for the divorce rates in the US -- all those goddamn NE liberal states have the lowest divorce rates, while the highest are to be found in RED STATES!!

http://www.divorcereform.org/94staterates.html
http://www.divorcereform.org/rates.html

We have GOT to pursue this, folks!

[ruggerson]

12. I've always thought this is the single best idea for a grassroots effort

How do we get started? Shouldn't there be a central website and then grassroot efforts in each states to handle the petitions?

[bluedog]

13. gotta share this

I suggested this on yahoo.some guy said
why.two people who hate each other want out and can't and this will increase domestic violence.I gave him the Matthew quote and he said..you shouldn't take the Bible too seriously....LOL...they hate this idea......it turned this man into thinking maybe the Bible was not right in that scripture..

[bluedog]

17. In a GOP right words

"
So you would rather have 2 people live together who hate each other, lets their kids see it, refuse to allow people the right to choose,

Thats not the sanctity of marriage. My god man. Thats the taliban"


got them we got them LOL

[calimary]

77. Oooh, LOVE that one: "refuse to allow people the right to choose?"

Oh, wait a minute. PEOPLE get the right to choose. I guess women aren't really "people."

[theHandpuppet]

18. Typical fundie logic

They don't want two people who love each other to marrry, but two people who hate each other should of course be allowed to divorce. My oh my, how that Scripture makes for a moving target!

[JVS]

14. That would be great

[dogman]

15. Outfundie the fundies.

Too cool.

[theHandpuppet]

16. Even More Revealing Statistics

from:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The sampling error is within 2 percentage points. The survey found:

A. 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
B. 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
C. Divorce rates among conservative Christians were much higher than for other faith groups, and for Atheists and Agnostics.

[seabeyond]

19. i havent had a divorce. lets all do it, i can be condescending

self righteous, holier than thou. leviticus......divorce shell fish and gays

[Walt Starr]

20. Absolutely!

Great idea! Beat the hypocritical bastards at their own game!

[ldf]

21. YES!

it's about time the "revolving door, bed hopping heterosexual marriage" was exposed for what it really is.

:evilgrin:

[Walt Starr]

25. All Marriages where one partner has divorced should be NULL AND VOID!!!!!!

Can't forget that those marriages are violating GOD'S WORD!!!!!

[KitSileya]

22. Good going!

As a Catholic, I cannot but agree..... And yeah, it sure would stick in their craw!

Remember, their great saint Ronald was also divorced......

Edited to correct spelling mistake.

[antigone382]

23. Yes, and all those who have had divorces must remain unmarried

Allowing divorced people to remarry is destroying the sanctity of marriage! Anyone who has had a divorce must leave their illegitimate "partner" immediately, and will be ordered to attend special faith-based self-help groups, which will "reeducate" these poor sinners, teaching them how to combat their evil desires and live in the purity of the word, by reuniting with their first and only legitimate spouse. If they do not wish to re-enter the bonds of holy matrimony which are required of them by the scriptures, they will be relocated to a special reservation for sexual deviants.

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[T Bone]

64. All those divorced and with children are now forbidden to have sex

at all. After all they weren't responsible getting married, having sex and children and then getting divorced. Therefore sex is now forbidden to them. Anyone caught violating this prohibition of any further sex would be castrated? It would be a good make work program as well, catching them and castrating them.

[txdude10]

24. Great, great idea...

I have posted elsewhere that one of the ways Progressives are going to start winning again is to beat Republicans at their odious political game. So, Karl Rove wants a gay marriage ban amendment introduced in Congress? Well, let him have it. Rather than fighting this, Democrats should introduce their own divorce ban amendment. Let's force this issue on every state ballot as well.

But we shouldn't stop there. How about generating enough petitions to introduce a measure at the state ballot that would allow each state to keep a greater proportion of its tax revenues rather than sending it to Congress. Think of what this would do to the so-called red states, most of which rank at the bottom on most empirical measures of quality of life. Sure, this has the potential to gut the core of the 16th Amendment and to further degrade the quality of life in the South. But maybe this is what's needed to wake up the morons in the red states. We could name such initiative as "Get More for your Taxes Initiative" or "Tax Freedom for the States" or something emotionally appealing to the fundies in the red states.

[Walt Starr]

26. Either you support marriage or you don't

and you cannot support marriage if you support divorce.

Never a more plain black and white scenarios has ever existed.

[Boomer]

27. Web site to come!

theHandpuppet and I have joined forces to construct a web site as a central clearinghouse for this issue and to coordinate efforts to make this more than a theoretical effort.

Our focus will be getting a divorce rider attached to any "marriage defense" legislation, and failing that to gather petitions to place it on state ballots. We'll also showcase statistics on divorce that show the hypocrisy of these family values people.

I'd love to hear any suggestions for naming this effort.

Our goal is to have the web site up and running by next week. We'll be sure to post details and a link here on DU.

[Walt Starr]

29. Until you get the web site up, I'll try to sloganeer for you in this threa

I'm having fun with this.

[Walt Starr]

28. If you support divorce, you are going to Hell

because if you support divorce, you cannot support marriage and thus you cannot support God.

[Stephanie]

30. We should also criminalize adultery.

We have to make it a crime to cheat on your wife.

[ruggerson]

31. Punishable by stoning n/t

[Walt Starr]

33. Says so, right there in Leviticus!

Lets make shellfish illegal, too, for eating them is an abomination before the Lord!

[Swamp Rat]

49. GOOD! More crawfish for me!

I AM an abomination before the lord ... you are what you eat. :D

See the tasty pic in post #47

[ruggerson]

32. You guys are going to need Red Staters for this effort

it will be most effective in the red states. the main push should be to get it on the ballot as a referendum initiative. Do we have any constitutional lawyers here on DU who can help with the wording of the initiative so that it can be consistent in each state?

[oldhippie]

36. Not all states have ballot initiative provisions ....

in their state constitutions. I'm not sure which are which, but many have no initiative process. All laws must go through the legislature. Good luck getting all the (divorce) lawyers on our side.

[theHandpuppet]

39. Yes, that's the kind of information...

... we need to research. Also, I think this is why it is best to first try the proposal as a rider on the FMA. But I agree with another poster here who said that should we carry this to a state ballot issue, the wording needs to be consistent.

Question is, can we find a Dem in Congress who would be brave enough to support this, and:

Two, can we find the kind of legal volunteers who can help us mount this effort?

[arewenotdemo]

70. Barney Frank?

[anakie]

34. it is a logical extension of the arguement

for the sanctity of marriage; marriage being between 1 man and 1 woman FOREVER! Put that in your constitutional amendment.

[lawladyprof]

35. And here's another one

No birth control and outlaw in vitro fertilization hooked onto any anti-abortion stuff.

[lawladyprof]

37. Well only birth control pills

Let 'em all use barrier stuff a la before Grizzold v. Connecticut

[BuelahWitch]

73. What about outlawing Viagra?

Don't take the birth control away, take away the meds that make men horny...

[chimp chump]

38. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife,

They'll just say "It says his wife. Not her wife or his husband."

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Except for a few small fundamentalist sects, you can't get far with this divorce ban.

[Boomer]

41. You're missing the point

>> Except for a few small fundamentalist sects, you can't get far with this divorce ban.<<

The point is not to actually pass the ban, it's to force a dialogue about the illogic of supporting the institution of marriage by banning gay unions.

Marriage IS deteriorating, but it's divorce rates that are creating the greater damage. So any debate that pushes the issue of divorce onto the same platform as gay marriage will highlight the hypocrisy of blaming anyone but heterosexuals for this problem.

[chimp chump]

46. But aren't divorce rates declining from the rates of the 70s-90s?

That's what it seems to indicate when I look at that divorce reform site.

What I read more about these days is that the social engineering types are more worried about the growing trend toward cohabiting among the younger folks. They don't marry and they don't divorce. They just live together.

Look around for rants on cohabiting. BTW, the fundie term would be fornication. Drives the clergy crazy. Maybe even more than divorce does.

[KitSileya]

53. And not her husband, either

....so.....

However, the point is that Jesus expressly spoke against divorce. If they're pushing the gay marriage amendment to protect marriage, they must also support a divorce ban. There's better scriptural support for that, than against gay relationships and abortion.

[ruggerson]

40. Ok, how's this as a template:

Marriage, being the cornerstone of society, is a lifelong commitment. Once contracted, that commitment shall never be legally dissolved and the state shall not recognize any dissolution of marriage contracts.


Suggestions, edits?

[SPQR]

43. It's a great idea,

but I don't think quoting Jesus is going have much of an impact on christians.

[Silverhair]

44. Do you enjoy beating your head against a brick wall?

You will spend a lot of energy and accomplish exactly nothing. You are thinking in terms of theater, not election reality. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that you could get it on the ballot in all 50 states and the territories. It would simply fail of passage - massively. And in doing so it would demonstrate your political impotence.

You would be like that WWII Polish calvary unit that charged against German tanks. Very brave, very useless.

[Boomer]

50. Is satire useless?

>>You are thinking in terms of theater, not election reality.<<

Yes, this is theater: theater of the absurd. That's the point.

[TalkingDog]

45. Just today, we were just discussing

what our gay friends should do.

And then we hit up on a great idea. Many of you are hopefully too young to remember what happened in neighborhoods all over America in the 1970's. Because laws had been enacted to prevent discrimination against prospective home buyers, many black people were "movin' on up" in the lingo of the day. And when a black family would move into a middle class white neighborhood, all the bigoted white families who thought their houses were being devalued would move away immediately. It still makes me cringe to think about it.

So I started thinking. If gay people started joining ultra-conservative churches and totally adopting Bush's "tabernacle-taliban" ideal (at least paying lip service to it)while still being openly gay, it would be the Christian version of "white flight" all over again.

I know, it's just a fantasy. But still, I'd love to see the looks on their faces.

[PurityOfEssence]

48. Refuse to do business with anyone who voted for Bush

If you can afford to do so, that is; we must all be a bit more concerned about our economic future...

But if you can, ask those who come into your shop, seek to do business with you or seek to sell you something if they voted for Bush. If so, tell them to be gone.

[Swamp Rat]

51. GREAT idea!

We gotta stop those adulterous fornicators from destroying the sandtitty of maryage.

[Kingshakabobo]

52. I think it is a great idea.

Also, I think it would sell in the "blue" states as well as the "red" states.
Most progressive people, I think, would see it as "blue state" revenge and happily sign a petition with tongue planted in cheek. Plus, it would be a blast standing on a street corner collecting signatures for this item. Where do I sign up?

[bluedog]

54. I found a church for one to contact.............

As Christians and as Baptists, we particularly lament the denigration of our gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender sisters and brothers in this debate by those who claim to speak for God. We affirm that the Alliance of Baptists supports the rights of all citizens to full marriage equality, and we affirm anew that the Alliance will “create places of refuge and renewal for those who are ignored by the church.”


This Statement of Concern was adopted at the Annual Meeting of the Alliance of Baptists meeting at First Baptist Church in Dayton, Ohio.


© 2004, Alliance of Baptists
1328 16th Street NW, Washington, DC 20036
202-745-7609; 866-745-7609

http://www.buddybuddy.com/church07.html

[Snellius]

55. We also need a petition calling for enforced child-bearing

Marriage without children is worse than abortion. As Karl Rove has preached in his sermon this Sunday, we should strive for the ideal and couples without offspring are either just hedonists or have been cursed by god. Any union that does not produce progeny within a certain prescribed period of time should be declared legally invalid so the members of that fruitless union can, according to god's plan, find new breeding stock. Amendments could be added in the future prescibing the ideal number of children, say 2.3 for the average couple.

[DuaneBidoux]

56. I've been telling my christofascist uncle he's living in sin for years.

[NEDem]

57. I love this idea!!!

I'm in a solid (I mean really solid) red state and I'd love to do this. I'm married, never been divorced and I can be as self-righteous as any xian. This is a GREAT idea! Don't let it stop here, keep working on it and then tell us red staters what you want done.

[liberal_in_GA]

61. Sign me up too...

Married, never divorced, and would VERY happily mess with a few fundies down here.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

58. That's right

this whole "sanctity of marriage" bullshit is just a cover for their bigotry anyway.

The only sanctity in marriage is what it put into it by the people in it. My marriage doesn't have sanctity because some entity such as the government or some church gave it sanctity (we weren't married in a church, anyway).

When you've got people marrying in Las Vegas who have known each other all of three hours, when you've got people getting married on TV as part of a reality/game show, there's NO SANCTITY TO MARRIAGE.

It's just a bullshit cover for bigotry.

I love it when fundies bring up homosexuality being immoral according to the Bible, because then I love to throw in their faces that divorce is ALSO immoral according to the Bible and when exactly are we going to outlaw that?

Also, most of the most sanctimonious fundies I know are DIVORCED and remarried. So I'm talking about them.

On edit: neither Mr. Moonbeam and I have ever been divorced, so we can look down our noses at them. Most of the fundies we know have been.

Such a great idea. I actually suggested it to some friends a few years back and we had a good laugh over it.

Wasn't divorce or adulterty punishable by stoning in Leviticus?

Believe me, the fundies do NOT want a Bible-based society.

[captain disgruntled]

59. Teeheeee!!!

I also love this idea fervently--probably because of its inherent absurdity.
Alas, both my spouse and I are previously married...and if I were forcibly returned to my first husband, theatrical protest would NOT be what ensued.
But then I also sometimes wear fabric which is *gasp* a blend of linen and wool!!!! Are there no depths to which I will not sink???!

Sign me up!

[Shopaholic]

60. Love it!

Let's do it. Let's throw this shit right back into their faces and let them see that they cannot legislate "morality". What in hell do they think they can do? Take away TV, Music, Books, Films? Wait--don't answer that-they probably do. I heard one talking head say today (Safire, I think) that the election was about Janet Jackson's Breast! Who knew--I thought that we were fighting for the very course of history of our country and all the while it turns out that what this election was really about was marriage and breasts and guns and moral values! So let's just float the idea of a divorce ban. That should make several Republican senators downright miserable given their great love of multiple marriages.

[Stinky The Clown]

63. Nice thought, but it will be seen for what it is

And in the end it will hurt us more than help us.

[theHandpuppet]

71. As if it could hurt us any more than we've already been

If nothing else it will force a dialogue in this country not only over the issue of civil rights for gays, but just how much of theocracy America wants to become. No one will be immune. If they're going to drag us down that road, then by God they're coming along for the ride. Perhaps a view from the passenger seat will give some folks a whole new perspective on the Talibornagain objectives.

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

65. Errr.... guess what? That's already on the fundy agenda.

Right after they outlaw abortion & evolution, implement the final solution to queers, forbid women working outside the home, burn the witches, and public stoning for adultery.

[donheld]

66. Outlaw Eating of Eggs

Every egg eaten is an abortion.

[fishface]

67. I thought the Catholics had this covered by telling their sheep

that God loves them but if you divorce the bitch that cheated on you that YOU would go to purgatory or some such shit?

Didn't seem to bother them anymore than having people like Newt Gingrich representing the party of 'morals' did.

[timtom]

69. Gay, Schmay!

This is a brilliant idea for EVERYONE. Throw it back in their G(osh) D(arn) faces!

I'm in!

[baltodemvet]

72. A cute conceit

but no. I oppose this.

[auburngrad82]

74. This won't work but busting the repukes on their own "family values" will.

Every divorce by a GOP needs to be investigated to see if the repuke in question cheated on their spouse. Internet searches reveal a lot of juicy information. For instance, Tim Hutchinson, a repuke Senator from Arkansas, left his wife and kids after 29 years of marriage because he had an affair. Newt Gingrich had an affair with a Congressional intern at the same time the GOP was persecuting Clinton for "moral failures." Bob Barr (Rep, GA) has been married three times. His second wife had an abortion (Barr is a staunch opponent to abortion yet did nothing to stop his wife from aborting their unborn child) prior to their divorce. By the way, Barr was already having an affair with his future third-wife while still married to his second wife. The list goes on and on.

Enrage their fundamentalist base by exposing the hypocrites for their "immorality".

We need to set up a network of monitors that pull items out of the news about morally questionable activities by GOP members and their conservative supporters.

If you want more, let me know. I have a list of about 75 past and current GOP members that are morally bankrupt. If you know of any others let me know.

[baldguy]

75. Make it retroactive.

After all, they want to dissolve marriages ALREADY recognised, just because they happen to be between people they don't think should be married. It only makes sense to dissolve ALL marriages other than a first marriage.

[corker]

76. kick