Embrace the full HORROR of the NIGHTMARE

[Walt Starr]

For as long as I've been a voter, Democrats have told me how horrible things will be with a fully Republican government. I listened carefully to the rhetoric and arguments of both sides and concluded this was a correct analysis of the Republican agenda.

Joe Sixpack has heard this analysis, too. But Joe saw for the past two years how this fully Republican government didn't do all of the nasty things the Democrats said they would! Joe has concluded the analysis was wrong and it's safe to go ahead and vote for that $300 in his pocket from a tax cut!

The time has come to fully embrace the horror. Let Joe find out what a fully functioning Republican agenda is all about. It will mean disastrous consequences to personal freedom for two generations, but the time has come to allow the nation to see just how bad things can get. In the end, there is simply not enough Democratic power to stop it over the next two years.

If we don't push the Republicans even further to the right over the next two years, I'd say the following two years will affect our children's children's children their entire lives. Why, you might ask? Because if, over the next two year, the Republican government is still not as bad as the Democrats always said it would be, we will lose even more seats in both the Senate and the House.

We are on the brink of single party rule for multiple generations to come. If we allow the Republicans to moderate their stance even one bit, we are walking right into their trap. If we continue trying to keep the full horror from being implemented, we will continue to be the scapegoats in future elections, thus guaranteeing their agenda is fully implemented with no method of altering the course at the ballot box.

Push the bastards of the cliff on the right side of the aisle. Your grandchildren's children will thank you for it.

[Bridget Burke]

1. So, we should just go along with the Republicans?

Our representatives should not try any obstruction or filibuster? They should never try to work with the few reasonable Republicans left to fight the extremists? They should give no speeches?

And we, the public, should shut up as well?

You are quite transparent.

[Walt Starr]

2. No filibusters for one year minimum

Yes, I'm quite transparent. Strategic long-view thinking is required when you are in such a position of weakness. They do not want to implement their agenda at this time. They still need to consolidate their power in order to do it. They need their scapegoats for why they cannot implement their agenda.

Bush has baited us and we are taking it hook, line, and sinker.

The Democrats in the Senate need to make it clear, they are in no position to filibuster and any talk of filibustering must come from the Republicans.

Specter, Chaffee, Snowe, and some others NEED the Democratic filibusters of the far right agenda. LEt THEM be the obstructionists.

If not, we lose a minimum of five seats in the Senate in 2006

[JI7]

4. yes, these moderate Republicans must do it

democratic voters who are the majority in their states must demand they do it or threaten them with defeat in next election.

this way the right wing republicans can't say it's the democrats.

[Walt Starr]

17. And the Democrats can rightfully claim they are only participating

in the filibusters out of a profound sense of bipartisanship.

[yardwork]

108. Not only that, we must DEMAND that they push the most extreme measures

The religious right thinks they have a mandate to push their most extreme fantasies into law. Let them do it! Let the moderate Republicans squirm and face up to the monster they created.

I agree with you Walt Starr! Let the extremism out of the closet. Behold the beast in the light of day, and don't let them blame the Democrats for preventing it.

[Bridget Burke]

9. Strategic, long-term Republican thinking.

Just as many of us suspected.

[Walt Starr]

13. You have no clue what you are talking about

We have come to a time when we have the WEAKEST Democratic Party in living memory.

There are at least seven vulnerable Democratic Party Senate seats coming up in 2006.

We are at risk of losing even filibuster power.

We are on the brink of having a Republican Party that has the power to amend the constitution AT WILL!!!!! If the losing trends of the past three election cycles continue, in 2008 we will have the Congress 2/3 in Republican hands and 3/4 of the State legislatures controlled by the Republicans.

Read your constitution to understand the implications of those numbers.

Now you might get a grasp of the TRUE HORROR I am speaking of.

[Bridget Burke]

27. So we should just be quiet & go along with them.

Yeah, right.

[Walt Starr]

28. There are none so blind as those who choose to close their eyes

God and Goddess have mercy upon us all. The Left has ignored history and will allow the most brutal regime to ever exist within human history come to be.

I suggest you read Sun Tzu, there may still be a chance if you would simply educate yourself about the ways in which one must conduct war, because we ARE at WAR!

[Bridget Burke]

31. You'll keep your eyes open, looking at the ceiling.....

Thinking about the far, far future while the Republicans have their way with you.

[Walt Starr]

33. You will give the Republicans their pipe dream

A scapegoat that conducts itself according to plans and gives teh Republican Party the unbbridled pwoer to amend the constitution at will.

Idealism died on November 2nd. If you choose to attack an overwhelming force while in a postiion of weakness you will lose. The history of warfare bears me out on this.

[Bridget Burke]

45. You embrace whatever you wish.

As a liberal, I should support your choice. Even if it disgusts me.

[Walt Starr]

49. Either we hang together or we surely we will hang seperately

I don't like it any better than you, but we are left with no choice.

Please, do me a favor. If a complete Rightwing nutball is nominated to replace Rhenquist and the Democrats announce they do not have the votes to filibuster, understand that replacing one rightwing nutball with another is a zero sum gain.

[Bridget Burke]

76. Nope. No favors.

I've read your other posts in other threads.

[Walt Starr]

77. Then you should know, this is war

and we fight it as a war or we lose for all time.

We are, right this very moment, in the most dangerous period of American History. We fight this thing in the same way we have fought in the past (and lost) and we go the road of obscurity.

[yardwork]

110. Not just be quiet, but insist that they fulfill their campaign promises!

Do any of us think that moderate Republicans really want the things that the religious right claims they now have a mandate to get?

Of course not, but the moderate Republicans have the usual scapegoat - us. They know they can get away with breaking the promises they made to the extreme right and then blame it on us.

Time to stop helping the Republicans use us. Time to hold their feet to the fire.

[lastliberalintexas]

120. Not go along- push them even further

Overtime pay no longer exists. We can work your rear end off all we want.

Union organizing is henceforth illegal and grounds for immediate termination.

Safe drinking water? Safe foods? Pah- that requires the dreaded, evil gummit regulation.

Abortion (and contraception, depending on the type of fundie) should be illegal. No waiting for Roe to be overturned in the courts- they have the votes to do it legislatively.

Chruch attendance is now mandatory. Everytime the church doors are open.

Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, etc. should be required to convert or be imprisoned. (That'll teach those Jews who voted for Israel what the fundies really think of them)

Over the top? Of course! (Even though most of these things are just logical extensions of the End Timers' platform.)

Just my Modest Proposal...

[Walt Starr]

122. And you just know, if they are emboldened they will DEMAND and end

to the minimum wage.

Think of how the basic electorate will appreciate THAT move, because no minimum wage means everybody's wages go down.

[VelmaD]

123. Now you're making a HUGE assumption...

that the average member of the electorate will make that connection. They won't. They never have before when we've tried to use raising the minimum wage as an issue.

[Walt Starr]

124. I'm making a small assumption

the minimum wage will go away, wages will go down, and Joe sixpack connects the dots.

[VelmaD]

126. Well, so far Joe sixpack...

hasn't made the connection between the republicans' tax policies and the continual decline in real wages. What makes you think they'll suddenly get it now?

[Walt Starr]

131. True enough, but elimination of the minimum wage

would have immediate and drastic consequences.

It would be hard for Joe not to notice that he has to take a pay cut in order to keep his job.

Of course, Joe elected both Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush to second terms, so WTF does joe know?

[VelmaD]

133. C'mon, Walt...don't tell me you really believe...

that George won this election fair and square? ;)

But I'm with ya about Reagan. What the hell were people thinking? :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

134. Although I have not made my full opinions about BBV be known

I will wait until all of the data is in and it hits mainstream to pass full judgement.

;)

[VelmaD]

139. Be brave, Walt. Put it out there.

Never seen you NOT express your opinion before. ;)

[Walt Starr]

142. Okay, here it is, buried in one of my provocative threads

Were there issues with evoting this year? Yes

Were these problems intenational? Probably, but I still don't have enough data for a conclusive answer.

Were these problems large enough to alter the outcome? I don't know, again, I lack the hard data to say yes or no here. I would not put it past our current administration to engage in fraud at this level, but I just have not seen proof of it.

Will this alter the outcome of the election in the end? If enough evidence of fraud is presented prior to the Ohio and Florida certifications of the vote, yes, however, this is extremely doubtful. We have a very few prescious days to get this accomplished if we are to have any hope of keeping a second term from happening.

Why the hell have you been so fucking provocative on the BBV threads? I am holding their feet to the fire pushing them in the directions where they can prove their analysis is correct and issues occurred. I have direct experience with how much you need to have ducks in rows before mainstream media will run with an issue. My provocation puts definite roadblocks that the mainstream media will have put in place but won't be telling you to correct. This is in hopes of the folks working on this issue will concentrate their efforts on the corroborative investigations rather than on areas that won't make a damn bit of difference.

[Sugarbleus]

144. I'm too tired to understand this thread completely...but

I did just want to remind folks that the URW are right now trying like dogs in heat to marginalize the senators you mentioned in your post.

Just finished watching a CHILLING meeting of these wing nuts(GOPAC=Newt Gangrene, Dick Army, Grover Norquist, others.) where they were urging their audience to urge others to call their senators and reps to STOP Specter et al from gaining any control of anything.

James Dobson is calling in his markers BIG TIME. I'm freaked.

[JI7]

3. we need to allow them to expose their extremism

[baldguy]

5. This is the Nader strategy come true.

"Let the right win. Let them have what they want. Let them destroy the economy & the Constitution."

So, instead of being 5, 10 or 20 yrs away from solving our current problems satisfactorily - we're 50, 100 or 200 yrs away.

Thanks Ralph.

[Cronus Protagonist]

148. True dat

This was Ralph's wish in 2000, it was his wish in 2004, and that makes me wonder why he's contesting the election results in NH - he got what he's wanted for more than a decade.... why contest?

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next day by first class mail)

[hexola]

6. The old men at my local diner said...(overheard...)

(in Pennsy farmer drawl)"There won't be another democrat in office for a generation..."

[DemCam]

130. That's what they said about Republicans in 1964.

They've been predicting the end of one party or another as long as I remember.

[Comadreja]

162. Madison said

--“The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.” James Madison, Federalist Paper 47

[kayell]

7. I'm just a bit more concerned right now for my (existing) child and

(existing) grandchilds lives, rather than for theoretical offspring that they may never have the chance to produce in the kind of world the BFEE will produce (or more likely - destroy).

[mmonk]

8. Karl Rove's permanent majority

[Solomon]

10. I've had about enough of your posts. Stop gloating. It's wearing very

thin.

[Walt Starr]

14. Who the fuck is gloating?

I see the dire situation we are in.

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

[Q]

11. So...how's it going, Walt?

"But Joe saw for the past two years how this fully Republican government didn't do all of the nasty things the Democrats said they would."

- Nah...Joe didn't see it because Fox didn't report it. But even if he did he didn't care about what he saw.

- You seem to misunderstand as to what Joe is all about. He doesn't care about what HIS TEAM is doing in DC as long as they're trashing the other side and gaining more power. Joe interprets 'individual rights' as being able to own a gun. Joe has had four years...and he likes what he sees. He would prefer one party rule...as long as it's his party ruling.

- Forgive us if we don't want to lay down on the railroad tracks with you and wait for the Bush* Express to roll over us. Freedom isn't a strategy...it's a truth.

[Walt Starr]

19. Nope, you're talking about Righty Ralph, not Joe Sixpack

Need to get you're portions of the electorate correct.

Base percentages, give or take a couple of percentage points, are 1/3 Lefty Louie, 1/3 Righty Ralph, and 1/3 Joe Sixpack.

Joe has thrown in with Ralph for now. Louie just keeps pushing Joe away while Ralph calls Joe over to have a beer.

[GreenArrow]

12. the art of fighting without fighting

While I have absolutely no doubt that the Republicans employed trickery and chicanery in certain strategic areas, the inescapable fact is that in large segments of the population voted for Bush. They voted for him, because he is most like them. May they get what they
deserve. May it come slowly, and may it come painfully. May the pain be exquisite. May there be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. These tools will realize too late what they have lost and what they are.

For the rest of us, the issue is to learn how to live graciously, with quiet cunning and discretion, with patience. Turn off the TV. Make a pot of soup. Bake some bread. Plant a garden. Get to know your neighbors better. Make music. Make love. Read a book. Write a book. Take a walk. Spend time with family and friends. Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Learn a new language. Conserve. Spend less. Enjoy more.

Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad. George Bush, this malignant little turd, is mad as a hatter. He carries the seeds of his own destruction within him. You wanna fight? Learn to practice the art of fighting without fighting. Let Bush and his swine lead themselves over the cliff. They have damned themselves.

[Walt Starr]

16. SunTzu

We had better learn it fast, or we will become a system that the world has never seen.

The Hitler analogies have been false because what the Republicans are on teh brink of creating is something the world has never seen. There can be no predicting what sort of a government will be contrived by a Republican Party with the pwoer to amend the constitution at will.

And that Horror is on the brink of reality.

[GreenArrow]

87. in recent times, Hitler is the nearest thing we have to compare to,

the standard measure of wickedness. In terms of the techniques being used by the GOP/Christo fascists, the comparison is a good one. In terms of the outcome, who knows.

My wife hates the Hitler comparison as well; I simply tell her that in some not too distant future that Bush, not Hitler, will be the standard by which extreme human evil will be judged.

[Arianrhod]

160. I am with you. n/t

[MidwestMomma]

15. I can see what your saying

For example, appointing judges. The moderate Republicans roll over and let the Radical Right nominate uber-conservative anti-abortion judges. Then the moderate Republicans let the Democrats filibuster and save the day for them. And then guess who the bad guy is to Joe Sixpack...the Democrats for trying to block the judges that will save all those little unborns.

But if the Democrats don't filibuster and women lose the right to choice, damn, I don't much like that alternative. Are you saying that women for a generation will have to lose this right in order to save our country? I don't know if we can ask them to pay that price.

It's a hell of a situation we as Democrats are in right now. We are pretty much damned if we do and damned if we do. I don't know the answer. I know it is tempting to quit coming to the rescue of this country. The Democrats are like the cavalry sometimes. Always charging in to save the the environment, women's rights, worker rights, etc... Heck that's why I'm a Democrat, I like fighting and supporting what is good for this country. I just don't know anymore.

Thanks for listening...

[Walt Starr]

18. The beauty is, we still have a chance to save Roe while building our power

And that's the fact that a Right Wing Activist justice will be the first to be replaced.

The Democrats roll over and state, The Senate Democrats simply do not have the votes to filibuster this nomination.

We exchange one rightwing bastard with another. Net change is null.

Then O'Connor comes up for replacement. Chaffee, Snowe, Jeffords, and Specter are now in panic mode.

[MidwestMomma]

20. And the Radical Right has already started on Specter

He dared to say they shouldn't put up any anti-abortion judges and they are starting a campaign, including a prayer vigil, to get him kicked off as head of the judiciary committee.

Of course, he said not to put them up because the Dems will filibuster. That is the pro-choice Republicans convenient out every time.

Anyway, it is interesting how the Radical Right is ready and willing to destroy even the Republicans in it's way. If only the American public could see that nobody sane is conservative enough for these people.

[Walt Starr]

22. And we have to allow them to destroy the moderate Republicans

We need those seats!

[Q]

23. It seems your advice is better suited...

...for Republicans than Democrats. In essence...you're advising Democrats to sit back and watch everything go to hell and when the flames are up to our butts we can blame it on the other side.

- In other words...you're asking Democrats to roll over, betray their base and the ideal of liberty in the hope that the other side will eventually self-destruct? We can only hope that you never work in a position of any power within the party. Although there might be a spot for you on Rove's team.

[Walt Starr]

25. There are none so blind as those who choose not to open their eyes

By your actions, you are embracing the full HORROR of the Nightmare.

Under your tactical pipe dream of short term gain, we will lose the strategic power we currently have and succumb to a Republican Party that can amend at will.

God have mercy upon us all if you get your way.

[JPJones]

29. Ah, the idealist Democrat.

Enjoy the permanent minority. Rove has no intention of reversing Roe v. Wade, only to blame the Democrats for blocking their judges. They want Roe v. Wade as a permanent issue for all future elections. 'Elect us again, we've almost got Roe v. Wade overturned!'.

The 'moral issues' are their cover for dismantling the federal government. If we threaten to give them their 'moral issues', Rove, Bush and moderate Republicans will shit themselves. The end game remains to be seen.

The fault lines in the Republican party are visible -

James Dobson on This Week: "Senator Spector is a big time problem for us and we are really concerned about him. I campaigned against him, I campaigned on behalf of Toomey in Pennsylvania. I thought that the comment that was made by the Senator was one of the most foolish and ill considered comments that a politician has made in a long time. President Bush came to Pennsylvania 30 plus times to campaign for him and the next day after he wins the mandate, wins this enormous victory he goes on the air and sticks his thumb in his eye. That makes no sense at all. Senator Spector is a problem not only because of the judiciary but because he has been the champion of embryonic stem cell research and many other things. He's remembered most for having sabotaged Robert Bork. He is a problem and must be derailed.

The Republican Senators know they have a problem. Senator Spector has put himself in opposition to the President, he stands in the roadway with the great mandate that has been given to this President and he is in opposition to it. They know that and they also know that millions of people are upset over it. You couldn't get a phone call into Washington because of these comments and that's not going to go away."

[Walt Starr]

32. Idealists fail to learn from history

I cannot say what form the new order will take once the Republicans consolidate their power to the point of being capable of amending at will, but it is always the Left Wing Idealists that gove the Right such unbridled power.

The time for idealism died on November second. We no longer have that luxury.

[Mike L]

81. JP, I agree with you on this point.

"The 'moral issues' are their cover for dismantling the federal government. If we threaten to give them their 'moral issues', Rove, Bush and moderate Republicans will shit themselves. The end game remains to be seen."

Rove wants to keep Roe v Wade out there as a rallying cry for his fundies. His real goal is to appoint justices who are laissez faire capitalists.

The main cultural issues Democrats must take away from Rove are guns and gay marriage. Dem candidates should take 100% pro-guns positions and should say they support gay marriage bans. Without these strategic moves, the Dem party will lose all power.

While I support gay rights and abortion rights, we must start 'outfoxing' Karl Rove. So far, we've been playing checkers and Rove has been playing chess.

[Walt Starr]

86. They're entire power base is set upon 4 million who demand an ideology

of no compromise whatsoever on their issues.

So long as the REpublicans can blame a lack of movement in those areas on the Democrats, they will continue to win because they will always be "just a couple of elections away from overturning Roe".

Make them shit bricks, I say.

[Mike L]

98. agree.

[Star]

100. Walt, your logic is beautiful

A position opens on the SC (after Rehnquist).

what will they do? they have to put up an extreme right-winger for the position to satisfy their base. But, they can't afford to lose Roe, so they depend on a Dem filibuster to prevent their nominee from being appointed. If there's no filibuster and their guy gets in, they will have to put pressure on their guy not to overturn Roe, but he's their guy. So, they either lose Roe as an issue, or they appear unable to choose "competent" SCOTUS appointees.

I love it. It's beautiful. THEY are now in a lose-lose situation. This is why * would never answer the question about overturning Roe. They don't really want to lose an issue that they can keep pounding dems over the head with and firing up his base.

BTW, I am firmly in the camp that wants to give them enough rope to hang themselves with. We don't have to VOTE with them, just not obstruct them in their madness. The Dems can all VOTE against them, but unless the moderate Repubs also vote against them, they will always get their way. this will put extreme pressure on the moderate Repubs. Perfect.

[JPJones]

101. Abstain on controversial votes

Obstructionist vote Nay, Appeasers vote Yea, Triangulators Abstain.

[Star]

104. That's it!

I want to watch the first vote where the majority of Dems abstain. I want to see the repuke faces when that happens.

question: What will the senate dems do? Is there any chance they will actually choose to follow this strategy?

[Walt Starr]

106. I am composing a series of letters to every Democrat in the Senate

the House, and every Democratic Governor.

They'll at least know of this course. Goddess help us if they choose to remain splintered fools.

[Cats Against Frist]

128. LOL

"Triangulators." :)

[grasswire]

159. right

The Bushies NEVER will grant the fundies a constitutional amendment against gay marriage or abortion. Because then they will not have any way of manipulating those votes.

Yo evangelicals. It's never going to happen with Bush.

[Cats Against Frist]

127. I disagree

simply because I don't believe that it's laissez-faire capitalism that they're looking for. I believe they're out for corporatism, or corpo-fascism, which is very, very different. I think they're out to take full control of the federal government and combine the corporations and the state -- hence Bush's unwillingness to tamp down "the welfare state," end corporate subsidy and bailout, stop using the military as a corporate arm, or negate the human status of the corporation in the legal system.

Not only has he increased the drug benefit for seniors (which took AWAY the free-market power of the consumer) but intends to boost federal spending at all kinds of levels. I don't even think that they'll dismantle the welfare state -- just switch it over to churches, basically -- but still fund it federally, somehow. As someone had the discussion on here, earlier, fascist societies can have a welfare state.

Sorry, just a little point of contention.

[Bridget Burke]

48. He's definitely a team player.

But on which team?

[Walt Starr]

54. Damn straight I'm a DEMOCRATIC Team Player

Which is why I approve of the choice of Harry Reid and also approve of Nancy Pelosi's statements regarding the cooperation with the Bush agenda.

[JPJones]

21. Women in America lost the right to choose on Nov. 2, 2004

We failed to defend it, and now it is gone. Everything from here forward is strategy, and Walt is leading the way.

You are right - moderate Republicans like Specter are counting on Dems to filibuster. Sorry, we're not going out like that this time.

[Walt Starr]

24. There is still a chance to save it, small though it may be.

and save the Democratic PArty as well as the nation in the process.

Or we can fight against overwhelming force and bravely go down in flames to an entirely new order that has not even been conceived of yet, which is precisely what will happen under a nation ruled by a Republican Party that has the power to amend the constitution at will.

This is the true horor of the nightmare we are experiencing. Unfortunately, the left is failing to learn from history what happens when we fail to yield at appropriate times in order to rregroup and attack anew on our own terms.

[Radio-Active]

26. Yes, we need to keep reminding people that the coming

disaster is the "Republican Utopia" that we've been promised about.

[Walt Starr]

30. Yes, we do

If we filibuster Rhenquist's replacement, we are doomed as a nation. The sad part is, there is no place to go because you will be unable to hide from the nightmare that will ensue once Republican power is fully consolidated.

And the morons on the left that demand a filibuster of Rhenquist's replacement have no undertstanding of the fact that allowing one right wing idealogue to replace another right wing idealogue is actually a net zero gain for the Republicans and works to strategic value for the Democrats because it sends a message that the Democrats are too weak to filibuster ANY nominee.

Feign weakness, lay the bait, ensnare the enemy when he takes it.

give Bush his right wing idealogue for Rhenqust and he will be emboldened to present another right wing idealogue for O'Connor. Then true battle can be engaged as it will be Bush's own Republican allies in the Senate who push the filibuster.

all the while, the Democrats operate from a position of strength while dividing the Republicans at their core. We are in our weakest position ever, but we can work it to our advantage and become more powerful than two divided factions of the Republican Party.

[VelmaD]

34. Uh...how many more times...

are you gonna post this same idea. We got it the first time. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

35. As many times as it takes

to pound it into people's heads.

Pelosi is NOT "giving in".

Harry Reid will NOT be "ginving in".

Idealism died on November 2nd, we no longer have the luxury. The sooner the left gets a grip on that reality, the sooner we can turn things around.

[VelmaD]

36. I'll say it one more time to you...

which one of your cherished rights are you willing to voluntarily give up as a part of this effort to drive the right off a cliff? Until you answer that question I'm not interested in your theory about how I should sacrifice my rights on the hope that the right will self-destruct.

[Walt Starr]

38. I'll say it one more time for YOU!

Roe died on November 2nd. It's dead. It's gone.

There is a SLIGHT chance to save it, but if we act all self righteous and go your road, WE LOSE EVERY FUCKING RIGHT WE HAVE AND END UP WITH A REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT CAN AMEND THE CONSTITUTION AT WILL!!!

Get off your fucking high horse and examine your priorities because your idealistic bullshit is about to hand ultimate power to the Republican Party FORFUCKINGEVER!!!!!

[VelmaD]

39. Oh gee, what a surprise...

instead of answering the question you choose to condescend and yell at me. Color me stunned. :eyes:

I may be idealistic but you are self-righteous and condescending and frankly hurting your cause more then helping it in the way you respond to people who disagree with you.

You have a theory, Walt. Not a relevation of THE TRUTH from on high.

[Walt Starr]

41. do me a favor, name a time in your life when the Democratic PArty has been

weaker than it is right now.

I'll await your answer.

[VelmaD]

42. Nice tactics

Ask a question instead of answering the one put to you.

BTW, I remember this exact same hand wringing after Reagan won his second term in a landslide.

[Walt Starr]

46. We had the House then, apples to oranges

We hold no power whatsoever at the Federal level. Not one whit. The closest thing to power we have at this point is the filibuster and there are threats to take that away via some obscure rules regarding the power of the VP.

And we LOSE the power of the filibuster COMPLETELY if we lose five seats in the Senate come 2006. We MUST regard seven Democratic Senate seats as vulnerable in that election.

So ask yourself again, is it really worthwhile to filibuster the Rhenquist replacement at all? IF the Democratic Party simply accepots the most rightwing nutball possible as a replacement for the currently most rightwing nutball, where do we really lose in that move?

The gains are tremendous.

1) O'Connor gets the message that the Democrats are not in a position to oppose any rightwing idealogue replacing her, so she might wait it out because at her core, she supports Roe.

2) The center-right moderate Republicans in the Senate get the message, "You want to keep Roe alive, YOU have to do something about it and come to US hat in hand in order to save your seats."

3) The Republicans become the obstructionists, the Democrats become bipartisans PLUS they can save the seats that are up for grabs in more RedS tate areas, like Byrd's seat in West Virginia since in all liklihood he will retire this cycle. We do this by having those vulnerable Democrats vote for cloture on the nomination while the Republican lead filibuster continues.

4) Maybe, just maybe, we'll be able to save the day on Roe depending on how long the Left leaning justices can hold out (i.e. not die and not retire) and how well we can hold a coalition with the moderate Republicans together.

Are you beginning to get the picture on the dire straights this Party is actually in? Can you even comprehend the position of weakness we hold? Are you that tuned in only to your idealistic positions that you cannot see how easily we can lose it all over the Rhenquist replacement?

My Goddess I HOPE you can!

[VelmaD]

52. My basic problem with your argument...

is that it relies on moderate republicans to save the day. I'm not sure I believe they have the power within their party or within themselves to do so. The right-wing maniacs have been slowly reducing the number of moderate repubs in congress over the years...picking them off one by one in their primaries and replacing them with far-right whackjobs. What you're asking the moderates to do is political suicide for them.

[Walt Starr]

57. Our only way to achieve our aims now is with a coalition

We are too weak otherwise.

this is the FACT of our position since November 2nd.

It sucks, I know, but that's what happens when partisan politics shifts the balance too far in one direction. We are on teh brink and some pretty ugly things are going to have to happen, or else we will plummet over the cliff!

[VelmaD]

60. You did not address my point at all

What incentive is there for the moderate republicans to form a coalition with us if they KNOW it means they will face a well-funded far-right candidate in their next primary? Especially since they've seen fellow moderates go down to the far-right in the past.

[Walt Starr]

63. They are currently in a lose-lose situation

If they allow Roe to fall, they lose. If they keep Roe alive, they ahve a chance to pull it out.

Either way, they only have the Democrats as a viable coalition option. If they do not form a coalition with the Democrats, soem will lose to the Democrats while the others will lose to Republcian challengers in their own primaries.

It's a dangerous game, I will not shit you about that, but the choices are striking. Risk Roe now and win come 2006, or save Roe in the short term and lose it after 2006 when we end up with only 39 seats in the Senate, thus losing the power of the filibuster.

And there is the option of pulling back from the brink of losing Roe on the O'Connor replacement at the last minute by filibustering then without the Republicans. I'd prefer not to be forced into that position because it would be best saved for a potential loss of Souder or Ginsberg over the next four years. we would also be in a better position in 2006 and could, quite possibly, take back enough seats in the Senate to filibuster replacements AND have vulnerable Democrats still vote for cloture.

There is no realistic possibility of retaking the Senate until 2008 at best.

If we're extremely lucky, the Republicans will attempt to push through a more moderate judge with the Rhenquist appointment who is a "surprise" Justice that ends up supporting Roe. It has happened before, but Rove and Bush have been conditioned to attack when they perceive the enemy is weak. That is both their greatest strenght and their most blatant weakness. My guess is they will put a Ted Olsen or somebody similar up as a replacement.

[VelmaD]

69. At least you finally admit...

that what you're proposing is dangerous and might not work. Which brings us back around to my initial concern...you are not the one being told to risk something important. Not asked...told. And then condescended to when you say "hang on I have some issues and questions". Use a litlte of that legendary liberal empathy and try for just one second to put yourself in my shoes.

I don't think your plan will work. I don't think the moderate repubs will do the right thing...I don't have much evidence from their behavior in the past that they'll stand up and be counted in the face of their electoral reality. They know they're in a weak position within their own party and I don't think they have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. Give me some proof, Walt. Some hard evidence that you can hang your theory on.

[Walt Starr]

74. I lose big time in the Christian Reconstructionist vision of America

I am no Christian and risk my religious freedom in thisdangerous game.

If we lose under my plan, at least we had a chance and we could still have a chance to get it back.

If we filibuster Rhenquist's replacement, we lose for all time.

which road is the best? Both suck, but one offers at least a hope.

[VelmaD]

80. Thanks for finally answering a several day old question, but

you didn't address the main point of my last post. All you did is re-state your opinion. You believe that this is our only hope. I get that. What I asked you for is any evidence that the moderate republicans will act in the way you want them to.

[Walt Starr]

82. The fact that they did get on board in some fights last term

See, they get to sit back all nice and cozy, joining in when they perceive it is to their political value.

That's what saves their nice Republican seats in such blue states.

They will be threatened by the radical agenda of the real Republican Party. Oh, they're already targeted for termination, don't doubt that. If we achieve enough of an equilibrium, we can help the radical rightwing target tehir seats with nutballs and then take them out from under the GOP easily in the end.

Again, it's a dangerous game we play, regardless of what actions we take. I prefer to be cold and calculating about it rather than reactionary. Utilizing a cohesive strategy works better than going with your heart on matters of war.

[VelmaD]

84. I'm going to break away from discussion of tactics for a second...

to address your attitude about all this. I don't know if you understand yet how condescending you sound sometimes. The language you use to refer to people who do not agree with you speaks volumes. You speak as if you and only you are the possessor of the truth and that anyone who disagrees with you is being illogical or lacks understanding.

What makes you think that my reaction is emotional whereas yours is not? I think I laid out a pretty stright-forward reason that I think your plan won't work - republican electoral reality. You seem to disagree with me and that's fine. But I'm not yet accusing you of not thinking clearly though I feel I'm just as entitled to accuse some people on this board of being reactionary and responding out of emotion on this issue. This sudden call to toss women's rights and gay rights overboard could be viewed in very ugly emotional terms.

Anyway, my point is that you might want to take a step back and look at the way you frame your argument.

[Walt Starr]

88. Shhhhh, I'm doing that on purpose

Controversy keeps threads alive on DU. Thoughtful posts that don't piss anybody off die within minutes.

;)

[VelmaD]

89. So much for your tactical genius

revealing your secret plan in public. ;)

[Walt Starr]

91. It had to come out eventually

Provocation instigates discussion.

;)

[VelmaD]

93. I'm not sure I agree with that...

too often provocation instigates flamewars and rational discussion gets thrown out the window. (i.e. DUs notorious "bitch" wars)

But you're right that your thread isn't sinking. Wouldn't it be nice if reasonable conversation had the same staying power. Now that you and I aren't screaming at each other this thread will sink like a stone. *sigh*

[Walt Starr]

95. If reasonable discussion prompted lengthy threads

I would never have to be provocative when introducing such radical thinking.

It is sad, but it falls into basic human nature. Most of DU is comprised of extremely thoughtful and good individuals who stand up for their principles no matter what. Perceived threats to those principles are vehemently attacked. This is also the casewith the rightwing (although I would hardly call the rightwing "good"). Feigning retreat and laying bait is a good way to draw the enemy into an attack they cannot win. It's worked for at least two and a half milleni since Sun Tzu first put it down on paper.

Thank you for the discussion, Velma. While I doubt if we agree fully, I'm certain we both feel better about each other's positions regarding this. Believe me, when I see the leadership making what I would consider a tactical or strategic error, I'll be the first to say so. I am also certtain there will be plenty of error in this. Let's hope that the Republicans make more mistakes in all of this than we do.

;)

[VelmaD]

96. Just remember that not all fear is irrational

I admit that part of my problem with your theory stems from fear. But fear isn't always a bad thing and it doesn't always spring from an irrational place. I feel like my fear is pretty well grounded in reality. I'm afraid that whatever we give up we'll never get back. I'm afraid of the right-wing maniacs...but I'm also afraid that a lot of people who are on "our" side don't really have my back. I'm afraid that a lot of the Democratic leadership doesn't have the dedication to equal rights that the rank and file have and that they'll sell me out to no good effect. I guess I just don't believe that if I sacrifice my rights now that I can trust everyone in my party to do what is necessary to get them back later.

[Walt Starr]

103. This is why I got provocative from the beginning

The visceral reaction when they start the attack with a rightwing idealogue to replace Rhenquist will be to attack! I admit, it's a hard thing to overcome, you don't want any more rightwing nuballs on the court, but we have to step back every time we want to attack from a visceral level and examine the lay of the land.

We must ask at every step of the way, "would my attack right now actually hurt me in the long term?"

I hate to say it, but every last activist out there has to become a general in their own rights. We are not namby pamby people expressing views any longer. All of us, each and every DUer, is a warrior in a battle that could not come with higher stakes. We are now to a point of winner take all and we are severely behind and outnumbered.

The circumstances are dire, but not hopeless.

Nobody should ever be an activist in modern politics if they have not read and fully understand the implications of Sun Tzu's, The Art of War. In fact, when asked how somebody should become active, my first recommendation will be to read that book and decide if they have the nerve and intestinal fortitude required of them to be an activist.

[VelmaD]

107. A few things

First off I have read "The Art of War". Scarily enough it was assigned to me by Karl Rove - he taught my Campaign Politics class in grad school.

Second, I'm still waiting for someone to address the basic point I've been trying to make for the last few days in the threads on this topic. Why is it that women's rights and equal rights for gays are the issues immediately on the chopping block? I don't see anyone running around assuming that many of the other important rights we hold dear are already gone. People keep saying "choice is already gone" like they've completely given up before the Right does anything. I'm upset that it seemed so easy for people to do that. I'm upset because it makes me think my rights were never all that important to them in the first place. And that makes me dubious that they'll fight in the future to get back any of the rights we give up now. I am thinking about the long term.

[Walt Starr]

111. The reason is simple, everything is now being driven by the rightwing

religious nutballs. I'm sorry, but that's the fact. They want womnen barefoot and pregnant and they want a "final solution" to the "homosexual question."

Let me tell you how terrifying it will be. When Rhenquist announces he must leave the court in the next few days, the rightwing ideological nutball most likely to be appointed to replace him is John Ashcroft.

We must allow Ashcroft to be appointed. It must go through, sick as it sounds.

The one bright spot is if we can get the public to realize the position of the Democrats is too weak to oppose this sort of nomination, the public might wake up prior to an O'connor replacement. If not, at least the moderate Republicans could, and if all else fails, we have one final filibuster opportunity.

Serious games for serious times.

[VelmaD]

113. As strange as this sounds coming from me...

I think you have more faith in people than I do, Walt. I'm usually much more pollyanna about human nature but I genuinely do not believe the "moderate" repubs will buck up and save the Union. If they were gonna, they would have done it by now.

Maybe I'll be back to my usual, more optimistic self in a few days. But right now I'm just not buying what you're selling.

Plus there's something you haven't considered. Karl Rove is smart enough to see this plan coming a mile away so don't think for a minute that he isn't already figuring out how to counter it.

[Walt Starr]

117. I seriously doubt if the Democratic leadership has even considered this

They've not demonstrated a strategic bone in their bodies to this point, I seriously doubt if they've honestly grown any since last Tuesday.

:(

[VelmaD]

118. Well, there's something we agree on

though our reasons may not be the same. *grumble...stupid party leadership...mutter*

[Malva Zebrina]

150. and I do not believe that Snowe or Collins will cross over

Snowe voted for the partial birth abortion bill, even though she is supposedly pro-choice and she is pro-choice when it was expedient to be so. Same for Collins. Snowe was gung ho fo9r the Medicaire bill also. Niether will cross over believe me. Believe me. They have never given any indication that they would be so inclined at all.

Further, if up for election they will need the bucks from the Republicans.Snowe campaigned for Bush in Maine appearing with Laura Bush at the "Bush stands for Women" rally. Come on--niether of these two are going to risk a damn thing or else they may fall off the fence.

Why do people keep investing their hopes in these women that they will deviate from the party in power? Snowe's husband made a large contribution to Bush to win. She may appear to be level headed and sweet, and that is because she avoids any controverial involvement for her own political neck.

[Cats Against Frist]

37. I agree with you Walt

and it doesn't just work in terms of Supreme Court justices. It works in favor of taxes, as well. The LAST thing that a Republican-controlled federal government wants is to get rid of the federal income tax, though they've campaigned on it.

I disagree, however, with the idea that morals are a cover for dismantling the federal government. On the contrary, I think that the GOP will seek to increase federal government power, in a lot of ways.

The Christians aren't the only ones who've been fooled -- the male libertarian and the militia vote has been fooled as well. It is only in the "Orwell" world that the GOP is for less government -- they've co-opted the words "freedom," "free market," "liberty," etc., to place on their program -- which has nothing to do with any of it.

The dems here rag on the free market -- and I don't think it's necessarily the best way, in reality, though in theory I support it -- but what they're not realizing is that the free market will be PREFERABLE to the corpo-fascism that we're looking at, here. Many people MISTAKE the idea of "the free market" for corpo-fascism -- and they're wrong. Absolutely wrong. The GOP wants about as much to do with the free market as a cat wants to hang out with a dog. In "free market" capitalism, the government is cut loose from the corporations, where as in corpo-fascism, the corporations become the government. Big, big, big difference.

As to Roe -- I don't think they'll overturn it, and I think the morals are not a cover for dismantling the federal government, but consolidating power under a right-wing authoritarian government. So, in essence the trick is not to move toward what they ARE, but what they CLAIM TO BE.

In the mean time, the smart thing to do would be to get dems involved in local politics, and get control of as many statehouses as possible.

One thing that we DO agree on, Walt, one hundred percent, is that they WILL NOT STOP with the hate and brainwashing until they get the majorities needed to amend the Constitution. It is only creative thinking that will have to un-do this, and though I've seen a lot of ideas, this is the best.

What's wrong with the others?

1. Same ol, same ol -- arguing about moving left or right in terms of Evan Bayh or Hillary Clinton -- while we're doing this, Rush, Hannity and Annie Mannie will be brainwashing a whole 'nother wave of people. And the religious right is intentionally cranking out children to overpopulate us.

2. Building up a media empire -- you're looking at ten years, at best, while they continue doing what they do, brainwashing and birthing -- again. In the mean time, they could repeal the first amendment, which would make all of this futile.

3. Boycotts -- I am FIRMLY behind this one, regardless of whatever else is tried, but I don't think that this alone can do it. People are too used to being comfortable.

I think that making them obstructionists to their own rhetoric is the way to go. Period.

Of course, if you don't agree with the premise -- that they're ruthless and the game is the same as it was, and they intend to govern from a "reality-based" position -- you probably don't like this idea. I would say the burden of the naysayers is to prove to us that the GOP, after stealing one election, possibly stealing two more, changing our foreign policy, ending open government, raiding the treasury, making our policies in favor of corporations, propagandizing the weak and feeble-minded, aligning with corrupt church leaders, making fun of us, talking about killing us, alienating the world, and claiming that the rest of us are stuck in the "reality-based community" that they HAVE ANY INTENTION of letting up.

[Walt Starr]

40. YOU GET IT!!!!

They cannot afford for Roe to die, that's why the Democrats must give the impression that for all intents and purposes ROE IS DEAD!

Force them to live up to the promises of their most extreme rhetoric and you split them right down the middle, then you have a Congress that looks like this more or less give or take a few percentage points:

49% Democrats (controlling minority)
28% Hard Core Rightwing Republicans
23% Right to center Right Republicans.

Then WE are in the driver's seat addressing the agenda. If the more moderate elements act up, WE move right on over and allow the most radically rightwing forces to act upon their rhetoric because we've already laid out an acceptance that we are too weak to obstruct it.

Checkmate.

[lapislzi]

43. I get it, I get it

It's crazy like a fox and playing possum all at once.

But you must know how hard it is to keep still when feigning one's own death. It won't be seamless, and I wonder how many will be on board with it.

The test will be Rehnquist's resignation. Can we bite our tongues and sweat through it or have we learned nothing? The urge to fight is strong, as you can see.

But it's not a question of fighting harder, just fighting smarter.

Deep breath. Long view. Looooong view. Really long view.

I hope our children will forgive us.

[Walt Starr]

51. Exactly, but if this board is any indication,

the idealists will DEMAND that the Democrats fight the replacement of one rightwing nutball with another and thus weaken our already weak position.

[lapislzi]

68. Most of us aren't politicians

Political thinking is a learned skill. I would hope that enough of them have figured it out on the Hill.

[toddaa]

71. The Art of War

Feign retreat while preparing to attack them where they are weakest. In warfare, armies on the attack expend greater resources than those on defense. Once they leave the cushy confines of their base, their logistical operation increases dramatically. Let them outrun their supply lines. It's easier and cheaper to cut them off the farther away from home they get.

You're already seeing hints of it with the Specter target. If they push too hard on the abortion issue, Spector could lose a primary nomination to a hardcore religious right candidate. They increase the risk of turning the seat over to a Democrat. Pennsylvania has already shown a propensity to vote Democratic. It's not their home state. Let them take down Specter on their own. It makes it easier for us in 2006.

This is a long term war and as we've seen in Iraq, our opponent doesn't really know how to plan for a long term engagement.

[Walt Starr]

79. Specter is not at risk for another 6 years

He just won re-election.

Specter is about to become their new scapegoat in order to keep the abortion issue in their hip pocket.

[gardenista]

157. I think they know this, and that is why they're demonizing him at the

moment.

[RobinA]

44. I Adopted This View

finally in about mid-summer, and I must admit, I'm calmer for it. You can't get people to change their minds by yelling at them, preaching at them, reasoning with them or threatening them. After Abu Ghraib I realized that people just weren't getting it. It's gonna take a 2x4 to the head to wake people up.

And I agree with Green. Turn off the TV, do something productive, learn something new, take a class, get a degree, create something, support the causes you believe in, do what you can, and watch this crowd drive off the cliff.

[Beacho]

47. I'm going to risk being flamed and agree with Walt

Wether on not the election was stolen, let us assume that it was not, we must consider the people that didn't think it was important enough to vote as well as those that voted for the GOP.

Let them know what they voted for, and pay the price. Let's take suburban women for example. IMO, they are under the delusion that the evangelicals will be thrown a bone and they'll shut up, while she gets her tax cuts/subsidy for private school(vouchers), etc. Then when it's time for her ox to be gored, she'll realise just who the fuck she made a bargain with, and wake the hell up.

The same goes for Union pro gun * voters. "Can't eat yer guns" is pretty rhetoric Let it become a reality. When Union guy can't afford the ammo, gas, time off to go hunting, the it will sink in and force him to think about what is in his best interest.


As Walt has pointed out, the moderates repukes need to be denied the convenient cover of 'obstructionist democrats', or the GOP fundraisers will still have the use of it in their begging letters.


As far as the SC, and other federal courts, let's remember that a justice CAN be impeached. While this would take tremendous political capital, it is not impossible. Scalias refusal to recuse himself from Halliburton crony Cheneys case would be more than adaquate for impeaching his ass.

Let Joe Six Pack find out what he's voting for, and relearn the lesson that he had to learn during the Guilded Age. No amount of shouting, pontificating, warning, or prosyletising will be effective as the sting of the RW whip on his back.

Let us gather OUR political capital, restock our armory if you will, before we engage on the political battlefield. It will require sacrifice, but nothing we can't get back, WITH the help of the people that will suffer under the rule of the fanatical and greedy.

[Walt Starr]

53. He who has chosen not to vote has validated whatever course is chosen

That's a simple fact of electoral politics. Those who choose not to vote have acquiesed to whatever position is held by the majority of those who do choose to vote.

[Beacho]

59. agreed, Walt

That's why I mentioned it. While people have been crowing about turnout, there's still a sizable portion that didn't bother.

[Cats Against Frist]

61. Very eloquent and succinct

I adopted this position in April, when I finally grasped what was coming. I hoped that K/E would pull it out, and we wouldn't have to go into "DEFCON 5" mode, but it didn't happen.

Republicans have campaigned SO HARD on liberty, the free market, freedom -- and anyone with a brain can see that that's NOT what they want, at all, but they've hard-wired it into the brains of some of their most vehement supporters.

They never wanted states' rights, or local control -- if they wanted pluralism, or a diverse country, they wouldn't be using Nazi-gauge cultural and religious supremacism to whip up the masses. They wanted the whole "kit & caboodle," and now they've got their eye on it.

The first thing that we have to pull from them is their using us as leverage -- you're EXACTLY right. And I, too, have think that they made the deal with the devil, and didn't realize how much power their extremists could grab within the party. Regardless of what we do, there's already a HUGE split in their party -- a war that has been fought out, visibly and publicly, in the primaires -- the moderates v. the conservatives.

Most of the right IS NOT hard-right ideologues, but Middle Americans, who, by their own definition cannot be ideologues -- they're just the drones. The bulk of them aren't even freeptards -- they're just fucking clueless and bought into the rhetoric.

We take the rhetoric, make it ours, remove ourselves as objects of ridicule and disdain by their right-wing Oxycontin echo-chamber -- and let the moderates and the libertarians decide, once and for all, who it is that they want to side with -- centrists -- which is basically what the Democratic party IS, or fucking nutjobs.

Some people won't like it. I think it's crafty-like and brilliant.

And another reason they won't get rid of Roe is because what would control the black population?? Seriously -- you have to start thinking cruel to get inside their heads.

[Mike L]

85. Agree, except for this.

"The same goes for Union pro gun * voters. "Can't eat yer guns" is pretty rhetoric Let it become a reality. When Union guy can't afford the ammo, gas, time off to go hunting, the it will sink in and force him to think about what is in his best interest."

Pro-gunners will NEVER get too poor to drop that issue. Our candidates must be pro-gun, like Howard Dean was. Dems aren't going to get any gun control laws passed anyway. The cosmetic assault weapons ban Clinton passed was worthless.

[Beacho]

92. Actually I'm a gun rights democrat

I don't own one, but I believe it is a 'liberal' position(in the classic sense.

My point was that, even though no serious democratic politician advocates rescinding the 2nd amendment, the chimera was/is used to great effect by GOPers to get people to vote against their interest.

And there are plenty of gun owners that are living pay check to pay check

[Mike L]

97. correct.

I own several guns myself, including handguns.

[lapislzi]

50. The French Resistance

The French didn't stand a chance against the Nazi war machine. So they went quietly and organized underground.

Hell, why do you think we call ourselves "Democratic Underground?"

Let's start some underground thinking. Hoisting them by their own petard is one such strategy. I'm not saying it's the only one, but it's got possibilities. Counterintuitive, sure. Will result in short term losses, but we can't focus on the quick nickel and lose the buck along the way.

Am I getting it, Walt? Am I?

[VelmaD]

55. Oh you're getting his point, but...

be very careful of this line of thinking. It's being put forward by people who don't have the most to lose if it doesn't work. I've asked the question repeatedly "so what are you personally willing to sacrifice while you're asking me to sacrifice choice" and so far the answer has been a resounding silence.

[GreenArrow]

64. you can lose on their terms

or you can lose on your own. It's a lose-lose situation either way.

[lapislzi]

66. I think we either choose to now or have it forced on us

It will become clearer soon exactly what sacrifices will be required of us.

Yes, if I'm going to give something up in the short term, I'd like to be able to choose what it is. War always involves sacrifice. It is a fallacy perpetrated by this very administration that one can wage war without sacrifice.

We can and should be cagey in the meantime. It's smart after one's suffered a major setback to quietly regroup and act only in small increments.

If my daughter has to sacrifice choice, of course I won't be happy about it. But if I know in advance, I can take steps to make the sacrifice less burdensome. Also note that choice itself won't be sacrificed. Abortions will always be available to the rich and the desperate. Safe, legal abortion is the issue.

But I agree with Walt about Roe v Wade...the Republicans will never give it up because it makes them too much political hay. Where would they be if they couldn't call us baby killers?

[Walt Starr]

67. I'm sacrificing my religious freedom

I choose a religion that is not mainstream, nor is it Christian.

I am a Pagan.

Does that finally answer your question? I lose my prescious freedom of religion in this dangerous game we're playing. And I recognize, I will lose that freedom regardless of the way we choose to fight them should we lose it all.

[Ima]

146. I AM A PAGAN?????

You would never guess by this post! Is it 1984 yet?


Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-08-04 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #23

25. There are none so blind as those who choose not to open their eyes

Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 06:36 AM by Walt Starr
By your actions, you are embracing the full HORROR of the Nightmare.

Under your tactical pipe dream of short term gain, we will lose the strategic power we currently have and succumb to a Republican Party that can amend at will.

God have mercy upon us all if you get your way.

[Walt Starr]

153. God is every bit as important as Goddess

I use both nearly interchangeably in common discourse.

[KitSileya]

78. I think that it's been argued here that we cannot give up choice

simply because we cannot give up something we do not have, and Nov 2 took choice away from us.

[Beacho]

56. "Doing something else"

I believe that we need to focus our strategy on taking the vote back, while we concetrate less on elctoral politics on the fed level.

Start pouring resources on the county level. Put anti-black box voting initiatives, as well as county elcetion officials, on the ballot in states across the nation. Make Sec of State positions more of a priority than senate and house races.

Taking back our elections should be job number one

[VelmaD]

58. You are absolutely correct

What you describe, starting at the lowest local level and working your way up, is EXACTLY how the far-right nutjobs took over the republican party.

[Beacho]

62. It's going to take a lot of discipline

It's hard to take your resources away from the 'sexier' aspects of electoral politics.

I firmly believe we need to get over this and deal with the 'boring' work.

In my mind, Secretary of State is more important than any senator or governor race from here on out.

Hell even the county election officials are more important, IMO

[Walt Starr]

65. Don't forget the State Legislatures

That's where the Republicans have been quietly winning huge victories for decades now.

They are nearly to the point of having a rubber stamp ready for any constitutional amendment presented by the Congress.

[toddaa]

72. 2004 was pretty good on the state level

We didn't concede any governorships and a couple of red state legislatures turned a shade bluer.

[Walt Starr]

75. Yep, but my fear is the direction of Nationalizing the partisanship

It works to their advantage. And "Democratic Obstructionism" as a theme for the 2006 midterms could have disastrous consequences for the state and local elections.

[lapislzi]

70. So true--all politics is local

If I didn't know it before I know it now, after campaigning for local candidates.

These are the people that affect day-to-day life in your town, and in more ways than you might think.

[xequals]

73. Only on a few key issues

where the Dems have concluded ahead of time it is the politically wise thing to do. It is a good idea though. Trying to hold the Repubs off won't work anyway. Let them run right off the cliff on a few key issues. I'm happy in a way that they have right wing nuts like Coburn now. And soon the fundies will be knocking for their paycheck. This will get interesting. Then all of the ABB voters will be there to say to the stupid American public: "We told you so." Hate to sound childish, but I really fel that way. They asked for Bush, let him give it to them. Good and hard.

[Beacho]

83. A note on Roe

Even if it is turned over, it means it goes back to the states.

This will be the hardest sacrifice, on an ideological level. But those that vote for the greedhead-fanatic party might need to learn that lesson. The "blue states" will tend to keep reproductive rights for their citizens, and be a symbol to highlight the power of the state over individual rights in our favor.

The fanatics are also in a position of being victims of their own success. While they had the advantage of having a tiny minority, gays and lesbians, to beat the crap out of with impunity, the rest of their agenda requires attacking the rights of major groups of the population.

Don't hear the SBC yammering about prohibition, do ya?

[Walt Starr]

90. Yes, I believe the plan for the idealogues is an eventual amendment

Which is why if they overtrun Roe now, their base will consider the battle won and may not show up for the all important elections of the next three cycles.

The true agenda of the extreme rightwing is to hold enough political power within their grasp to amend at will.

[Beacho]

94. agreed, an amendment is the goal

Also, the party bosses at the GOP don't want to lose it as an issue, as you pointed out.

[cassiepriam]

99. Give them enough rope to hang themselves

Yes, sometimes you have to steer into the skid
to get out of it. Maybe we should just sit back
and do nothing. Watch it all like a bad movie.
And just hope to god we are not killed in the process.

[cassiepriam]

102. Sometimes I think we should just give them the whole farm

We all walk away, all the dems in govt.
Say good bye go, back to their home states.
Let the neocons take over for awhile.
No one to blame. No one to fight with.
Except themselves. Once Dems are out of the pic,
they turn on themselves.

[Walt Starr]

105. Complete capitualiton is complete defeat

We do not surrender. We retreat, feign a greater weakness than we actually have, divide their forces, then attack them seperately.

We attack their right flank with their center acting as our agent. When election time rolls around, we attack tehir center with their right as our agent.

We take our greatest weakness, the lack of numbers, and turn it into our greatest strength, the feigned weakness.

We take their greatest strength, their overwhelming numbers, and turn it into their greatest weakness, divide the forces.

[Cats Against Frist]

121. I love this, Walt

to do something like this would be faarrrr more bold and interesting than running Hillary and have to listen to the right-wing echo chamber go full throttle, brainwash a bunch more totalitarians, and then lose the presidency and even more seats.

It's like getting punched, falling down, getting back up, getting punched, falling down, getting back up, getting punched, falling down...ad nauseaum -- nothing changes unless you bite their ankles or tie their shoestrings together while you're down there.

To take this to a very weird level -- maybe one that mister Sun would be proud of -- these people who are the ideologues of the GOP -- we've seen them, before -- authoritarianism and totalitarianism can evolve on the right, or the left. Before the Enlightenment, noble birth -- or a ruling class -- and the corrupt church held the reigns, yeah? The bitter irony of all of this is that those who claim to be the most patriotic, are, in fact, those most likely, philosophically to identify with the Tories in right-wing authoritarian and totalitarian attitudes.

And then, "the third estate" is always with us, no? So there's something in human nature that pits these forces against each other -- I believe it is also, philosophically the same forces that have been identified in the major religions and philosophies -- deferrence of the self to a creed or god -- pitted against social darwinism, or survival mechanisms -- there probably, to some extent is a "good" versus "evil," as much as I don't like to think in those terms -- the problem is is that language and thought have the ability to manipulate, and define, in people's minds, which is the good and which is the evil.

At any rate -- going "grasshopper on the mountain top" is not a bad way to deal with this, I think the forces are there, despite what we label them, and, as in this post to which I'm responding, that there are certain "truths" or time-tested strategies that work with the ebb and flow of human nature to unseat your "enemy."

Think -- it is this nature that allowed the GOP to get where they are -- playing on the dichotomy of the totalitarian brain, which is ultra susceptible to the false binaries and false dilemmas of propaganda -- and if you think that Karl Rove doesn't know this -- you're kidding yourself.

Anyway -- thanks Walt, for being conscious of the philosophies and meta-narratives behind our daily events.

[Bridget Burke]

109. You just got here & you're already giving up.

How sad.

[cassiepriam]

116. You have missed my point completely

It is just one strategy to consider.
Not coming from defeat, but a clear
strategic position. Called "giving them enough
rope to hang themselves." It is something to think
about. I wonder what would happen if we did that?
Of course the risk is that we will all be dead.
So it is a gamble I admit.

[Walt Starr]

112. I will now terrify you further, the next appointment to the SCOTUS will be

John Ashcroft, and we MUST allow him to become the next Justice on the SCOTUS.

I told you I would terrify you further.

[VelmaD]

114. I was going to say something...

about how we couldn't let that happen because it would forever besmirch the name of the Court. But hell, they did that with the Bush v. Gore decision.

[Junkdrawer]

115. Walt, the quality of your thought here is every bit as good as the...

the quality of your objections to BBV.

And, to remove all ambiguity, that would be awful.

[Walt Starr]

119. It's seriously sad and I'm TERRIFIED of a Faith Based SCOTUS

As far as BBV goes, I'm being provocative there to try and get them to put their ducks in a row.

I learned the hard way about getting ducks in a row to give something traction. They are definitley on the right track to do something about it, but I'm trying to react to what they're presenting like Joe Sixpack. They COULD be absolutely correct. They have some "i's" to dot and "t's" to cross before it will gain serious traction in the mainstream. It's just started, but they need to get ahold of that raw data to show the world they are not playing games with flawed analysis from CNN.

[Fiendish Thingy]

125. As Spock would say, "fascinating"...but what about BBV?

If the GOP controls the counting/creation of votes, what does any other strategy matter?
Walt, do you agree with state-by-state legislation to ban BBV/require papertrails?
Even liberal communities like my own are not safe from Vote Fraud if the media continues the meme of the growing majority of "moral values" voters- then the vote can be rigged anywhere, locally, statewide, nationally.
If our sacred right to free, fair and accurate elections is protected, then the strategy discussed in this thread might work.

This has been very educational- I'll be ordering a copy of "Art of War" today!

[Q]

129. Do you really think we have to 'push' them to the right...

...when that's where they already plan to go?

- The first four Bush* years WERE as bad as we predicted. But golly...why don't the GOPers understand? Could it be that the media isn't informing them? The bought-off media and the GOP strategists understand one thing: an uninformed citizen votes with his emotions.

- The problem with your strategy is that you've left the media out of the equation. For your plan to work...their has to be a free press willing to engage in investigative journalism and inform the GOPers just how bad things have become. It's the media and talking head pundits that will 'moderate the stance' of the Republicans.

[Walt Starr]

132. Yes, I do believe we have to PUSH them there

They need their bugaboos for two more election cycles in order to completely consolidate power, then they will be able to amend at will. If we push them where they ultimately want to be too early, we force the battle on a battlefield of our choosing under our terms.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

135. You are making sense to me again, Walt.

I agree. Let them implode. Let them cannibalize themselves. Let's watch. Let's encourage them in that direction.

If this is what they want, they got it.

[Walt Starr]

136. We cannot take on a united Republican Party and win, this is true

But if we divde them into two factions, we can conquer them easily.

This was what the Republicans did to Democrats starting in 1993 (over "Hillarycare") which lead to the debacle for the Democrats in 1994.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

137. Push the fanatics to get more fanatic

let the fanatacism be obvious to the moderates.

This isn't hoping the moderates do something, it's ACTIVELY working to break them apart, right?

Well I like that idea a hell of a lot more than the "oh my what did we do wrong? We must go talk to fundies and go to their churches" tactic.

[Walt Starr]

140. Yup, divide and conquer

It's the only way we can win so long as we are numerically inferior.

[THUNDER HANDS]

138. This Was Ralph Nader's whole reasoning behind running

the past 2 elections. To get Bush in so the right-wing would get out in the open and show their true colors.

Of course, Nader wanted to either bury the Democratic Party or fundamentally change it in the process.

But hey, Ralph got what he wanted.

[Fiendish Thingy]

141. Divide and conquer- agreed.

But can it be done without election reform- BBV?

[Walt Starr]

143. Well, not to openly answer you in the subject line of my thread

no.

This will only work if election reform is put in place at the state and local level. If voting is not verified, we can never know who really wins an election.

[Beacho]

145. I suggested it earlier

Intead of focusing on national elections, put efforts to get anti BBV measures and candidates on the state and county levels.

Volunteer, and give money, for these efforts instead of Hillary '08, et al.

[Beacho]

147. ooop, one other thing

The tactics of 'letting have their way' only applies to the congress. Other than that, it's game on...

[bain_sidhe]

149. Lose by inches or win by miles

Your thesis puts me in mind of that passage from "They Thought They Were Free" reproduced at http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

While it doesn't exactly speak to the "embrace the horror" argument you're making, I think it does speak to the consequences of letting the Republifascists continue taking baby-steps to where they're so clearly headed, with each step not shocking enough to wake up the sheeple.

Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow....

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

This is only a small portion of the excerpt at the link above.

I encourage all of those rejecting this "embrace the horror" strategy to read the whole thing, and consider whether a few years of hell might be worth making the American people aware of the "full horror" - the true consequences of an unfettered RepubliFascist agenda.

Note, I'm not absolutely sure it's the right strategy either, but I DO think we should look at the consequences of preventing/mitigating the horror AS WELL as looking at the consequences of allowing it (or "embracing" it, as Walt calls it).

[LiberalEconomist]

151. We must also take away their issues and render them almost

meaningless. What I am suggesting here is to use the established Democratic position on almost all of the issues to take the power back. For instance, we could push through state level ballot initiatives in 2006 such as:

1. VOTE NO ON LATE TERM ABORTIONS. Except in the case of rape, incest, or the life of the mother.

2. VOTE NO ON GAY MARRIAGES. But allow civil unions.

3. VOTE NO ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION in its current form. Let a heavier weight be given to socio-economic status in addition to race, ethnicity, gender.


Maybe these things can be reworded in a better way. I am just throwing out some things.

[bain_sidhe]

152. Alternatively, it might be an effective game of "chicken"

**edit by my inner grammar nazi**

I don't doubt many Republicans are aware that actually enacting their professed "agenda" would probably be as destructive to the Republican party as Walt thinks it would be. After all, it would be much eaiser to campaign on "Those Damn Democrat Obstructionists" than to campaign on having "accomplished" such horrific results. Imagine their horror when the Democrats don't follow the script! They'll be faced with the unpleasant alternatives of either stopping the agenda themselves (thereby losing the support of the Christian fundamentalists and the Libertarians), or seeing the Republican party tossed on the ashbin of history by an outraged citizenry. It's possible they'll choose stopping it themselves (i.e., running away and living to fight another day).

Note, I don't really think so, or I wouldn't be tipping our strategy here for RepubliFascist "moles" to see. Or rather, I'm sure Republican moderates (and pragmatists) will try to talk the fascists out of enacting their agenda to prevent the destruction of the Republican party. I just don't think the RepubliFascists will listen to them. And it's the RepubliFascists who are running the party, for now.

[Carl Brennan]

154. Nope. The time to fight is NOW!! Your proposal will simply lead to a

vicious inertia of fear and oblivion IMH0.

You put too much importance on this last election. Just look at all of the work that has been done building websites like DU, AAR, etc.

The election was stolen, now we need to go after em for it.

[goclark]

155. There is merit in your strategy

If I am reading events correctly, this is exactly what Kerry has done.

You can say he has rolled over or you can say he read "The Art Of War."

In my view he said," I don't have the numbers so here is your man for the next 4 yrs. It's ALL on you GWB let your BASE control you for 4 years and let the blood of this war drip off of your hands, not the hands of Democrats."

If the Democrats were to take this position, they would have to all buy into it because if they didn't, our party could splinter as a result.

Let's suppose they ALL agreed to do it.

It would have to be a dramatic show of unity. I am reminded of the way they all dressed in Black and stood together after the Clinton impeachment situation. They were awesome that day!

I can see them all walking to the steps of the Supreme Court to tell the American people," We can filibuster but we don't have the power to stop this President and the Right and Left Wing of the Republican Party from appointing Clarence Thomas as Chief Justice."

Then they silently walk back to Congress with lips sealed for the vote.

Would it be painful to watch? Yes!

Would it be as painful as watching them being bashed from the RIGHT and the Media for having no voice? - NO!

[Baja Margie]

156. Right on, Walt !!

[sr_pacifica]

158. I've adopted this strategy as of Nov.3

Without realizing that it is a strategy. I just thought, as of that day, as you've written, "there is simply not enough Democratic power to stop it over the next two years." The only answer I can see is for the amerikan people to experience the brunt of the neocon agenda.

Thank you for posting your thoughts. I find your idea very valid.

[bobbieinok]

161. kick...think this needs to be brought up again..READ ALL POSTS

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalAndProud]

164. Joe six-pack deserves whatever he gets. But ...

I refuse to lay down in front of a bulldozer with him. I must war against this evil, even in vain.

In this sense, I resemble the fighters who are trying to protect their homes in Fallujah. When faced with overwhelming evil, we all must protest, however futile.

We must strive to save Joe Six-Pack from himself, in spite of himself.

[lawladyprof]

165. I think we should filibuster but also organize a stealth campaign to

Push the nuttier Congress critters way hard to the right (create a wedge within the Republican Party, force the logical endpoints of their positions into the open)--ban on divorce, ban on birth control pills (back to barrier methods), ban in vitro fertilization. Sort of a hoist them on their own petard strategy. The goal is to make them overreach. Better now when they will make the public (virtually all of the public) recoil than when the country has drifted further to the right.

This would have to be a grassroots campaign in states with very right wing senators, for example Oklahoma and Pennsylvania. I posted the first element of this plan on the Oklahoma and Pennsylvania but got very little response. What do you think? Is there anyone who can take this ball and run with it? I can't. If I wrote my senator, who might fall for it, his staffers would quickly discover I was putting out disinformation if they googled my name. PM me if interested.