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In retrospect i think that the issue that killed us wasn't moral values.

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missouri dem Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:17 PM
Original message
In retrospect i think that the issue that killed us wasn't moral values.
Here in rural Missouri I saw about as many Kerry bumper stickers as I

did for *. Not a lot of obvious * support. However at least every

other vehicle has a we support our troops bumper stickers.


I think that a huge amount of people who voted for * felt that they

would be unpatriotic to vote for Kerry in a time of war.


In hindsight we should have pounded the fact that w* and cabal just

are not competent to run a koolade stand much less a war.


I have not seen this question put forth by pollsters in their surveys

but I bet I'm right.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Moral values didn't kill us. NOTHING "killed us."
We won. The election was stolen. We'll fix that, and we'll keep winning.

NGU.

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splat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Killed us? We're not dead n/t
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missouri dem Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. O.K. let me rephrase.
I am talking specifically about Missouri and other red states. I

don't think that we were cheated here but just got our asses handed

to us.

That said I do have hope that we can get a recount in Ohio and Florida

and that we will end up winning.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. We need to reframe the language to win back Mom & Pop...
...in the heartland, and make them comfortable being Dems again.

NGU.


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missouri dem Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I am a big fan of George Lakoff and his ideas about framing the issues but
what I am trying to say (and not doing a very good job of it) is that

we lost here on an emotional level. Kerry lost here when he did not

respond quickly and effectively to the smear boat liars. the

campaign should have counterattacked by slamming bush as being the

total failure and incompetent that he is. In a nut shell w*s

campaign won here by playing the Strong leader/ patriotism card.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. How do your "red state" relatives feel?
I grew up in NE CO, and I'm waiting to hear from my mom, but she's on our side. I guess I'm asking... do you hear that there is any support for Kerry, especially in the small towns?
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missouri dem Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We were more fired up about this election than any before.
We phone banked, and worked like never before. People came out of the

wood work and put up yard signs and wrote letters to the editor and

did anything they could. We had a democratic headquarters on the

square in our town for the first time in 40 years. I had a number of

republicans tell me that they could not in good conscience vote for

the chimp. The intellectual class voted for Kerry now matter what

party. I thought that we would come close in out state mo.

Didn't happen. During the Vietnam War the slogan was My country

right or wrong. I think that it got us again.

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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Recht oder Unrecht Mein Vaterland
Right or wrong my fatherland. I read that when I visited the ruins of a concentration camp, inscribed near the gates.



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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Hi Viva_La_Revolution!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks newyawker99 :)
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I've seen some your other posts and you are essentially correct.
For Missouri I chalk it up to sheer lack of understanding of the issues.

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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. no paper trail on electronic voting machines
that's what killed us and will continue to do so.

Paper receipts and audit trails are an absolute necessity!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Hear! Hear!
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 08:27 PM by ClassWarrior
But I still say it's only a flesh wound.

(By the way, it's important to say "paper ballots," instead of "paper receipts." Someone takes a receipt home with them, where it cannot be recounted. But a ballot stays at the polling place, recount-ready. I don't mean to be annoyingly picky, but it's a key distinction.)

NGU.

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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. agreed. Paper ballots!
they need to have the legal status of actual ballots, you are right.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Refuse to leave voting area without proof of vote.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. only a massive bruising, hardly 'dead'

I keep on wondering why people think there's a single, trivially identifiable, reason why the election turned out as it did. Lessee: we've tried abortion, gay marriage, O'Neill's people, now it's War President.

$%#& it, it wasn't one reason. It wasn't two of them. Everything got chewed through ad nauseum, polled up the wazoo, never a final word on them except utter exhaustion on both sides. People voted on the package. Literally. I'm not making this up. Even if they claim otherwise.

Look, the real package is: Kerry represents The Future in its trends- despite his endless dwelling on the issues of the past in an attempt to compensate. Bush represents The Past- despite his endless and pointless dwelling on plans and aims and wishes to deal with in the future. All the talk about competence is beside the point. By voting Republican people voted for the Establishment that has dominated the country's political developments for the past 15-20 years and wants everything to return to the terms of ~1960.

All the rest of the chatter is inarticulate people grappling for a rationale- and parroting some of the ones out there most plausible to them- because no one supplied them the words for the comprehensive one.

We had a campaign that almost deliberately, almost on a schedule, chewed through every significant issue in American society and politics starting with Pearl Harbor. The 2004 American electorate's median age is ~55 and is 77% white. The 2004 American population's median age is ~38 and is ~64% white. It's very difficult to square the politics of the two groupings- the electorate will run more conservative and be politically defined by the way the society was 30 years ago (most people's basic political stance is set around age 25).

We have a collision between the trends/needs of the society in the present and a clinging to the way things were 'clear'/defined to mainstream people 30 years ago.

Don't forget that in the late '70s there was giving up on the politics that were set in 1965-68, defined by Vietnam and the Civil Rights Act, and serious work to adapt to the problems in international economics (e.g. Japanese cars) began. The bitterness remained but conservatives moved on/shifted positions- Reagan beat up on the Great Society and Civil Rights but not Roe v. Wade, ignored gay and womens' rights in general. Talked 1950's talk. Everything gets a second and third review in American politics, if not a second and third repeat, which coincides with generationality in the electorate.

If you look at the Big Picture of American politics since initial Settlement, it proceeds in roughly 75 year chunks defined by a part of the Constitution. (The 1st Amendment, the body, then successively the 13th and 15th Amendments.) The major fighting on the issue, often violence, tends usually/mostly to take place at the 55-65 year mark in them. The present such period begins ~1940, roughly coincident with Pearl Harbor, and the piece of the Constitution whose interpretation is at stake is the 14th Amendment.

Generally, in the fighting phase the reactionary side is nearly willing to toss out/undermine the whole of the Constitution realized to date in order that the one piece in question is prevented from being realized.

That's how it works. And right now being Christian, being white, and being male (and straight) -accessed by women by being married to one- is "in danger" of losing its government privileged status. It may not be the official, legally stated, kind of privilegedness. A lot of the privilegedness is pseudo-coerced, in that elected officials have to subject themselves to fealty tests. E.g. Kerry had to attend church services and take communion, was ridiculed for tanning or makeup that was a bit dark, and march Teresa around a lot before there was a kind of approval given him by a large centrist chunk of the electorate.

And that's how They voted. A few billion misspent, a few thousand blue collar workers killed in the sands of Arabia, tax cuts for the Old Establishment, earlier and more miserable deaths for old people after 30 years of marginal improvements...They don't really see the calamity to any of it. Gay marriage, abortion rights, a different Establishment in the forming, the Old Establishment being prosecuted for its gross corruptions, equal footing for Hispanics and blacks, women as bosses, scientists as more important than theocrats, treatment of Conservative Christianity as passe...that strikes Them as necessary to resist, and the utilitarian argument to the contrary doesn't cut deeply enough. In the end they need a crutch, and Divine Order will do as well as white privilege as well as 'free market' silliness to justify hanging onto the one there is.




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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. I've heard the "don't change candidates..."
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 10:29 PM by fujiyama
in a time of war thing before. I think it had a bigger effect than we realized. That and the fact that they scared the shit out of people with the "vote for us or die" mantra. It was effective and it worked. At that point it didn't even matter to people what they thought of the war.

The values thing may have played a role but I think it was tough to fight against the weak on terror thing. In retrospect I'm not so confident other candidates could have beat him on this point.
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iamsofnsorry Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thats a good theory
I think many things had to do with it and that is just one.

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. Starting a war on L IES and then LYING about it does it for me.
Same as saying "pity me, I'm an orphan" - but don't mention that you killed your parents!

A war that we didn't want and didn't start, maybe I couold begin to think in that direction if he wasn't so completely incompetant.

But HE started the war. HE alone pushed for the war. HE alone is the criminal.

I will never support this war.

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW! New BSticker!
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Haviland_42 Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Impeaching Bush won't bring them home
Even Kerry could not have brought them home this early. It will be years.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. personally i think the real challenge, is the media
they couldn't present Kerry as he was. they created such caricature a of Kerry that was simply not true. i think media did a total injustice with something as important as electing a president to present the facts to the people
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. At the exit polls Moral Values=FlipFlop, IMHO.
People were not thinking abortion or gay rights when they said they voted on morals. In the voting booth, they were thinking FlipFlop. That was the bait BushGang used -- and they caught some fish with it.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. The truth is : we do not know.
We don't know what impact "moral issues" had on the election. What we do know is that Bush got more votes aginst Kerry in every state than he did against Gore in 2000...Why? We don't know.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. We did not lose, they won
They won with deceit and demagoguery. According to the PIPA study 40 million voters thought Saddam had WMD! 41 million voters thought Saddam provided substantial support to Osama. We can rearrange our deck chairs until the cows come home, but until we learn to overcome ignorance and superstition, they will continue to win. You can argue about voter fraud all you want, but on Jan. 20 they will win.
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