I feel so disheartened I want to leave the US

[bluedeminredstate]

Is this totally wimpy? I have a 12 y.o. son who I will never allow to be cannon fodder for this debacle, and until our elections are fair and open with a system to check the results, I don't see a change.
I thought having a plan in place was a good idea if I had to remove my kid from their clutches, but now I feel like there's no
reason to stay - these bastards seem to have it locked up for the forseeable future.
Is the wound just too fresh to think clearly?

[Geek_Girl]

1. I'm start to feel the same way

But I have an ederly gandmother and mother that I need to think of. I have a 2 year old and I'm starting to think of plan B as well.

[keopeli]

2. Your senses are correct. Have a plan A, B and C

It would be smart to have a plan to leave the country quickly. I would if I had a teenage or younger son or daughter.

I regret that you can not teach your kids to love their country and want to defend her.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. I go back and forth on this, too

By the way, you have one of my favorite DU usernames!

[bluedeminredstate]

5. Thank you.

I always thought it was a little, um... large, but I like the double meaning.

[leftchick]

4. join the crowd....

I need to convince my husband we need to go NOW! He is in denial... :(

[bluedeminredstate]

8. Thankfully, mine is on the same page

and after what he's seen being done in our name, he's searching options. He's also a former Navy pilot who enlisted in Viet Nam knowing he'd be drafted, so it's not like he hates the military. On the other hand best not bring up LBJ and McNamera around him...
Two place stick out for us so far - Ireland and Scotland. Scotland wants immigrants, and the English language thing is helpful in both countries. Plus neither has pissed off our enemy that I know of.

[leftchick]

12. how about NZ?

they have relaxed their entry requirements very recently. You should check it out! I am only checking out Canada so far. I have elderly parents that need me still so I can't stray far.

[bluedeminredstate]

25. A possibility

but so far away from family left behind. But whatever it takes to keep my son (and daughter, for that matter) safe. They will never fight in this war based on fiction which is a cancer on the very soul of our nation.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

49. Anglophone country emigration not easy; Israel, Germany probably easiest

Well, I referred to this in my other post but...

in general it's surprisingly difficult to emigrate between Anglophone countries. Canada has memories of the Vietnam era and they've intro'd restrictions that make migration (and citizenship) for Americans a more trying ordeal than you might otherwise think. Australia/NZ aren't as tough as they were 10 years ago but still make it very difficult. Ireland I'm less sure about, but UK overall makes it tough unless you're in the EU or Commonwealth (US doesn't count-- they haven't forgiven us for 1776 :P ). The easiest places to immigrate to are always the ones that have laws on the books encouraging immigration from Diaspora members-- like Israel (if you're Jewish) or Germany (if you have German/Germanic ancestry-- Dutch/Scandinavian e.g. apparently OK-- or if you're Jewish), where it's not too difficult esp. if you're professional.

You shouldn't worry too much about the non-English language issue; there's always a large enough assemblage of US/UK expat communities in these developed countries to help ease you in, and when the language is all around you you'll pick it up within a couple years anyway. (German and Romance languages are so close to English that they're not too difficult anyway.) You'd have to get recertified for your profession, but that's gonna be an issue anywhere you go (even different US states). If things get bad enough and you feel you have no choice but to take off, keep your field wide open-- there are plenty of good places, and many will allow you to maintain dual citizenship anyway (even continue to vote in US elections).

[holboz]

15. We've already made the decision to leave!

My husband is English so it's a bit easier for us. We've already applied for a British passport for our daughter.

To be fair, we were planning to move back to England before our daughter reaches school age (she's 10 months old now), but we're both quite alarmed at the state of the country so we've decided to go ahead and make the move. I have no confidence in this administration and the sinking of the dollar has us greatly concerned. Tony Blair is getting absolutely caned by the British public for standing aside Bush. The UK is holding him accountable for taking them into a war based on faulty intelligence.

The economy in the UK is quite strong so we're going to get screwed on the exchange rate (in today's business section it said $1.84 = 1 pound sterling). But we feel that it's worth it. Not only because of how we feel about the direction of the country, but we know our daughter will receive a better education in the UK than she will in Arkansas.

[newyawker99]

41. Hi holboz!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[The empressof all]

32. I'm in the same boat

My SO is also in denial. He laughs and says sure we can go live in Italy when we retire. I don't think we'll make it til then.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

6. Bye.

If you're interested in helping make America better for your son, please feel free to stay though.

[Deja Q]

30. Quite. And where is ultimately safe from the neocons?

I'd say another planet. But if you can get there, so can they.

[Nicholas_J]

7. Problem is

That while other countries complain about the re-election of Bush, they will do little to assit those who feel the same way.Whille they accept relatively uneducated people trying to escape other coutries for political asylum, Americans are simply undesirables everywhere.

Notice the rapid response of Canada to the massive number of prople who hit their immigration web-site after the election. Canada has raised its immigration quota for Americans for a few years, but this is about 400,000. It is odd, becasue these nations would likely benefit from the best and brightest Americans and be able to greatly advance their own economies by grabbing the many blue state workers who drive the engine of the U.S. economy, and all that the U.S. would be left with was those in Red States who are largely less educated. The blue states produce the lions share of the U.S. GDP whie red states do not. This is why these red states are have to rely on the national version of foreign aid in order to even keep their own governments functioning. Overall they do not produce enough to keep themselves functioniing without the vast suims of money that come to them from the federal coffers, largely at the expense of the Blue States.

Allowing people to emigrate from America would bee the biggest slap in the face to America that other nations could deliver.

It is really no different than those people who tried to escape from the Soviet Bloc nations in the last half of the 20th century. Conservaitves wouold point to the fact that all of those people trying to escape from communism pointed to the superiority of the free market system, bt do not know how to deal with the idea that so many Americans want to escape from conservatism to go to countries that are far more liberal. They kknow that these other nations will not accept so many Americans trying to escape from conservatism, so they can afford to mock those who stae that they would like to leave the U.S. but would actually tremble with fear at the loss of their best minds and workers if other countreis opened their doors. In fact we would likely see them make efforts to prevent it if it were possible, and we might see a "Berlin Wall" go up at the Nortthern Border" if Canada were to open its doors for asylum from conservatism.

First of all, it would vindicate the Canadian Liberal governments, and do a good deal of harm to the conservatices in Canada who are trying to formulate a government more like the Conservative Bush government.
The desire to leave is every bit as ominous to conservatives as the actual attempts to leave the Communist states was used to vindicate those conservatives in the U.S. who would point to the exodus from communism as a negative for those who supported social welfare state

The best things liberalcould do if a draft is inevitably reinstituted is to assist those who want to getout to get away from it to do so with financial support, making sure that only those who ipposed this regime were assisted.

Another thing would be to support funding of legal aid for those who objected to the war on moral grounds to have b\the very best representation possible.

[Quixote1818]

9. Self Delete

Sorry, I missed the part about your son. Woops.

[bluedeminredstate]

13. My son's life and limbs

mean more to me than ANYTHING!!!

[sweetheart]

10. Similar concern

My daugter still lives inside the US, and will reach draft age this
time round. I'm prepared to airlift her out and offer her refuge
if such be needed by her cannon fodder years. As well, there is
little point in paying any taxes to this bunch of criminal crackpots.
Being abroad is a way for a conscience to sleep at night in this
regard.

Ongoing trend, i believe. I would not be suprised to see americans
abroad peaking 10 million in short order. (7 million now). As a
reality check on declaring your independence, here is something
worth reading afresh:

WHEN in the Course of human Events,
it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great- Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.

HE has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.

HE has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

HE has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.

HE has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.

HE has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.

HE has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of the Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and the Convulsions within.

HE has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

HE has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

HE has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.

HE has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance.

HE has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.

HE has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

HE has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

FOR quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us;

FOR protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

FOR cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:

FOR imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

FOR depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:

FOR transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences:

FOR abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rules into these Colonies:

FOR taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

FOR suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.

HE has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

HE has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.

HE is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.

HE has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

HE has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.

IN every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.

NOR have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.

WE, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

[shesemsmom]

11. I love my country

but I happen to love my Daughter more. If it comes down to it we will leave here. Mexico, Canada or where ever. She will not fight Bushes war in Iraq. He can talk up all the no draft crap he wants to, but I can see plainly with almost 1200 dead troops and many many more wounded., he can't fight there without more kids. He'll be fighting it without mine. He can send his own sweet little Daughters.This is a man who steals elections. It is nothing for him to LIE outright about the draft. This is a man who lied right to ours faces about wmd. To hell with him.: He can go :nuke: himself

[cosmik debris]

14. What is the threshold

At what point do you decide that you have to flee or fight. I am a pacifist and I would rather flee to Canada that shoot my neighbor. It makes me very sad that I have to contemplate such issues.

viva la raza

[shesemsmom]

16. will leave when it becomes apparent that my daughter will be drafted

She is not yet draft age, but will be in a few years, by then we should know the score, otherwise I'm staying right here to see the bastards out

[Eurobabe]

18. ditto, mine are almost 20 and 23, girls are NOT safe from this admin.

[shesemsmom]

19. so what may I ask is you plan

our retirement drawn out can get us settled ans we hope to find jobs where ever we light

[mtnsnake]

17. If I could pick myself up & plop myself down in another country

....and have my family and friends with me, and still make a decent living, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Who really wants to be part of a country that stands for BUllSHit. Unfortunately, for most of us it's easier said than done, so I guess we'll have to fight our asses off as long as we're here.

[NurseLefty]

20. I would like to see a movement form

If indeed many of us plan to leave (as I am), we should not leave quietly. We need to remind those who are in power that the consequence of their dominance is that they will lose the best and brightest of Americans to other, more democratic nations... The fact remains that conservatives need the "liberal elites" more than vice-versa.
I resent the "put up and shut up" approach of the conservatives, as if it is our duty to be their doormats.
I expect this issue to be a very debated one amongst the Left. I understand that by leaving I am deserting The Cause. But it is a decision each of us is entitled to make. I base mine on a number of factors, including the entrenchment of The Right in a dominant position, the very apparent implosion of the Democratic party, and the very precarious place the US is in, in terms of its national debt, domestic programs, and over-extended military and foreign policy.
I will write a separate post about Canada... to follow...

[sweetheart]

21. borders and the cause

For some reason, people who have not left, think that by stepping
across the borders, that the fight ends... hardly. That is when it
begins, as you will be called upon by your destionation to stay
active and vote out criminals "back home".

Deserting the cause is buying cable TV.
Deserting the cause is joining 45% of non-voting america.

Leaving the US borders is not deserting the cause, and never will be.
Several of our most famous presidents spent years abroad, and with
the wisdom of those times, brought home wisdom.

[shesemsmom]

22. Thats all well and fine

but they ain't getting my kid.....the whole purpose of my leaving
otherwise I would stay RIGHT HERE planted by both feet and fight until every last one of them are gone

[cosmik debris]

23. A reminder

Many of us managed to avoid the draft in the sixties legally and without moving to Canada. I turned 18 in 1968 and by creative thinking I managed to stay out of the service until the lottery came along and gave me a reprieve. Running away, like war, should be your last option.

viva la raza

[shesemsmom]

26. like what way would I keep her out of the draft

There will be no college deferments. I don't think a pregnancy would be the answer. Conscientious objector, maybe. Any ideas

[cosmik debris]

29. I am keeping my scam secret

But I will reveal a couple I know that worked. One Person I know had "FUCK YOU" tattooed on the outside edge of his right hand so that every time he saluted, he sent a message. Another friend lost sufficient weight so that he could not pass the physical. But the best one was a Psych. grad student that got his prof. to hypnotize him and give him a post hypnotic suggestion that any time he saw a blood pressure cuff his heart rate would go up to 160. He took the physical 3 times and was eventually rejected.

good luck


viva la raza

[cosmik debris]

31. On second thought I'll tell my story

It is a little long winded.

First I got a college deferment, but I knew that that was not enough. So I went to the college health center and told then that I had arthritis and needed to use their whirlpool. I continued to use their whirlpool at least once a week for two years. Each time the health center personnel entered the reason for my visit as an arthritis treatment. They never questioned my claimed diagnosis, and they were happy to let me use their equipment because they needed patients to justify their salaries.

Meanwhile I joined Air Force ROTC as a plan B. (If I have to go I want to be an officer not a grunt) After two years of ROTC I had to take the Air Force physical. They asked if I had arthritis and I told them about my two year history at the college health center. Note that the Air Force ROTC physical is a lot easier to fail than the draft physical, another advantage of plan B. So anyway, I failed the ROTC physical, they notified my draft board and I was reclassified as 1H ineligible for draft.

The point is that the draft was for the people who were not clever enough to find a way out. George Bush, Bill Clinton, and I found a way out.

viva la raza

[AndyTiedye]

43. One Of My Classmates Did The Opposite

> Another friend lost sufficient weight so that he could not pass the physical

He was heavy to begin with, so he ATE his way to a 4F.

[sweetheart]

37. they ain't getting mine either

As i've got a spare bedroom outside of the USA where my spouse and
I own a house, with a regular life, my teenage daughter has a
refuge place.

In the underground railroad, some people do Schindler's job, others
are at the other end. Lifting someone out, can be easier than
sending someone out.

However, there are options involving foreign university and boarding
school, if you don't intend to leave, but want your child to
live past the bush wars. Foreign universities are better than
american ones, much more than the local sales pitch would have it.
Considering the cultural education as well, and the (much cheaper!)
factor, it may be worth considering if you want to keep
"both feet RIGHT HERE".

[douglasjkruse]

24. ya...kind of wimpy..

Sorry - but I think anyone who leaves is doing themselves and this country a disservice.

I hate to sound cheesy but I always think back to my history lessons where we were taught about America's founding fathers and the trials and tribulations they suffered to give us The Constitution. Regardless of where you go (please believe me, I've live in both Europe and middle east), there is nothing more beautiful than the freedoms we have here in the United States. I strongly believe in New Hampshire's state motto "Live Free or Die", I think this country and its freedoms are worth (staying) fighting for.

If we stick together and fight we'll be fine.

[bluedeminredstate]

27. NH is my home state

and I'm quite familiar with the motto, but sorry, I don't share your optimism. Sticking together didn't get these war criminals out of the WH and the deck is stacked against us.

[shesemsmom]

28. I agree

we are sitting ducks and I can't wait for that last shoe to drop and we can't get our Daughter out of here

[martinolich]

40. ...It really depends...

..On what you have to lose (children to an illegitimate war) and, frankly, on how old you are....I've been fighting this right wing shit for at least twenty years...I'm tired...and I'm not at all sure I want to devote my dwindling years to fighting. I would not want to renounce my citizenship, but would accept dual citizenship, or permanent residency in liveable atmosphere with people of similar values.

[newyawker99]

42. Hi martinolich!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Blue_Tires]

33. i'm gettin out asap

soon as i can find a suitable job

[depakid]

34. I'm researching opportunities for internships

and possibilities for continuing my graduate studies abroad. If that doesn't pan out, I'll be seeking work overseas- preferably in a commonwealth country. Personally, I don't see a very bright here in America. The far-right will NEVER willingly give up power, unless and until some disaster like an economic collapse, a expanded and losing war or some environmental disaster or pandemic happens. I don't relish being here when that happens- the way I see it, they might just hit the trifecta.

[AntiCoup2K4]

35. Here's a little perspective for those thinking about leaving

DISCLAIMER: I didn't write this, nor do I neccessarily agree with every word of it, but some valid points are made.....

Ken Schram Commentary: Wimpy Democrats Packing To Leave?
November 12, 2004
By Ken Schram

SEATTLE - Are people really packing?

It's kind of amusing to hear about all the folks who are so despondent about President Bush being re-elected that they're supposedly contemplating moving to either Canada or New Zealand.

Now, I didn't vote for the guy, and I whined mightily when he was given another term, but moving out of the country just never crossed my mind.

Surviving 8 years of Ronald Reagan tells me that I can handle 4 more years of George Bush.

I can only assume that any political refugee 'wanna be's' are merely wimpy Democrats and fair weather liberals.

I've never been an "America, Love It or Leave It" kind of guy.

But if you don't love it, and you want to leave it, hell, nobody's gonna stop you, and several may kick in for the cost of a U-Haul!

But if you're just jabbering about leaving and don't really intend to go, put a cork it.

All you're doing is encouraging those fringe conservatives to believe that the country is now theirs on a platter.

It isn't.

This was an election, not a coronation.

And those of us who plan on sticking around aren't exactly inclined to roll over and play dead for the next 2-4 years.

http://www.komotv.com/stories/33957.htm

[oscar-something]

36. fine, leave then

[union_maid]

38. I'd go

I'm not going, because I can't possibly get my whole family together to get out, but I'd go if I could. If I could have foreseen how this country would regress I'd have moved to Canada twenty or thirty years ago. This election is just the icing on the cake. I know it's better to stay and fight and everyone who leaves is a huge loss for our side, but hey, this country was founded on people leaving their countries of origin for a better place. No reason in the world that shouldn't continue to be a workable plan for some.

Emigrating is not easy and if you're serious, starting the process now is probably a good idea.

[mainer]

39. Please stay and fight

This is YOUR country. We need you here.

[Hailtothechimp]

44. They aren't getting rid of me without a fight.

They shouldn't run you off, either.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Doctor_J]

46. we're hoping

we have saved quite a bit of money by any standard except *'s base, and are trying to get employed in Canada. We have draft-aged kids, and between that and sending 1/3 of what we make to Halliburton, we have had enough.

I hope alot of us go, so that the red state moralists can learn to get by without the blue state subsidies that flood their states.

[LiberalAndProud]

47. This country cannot afford any more drain of the Blue.

We must UNITE. We must ORGANIZE (our party is in disarray nationwide).

ARE YOU A PATRIOT?
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!

In closing, please stay. Please. I'm begging here.

[Doctor_J]

50. nonsense

the only way this will reach a real conclusion is to let it go all red - let them try to run the nation on faith, with no revenue, endless war, all the news approved by the government, no clean air or water, and corporations in charge of every facet of their lives. they'll of course blame the resulting disaster on Clinton, but we will be safe and sound in a real democratic nation.

[LiberalAndProud]

52. Piffle!

Unless you know of an off-planet colony and can tell me how I can afford the fare for myself and my family, there will be no such thing as a "safe and sound" nation, democratic or otherwise.

[Doctor_J]

54. the rest of the world will not let this get much beyond our borders

though the fact that they've let * murder hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq is a little worrisome, I am pretty sure that one or two more attacks and the UN will fight back against *. We are getting in such a financial hole that they should be able to sink us economically without much effort.

And, as I said in the original post, the way the repubs want to run this country will spell disaster very soon - no revenue, lots of extravagant spending, no allies. Grab a seat of vantage and watch them self destruct. Just don't help them pay for their insanity.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

51. In many cases can emigrate and *still* continue to vote in USA

Remember that some countries allow you to retain dual citizenship, i.e. you can move elsewhere (and pay your taxes/have your residence there) but still have US citizenship and vote. I know Israel does this, not sure about other countries. But in any case, it doesn't have to be either/or. If you want to move and do the expat thing, in at least some cases you can continue to do your little part at the ballot box and help get a Democrat elected.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

48. Prefer to stay and fight but would leave if wingnuts really get busy

It's not easy to emigrate and I'd prefer to carry on the battle here, but some things that really would send me packing to greener pastures:

(1) A military draft. It's bad enough that we've had to stand by powerlessly as the chicken-hawks and neocons ruin our country's reputation and incite terrorism with the debacle in Iraq. If they start drafting us to shed blood for that and further disasters-to-be, fuhgeddaboutit. I'd fight to defend my country, not to fatten the pockets of the vested interests pigging out at the trough in Iraq.

(2) Fundies and nukes = baaad combination. Of all the things our government can do, one of the actions with the fewest checks and balances would be launching nuclear weapons. This is sheer, unadulterated stupidity, a product of old boneheaded Cold War doctrines, but effectively a fanatical POTUS and military commander could launch 100s of nukes against Russia in minutes (with the inevitable retaliation) either accidentally or deliberately. No congressional or cabinet consultation, no discussion with anybody of sound mind-- if a Caligula gets power, based on chain of command, he can really ruin your day from the nuclear silos. Not farfetched anymore-- some of the extreme Holy Rollers actually have wet dreams about starting a big nasty Nuclear Holocaust with Russia b/c they think this would bring about the Rapture and in their minds, heaven would judge all the millions of victims anyway. (Reagan used to invite that fundy crank Hal Lindsey to nuclear wargaming sessions.) If Bush starts spouting off phrases from Daniel or Revelations while waxing dreamily about the nuclear football, or lets any fundy within 1,000 miles of the trigger, I'm outta here.

(3) The $5 trillion deficit. Hope somebody can restrain our POTUS while he's going nuts in the candy store, but if not, then after 10 massive preemptive wars to find nonexistent WMDs while making the country safe and tax-free for billionaires, there just won't be a future for our kids-- we'll be a vassal state of Japan and China anyway (they're buying up all that debt).

As for where I'd go? Well, those sunny Mediterranean countries like Spain and Italy are always nice and welcoming to professionals, and I've always dreamt about having my own personal Ruritanian palace in Monaco or one of those other tiny Euro countries the size of a mall parking lot. But in practice the visa issue's tough for those countries, same deal with Canada and/or Australia/NZ (*very* tough to emigrate to these places, folks-- they know a lot of us want out and they don't make it easy). If you're Jewish-- Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, religiously secular-- you can immigrate to Israel, no strings attached. (So long as you stay out of the settlements, Israel's probably safer than most big US conurbations bigger than Bakersfield.) Also, I've heard Germany has a similar visa law-- if you have German ancestry (or if you're Jewish-- they have very philo-Semitic laws) you're an "Aussiedler" and can move yourself and family there. As always, special skills and professional experience are always a big plus in pushing the application along. Hope it never comes to this, but it's good to have a few back-up plans considering what we're up against for the next few years.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.