House Minority Leader Kucinich or Pelosi

[Padme Amidala]

Pelosi voted for Res 757 which linked 9/11 to Iraq, despite a 9/11 commission report that says otherwise. She also voted for the Homeland Security Act which exempted pharmaceutical companies from poisoning children with mercury in kids' shots. This is the same Pelosi who went on TV and said and informed the TV audience of her "private reprimand" of Jim McDermott for his failure to use the words "under God" when leading the Pledge of Allegiance and her assurance that his commission would never happen again.

Dennis Kucinich is working harder than Kerry to see that the votes in Ohio are counted. He kept his word to hang in the race till the convention and was the only candidate, other than Kerry, to received votes at the convention for President. Dennis chairs the larges caucus in Congress, the Progressive Caucus. He has proven he will not back down from a fight and will always do the right thing.

So who do you want for minority leader?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Padme Amidala]

3. You think that linking Saddam and Iraq to 9/11 is a liberal thing to do?

Or perhaps failing to get us that paper trail for the 2004 election was the kind of leadership we should continue?

Pelosi's leadership cost us seats in the House of Representative. It's time for the Party Leaders to back the Party voters.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Padme Amidala]

6. If Dennis had been the candidate, Bush would be packing now.

Unlike Kerry, Dennis would not have conceded.

As for Pelosi, this must be some new definition of liberal that would include Bush and his friends.

[paulk]

19. that's nonsense

absolute nonsense

did you just come on this site to pick fights between Democrats, or what?

[JohnKleeb]

20. you think Pelosi's not liberal?

she's in the same progressive caucus as he is, and has an equally progressive voting record, more so than him on social issues.

[genius]

22. John, the Homeland Security Act was not liberal.

The act which re-defined terrorism so broadly as to include all Democrats and strikers is not a liberal act and yet Pelosi backed it. Saying that Saddam and Iraq were connected to 9/11 is not liberal. Ordering Jim McDermott to say "under God" like a good Christian American is not liberal. Sorry, she and the grass roots Democrats are too far apart on too many issues. It might not be that she's a Republican in Democrat's clothing. She could just be stupid and not know the difference between Osama and Saddam or between the First Amendment and the writings of Pat Robertson. A lot of us people in her own state are pretty embarrassed by the way she's been leading the House Democrats down the Republican path.

[JohnKleeb]

sorry but I know her record is more socially liberal than Kucinich's is

You have to use whole voting histories before judging people, not a few votes. BTW, I think Kucinich should be elected whip first before he comes our party leader in the house, you can't just jump from where he is to party leader, you have to build alliances. Pelosi was the one Kucinich led with against that war declaration, she sometimes votes on stuff I dont agree with, so does Kucinich, hell I think he's so wrong on the flag desceration amendment, should I thus proclaim him a republican lite because of this, this is what people do to other democrats, I cant stand the hypocrisy but I'll stand up for Pelosi because I believe she is a fine leader.

[genius]

25. Check again. She's far from progressive. She regularly caves to GOP.

She was a little better before becoming Min Leader than she is now. Now she's awful. But she has always been conservative to moderate at best. Dennis is as socially liberal as they come. I don't know which votes you've checked but her voting record leaves more than a lot to be desired by social liberals, of which I am one. And it is well-known that her daughter Christina opposed the idea of a paper trail when it came up before her state's E-board because she thought calling for a paper trail would offend Kevin Shelley. Apparently, she's taking after her mom.

[JohnKleeb]

26. well Dennis has enolved but you must admit he was socially moderate

at his first election as are many rust belt dems, its not a bad thing but Ive seen that she has good ratings from groups, vote smart's vote check is down now it seems.

[genius]

31. Nancy's the one who believes "under God" must be said in the pledge.

Dennis has always been liberal on health care, education, civil rights, the death penalty and labor issues. He was the only candidate who said he would not appoint anti-choice nominees. It's Dennis who has been calling for a cancellation of NAFTA and the WTO and for Universal Health Care. Dennis is also the one who has been calling for publically-funded education, preschool through college. Nancy has always been much more concervative on all these issues than Dennis. I know that the members of the PHDC have been carefully tracking the records of the members of Congress and they have been unhappy with Nancy's record because of her catering to the right-wing.

[JohnKleeb]

34. can I see links please? I really would do my best research on project vote

smart but they're doing something with their vote system. I believe Kerry also said he would only nominate judges who would be pro choice too. I agree she's far from perfect but I don't think she's been voting as conservatively as you believe.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=H0222103
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BC032003
these are only interest groups records but they both are progressives, there is no denying that and its tough here in the 10th district to even get a moderate republican so I dont take people like pelosi for granted.

[blm]

28. I think Kleeb is factoring in their entire records in Congress.

Dennis has had some past religious conviction votes against abortion which he changed in recent years, but, he still is for an amendment against flag burning, which most liberals see as a free speech issue.

I would like to see Kucinich as Minority leader, but, I don't expect to see it happen until 2006. when the foundation for his leadership has been made.

[JohnKleeb]

30. this is what I mean

I too would like to see him be party leader but it won't happen on a dime. I am all for him being a promient party leader, dont get me wrong, I just know that Pelosi and Kucinich both have progressive voting records, and that eating are own isnt needed.

[genius]

32. Actually, that's not correct. On choice he's much more lib than Nancy

At least at the present time. His only past issue related to funding. He never voted against choice. He took the strongest pro-choice stance of all candidates. Nancy hasn't even been willing to go as far as his current position that non-choice nominees must be rejected.

[JohnKleeb]

37. do people in the house even get a say on judges?

i dunno if they do or not, but thats probably why she doesnt have a view on that, he does because he ran for president.
Unless Pelosi underwent an amazing transformation, the past 8 years of planned parenthood disagrees with you that hes more pro choice than her.
BTW I am not mad that he was once against abortion, I respect people who are against abortion, death penalty, etc.
1995-2003 On the votes that the Planned Parenthood (House) considered to be the most important, Representative Kucinich voted their preferred position 40 percent of the time.
1995-2003 On the votes that the Planned Parenthood (House) considered to be the most important, Representative Pelosi voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
Sorry I really don't mean to be critical of Kucinich but he always has been more moderate than Nancy Pelosi in regard to abortion issues, now in regard to some issues, yes he is more so than her but there are many issues where they are both equal.

[genius]

They often advise senators. Harmon told them to vote for Goss

[OrwellwasRight]

61. Pelosi Conservative to Moderate at Best?

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

First, calling anyone "conservative to moderate" just because she is not as progressive as Kucinich is like saying anyone even slightly to the left of Bush is moderate to liberal. It is not a fair comparison.

Second, as an avowed progressive, I think we should be happy and proud that we have anyone even close to progressive in such a prominent leadership position. Kucinich and Pelosi are both in the progressive caucus and we should be pleased at the fact that we are making progress to leadership positions (we could have has a Daschle--if you want to call somebody a capitulator, he is a much better example).

Third, I think that you are absolutely right in your assessment that she has not stood up strongly enough against the Iraq War, the $87 billion supplemental, and the war on our civil liberties that is mis-named the war on terrorism. However, this is not Pelosi's fault per se. Unfortunately, it is a symptom of a larger disease that has plagued the party for a few decades. We (meaning party leaders) are so petrified of living up to the Republican's charge that we are "soft on defense," that we will vote for any war just to prove we're as hawkish as they are. This pressure to be macho affects those in leadership positions even more than the rank-and-file, so she had a lot of pressure on her to support the whole war on terror nonsense so that other Dems could get re-elected without having to face the Rove commercial saying "Don't vote for X. He's in the same party as that wacky Nancy Pelosi who wants terrorists to roam free and kill us." This pressure is pure politics, and makes, as we seem to agree, bad policy. Policy-by-fear serves no one, but it is something that we need to solve as a party, not solve by picking on a woman who has otherwise demonstrated good leadership and has developed some solid progressive credentials.

Finally, as a few others have pointed out, this is the most wasteful kind of in-fighting. I know we have a lot of soul searching and strategy planning to do as a party, but the least of our worries is about the authenticity of the progressive credentials of two Reps, both of whom are among the most progressive 20% of the House.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Albert Einstein]

66. Under your reasoning, we should be glad Bush is as progressive as he is

You have to be kidding about Nancy. There are about 150 or more Congressional leaders with significantly better records than she has. Of the Democrats, she has one of the worst Congressional records ever.

[OrwellwasRight]

68. No, that isn't my reasoning, Einstein

In fact, if you go back and read my post, I specifically state that saying calling anyone to the right of Kucinich a conservative is as ridiculous as calling anyone to the left of Bush a liberal.

I hardly think that is the same as saying Bush is progressive. The whole point of the comparison is to say that you are not a good guy just because you're not as bad as the head fascist. By the same token, one does not have "one of the worst Congressional records ever" simply because one is not as far left as Kucinich. You shoud really try to read and understand my post before throwing out freeper insults. I'm about as happy that Bush is President as a witch was to be living in Salem during the witch trials.

The fact is that there are just over 200 Dems in this Congress. To say that there are 150 of them (about 75%) who are more progressive than Pelosi is simply a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens here in DC.

Those Dems who, by their own self-identification, would be more conservative than Pelosi would include the members of the Blue Dog Coalition, the Dems on the Bipartisan Pro-Life Caucus, and the Dems on the Congressional Sex & Violence in the Media Caucus.

Other more conservative Dems would be those who have scored less than 100 from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, less than 87 from the ACLU, less than 100 from the Human Rights Campaign and the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, less than 93 from the NAACP. There are lots more, but I am not going to do all the research for you (http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=H0222103).

I challenge you to demonstrate that there are 150 Members of Congress with more progressive voting records than Pelosi. I would be interested to see the 150 names you pick and the reasons why.

Again, go back and read my post. What I am saying is that we should not waste our rage on each other, splitting hairs about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin: we should reserve our venom for the neocons who deserve it, not fellow Dems who aren't our exact clones.

Oh yeah, and I voted for Kucinich in the primaries, btw.

[Albert Einstein]

67. She voted against our civil liberties. Pelosi made strikers terrorists

That's part of what the Homeland Security Act was all about. It destroyed what was left of our civil liberties.

[OrwellwasRight]

70. I agree totally.

I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't think that the USA PATRIOT Act is garbage. Again, read my post. I don't defend the PATRIOT Act. It's unconstitutional.

In fact, what I wrote was that it is a tragedy that the party as a whole has had to move to the right because it is afraid of being labeled soft on terrorism and soft oon defense. That did not start with Pelosi. It goes back years --it's why JFK order the Bay of Pigs fiasco. I don't support it, but I recognize that it happens and why. Instead of blaming Pelosi, who has been a much more outspoken critic of the Bush Admin and DeLay leadership than has Daschle or McAuliffe, we need to work on putting more progressives in leadership positions.

By the way, the USA PATRIOT Act passed the Senate 98-1 and the House 357-66. Some of the most impressive and loyal Dem members of the House unfortunately let themselves be bullied into it (including Inslee, McNulty, Menendez, Doggett, Kleczka, P. Kennedy, Lowey, Lofgren, Pallone, Napolitano, and Slaughter).

That doesn't mean I am defending the bill or these votes. What it does mean is that I do not think it is useful or productive to try to negate a person's entire history of progressive politics on the basis one or a few votes. Believe me, the question that Members will be asking themselves is not whether Pelosi is progressive enough. It is whether she has the leadership skills. Personally, I'd like somebody that has both.

[iwantmycountryback]

46. Nope

Kucinich would have been crushed by Bush. I like him and all, but it wouldn't have been close.

[Deathadder]

55. That's only an opinion.

And it's not even what Liberal intelligence tells us. We need to stop fighting each other, and start fighting Bush. Kucinich would have done just as good as Kerry. Kucinich carried some great ideas, Kerry was able to raise lots of money, both would have dne well, Bush just snuck by.

[jsw_81]

58. That's absurd

Kucinich would have lost all fifty states.

[Albert Einstein]

65. Padme, you're absolutely right. Dennis would have fought for the voters

He would not have quit.

[fujiyama]

77. That's the dumbest thing I've heard

because he would have lost and lost big.

[Comicstripper]

13. Unelectable?

He's, um....a congressman. You know they're elected, right?

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. Some of us still like to fall back upon Republican planted memes

Comic. ;) :hi:

[jsw_81]

59. Please tell me you're not that ignorant

Being elected Congressman from an urban, Democratic district in Cleveland is a far cry from being elected President of the United States. Kucinich would have a hard time just getting elected to the Senate.

[Comicstripper]

76. Er, I realize that..

But, he was elected, yes?
So, it stands to reason that he is able to be electedelectable.
That was my point.
I love Kucinich, and he truthfully could win because he doesn't run from that liberal label.
But he ain't GONNA win. Never in a million years. He won't be given the chance.

[OrwellwasRight]

60. "that allowed 'liberal' to become a bad word"

NO -- Kucinich had zero to do with this. It began with campaigners during the Reagan administration, progressed with Bush I's calling Dukakis a "card carrying member of the ACLU," and continues up till the present day, with Bush II calling MOR Kerry a liberal.

What "allowed it to happen," besides Republican think tanks, language framers, and evil geniuses, was the enire Democratic Party doing what it has done best since 1980: caving. It didn't defend itself. It didn't try to take the word back. It didn't reciprocate by using "conservative" as a borderline cuss word. Instead, Dems agreed. We said, "no, no we're not liberal, no siree, not us." And we left people confused about who we are and what we stood for.

If you want someone to blame, don't blame those in the party with enough bravery, self-assurance and conviction to stand up for what they believe in. Blame those who capitulate, eqivocate, and moderate their principles; they are the ones that leaves us weak and wondering what to do in the face of heartbreaking loss.

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. And where is your fine candidate, Mr Kerry, today? He backed out

on a promise. Dennis hasn't. I'll take the "nutjob". Thanks. At least I know I won't be duped into canvassing.

[no name no slogan]

35. Nutty like a fox

With Dennis, you know EXACTLY where he stands. He's not afraid of sticking to his guns, and standing where he stands despite the political winds around him.

Even conservative Republicans vote for Dennis in his district. Why? Because, like Paul Wellstone, you always know where you stand with him. You may disagree with him on the issues, but at least you know what his position on the issue is, and why he takes it.

If the party nominated more people like Dennis Kucinich, we wouldn't have problems winning elections against chimps.

[JDStutts]

33. Kucinich was my first choice.

Kerry got my vote with reservations. A lot of Kerry voters started out supporting Kucinich. You do a disservice to our party when you call them all "nutjobs."

[WarNoMore]

2. Dennis Kucinich has proven time and again that he is a fighter.

of the people, by the people, for the people".

[montanacowboy]

5. Dennis all the way

Get rid of Pelosi, we already have Reid in the Senate, we dont need another one in the House

Get out of the people's House and Senate you DINOs -

Bring on the Progressives, true ones like Dennis

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. What has Kucinich done to make sure that the OH votes are counted?

:shrug: If he is doing anything, he sure is being quite about it.

[Padme Amidala]

8. No, actually he's been standing up and calling for a counting of all votes

He gave a speech the other night about how the right to have one's vote counted is a basic human right.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Where did he give the speech?

Does anyone have a transcript?

[genius]

27. I know he talked about this at the Office of the America's Award ceremony

That event was video-taped by Ralph (I don't recall his last name at the moment). I'm sure someone else here has his contact information.

[goodhue]

14. see here

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1110-31.htm

Published on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
A Note On The Presidential Election in Ohio
by Congressman Dennis Kucinich

The 2004 presidential election was determined by the results of Ohio. The unofficial result, as reported on November 3, had George Bush with approximately 136,000 more votes than John Kerry. Senator Kerry conceded the election to President Bush. He also said every vote would be counted.

I have been vigilant in monitoring Ohio's election in 2004. Attorneys from my party closely monitored the election before and during election day. While there were some incidents of voter intimidation noted by the attorneys, most if not all cases were resolved at the scene because of quick action by challengers, witnesses, the Kerry campaign, and volunteers from other campaigns including my own.

The unofficial count gave Ohio to George Bush by approximately 136,000 votes. The official count by county Boards of Election will begin on Saturday, November 13, 2004. It is due at the Secretary of State's office by December 1. The Secretary of State must certify the election by December 3.

During this interim period, attorneys from both political parties, and those representing me, will be watching the procedures by county Boards of Elections carefully. Among the most important issues to note is the counting of the overvotes. Overvotes occur when more than one candidate is indicated on the punch card. Another issue relates to whether all properly cast provisional ballots will be counted.

* * *

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1110-31.htm

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. Now that Dennis is on the case, I am confident of a Kerry victory

;)

[UpsideDownFlag]

40. ...what has pelosi done, for that matter? nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

50. Her state didnt having any trouble delivering its electoral votes to Kerry

[genius]

63. There are enough uncounted ballots in CA to change prop results

Right now a woman could go to prison for life for stealing a jar of baby food. That could change if the ballots are counted. If Pelosi thinks Californians should have health care, she should demand the ballots be counted so 72 can pass. It's really close.

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. Is stealing baby food a felony?

I suppose if you steal a whole truckload of baby food. That must be one big baby.

[WI_DEM]

9. DK for House Min. Leader, Durbin for Sen Min. Leader, Dean for DNC

that would be a good start to rebuilding the party.

[NoPasaran]

12. Yeeeeeeargh!

Time to quit being doormats!

[AntiCoup2K4]

16. Fuck yeah, now we're getting some where

The Hell with this "centrist moderate" (READ:neocon appeasement) DLC bullshit. REAL Democrats in every leadership position, and let's start getting this party, and this country, back to where it should be, instead of running into a ditch on the far right shoulder, courtesy of the Bush Criminal Empire and their chauffeurs From, Marshall, McUseless, Bayh, Miller, Lieberman, etc.

[damntexdem]

11. Even had Pelosi voted the other way on 757 ...

it would still be Kucinich who SHOULD be House leader.

[AmerDem]

15. neither

neither one of theses two have leadership type stature that is badly needed in our party. Although they both are great assets on our side.

[OrwellwasRight]

71. Who would you pick? nt

[genius]

17. Dennis brought down the house at the Office of The America's event Sunday

He has the courage to do the right thing and people love him. The more people who get to see him, the more people who realize that he's the right man to lead us.

[Fleurs du Mal]

18. Dennis rocks

Never minces words and stands up for his principles.

[mmonk]

21. No contest,

DK

[Darranar]

36. Dennis Kucinich! n/t

[Zorra]

38. Although DK would be best for the job, he does not have the qualifications

for it.

He is not a DLC corporate ass kisser, which is mandatory for all Democratic House and Senate minority and majority leadership positions.

[UpsideDownFlag]

39. wow, there's a surprising poll result....nt

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. Just shoot me now.

That's not a choice, as far as I'm concerned...

[donheld]

42. We need a kick ass Minority leader - Maxine Waters

[genius]

44. Maxine's really awesome. I'd like her to run for Senate in 06

[Spiffarino]

45. OK, you've got a good one there...

Maxine is awesome.

[Lone_Wolf]

48. I agree... Maxine

I like DK, but Maxine would be better.

[Spiffarino]

43. Fuckit. Time to become a real opposition party

Denny K, all the way.

[goobergunch]

47. Abstain pending evidence

Is there any evidence that Kucinich is interested in becoming House Democratic Leader? If so, I'd like to see it.

[DaveinMD]

49. if Kucinich was our leader

we'd be lucky to win 100 seats in our next election.

Steny Hoyer would be a great leader.

[Nestea]

51. What a loaded poll.

I mean it's fair to have choices for minority leader, but you're obviously biased on this one.

[Zep]

52. Kucinich. Out of affinity. But it ain't gonna happen ...

... not in this session anyway.

But it would not surprise me to see Pelosi replaced with someone <b>less</b> progressive.

[DaveinMD]

53. Pelosi

isn't progressive. She's a San Francisco liberal. She may not effective, but she is very progressive.

[genius]

62. In other words, she's like Feinstein. That fits.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

54. Dennis, of course! No question. nt

[jsw_81]

56. Neither!

I have been disappointed by Pelosi's performance over the past two years and it's probably not a good idea to have a leader who represents what is arguably the most left-wing city in America. The "San Francisco Democrat" stuff (and all that implies) just kills us in the red states. As for Kucinich, he's far too liberal to even be seriously considered. This is a guy who couldn't even win his home district when he ran for president; I'd be shocked and stunned if he were to ever be elected to the party leadership.

We should instead choose a moderate from the midwest or south who won't alienate swing state voters (e.g. Harold Ford). I know the left-wing True Believers on this site won't like that, but if we want to reclaim this country in '06 and '08 we have got to start appealing to the red state moderates. If we don't, get ready for President Frist. Or even worse, President Santorum.

[DaveinMD]

57. Steny Hoyer

would be a great choice.

[Albert Einstein]

64. Go Dennis! Nancy is part of the reason we didn't have a paper trail

She didn't see it as a priority and now, in part, thanks to her, we've got Bush for four more years unless the Greens and Libertarians pull off a miracle. Kerry won. Why didn't Pelosi care about making sure we had a legitimate President?

[IndianaGreen]

69. Pelosi has been a miserable disappointment

that fell way short of her credentials. If she stays there for any length of time she will end up being a miserable failure like Gephardt.

[OrwellwasRight]

72. Anyone who voted for Kucinich

Please go to this thread if you are interested in joining the Kucinich Users Group. We need at least two more to get our own forum. Thanks!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2695950

Bold. Vision. Now.

[GreenPartyVoter]

74. Dennis all the way, baby!

-----------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[buddhamama]

75. Dennis!

A Progressive leader of the House, who is not afraid to stand up for what is Right, is exactly what the party needs.

[fujiyama]

78. Neither

I'm not too familiar with which Rep I would like, but as much as I like Kucinich (and I'd prefer him to Pelosi), I still don't view him as having a leaderhship role. Kucinich is correct on many issues but he just doesn't strike me as serious enough.