Forget electability. Why not Hillary?

[Goldmund]

Of course, I know that in the real world, we can't "forget electability". But I keep seeing posts over and over that seem to imply that people don't like Hillary for reasons more than just her likelyhood, or a lack thereof, to win.

Myself, I'm not crazy about any of these establishment Democrats, but I don't see how one could adore Kerry and despise Hillary.

So, what's your feeling? Again, forget about whether or not she can win in the GE. What do you like or not like about Hillary?

[Surikat]

1. I think that there is just a widely held feeling that...

Hillary simply couldn't win the White House and very few people want to go on a hopeless crusade with her for that reason.

[ecstatic]

2. I'm a down to earth gal

Hillary is not as hated as people here would like to think. Maybe we could start doing some propaganda between now and 2008 to make sure the public knows who she really is. I'm tired of the sexist posts about women not being electable.

[cali]

9. I've seen few posts about women

not being electable. I straight out don't like Hillary and I'm not wild about Bill. Nor do I see him as the asset to dems that so many here do. His post presidency popularity is lower now then it was when he left office- somewhere in the mid-forties. As for Hillary, she voted for the war and the 87 billion. She's moving to the right and jumping on the God bandwagon. No thanks.

[Surikat]

12. Yeah, but who IS she really?

[Jackpine Radical]

57. I have nothing against women candidates in general.

I personally find Hillary too DLC for my tastes. As long as we're not talking about electability, give me Cynthia McKinney.

[RafterMan]

3. She botched the healthcare thing so bad

it blew it out of the conversation for ten years.

I was not fond of her Senate campaign in New York, and if she has a significant list of accomplishments since taking office, nobody has showed me.

So the question is back to you -- electability aside, why Hillary?

[Goldmund]

10. Oh, I'm not crazy about Hillary either

But I'd have no problem supporting her, kindalike I had no problem supporting Kerry. My personal preference would be somebody of the Kucinich species, or at least Dean, but in a 2-party system you can't be too picky. Unfortunately.

I think that my main beef is that I don't understand how one can sing praises of Kerry or Bill Clinton, and despise Hillary at the same time. To me, they are from the same conveyor belt.

[RafterMan]

14. I can kind of see your point

but I was speaking more about her in terms of (not) being an effective political leader, rather than ideologically.

Even if you were on board with Bill or Kerry 100%, there'd be no reason to select Hillary to carry your banner.

[Goldmund]

17. Other than the healthcare thing,

what makes you think she's not an effective political leader?

She's a first-term senator. She voted for the war, the 87 billion, the Patriot Act -- and I hate her for it, but you know, so did everybody else. What is it about her, compared to the current crop of Democrats, that makes her an exceptionally ineffective political leader?

[crasmane]

50. Integrity is the thing she and her ilk are lacking.

Personal, political integrity as an opposition.
It's just that simple.

[Goldmund]

63. Yes, she AND HER ILK, I agree

And I would love to see all of that "ilk" junked.

[Julien Sorel]

38. I don't think anyone (here) does despise Hillary.

I like her myself, and thought for a time I'd be supporting her in 08. But I see no rural appeal in a Hillary candidacy, which means Gore states + Ohio or bust. We've done it twice now and failed, and I see nothing to suggest she'd do it better than Gore or Kerry did.

Unless the economy is a disaster, it's time to go in another direction.

[lastliberalintexas]

72. Me! Me!

Sorry, but I really can't stand the woman- OR her husband. But then, I've felt that way for more than 10 years now, so I'm at least getting used to it. :-)

[veteran_for_peace]

4. Hillary is part of the New Democrats

I want a real democrat. I am tired of voting for someone who will sell our jobs overseas in the name of progress. I am tired of voting for people who don't have the courage to vote their conscience. I am tired of voting for Democrats who attempt to appease the republicans in order to gain a small percentage of independents. I want to vote for somebody who has the courage of their convictions. Someone like Dennis Kucinich or Paul Wellstone.

[Goldmund]

13. "Someone like Dennis Kucinich or Paul Wellstone"

Oh, my friend, them dreams are sweet aren't they?

I'd love that too.

[SteppingRazor]

5. My only knock against her...

Except for the aforementioned electibility thing, of course, is that she shares one of Kerry's major downfalls. She is an utterly uninspring speaker. She can talk intelligently about issues, but she doesn't have that JFK/RFK passion that makes people want to believe that what you're saying is not only true, but also right and decent. We need someone to run for office that can not only make people believe us, but believe IN us.

[Krs216]

6. Thats easy to answer

Because running Hillary would be the same as just giving them the White House for 4 more years.

[Surikat]

15. That depends on who they run... if they play "it's his turn"

like they did with Dole, they're toast if there is an even vaguely credible Democradic challenger.

[Goldmund]

20. LOL. It's the neocons we're talking about, buddy.

[Goldmund]

18. Yes, but we said "forget electability".

[havocmom]

7. Nobody is electable until the ballots are safe and accurately counted

No point in even considering running another candidate until the methods by which elections are now stolen are stopped.

[mondo joe]

8. In the Bill/Hill split, Bill got the likability

I think I'd probably get along with Hillary just fine in life. But I think she's rather abrasive anddoesn't have anything like Bill's knack for people.

Charm is a hard thing to quantify.

[coloradodem2005]

11. It's too dynastic.

I don't want to alternate between Bushes and Clintons. I want some new blood in the WH.

[ecstatic]

16. While our party continues to make excuses..

The Republican party will get the credit for having the first female and/or nonwhite President. I thought we were supposed to be on the forefront of these issues.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

19. Because she's not a fighter

If you are going to go down in flames, at least you need someone who will stand up and speak the truth that people know but don't want to acknowledge. Barry Goldwater did that for the old GOP - loosing, but eventually convincing Americans that government programs cost more than they were worth.

Hillary? She's too nice. We need the Democratic equivalent of Newt Gingrich: a man unafraid to use constantly, repeatedly, and unapologetically use phrases like 'unChristian Right', 'typical GOP lie', 'thugs', 'third world incompetents', 'American Pharisees', 'borrow and spend'. Someone who will attack and attack and attack. Because when the s**t hits the fan because of GOP policies, the last person we need is someone who just stands there and smiles.

- C.D.

[ventvon]

21. Didn't you already try forgetting electability?

That's the only thing that matters.

[Goldmund]

26. Actually, no we didn't.

We picked (or, the DLC picked) Kerry because of his supposed "electability".

We saw how that turned out.

But I didn't want to initiate a discussion about that. I just meant "forget electability" for the purposes of this discussion.

[ventvon]

55. Kerry was never the most electable.

The media shoved that "Can Beat Bush" crap down primary voters' throats, and they bought it.

Kerry was never the most "electable."

He was more electable than Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, Braun, Lieberman, and Bob "I can't talk without looking like I am about to fall out" Graham, but that's a given.

[Goldmund]

60. So who's left, then?

Let's see... Gephardt, Edwards, and somebody else I'm forgetting. Both of which are even more lame than Kerry.

[lojasmo]

22. I despise Kerry, edwards, and Hillary for the same reasons

Iraq War Resolution
No Child left behind
and the patriot act.

[mtnsnake]

24. If Hillary is despised for Iraq then Dean is the only one who shouldn't be

[Goldmund]

28. Well, there's Kucinich, Sharpton, Wellstone, etc, etc.

[lojasmo]

46. wrong

kucinich, byrd, kennedy, dayton, graham....the list goes on and on.

Dean's my man, though.

[mtnsnake]

23. Sometimes I wonder if people really know Hillary as well as they think

From what I've seen and heard of her, she has the ability to attract and sway voters way more than what all her naysayers would like us to believe.

During her own campaign, Hillary came through my area in upstate NY several times, and I've never seen anything like it. After listening to her inspiring speeches, people just gravitated toward her, Democrats and many repukes alike, and I'm not just talking women.

I can't believe it when I hear people saying she's an uninspiring speaker. It's just the opposite. That is one smart tough lady, and if she makes up her mind to run, I don't think anyone will be able to stop her.

[goclark]

36. Hillary gave one of the best political speeches I have every heard

All of the labels that have been placed on her originated with the vast right wing conspiracy.

I saw her speak in Long Beach in September. She lights up the stage and the audience.

Her health care stance was marginalized not on its merits, the VRWC was silently working to not make it happen. And they were successful.They even had Democrats not willing to see its value. She was just way ahead of her time. Far too bright for that moment.

Of all of the candidates mentioned so far I see no one that can inspire like she does! She can hold an audience in the palm of her hands.

She has certainly known the heat of battle and still, after going through the ringer with the impeachment, got elected as Senator in a state that she had never lived in.

I think we should not put her down but build her up.
Even if she is not your choice,let's not bash our own. There is enough bashing of Democrats being done by the Republicans. They don't need our help yet again.

However, IMO,we are truly fooling ourselves to believe that any Democrat will ever get elected as long as our votes are not counted.

[mtnsnake]

67. Nice post, goclark! She does light them up, doesn't she.

I'm glad someone else has seen the same potential in this lady.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

25. Uhh...forget electability?

Heck if we're going to forget electability I nominate my Pet Rock for 2008. LOL

My 3rd cousin told me her aunt (my second cousin and an evangilical christian shudder) believed that Kerry was the Anti-Christ. (hey I can't pick my relations they've been bequeathed to me). These people believe Hillary is Satan him/her self. You think the RR was united and out in force this time? Just try running a Northern Librul named Hillary...2004 would be remembered as a pleasant walk in the park.

[Goldmund]

27. Again, electability... Can we forget about it just for the purposes of...

...this discussion?

And I'm sick of "electability" anyway. Almost as if the wingnutshave a say in who we pick as our nominee.

Fuck electability.

And definitely fuck it for the purposes of this discusssion.

[mtnsnake]

29. Exactly. If electability is the bottom line then let's run Michael Jordan.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

31. Sorry, was trying to inject a little humor

my bad.

And my second paragraph stated my reason for "why not Hillary".

No need to get hot...it's really not easy to seperate the "electability" factor from any discussion about potential candidates don't you think?

[Goldmund]

34. You misread, my friend

I didn't get hot. Not at you, at least. But when I think about "electability", my blood pressure rises. I'm sick of catering to the wingnuts, and I'm sick of losing with "electable" candidates -- while people keep repeating this "electable" mantra after every loss. And I feel really shitty after losing, after having compromised so much of my beliefs to support Kerry, or Gore, and I'm sick of supporting all these fucking lamos.

But again, my annoyance wasn't directed at you. If I wasn't eloquent enough to express that, I apologize.

The reason I said "forget electability" is because I think that talk of electability needs to come in only after we've narrowed our choices to people that we can live with without compromising too much. THEN we can talk about electability.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

37. Thanks

I just "read you" wrong that time.

And I can empathize with your frustration.

:toast:

[rniel]

30. We're tired of losing

don't want to take a gamble on someone that probably would stand no chance to win.

[mtnsnake]

32. Why would she stand no chance?

Because she's brilliant?

Because she's tough?

Because she doesn't let anyone push her around?

Because she attracts voters like flies in NY?

[RafterMan]

33. Her margin in NY was slimmer than Gore's

and she was running against a nobody.

[mtnsnake]

39. Good point, but she did pretty well herself for a first-time runner.

[Ctrl_Alt_Del]

52. We're not losing New York... ever

Attracting voters there does us no good.

We need to attract voters in Ohio, Florida and Iowa. Hillary is just too polarizing to get the job done where we need it.

[mtnsnake]

66. That wasn't my point at all.

When Hillary came through my area a couple times, not only did she inspire almost all the usual Democrats, but she attracted many voters who would never look at a Democrat before.

Interestingly, she also had the full support of many of the Democrats who did not like Bill all that much.

Everywhere she went people fell in love with her.

[formernaderite]

35. Since I never "adored" Kerry, I find no paradox in disliking Hillary....

...I'm sure there are many other female democrats who could run for President having had executive experience without the benefit of their husband having run for office first. I guess I'm saying, there are plenty of democratic women who did it on their own. Hillary is also too politically expedient for me... no soul or core value.

[JNelson6563]

40. I don't adore Kerry or Hillary

I ssay it's time for the Clintonistas to go.

Buh-bye now. :hi:

Julie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Who Adored Kerry?

I respected him as did some DUers but all DUers supported him because he was the vehicle we had to ride to defeat Bush*...

My problem with Hillary was the same I had with Kerry...

I didn't think he could win....

[Goldmund]

45. Archive search is down

but I'm sure you remember one of those "Describe Kerry in one word" threads...

[Zero Gravitas]

42. She would make an excellent President

but she is too divisive to be a good candidate IMO. But who knows if Bush makes half the mess I think he will in the next four years (and assuming we have elections in 08 and they a free & fair) we could run a ham sandwich and still win big.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Look At How Bad Thing Were Messed Up In 76 And We Won In A Squeaker (nt)

[bemildred]

44. She supervised the trashing of national health care in the nineties.

That was more than enough of her "help" for me,

[deminflorida]

47. She can run if she wants...But she'll never get past South

Carolina. Clark gets in early, intrenches in Iowa and that's it. She has no National Security Experience. Well she has a little, she supported the Iraq War. The biggest disaster of the 21st century.

Look we've already been through enough pain as Democrats supporting a I voted for the War, but now I'm against it character. She is rife with issues to attack, but it's her doner's money, so let them flush it down the drain.

Drug-Man Rush needs to pay his legal fees, so I'm sure he'll be sure to support her campaign as well.

[LionInWinter]

48. She's a Senator ...

and Senators just don't get elected to the White House unless they have some other job later (LBJ, Nixon). They have too many votes in their past to explain (i.e. vote for a bill in conference & vote against it later) which can be spun any way the opponent wishes.

We need to concentrate on getting a Governor with a good track record at the top of the ticket next time (Richardson, Warner, etc).

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. But for 'electability', I'd be THRILLED with Hillary as a candidate.

I think Sen. Clinton is one of the most intelligent, hard-nosed and principled people around.

[MsAnthropy]

51. Cuz she's a magnet for right wing conspiracies

The Clinton bashing we had to listen to for eight years might be only a smidgen of what they'd pile on Hillary. The only person they hated more than Bill was Hillary.

[blackangrydem]

53. Colin Powell vs Hillary in '06?

There is speculation afoot.

[cyr330]

54. You wanna know

Because she's turned into a right-wing hawk who gave Shrub* the authority to wage war on Iraq without congressional oversight. Furthermore, she signed on for the Patriot Act. . . . Let's see. . . Need I say more?

[Goldmund]

58. Which is why I phrased my question as...

..."how can one like Kerry and dislike Hillary?".

[cyr330]

64. Good Point

I didn't particularly like Kerry; I felt the same way about him as I do about HIllary today. Nonetheless, Kerry WAS the Democratic candidate (I did NOT vote for him in the primaries), so I was enthusiastically for Kerry by default. Should Hillary win the nomination, I would do the same, but I certainly hope to god that that does not happen.

[CityDem]

56. She is a warmonger

Aside from being very divisive, she is a warmonger who supported the occupation of Iraq. Need I go further.

[Goldmund]

59. So did Kerry.

[Lorien]

61. DLC n/t

[quaker bill]

62. I will be blunt, Hillary is a woman

Personally I have no problem with powerful women and would have no problem voting for a woman candidate for President. However the country I live in does not agree with me on many things.

A brief and realistic look at this nation, a nation that will elect a war criminal, says all you need to know. There is no chance a woman, any woman, would be elected president in 2008.

While democrats do seem to enjoy shooting themselves in the foot from time to time, I see no excuse to plan for it.

[KnowerOfLogic]

70. Glad to see you support the dem party standing on principle. That's

always a good way to attract people into the party.

[woodleydem]

65. Hillary wouldn't solve any of the problems Kerry had

The issue isn't whether Hillary is qualified or smart enough. Being smarter than the other guy doesn't mean you are going to win, as we all witnessed on Nov. 2nd. The problem with John Kerry was that he got his ass kicked in the rural, socially conservative areas of the country. The base of party turned out, maybe more for hatred of Bush than for Kerry. But does anybody honestly believe Hillary will do any better with these rural voters than Kerry did? Democrats will probably never win this particular demographic, but we can, and need to better with the social conservatives. Hillary would do a fantastic job of turning out the Democratic base, but she won't do any better in rural America. The Republicans main attack lines on Kerry were that he was a liberal senator from a northeastern state who was out of touch with people in the Midwest and South. They will still have that attack at their disposal with Hillary. Furthermore, senators simply don't make good candidates for president. You can have all the ideas in the world, but in the Senate where power is dilluted amongst 100 individuals, you aren't going to be able to display your executive decision-making ability. We have talent in the statehouses. If a guy like Mark Warner were to get the nomination, he takes away some of the Republicans most effective attack strategies. They can't say he is liberal, because he is from a solidly red state. As a governor, Warner can also point to specific programs or policies he implemented within his state.

[mvd]

68. Well, I think in their hearts, the Clinton advisors working for..

Kerry wanted Hillary in 2008. Not that they threw the election, but I don't think their hearts were in it for Kerry. I think we should wait and see. If the public is still really divided, I'm not sure Hillary would be a good choice. She may have Kerry's problem of a perceived liberal running to the center. That way, progressives get turned off by centrist positions, and moderates don't buy it.

[goclark]

71. If we ran Jesus for President in 08

he would not win as a Democrat!

Why, because Democrats allow Republicans to define them. We pick our own apart and then wonder why our candidates don't win.

GWB is stupid, AWOL,rich,a neocon, fakes his religion, a war president and, if we are to believe the Swift Boat Liars and the BBV Machines, is far better qualified to be president than any one of the Democrats.

Dean? They chewed him up and spit him out for us before he left Iowa.
I loved Dean, but they defined him as a screamer and in two days he was gone from the scene.

Dennis? -Love him too,Republicans didn't give him the time of day. Democrats against the war really loved him. He still would not have won.

Graham - Outstanding! We let them tell us that he was a loser.
He is a nice guy and according to the Republicans, who we listen closely to, they want someone who shots from the hip.

Carol Mosley Braun - Woman and therefore defined as "weak and dumb."

Wesley Clark = my favorite, was defined as a Republican. We also defined him as such. Could he have beat Rove and Company - NO!

Don't forget that Kerry was winning and wonderful before the BBV VooDoo Machines did their dirty work.

It's not about our candidates folks, Kerry was winning!

Now that the Republicans are in power, they have complete control over voting, civil rights and on and on.

We either get the FRAUD straight now or kiss every other election goodbye.

[mvd]

75. As I said, we have to work on making our own image

I think we ate each other up in those primaries.

[goclark]

76. Excellent Point

Thanks for kicking my memory in gear.
When all those candidates started out Al, Kerry, Graham etc.
it just seemed so crazy.

But, by the end they all beat each other up and we really got to see them as a group of excellent Democrats.

I still liked the idea going into the election. It gave lots of Democratic stars that could campaign for/with Kerry.

Now when I look back on it, I'm not sure if that was such a grand idea.

The Democrats were beating each other up and the camps were so divided. Maybe that whole process was not in our best interest.

GWB ran against GWB. He had no one to disagree with a word that he said from his own party.

We had a cat fight from day one.

[KnowerOfLogic]

69. She voted for the Iraq war and she's DNC/DLC to the core. So NO WAY!

[sendero]

73. I'm....

... tired of losing. Hillary simply cannot win, she is even more reviled by a large portion of the population than Bill is.

She is not charismatic, is not charming, doesn't have good political instincts, made a total botch of her vaunted health-care plan - just exactly makes anyone think she would be a good candidate?

She would do well in NY and a few other places and that is IT. That won't get you to the white house.

[LimpingLib]

74. REASON#1 She will continue or horrid foreign policy.

She is a complete follower of our foreign policy elite.

That equals more of the same right wing policys that caused the death , destruction , underdevelopment , etc. that has marked the 20th century and limited human potential.

We can keep spending all our resources on endless war with $500 billion per year in military and homeland defense spending. Add that to the $750 billion per year in corperate welfare & loopholes and $350 billion and growing interet payments.

We can either grow as a species or have a world of 80% poverty. Every able body should be working. Work creates wealth. Unemployment creates hunger. Unemployment and war causes massive profit potential for the elite and slave wages conditions.

Hillary supports the latter.