Howard Dean IS the Leader of the Democratic party

[DianeG5385]

This is my personal opinion, But I believe it is obvious to all us Democrats that he is the only voice we hear articulating the issues we care about. He's also the only Democratic voice I hear speaking out about OUR issues. Other than Dean, (and Kerry and Clark if they can be heard above the media noise machine) there is a wilderness of silence and a capitulation in the face of brutal domination tactics exhibited by the right-wing party who now controls OUR government and gloats about it, changing the "rules" as they go!

Dean seems to be the only Democrat without fear, proud of the issues we espouse and seek to preserve. As far as I am concerned, there should be no cow-towing to the repubs to "appear" to have a semblance of power which the Dems in congress do NOT NOW HAVE.

We, as a party, have generally compromised and considered the concerns of the minority when we were in control. THEY consider this a weakness and NEVER compromised on their core issues which basically consisted of manipulating the ill-informed, creating "false" issues, such as abortion and gay marriage and inflaming these people based on lies, even though that was NOT what they believed in themselves as they are users. They sought the lowest common denominator and won. Now, their true colors will show and this is our chance to "OUT" them.

That is why I believe that Dean is our one true voice. I supported Clark wholeheartedly in the primaries and when Kerry became the nominee, I supported him and despite what you might want to think, he ran his ASS off for us, so for us to turn on him because we didn't win given this RW onslaught betrays us as faithless. THAT is what the GOP has always had over us, and they have a 30 year advantage on us..

Their base has an unquestioning faith which is frightening but works like a house on fire to get the base out, even as they vote against their own self-interest. What the base wants and believes and what their leaders actually DO have no connection to each other. In the meantime, our 20 year olds are dying, having their legs blown off or murdering innocent Iraqis and mark my words, we will pay the price of George's folly in so many ways in the years to come.

I suggest that we have no option than to make a little noise, be obstructionist, we need to have a little Howard Dean Yell! We need to try to get our voice heard on as many legitimate media outlets as possible by being "troublesome" (the media like that), because making noise right now IS our only option. I don't want to hear that we need to "move to the center" and "open our doors to the faith based community", hey! we are already there! We leave no one behind and we don't ask for credentials or loyalty "oaths"!

In conclusion, Dean is the only option for our party, and this must be a grass-roots movement because the Democratic leadership has failed us and failed the nation by capitulating to the right-wing bullies. THAT is how democracies are lost, when fear replaces integrity.

[WI_DEM]

1. He is one of the leaders of the progressive wing of the party

and a very important and substantial leader. I could support him for DNC Chair or president, which ever is his choice.

[DianeG5385]

5. I'm there. He is a man of character

He's a fiscal conservative which, is a no brainer these days given the profilgate spending by the GOP, but he understands that we have the "issues" on our side ( I refuse to use that stupid "values" phrase, shockingly, it is the latest corporate HR "training program..."corporate values" now, is THAT an oxymoron or what!) We have alot against us, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, which I'm certain was the GOP mantra when they were out of power.

[IronLionZion]

10. hey, that's the DEMOCRATIC wing!

I support him for DNC chair or president...because whatver makes KKKarl Rove scared is what we need. And Rove pissed his pants when Dean was front-runner.

I'm certain a Dean/Clark or Dean/Graham ticket would have been a popular and electoral landslide in our favor.

[madfloridian]

2. Wow! Great one. Give me that yell, too, Diane.

:toast: :toast:

A :toast: to Diane and a Happy 56th birthday to Howard Dean.

[DianeG5385]

7. EEEEYAHHHH! Truth Will OUT!

Eventually they will be exposed for what they are and how they have destroyed the Best of this country for their personal (Bush family and friends)power lust. I think we as Americans were unprepared to deal with an internal threat. We trusted the "system" but the "system failed us egregiously.

[DaveinMD]

3. Hogwash

Dean is one of many good Democrats. He is not the only leader in our party. There are many great Democrats. And it really bothers me how people here disparage every other good Democrat to prop up Howard Dean.

[madfloridian]

4. Then why are we now a one-party country?

How did that happen? Doesn't seem like agreeing with them worked. Sorry.

[Julien Sorel]

6. A one party country?

You people have completely gone off the deep end, you know.

[DaveinMD]

9. we lost an election

we didn't agree with them. Kerry ran against the war in the general election. His economic proposals were very different than Bush. We are not a one party country. One party is in control. But we still hold 45 percent of senate seats, and 47 percent of house seats. We gained 50 state legislative seats this election. We are not a one party country.

[madfloridian]

14. Dave, when they have all the branches....they have the power.

Dear friend, they are in control.

[DaveinMD]

22. they are in control

that doesn't mean its a one power country. Utah is a home party state. Dems don't have a chance in that state. We lost a very close election.

[Maeven8pol]

12. I'm not DISPARAGING, Dave.....

It's a question of TIMING and what the Dems need right now.

The fact is, Howard Dean can REACH MORE PEOPLE than Vilsack or any of the other candidates for DNC Chair. Dean is someone whose message people respond to. They HEAR Howard Dean.

We need a DNC Chair with STAR QUALITY right now, not someone who will do BUSINESS AS USUAL. Howard Dean is the only candidate on the horizon who will INVIGORATE the Democratic Party.

[DaveinMD]

20. maybe you aren't

but many are. I knew Governor Dean before most here even knew he existed. I worked for the Vermont Democrat Party in 92. My wife was the head of UVM College Democrats. He was a good governor and I like him. I think its better for him to be outside the party structure. That way he can speak out when things need to happen. He can also raise money for candidates the party doesn't think can win. This is valuable.

[DianeG5385]

28. Yes! And the sooner the better!

This time, if the DLC "predictables" can't get behind DEAN, we need to form our own "Think Tank" as somehow that carries validity on "TV".
We must all become "Senior Fellows" of the Economic Values for Democracy" (fake just an example of what the other guys do) "think tank" (isn't that just the weirdest concept???) We must ALL wear Jerry Garcia art ties when we appear on Lou Dobbs or Larry King et al, bow ties are SO outre. We will be articulate and forceful and noisy advocates for our issues!

[DianeG5385]

16. Dean is the VOICE.

The other Democratic leaders are acting like bureaucrats, ready to "make a deal" to keep their meager illusory power in place. They are SOOOO eager to cut deals with the PUBS they are salivating. I Don't think they are working for US when they vote against our wishes. Note, this is why we are perceived as lacking conviction.

As far as I can see, and I did indicate it was MY personal opinion, not a statement on the state of the world, HE, DEAN is the only guy out there ACTIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY working for US!

[DianeG5385]

18. Oh Wait! My Bad, Dennis Kucinich

A VERY good man as well.

[sangh0]

132. Yes, Dean can contribute the most by being a VOICE

not a party leader. Being a party leader immediately compromises a politician, because they are then obligated to represent the positions of the entire party, not just the positions *HE* agrees with.

Being a party leader would, IMO, make it easier for the party to co-opt Dean's passion without having to make any significant changes in the party. Better for Dean to stand at a distance and push the party to reform.

[mandyky]

8. Howard Dean is _MY_ leader

To heck with the party and the naysayers, esp. if they wanna be GOP Lite. I'd just as soon HD concentrate on DFA rather than become DNC chair. I'd rather he run for Prez in 08 than be head of the DNC.

[Cha]

23. Yeah, this is a.. choose your own

leader kind of a Country now..cause the fascist bush sure ain't my pres.. anymore than he's been for the last four years. Let the lemmings have him.

I want someone who is strong, brave and has a vision for America that includes the People and the Environment.

Someone has to step up for the Democrats..we need an opposition party like they have in England.

If these guys in power were just republicans..I say there would be a chance for "coming together" but no way no how am I joining the neo fascists.

[janx]

Ask madfloridian about the Dean/DNC chair situation.

I don't think he wants to do that.

[Voltaire]

11. Diane. . .God Bless You

I agree with everthing you wrote. Dean is our leader. He is the only one willing.

[DaveinMD]

13. hardly

many are willing. The Dean folks just refuse to listen to anyone else.

[madfloridian]

17. Who is speaking out? Make me a list, Dear Dave.

?

[DaveinMD]

21. Clark and Gore to start

[mandyky]

30. Clark is not a Democrat (in my book)

which is fine, on it's face,(I'm all for Independents) but he was the Clintons' answer to anybody but Dean. I like what Clark has to say, and I listen to him, but Dean is head and shoulders above him in my eyes.

Gore has said a lot over the past year, but he can't run for prez again due to the media assassination he got in 00. Gore only spoke out after Dean did.

Whether people like it or not, we Dean folk will be measuring Democrats up to Howard Dean, probably for the rest of our lives. People who dislike Dean don't understand our loyalty, I guess, and that's okie dokie, but we do not like being demeaned for it either.

[DaveinMD]

34. what I take issue with

is the desire of some Dean supporters to insult every other Democrat to prop their guy up. Clark is a very good Democrat. We are going to have some great candidates. I don't know who I'll support yet.

I want to say this about Dean. I knew him before most here ever heard his name. I worked for the Vermont Democratic Party in 92 and my wife was head of College Dems at UVM. He was a good governor who did a great job on health care and the environment. But he is not the only good Democrat.

[American Tragedy]

49. well, it doesn't help when you say someone else's guy isn't a Democrat

[Leilani]

130. NOT

how to make friends & influence people...

[Larkspur]

146. Correction, Gore was speaking against the Iraq war before Dean was

I supported Dean and Gore, but Gore's Sep 23, 2002 speech at the Commonwealth Club on the Iraq War and Bush's Pre-emptive strike policy was brilliant and helped give legitamacy to the anti-Iraq war movement. It also helped Dean articulate his feelings against the war too.

[ohioan]

150. Dean didn't start speaking against the war until long after the resolution

[Carolab]

182. Gore doesn't fire people up

Dean positively jump starts them and they can't let go of him. It's a love affair that no one ever really had with Gore or even with Clark. I like Wes. I respect Gore.

I love Dean. Dean is REAL. He is HONEST. He cares about THE COUNTRY. And he tells it LIKE IT IS.

[Guaranteed]

37. Gore is with Dean. nt

[Voltaire]

24. So who would be speaking

I am a little hard of hearing in my middle age....but I haven't heard anyone. Kerry?

[mandyky]

33. Yeah, John (I have your back) Kerry who conceded

less than 12 hours after Edwards said they'd count every vote. Spineless Democrats make me almost as sick as the bush administration.

[zulchzulu]

65. Please help us on how to count air and make it a provable vote

I love the occult.

[ohioan]

151. You obviously aren't listening . . .

Kerry gave a stemwinder attacking Republican fiscal irresponsibility - of course, the Kerry attackers claim that it didn't matter.

Let's get real - to some people here, NOTHING that Kerry does will be good enough since he's not Howard Dean.

Mr. KERRY. Mr. President, elections obviously are an extraordinary opportunity to listen to the American people, to learn, to debate, and to test ourselves and our ideas. This election was no different. It was an honor to live out a great debate in our country in which we talked about the kind of nation we want to live in and what our responsibilities are to each other and, of course, to future generations.

Whatever lessons you learn about a campaign--and there were many--at the core, obviously, are issues. Those issues did not go away on November 3 no matter the results.

We are here in the Congress with fundamental responsibilities to continue the fight for those things Americans care about and that matter to the long-term health and welfare of our Nation. I intend to continue to fight on those issues as hard as I did in crisscrossing this great country of ours.

At the heart of every issue I heard about from Oregon to Florida, Iowa to Ohio, and every State in between, whether it was affordable health care or good jobs or taxes or energy independence or America's role in the world and her respect, above all, Americans continually expressed their understanding that our ability to meet all of those needs rises and falls with our economy, with the strength of our economy, the quality of the jobs that we create in America, the kind of investments we make in the lives of our children, and the quality of the jobs of the future. All of those choices ride on the fiscal choices we make as a government.

Those are lessons we have learned the hard way over the course of the last century or more. That is why I believe, as do others who have spoken in this Chamber during the course of the day, we need to deal candidly and immediately with some sense of urgency with the debt and the debt limit of the United States. We have a fundamental responsibility to restore fiscal responsibility rather than merely voting again to raise the debt limit as if there is an endless credit card at the expense of the American people.

Americans struggle to balance their budget. I heard about those struggles all across this country, people who can barely afford to pay their bills, people who have seen their health care go up 64 percent, their tuition go up 35 percent, gasoline prices go up, cost of purchasing drugs go up, and their wages are down. The American people are struggling to be able to pay their bills. Congress is not exhibiting the similar kind of struggle or even effort. The American people sit down at their kitchen tables and they try to play by the rules every single day. Congress seems ready to write new rules whenever it wants. We used to understand the responsibility to future generations. In the 1980s, Washington dug an enormous hole, a deficit hole, and it became apparent to all on Wall Street and all of the corridors of fiscal responsibility and power in America that we needed to make a better set of choices. So we made tough choices in the 1990s to dig ourselves out of that hole. And now here we are again, in 2004, back again with a new hole, deeper, with more grave consequences than at any time in American history. Neither Congress nor the administration has been willing to face up to that reality, even as the consequences grow and stare us in the face.

Let me put that in perspective. In less than 4 years, a 10-year $5.6 billion budget surplus was turned into a $2.4 trillion debt. That is the worst fiscal turnaround in our Nation's entire history. Since raising the debt limit last year, the Government has run up more debt than all of the Presidents from George Washington through Ronald Reagan. In fact, almost three-quarters of the entire debt of the United States of America in our 228-year history has been run up during the course of the last three Republican administrations. Taxpayers have been left with a record deficit in both of the past 2 years, up to a record $413 billion for 2004. According to the Congressional Budget Office, we are going to run $300 billion deficits every single year for the next decade, and that is without including one of the President's new proposals made in the course of the last year of the campaign. So the United States is operating a borrow-and-spend Government, continuously stretched by demands for more tax cuts and by more spending. When there is not enough money to pay for those choices, which are voluntary choices, they simply go into debt and put the tab on the national credit card and they send the bill to our kids. It is an economic policy of borrow and spend, and it simply cannot be sustained. After the new debt limit passes this week, and it will, the administration will have added $2.1 trillion to the debt limit in less than 4 years. That amounts to more than $7,200 for every man, woman, and child in the United States, and all of that money must eventually be paid back, or at least partially paid back in significant amounts with interest.

The interest payments alone are staggering and depriving us of choices that we ought to be making for long-term investment in our country itself. The Government may spend it today, but Americans ultimately will pay the bill. That means a child born today is going to enter the world owing more than $17,000 when our last and expected debt is totaled up. As everybody knows, our children grow up with a set of expectations about their future that are now impacted extraordinarily by the choices we are making on their behalf, and whether it is a choice to buy a car or home or save for their own families or save for college, all of those are going to be impacted negatively by the unwillingness of Congress to be responsible at that moment. Their ability to save will be eaten away by their share of what this Government is going to have already spent in debt. This could be called a birth tax, a birth tax that is dumped on the back of every American child unwillingly.

I think, and I think most persons believe, to saddle our children with this debt is wrong. As Republican Pete Peterson said, the ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children. And I think about that concept as we are about to slip our own kids and grandkids a check for our free lunch. I say we are failing the moral test. That is Republican Pete Peterson speaking.

And it is not just the mountain of debt that is the problem. It is also where the money comes from. To pay our bills, America now goes cup in hand to nations such as China, Korea, Taiwan, and the Caribbean banking centers. China now holds $172 billion of our Nation's debt. Korea holds $63 billion, Taiwan holds $56 billion, and the Caribbean banking centers hold more than $191 billion. Since 2001 alone, the share of U.S. Treasury debt held by foreigners has risen to 42 percent from 30 percent. It is increasingly dangerous for so much of our Government and our standard of living to be dependent on foreign capital. If foreign investors were to suddenly decide to stop financing our borrowing habits or to see weakness in the American economy, it could have a spiraling impact on our own economy, international currency markets would be shaken, and our economy would quickly follow. If those investors began to withdraw their capital, our financial markets would plummet and interest rates would climb. That will make everything American families need, from a home, to a car, to appliances, to education, all of it, more expensive. It will make it harder for businesses, and especially small businesses, to raise capital and invest in jobs and economic growth.

What is more, with so much of our debt owned by other nations, U.S. diplomatic and trade negotiators face increased difficulty in making demands of major creditor nations. How do you go to a country that holds so much of your debt while your economy is closely linked to theirs and start to make the powerful argument about nuclear proliferation or human rights, democratization, and other issues that are of importance and great consequence to our country?

It is only a matter of time before America learns the hard way that debt is more than a financial liability, it weakens America's security, and it weakens our diplomacy and our trade. Our budget mismanagement, the negligence of borrow-and-spend policies, leaves us vulnerable to the priorities of foreign creditors. And that is unhealthy and irresponsible.

So what do we do about that? Well, we can argue over the cause of the problem, of what made this borrow-and-spend institutionalized approach the reality it is today. But I think it is more important for us now to try to find a solution; that is, to work to find economic policies that are going to create opportunity and demand responsibility.

When I first came to the Senate in 1985, the Federal deficit was soaring, out of control, just like it is today. And in the 1980s, the National Debt Clock in New York City became a symbol for a Federal deficit and a debt that were out of control. Back then, many Democrats thought we could continue to spend and to spend without having to pay the bill. And back then most Republicans claimed that if you gave huge tax cuts to the wealthy, they were somehow going to pay for themselves.
At the same time, we were lucky to have leadership from a group of reformers on both sides of the aisle, people such as Republican Senators Warren Rudman and Phil Gramm, and Senator FRITZ HOLLINGS on the Democratic side. They pushed for a deficit reduction plan that had real teeth in it. They continued that fight until it was finally won.

The choice was tough. Fiscal sanity was won by exactly one vote in both Houses of Congress. But finally, in 1997, we finished the job by passing a historic bipartisan balanced budget agreement. It not only balanced the budget for the first time since 1969, but it extended the life of Medicare, it expanded health care for children, and it cut taxes for middle class Americans.

Four years ago, the numbers on the National Debt Clock were spinning backwards. Today, in New York, the National Debt Clock has now been turned back on, and the numbers are rising faster than you and I can follow. As Senator Hollings retires from the Senate, I think we need more of that kind of effort that was offered in the 1980s and 1990s in order to find the common ground that he and Senator Rudman brought to this debate almost 20 years ago. It is time again to follow that example.

There are a lot of ideas out there. We can end tax cuts that do not create jobs but do create enormous debt. We can find incremental savings by streamlining Government itself. We can reduce or eliminate programs that we simply cannot afford. We could establish a commission to independently evaluate and eliminate corporate subsidies. But more important than any individual proposal is that the White House and Congress make a fundamental commitment to end this policy of borrow-and-spend economics.

We need to make economic opportunity and fiscal responsibility a common goal. And we have to live by some rules, rules such as a budget that requires us to pay for what we spend, rules that give the debt limit meaning. Today the debt limit is fanciful. It is just a number on a piece of paper, and Congress raises it any time it wishes. It is no limit at all. I believe we can do these other things. We could make these other choices if we set clear national priorities, if we make the tough decisions, not just about the programs of others but about our own proposals.

We have to do this because it is critical to any credible economic plan and to the creation of new, good-paying jobs. An America that ignores our national debt and the deficit will be an America that invites inflation and recession. An America that pays for new initiatives and follows real budget rules will be an America that creates a new era of prosperity and opportunity for all Americans. We know how to do this. We did it in the 1990s. Now it is time to return our Government to that fiscal responsibility and to invest in the future and to create new jobs in America that pay more than the jobs we are losing overseas, and to raise the standard of living for American workers.

I will not vote for a borrow-and-spend economic policy when there are better alternatives.

Over the last year, in the cities and towns that I was privileged to travel in all across our Nation, I have been reminded again and again of the hopes of the American people and of families that play by the rules and do what is right for their kids and try to do what is right for aging parents and for a Social Security system and a Medicare system that are under increasing pressure and strain.

Those Americans are faced with tough choices every day. They expect us, similarly, to make tough choices. I think Washington ought to live by the same rules they do. None of these choices are about numbers and about dollars and statistics alone. They are really about the responsibility we have as one generation to another and, most importantly, the responsibility we have vested in us as Members of the Congress and the need to try to work together and find the unity, as we did in the 1990s, to come up with a solution that acts in the interests of Americans and that does not avoid that fundamental responsibility.

[Cha]

25. You're Wrong..I listen to Kerry, Edwards,

Clark, Gore, ..anyone else?

[Julien Sorel]

15. Beyond leader.

He is the savior, the one to lead this party, Moses-like, out of the wilderness, even if those corrupt losers of the DLC refuse to allow him to see the promised land himself.

[Guaranteed]

19. Totally agreed. Unfortunately, the Dems are bitching out once

again.

Some things never change- like the losing.

[Cha]

26. I think Dean is fine as head of the

DFA..we need him there. I hope Dean and his vision will emerge on a parallel plane with the DNC.

[Guaranteed]

27. If they don't give him the chairmanship- if they torpedo him once again-

I think he should just form another party. They'll never get it.

It's for the good of the country.

[DianeG5385]

31. Wait a second! Aren't WE the Democratic party?

Why the heck are We going to let the DLC decide the leader of our party AGAIN? Anybody got a way we can make our voice heard? Maybe it's our current DLC leaders who are the problem.

[Guaranteed]

35. Well, they ARE the problem, but how are we supposed to get

rid of them?

They're still there making the dumbass decisions so we'll lose more.

[DaveinMD]

39. those who vote on this

are the Democratic Committe men and women. These people are elected by state committees. These people have worked their entire lives for the party and should not be disparaged.

[whirlygigspin]

36. Leiberman now, Leiberman forever!

sarcasm off

[ohioan]

38. It's kind of hard for the guy who couldn't even beat the other Democrats

in the primaries to be seen as the leader of the entire party.

Please - the cult of personality and slavish hero worship of Dean is one of the reasons he got his butt kicked in the primaries. His supporters did more to drive away voters than Dean himself did.

[madfloridian]

40. That is DLC spin. That is the what the party said.

You need to study up on the primaries a whole lot. Do some googling, do some reading.

The worship thing is very old now, getting tiresome.

[Cha]

57. Yeah, that poster needs

to keep up. That fascist media drivel is so stale now.

[fujiyama]

121. That would be a stupid move

Third parties based on personalities collapse. It'd be like Perot and the reform party.

Fortunately Dean is smarter than that. If he can't get the DNC chair, I think a continued emphasis and building of DFA is a good way to go. That way he can make the DLC irrelevant.

[Guaranteed]

123. Based on personalities? These are REAL PRINCIPLES that we're

fighting for here, and that the DLC refuses to defend.

[fujiyama]

125. My point is simple

Dean knows that starting a party would make no sense. Many third parties emerged over time but they all collapsed.

The DLC is just one wing of the party. The key is neutralizing it. Unfortunately this election made it even more unlikely for it to happen, because, right or wrong, they view this as confirmation that the nation has shifted to the right.

I like Dean and would favor him for DNC Chair. I think we need someone that is a fighter - that is forceful, aggressive, and is able to get a clear message across. Dean would be one such person.

My hope is that through a major grass roots effort, DFA can be another wing/organization WITHIN the party that can eventually neutralize the DLC. Killing it is very unlikely, as we will always have conservative dems from certain states, but we must find a way to lessen their leaderhsip role.

[lojasmo]

29. Howard is my political leader

There are plenty of good legislators. We are lucky to have Mark Dayton working for us in Minnesota. Massechusetts' senior senator is a good man, Barbara Boxer rocks, Carol Mosely Braun, Dennis Kucinich....The list goes on.

Dean's message resonates with me. He, like Paul Wellstone, reminds me of what politicians can be.

[ohioan]

41. That's great. And I respect your opinion

But the fact that you want Dean to be YOUR political leader does not mean that every other Democrat feels that way or that it is a given that Dean is the leader of the party.

In fact, I can't see anything he's done since dropping out of the primaries last winter that sets him apart from any of the other Democratic candidates who also dropped out of the primaries. What has he done differently that entitles him to don the mantle of THE leader of the Democratic Party?

[madfloridian]

45. You are joking. Right?

I can tell by the twinkle in your eye.

[Bush was AWOL]

74. He screams the loudest

some identify with that apparently.

[Eloriel]

100. Really? What other dropped-out candidate

helped identify, promote, campaign for and fund through DFA a stable of over 1000 BRAND NEW DEM CANDIDATES at all levels (from very local to Congressional) around the country?

What other dropped-out candidate started an organization (DFA) that teamed up with other activist grassroots organizations for massive GOTV activities around the country?

What other dropped-out candidate campaigned his heart out, went on any and every national and local/regional media to stump for Kerry, the very man who was at the center of the DNC/DLC torpedoing of Dean's candidacy?

Perhaps you should keep up with the news a little better, eh? Madfloridian's our official Dean reporter at DU -- check out her posts every chance you get.

[lojasmo]

143. He's the leader of MY party. That's all I said. MY leader

just because you haven't seen what sets him apart, doesn't mean that there's not anything that sets him apart.

[DaveinMD]

42. I miss Paul Wellstone so much

He was such a great guy. He cared for people more than any politician I have ever met and was not stuck up one bit.

By the way, he voted for the war. Did people here forgive him for that or was he a traitor too.

[JohnKleeb]

47. Wellstone voted against that actually

[DaveinMD]

51. are you sure

I'd heard some criticism of him for that vote. I could be mistaken.

[ohioan]

53. Wellstone voted no

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

[JohnKleeb]

96. yeah I am positive man

he is given a pass on the patriot act though unlike that godawful Kerry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. Wellstone Voted For DOMA

No politician should be judged by their worst vote...


Even the most principled politician can't afford to ignore the folks back home and expect to be reelected...

[fujiyama]

122. The most fascinating two votes

on DOMA were Bob Kerrey of Nebraska and Chuck Robb of VA - Both voted against it. Fortunately Kerry had the sense to vote against it.

Of course, Chuck Robb also lost in '00 and my guess is that Kerrey may have already know he was leaving the senate by that time. I remember Allen saying something about having a person that represents the interests of Virginians, compared to those in Vermont. I hope we can take Allen out in '06.

[NYCGirl]

32. Great post. No more DNC for me, a lifelong Democrat. DFA all the way!

:yourock:

[DianeG5385]

43. If the DNC and the DLC don't fit us anymore

we must seek a leader such as DEAN (DFA)who speaks for us. The responses to this thread indicate that there is alot of conflict in the direction of our party. I care less about "winning" by being faux GOP, which is a losing proposition in any case, than by standing our ground and winning on principle. Principle trumps capitulation every time. So why do we always have to move towards THEM, when we should be standing up for our "CORE PRINCIPLES" which are a fair wage, health care and preserving social security and having a safe and sane foreign policy. These "CORE PRINCIPLES" are something to be proud of. Who, in their right mind would be against that?? The GOP will ridicule as is their wont will try to divide using meaningless wedge issues ( which we must rebut these intelligently) but we must stand our ground and respond forcefully. Otherwise, go be a PUB.

[greenohio]

184. If you don't care about winning then vote green...

During the campaign, all I heard was, "Don't vote for Nader...don't vote green, they can't win." Even though John Kerry:

Voted FOR NAFTA
Is against Gay Marriage
Voted AGAINST KYOTO

In the end, after harassment and lawsuits, Nader didn't make the ballot in Ohio and Kerry lost anyway.

The Democratic Party needs to run a southern or Midwest DLC New Democrat to win. If you can't stomach that, then you are going to lose anyway, you might as well vote green. But we can't keep letting the repukes run everything.

[dionysus]

44. spot on

spot on!

[zulchzulu]

46. Nope...

I agree with 90% of what you say, but I don't think that Howard is The Democratic leader now.

I think Dean is great...don't get me wrong.

However, some of your statements like "Dean is the only option for our party" are a tad over the top.

If this was a cheerleading rally, I could see that said to rouse up a bunch of noise in the auditorium.

But frankly, I find Howard just as divisive as Hillary...both Scorpios and a little too into thinking that the World revolves around them...

Flame me. Whhhhhatever...

[DianeG5385]

48. As I stated, based on what I have seen and I pay attention,

He is a man that the democratic rank and file will follow if not derailed by the so-called democratic leadership. I am beginning to question their credentials.

[DaveinMD]

50. the rank and file

voted for other people in primaries. So far, the evidence shows the Dean supporters will follow him anywhere but the rest of the rank and file won't.

[DianeG5385]

52. What's your option?

Kerry could be viable again, Clark generates excitement, but the man with the message is Dean.

[DaveinMD]

139. New leaders will emerge

at this time 4 years ago, most here had never heard of Howard Dean. The head of the DNC is not the leader of the party. Its a campaign job.

[ohioan]

140. Bingo!

It's a job heavy on management and oversight of organizational structure - it's not just a matter of acting as a spokesperson.

Dean is a talented politician, but he'd be a disaster as DNC chair in my opinion. He's too independent, unlikely to be a successful manager of a bureaucracy and would probably never be comfortable or happy in speaking for a larger and more diverse group than just for himself and his small band of admirers.

Dean people - be careful what you ask for. A Howard Dean DNC chairmanship could be the end of Howard Dean.

[Cha]

54. So don't.

Dean is out there speaking against the corporate media and building a case for Democracy against the Hypocracy..I look forward to what he has to say next.

[madfloridian]

55. One state, Iowa, small state...choose our nominee.

Want to talk about the details?

[DianeG5385]

56. I remember watching that caucus

Kerry won, but how he got there was a stunning testament to the machine. Talk about ignoring the will of the people!

[ohioan]

58. So, more people voting for Kerry than Dean is a testament to "machine"

But if Dean got more votes than Kerry, that would have been "the will of the people?"

Hmmm.

[JohnKleeb]

64. thats what I would expect

The thing that troubles me is that people now want to reform and perhaps rightfully so the way the early caucus-primaries are set up yet I remember back in the early winter last year, some people who backed candidiates who seemed like they were going to win, were even ok with dissolving of the primaries and just coronating candidiates, then things didn't go their way and well you know the rest. Ive read about what happened in Iowa, Kerry had a way with the Iowans that maybe some don't understand but he really would listen to them. I dont think dean is the only leader of this party, we have many good leaders in this party.

[ohioan]

75. True dat

[zulchzulu]

62. Wwwwwhat?

I WAS IN IOWA and saw it firsthand. I participated in a caucus as a monitor and saw it all happen.

Kerry won fair and square. Edwards did well too.

Dean spent $39 million dollars and lost with a guy (and campaign manager) named Joe Trippi who wasn't even returning phone calls to get advice. NOT RETURNING PHONE CALLS!

I would think that would SUCK. Don't you?

Can we get over this twisted horseshit about how Dean was "robbed" in Iowa?

Grow the (expletive delete) up.

[madfloridian]

72. Oops, watch the language, zulu.

Dean was not perfect but let's not go into all the twists and turns. Just know it happened.

[zulchzulu]

73. Pardon moi

My bad. I'm just frustrated with people that think Dean was ripped off in the Iowa caucus. I was there and witnessed it. Dean didn't do well. Period. That doesn't take away his message and the dedication of those that folowed him.

That was beautiful. I'm sorry it didn't work out for Dean and fans. But it didn't. OK?

Let's clear the slate and try again.

[madfloridian]

76. Our daughter was there.

I have stories to tell, but not now. It hurts too much.

I think what you are witnessing here at DU is the killing of a populist dream by the party establishment, AND the disillusionment that it caused to many.

I posted a poll done in SC by the SC DLC. It showed Dean head and shoulders above other in Dec. I never saw that poll. I happened on it by accident.

I am a realist. I realize that the party will not allow Dean a place at the table. Yet they will allow someone who was not a Democrat until after he declared his candidacy. Dean governed VT as a centrist, and he did a good job. Yet they could not tolerate the grassroots funding.

THIS is the problem, they do not want the people to have a say. Read my post in this forum about the DLC funding. They want to keep it that way....shut out the traditional democratic base, push the unions to the side....Dean threatened their power.

I am a realist. We stay with DFA, and they get our donations...only them. We are fortunate we can give sizable donations to the group and to the candidates....I feel thankful. I give no more to the DNC until they rid themselves of the DLC influence.

But, I forgot, the new beautiful building...they owe a lot of folks for that.

[zulchzulu]

80. I think and will support Dean a spot at the DLC table with all I can

Let it play out. I support the DFA too. But it would be foolish for Dean to not be allowed a spot at the table with the DLC.

If we need to get rid of Loserman, let's all pitch in and do it. He just doesn't have the influence he thinks he has.

[Rhiannon12866]

119. Yes, Dean lost. So did Gephardt, for those who supported him

Kerry won. I know that we all got behind him. That he, inexplicably, lost is a greater issue, since there is greater evidence of voter fraud than there was in 2000. It's despicable, but investigative journalist Greg Palast, who broke the story of the 2000 presidential election fraud, is continuing to monitor all of this.

http://www.GregPalast.com/

[Bush was AWOL]

77. The will of the people was with Kerry

I know many democrats and most of them supported Kerry, but the few that didn't supported Edwards. Dean blew it once he had to go toe to toe with Kerry. He couldn't take him. Kerry kicked his ass.

[KnowerOfLogic]

87. Kerry kicked Dean's ass? On what? Please, we all know "electability"

is the only thing that won Kerry the primary.

[zulchzulu]

94. Um...

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/states/IA/

[Eloriel]

104. That plus a few backroom deals plus a few old fashioned

dirty tricks, Dem-on-Dem dirty tricks (which makes me want to :puke: ).

And let's be clear: the Dean campaign was NOT perfect. They made mistakes and probably a lot of them. BUT I maintain that their own mistakes were NOT enough to sink Dean. Not at all. It took a coordinated effort (with a little help from the RNC) to take Dean down. The shortened primary season, front-loaded, didn't help at all either. Dean was picking up speed FAST on the way to NH -- but the clock ran out.

[RetroLounge]

155. Yup, They voted because the media said Kerry was Electable

How's that working out for you?

RL

[Eloriel]

103. Thank you, thank you -- right on, sister!

Testament to the machine and AFAIC dirty, dirty politics. And they now want the Iowa Machine man himself, Vilsack, as DNC chair. As I said before: GOOD, I think they deserve one another.

I am SO relieved that Dean didn't end up going there and, God forbid, actually getting it. He is far too valuable outside their corrupt system and, in fact, I would love to see him form a new party -- not right now, but I think the reality will eventually dawn on him that the Dem Party is for all practical purposes dead.

Dean drew supporters from all across the political spectrum EXCEPT hardcore Bush base -- he drew Libertarians, Greens, Independents, Moderates, both True Conservative and Rockefeller Republicans, and a very nice big swath of the Dem base, AND gobs of people who were totally disaffected from the political process and had either never voted or hadn't voted in years, let alone ever contributed to a candidate. He could do it (form a new party), easily. We The People are CRAZY for someone to speak the simple truth honestly, forthrightly, simply, directly (well, except the people who really are crazy), just as Dean is famous for doing.

[DaveinMD]

138. there were other primaries after Iowa

Dean did worse than he did in Iowa in most of those.

[PassingFair]

66. The "rank and file" voted for who they were told to...

The system was rigged to annoint a winner in Iowa. Kerry knew it, the DLC knew it, hell, Dean knew it.
Caucus voting dems were on the DLC track. By the time the rest of the country got to vote in actual primaries, it was waayyyyy too late.
We are greasy with annointed ones.
Out with From and Read.
In with Dean, he will bring an army of us "fanatics" to work for the democratic party, what could be wrong with that. We will work, and we will donate. We will rock you....

[zulchzulu]

70. The "rank and file"? You have NO idea what you are talking about

Like I've said before, I WAS in Iowa for the caucuses and even did a fair amount of video of the Kerry, Dean, Gephardt and Edwards campaigns behind the scenes.

You really obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

The "rank and file" automatons you seem to be cartoonishly referring to were Iowa citizens and voters. People. Some white...some black...some latino...some asian...gay...straight...tall...short...old...young... rich...poor...people.

They participated in a caucus. They showed up. They debated. Thy voted. They went home.

It is absolutely disgusting when I read this absolute garbage that Dean was somehow "robbed" in Iowa by some "party hacks", "dark forces", "evil white people"...blah....blah...fucking blah...

Dean is a good man. Trippi sucked. Dean lost. Dean spent almost $40+ million and was broke by Super Tuesday.

Get

over

it

!

[PassingFair]

81. They participated in an entrenched system of CAUCUS voters

they are not your normal dems off the street.
They participated in a caucus (THE caucus, a staple of Iowa, a state that went RED by the way)
They showed up....that is why they are the "rank and file"
They debated....and ate up the attention they get as dems in a RED state every four years.
They voted...partyline

I'm in a blue state, but even here, where we had a caucus (coincidence?) instead of our usual open primary this year, the rank and file FILED in and did what their dem clubs told them to do.
Most off the street dems didn't even know what or when the caucus was.
And please, try and refrain from telling me that I have NO idea (caps yours) what I am talking about.

I never used the term party hack, evil whites or dark forces. Entrenched loser dems I might have let slip.

The wheels were greased. The whole thing was set up to create a clear "winner" in Iowa and present a "united" front for the party. It worked.
I
WILL
NOT
GET
OVER
IT.

[ohioan]

86. So, if Dean had WON the Iowa caucus, it wouldn't have meant a thing?

i think not.

[PassingFair]

89. What the....

this is along the "What if Spartacus had had a Piper Cub" type questions.

[zulchzulu]

92. If Dean won Iowa, well...it would have been corrupt party hacks from Hell

No wait... it would have proven how cool a caucus is....now I'm getting it....hmmmm...

[ohioan]

93. By, Jove!

[Cheswick2.0]

111. I Dean had won the IA caucus it would have been won fair and square

[zulchzulu]

90. Is this all based on some hallucinations?

Like I said, I WAS in Iowa. There was plenty of information of when and where the caucuses were. It was on TV...in the papers...phone calls...flyers...junk mail...email...

People knew where and when to vote. Those THAT CARED voted. Those that didn't....well...didn't.

What excuses or fun fantasies do you have about New Hampshire, South Carolina or Wisconsin?

UFOs? Parallel universes? Are we all just pixels in a lost hoodwinked microcosm of victimhood?

Let me nuke some popcorn.
:crazy:

[PassingFair]

97. Those that cared voted

Those that didn't were ordinary democrats.
At least here in Michigan.
In Iowa, its all theater.
...and the kids don't get the good roles.
You have now accused me of having NO idea what I'm talking about.
Now you accuse me of being hallucinatory.
Fun fantasies?
How about not counting all the votes in New Hampshire, or Washington.

You don't have enough lemmings to win.

We need new leadership and transparency in our government.

[zulchzulu]

101. Oh I see...

Deflect the "discussion" about the Iowa caucus and turn it into some vote-counting thang... perhaps you think I don't want all the votes to be counted...whatever.

Listen. The Democratic voters in Iowa were Democrats. Yes, ordinary Democrats. I talked to them. I met them. I saw them. If you want to play some kind of odd game where some Democrats (from Iowa) are not as "worthy" as Democrats (from Michigan)...I see your "point".

[PassingFair]

102. Their "worthyness" is not in question.

Iowa caucus voters are not ordinary democrats. They have the eyes of the country focused on them once every four years, like Punxsutawny Phil.
They are used to being serenaded by canvassers.
And as far as Michigan goes, we USUALLY have a primary here, last year we had a caucus, and ordinary dems DID NOT VOTE in it.
I am very tired now, but tomorrow I will track down the number of dems that voted in our caucus and compare it to the number of dems that 1)ordinarily vote in a straight primary; and
2) the number who voted in the general election two weeks ago.
The party wanted NO challenge to Kerry and engineered early and unusual primaries to ensure it.

[Eloriel]

105. Being IN Iowa doesn't (can't) give you the full view

unless you were magically capable of being in all the caucuses at once. There were PLENTY of dirty tricks going on -- Dean supporters (No. 1 supporters) were called and told the wrong addresses to go to. They were called at all hours of the night with robocalls pretending to be from the Dean campaign -- and it pissed them off.

Etc., etc. Lots of ugly stuff went on.

The unions -- well experienced at caucusing and totally at Gephardt's disposal, did their thing too. Gephardt had been promised the VP slot or "certainly a place in the administration" in return, according to his own longtime aide (and dirty trickster), Joyce Abouzzi.

And let's not forget the backroom deal between Edwards and Kucinich over their supporters. Why Kucinich fell for that I'll never know, except that he seemed to really hate Dean and must have spread some horrible mischaracterizations about him based on all the ugliness I saw from Kucinich supporters against Dean right here at DU.

And on and on...... and on.

You may have had a nice, up close and personal look at it, but those of us back here reading the bloggers' comments on DFA (Dean For America at that time) in realtime (and shortly afterwards) got the bird's eye view.

[madfloridian]

107. And our daughter called us in tears from Iowa after the caucuses.

We had a good summary.

[zulchzulu]

159. Um...Ok...but answer me this question honestly

Why is it that Joe Trippi knew Dean was going to lose in Iowa, didn't go with him to Iowa and didn't even return his phone calls when Dean was there? Answer that...

Yes, I was there in Iowa (all over the state for a two week period) and saw and heard from people regarding getting two and three copies of Dean literature (from the campaign) a day. Phone calls from the campaign...sometimes 5 a day...people showing up and knocking on their door even though people had yard signs for other candidates on their lawn or cars...

Some of these excuses about Dean people being told the wrong place to vote is dishonest. There was coverage on the local stations where to vote, newspapers that had the locations listed and if someone was curious, they could call any campaign office and find out. So any whining about the fact that people had no idea were to go or where mislead is a bit silly.

If anyone has actual documented proof about Iowans and the "party hacks" somehow stole the Iowa caucus from Dean, I'd be glad to look at it. But if it's all poor sports hearsay, leave me out of it.

Iowa was one election. Are the same excuses regarding New Hampshire and other states the same?

[ohioan]

176. Let's assume the "Dean got railroaded in Iowa" crowd are right . . .

If Dean and his supporters couldn't manage to overcome the supposed dirty tricks of a bunch of amateurs in the Iowa caucuses, how can anyone think he was up to taking on the Bush/Rove machine?

If Dean did get bamboozled in Iowa, he clearly wasn't ready for prime time.

Of course, we know he didn't get bamboozled - he just got beat. But either way, the whining is getting pretty old. Hell, it was old nine months ago.

I wonder why we don't hear this kind of sniping and whining and boo hooing from Edwards or Clark of Gephardt or Sharpton or Graham or Moseley Braun supporters?

[Cheswick2.0]

109. it happened...continuing to deny it is not going to float

I really have no use for dishonest people. It all happened.

[Julien Sorel]

129. ROFL

I really have no use for dishonest people.

As funny as the paranoid conspiracy theories are, this wins the blue ribbon by a country mile.

[DaveinMD]

137. this is pure lunacy

Democratic voters are not stupid. Its elitist for you to claim you know more. Kerry was not DLC.

[RetroLounge]

154. Yes, they voted for Kerry because he was Electable

How did that work out for you?

RL

[AntiCoup2K4]

59. Howard Dean IS the leader of the Democrats who give a shit

Howard Dean has consistently stood up for this party and this country while the DLC and their zombie appeasers have voted for wars, constitution shredding, a resolution tying Iraq to 9-11 which was a complete LIE and completely showed no balls during the 2002 election cycle and too little too late in 2004. And even then, what spine they DID find was because it was transplanted by Dr. Howard Dean.

If Vil-suck or any other DLC coward is named chairman of this party, it's over. The next tombstone they put up here might as well be for the Democratic Party itself.

Here Lies An Opposition Party. They Opposed Poorly :grr:

[ohioan]

61. That's a load of crap

There are plenty of Democrats who give a shit but who don't think that Howard Dean is our Lord and Savior.

This attitude among some of Dean's supporters that Dean is the ONLY possible choice among "real" Democrats is one of the reasons that Dean crashed and burned in the primaries. It drives people away and, unfortunately for Dean, who is not responsible for his supporters' delusions, it only serves to diminish some of the support that he would otherwise get.

As I said, Howard Dean is a good man and a fine politician. But is not the end-all and be-all of Democratic politics. And he's not even particularly original - most people who have been around politics for more than one presidential cycle understand this.

[AntiCoup2K4]

68. The Dumbshit Loser Council has lost 3 consecutive elections....

...as well as this party's biggest single loss, the 1994 Contract ON America theft of Congress.

The guys who you trust to lead this party, Al From and Will "PNAC" Marshall said of that defeat - which we continue to pay for to this day - that it was a "liberation". As if the legacy of FDR, Truman, and JFK was something to be liberated from???

Clinton won because of who he was, not because of the fools backing him. And Ross Perot helped him out a little.......

Voter fraud, BCE tampering in Florida, and Supreme Court manipulations all aside, the last 2 Presidential elections should NEVER have been close enough to steal.

2002? They folded. They bent over and lubed up and took those elephants right up the pooper chute.

Tell me one goddamned reason why we should trust ANYONE connected with these LOSERS to rebuild this party?

[ohioan]

78. Try to stay on topic

[Eloriel]

110. Oh, goodness, you see the handwriting on the wall --

don't hang around for the final death knell. It's over. It's been over for about 4 years (if not longer) now.

I'm not trying to be disdainful or insulting here -- wait if you want. It's just that it's kind of like the abused wife who says, "Well, maybe he really means it this time, I'll stick around and see."

Vilsack WILL be the new DNC chair -- Reid and Kerry want him, and that's that. (Vilsack's reward for helping Kerry out as much as he and his machine did in Iowa, and believe me, they did.) It's already been announced, tho the "formality" of voting still has to take place -- which will be about as meaningful as our votes on Nov. 2.

[Larkspur]

147. Right you are!!!

Dean needs to be our SAKAL -- Strategist and *ss-kicker At Large. He is my SAKAL and I'll be a Dean "sakal" in my neck of the woods.

Assuming that Dean does not win the DNC Chair, here's one of the things I plan on doing. When I get a solicitiation from the DNC, I will fill out the form and put in $0.00, enclose my own form letter below, and NOT put a stamp on the return envelope if it says "postage paid...".

My proposed form letter to the DNC solicitation
Thank you for your interest in my money, but since the DNC does not represent my views, I will be sending my money to DFA or Democracy for America because Howard Dean does represent my political views.

When the DNC and Democratic Party as a whole reforms itself along the models that Howard Dean, Thomas Frank, and George Lakoff propose, then I will be inclined to financially support the DNC. Until then DFA gets my money.

I'll keep doing this for as long as the DNC solicits me. This is one way that I will chip away at the mountain of corruption and decadence in the current Democratic Party.

[paulk]

60. no

the proof is in this thread - and in just about every other Dean thread here on DU going back a year and a half. Howard Dean is one of the most divisive politicians out there - for whatever reason.

The job of a leader is to unite - and I just can't see that happening with Dean.

[ohioan]

63. Dean is not the problem . . .

Some of his supporters - the ones who think that Dean invented politics - are. Unfortunately for Dean, though, he gets the blame.

[Bush was AWOL]

71. That could be it, too

[Cheswick2.0]

113. nonsense

we just aren't willing to follow any loser the DLC throws at us anymore.

[Cheswick2.0]

112. Dean is not divisive.............people just aren't willing to be sheep

anymore

[Eloriel]

114. And pray tell.

What Democrat can you name who doesn't have detractors on DU (that is, couldn't ALSO be called "divisive" in your terms?)

BTW, most of the people who are anti-Dean clearly, based on their own posts, don't know that much about him, and what they THINK they know is wrong, based on others' lies about him, etc.

[Kahuna]

67. Time will tell. No pronouncement on DU will make it a certainty.

nt

[Bush was AWOL]

69. Maybe on DU, but not elsewhere

Myself and most of the people I know don't consider him the leader of the party or even close to being the leader.

I've noticed he's very popular here, but I've yet to experience your opinion outside of DU.:shrug:

[ohioan]

79. Then the people you are hanging out with aren't REAL Democrats

[Bush was AWOL]

83. You're joking right?

[JohnKleeb]

85. yeah he is

youre not a REAL democrat either because I proabbly disagree with you on an issue. Just teasing, that would make a good essay paper though, "What is a real democrat?"

[ohioan]

95. Short paper

Answer - "Anyone who agrees with me."

[JohnKleeb]

98. ha

no its
"Anyone who agrees with me on everything"

[madfloridian]

106. Riddle me this, guys.

How does it help to ridicule us? What does it accomplish to keep making fun of us and trying to make us feel like fools.?

Want to know what it accomplishes? It is making folks realize more how very little our party stands for now.....it is making us realize there are other options than be made to be the fool.

That is pleasant feeling. It really is. This is now a pro-war, pro-corporate party, it has no roots with the people anymore.

Actually this is a good thing to have happen, this ridicule. It is. It makes us more thick-skinned for what lies ahead in remaking it from the ground up....

It will drive a lot away from the now useless bunch of people in fancy buildings who dictate policy with no concern for the vast majority of people.

Thanks, thanks for the ridicule. More please because it inspires greatly.

[Guaranteed]

108. They're not going to like us calling them on their shit.

Of course they're going to say we just "worship" Dean. It takes their mind off the fact that they're simply unwilling to stand up for what's right.

[Kahuna]

126. Telling the majority of Dems who rejected Dean that Dean is *the*

leader of the Democrats isn't exactly going to give your side a lot of credibility. That is a very silly pronouncement. If ridicule ensues, who is at fault? The people who laugh at that or the people who made the pronouncement?

[Forkboy]

82. "...to all us Democrats "

Kind of presumptious?

[KnowerOfLogic]

84. Dean tells it like it is about Repugs, but also offers positive proposals

This is what we need; uncompromising truth telling, both in terms of pointing out the wrongs of the repukes, and in terms of presenting a positive democratic alternative.

[ohioan]

88. What concrete proposals has Dean offered since February?

[Cheswick2.0]

115. What a dumb question

Why would he undermine Kerry by doing that?

[ohioan]

131. It's dumb question to ask one who claims "Dean offers positive proposals"

what proposals Dean has offered since the primary?

Hmm. Interesting.

Either Dean offers proposals or he doesn't. Which is it?

[janx]

166. You might want to look here

http://www.democracyforamerica.com

to find a few...

[ohioan]

169. Nice website - where are Dean's proposals?

Not a one anywhere on the site.

[janx]

170. Dean's many proposals, if you'd like to call them that

(they've gone far beyond that stage) involve real Democracy, starting from the bottom and working up.

Let's take what I might assume as your home state, for instance:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/candidates/states.php?state=Ohio

Recommended Candidates in Ohio



Greg Harris for US House
District 1 (near Cincinnati)



Jeff Seemann for US House
District 16 (near Canton-Massillon)



Jane Mitakides for US House



Judge William O'Neill for Supreme Court



Mary Jo Kilroy for County Commissioner



DFA Coalition Groups



Democracy for Ohio
Wake Up Ohio




DFA Meetups



Akron
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Columbus
Dayton
Toledo





If you have any questions about how to find your local DFA group or recommended candidate, please email meetup (at) democracyforamerica.com

[ohioan]

175. What in the HELL are you talking about?

A list of endorsed candidates (all of whom were previously endorsed by the Ohio and county Democratic parties) is NOT a policy proposal and it's certainly not something that Howard Dean is responsible for. And, considering that all but one of these candidates lost their races, despite the support of the remarkable Dr. Dean, you're hard-pressed to convince anyone that these endorsements represent any kind of ground-breaking party shakeup.

Give me a break.

It was claimed that Howard Dean has specific proposals that demonstrate that he is THE leader of the Democratic Party. I asked what proposals he has unveiled since the primaries. I was then lambasted for expecting Dean to detract from Kerry by announcing his own proposals and then you directed me to this website "to find a few" of the proposals Dean has supposedly presented. Apparently you either didn't actually look at the website - or figured that I wouldn't. But I did and found not a single proposal by Dean (or anyone else) anywhere on the site.

So, now you expect me to believe that a list of endorsements is some kind of bold initiative by Dean?

Please. Peddle this "Dean is God even though I can't explain why" crap elsewhere - I'm not buying.

[ohioan]

91. If ANYONE is the leader of the Democratic Party, it's Kerry -

You know - the guy who the vast majority of Democrats picked to be our standard bearer (I didn't vote for him, but I respect the fact that he got a hell of a lot more votes than my guy did and, thus, he got to be the one). Yeah, that guy. The one who got 56 million votes (53 million or so of which were Democrats) in the general election. Him.

[zulchzulu]

99. Wait! We need leaders who can pull invisible votes out of their butt

Magic! Presto change-o!

Seriously...why did Kerry give up when he knew he lost by about 3 million votes? Even knowing that the Ohio provisional votes were not enough, he could have at least said that somehow...some way...that reality was not a part of this whole thing. He should have made Diebold machines have paper ballots, even thoug it was too late and the time machine was not quite done yet.

He should have stomped his feet and yelled at the top of his lungs that it just isn't fair! The media would have understood and wanted to be his best pal. Just like during the Election...

[Guaranteed]

118. So he KNEW everything was cool THAT morning?

Wow. He may not be able to pull votes out of his butt, but maybe he's clairvoyant.

[Cheswick2.0]

116. yeah...hows that working out for ya? Kerry the great leader

LOL

Face it democrats are just as much sheep as pugs are. The were told Kerry was electable and they voted for him. He did nothing in particular to win that vote. The smartest thing he did was steal Deans stump speech.

[ohioan]

133. Well, since Dean couldn't even beat Kerry among Democrats

where does that leave him? It's certainly ridiculous to assume that the guy who couldn't even get a majority of his own party to pick him over another candidate now gets to jump to the head of the line and get coronated THE leader of that party. And, notwithstanding the Dean worshipfest amongst a minority of Democrats, most Democrats have not offered any indication that they regret their choice or that they want a do-over so that Dean can be our leader instead.

[Guaranteed]

117. LOL, the one who voted yes on the IWR, you mean?

The one who lost the election? The one who conceded the very next morning, well before all the votes were in?

[ohioan]

134. Yes - the one who kicked Dean's ass in the primaries. THAT one.

[Guaranteed]

168. Yeah, you're right- personally, I LOVED the IWR.

I think Bush gets a bad rap over this Iraq War thing. It's really not so bad.

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. Then...I'm out of here.

:hi: I was conned into canvassing for him. And he screwed us. If he's the leader, heaven help us.

[PhuLoi]

158. You don't have to move a muscle, just stand in place while the

DLC and the new improved DNC moves the party further to the right. Much like a cloud, its passing over my wife and I.

[robbedvoter]

128. Then the party is deader than I thought. DNC pointed to him as ABB

and I held my nose and voted - knowing full well that he is no leader. He proved me right after the fraud - held on for exactly 11 hours.
Then added insult to injury by saying that the whole thing was "God testing him" - so we, our democracy were only extras in this grand play between God and John.
Yup. leader.

[lojasmo]

144. He sure as heck isn't my leader

Hell, as hard as he tried, he couldn't even use the english language to capture the hearts of america.

[ohioan]

149. He obviously captured more of America than Dean did

Or else Dean would have been the nominee.

And, since when is 50 million+ votes a "failure to capture the hearts of America?"

[lojasmo]

164. I voted for him

Though I don't like him at all. His pandering to the bush administration made me absolutely sick.

ABB prevented Kerry from a resounding loss.

[AntiCoup2K4]

148. Yeah, that guy... the guy who promised he wouldn't give in to fraud....

...like Al Gore did. And then caved the very morning after the election despite obvious fraud in at least 3 states.

[ohioan]

152. Yeah - the guy who obviously is sophisticated enough to understand

that conceding and ensuring that fraud is exposed and the votes are counted are not mutually exclusive. The guy who understands that effective politics requires more than running around with one's hair on fire screaming bloody murder before gathering the evidence necessary to prove a point just because it makes the red-meat portion of his party feel better.

[Larkspur]

161. If it wasn't for ABB, Kerry would have gotten blown out in a landslide

Kerry is the Bore from Boston.

[dkf]

124. Dean's the only Democratic Politician that I hear speaking up

about the true risks to our democracy.

What he is saying is bigger than political parties or about winning. It is about what we are losing as a country and it is the most patriotic thing I have heard since I became aware of what is going on in this world.

He needs to be heard, not for the Democratic party, but for all citizens of this country who have no idea what is at stake here.

[ohioan]

135. Then you're not paying attention

[janx]

141. Exactly! DFA!

http://www.democracyforamerican.com

[ohioan]

153. He needs to be heard. Is the DNC Chair the only way to be heard?

[MuseRider]

157. Sorry but

there are other Democrats working effectively. All you gotta do is look around a little. If you don't you might miss something like this...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1001641&mesg_id=1001641

[okieinpain]

136. great post. Dean has my vote.

[janx]

142. kick

[Tom Rinaldo]

145. I want Dean to head the DNC

I think he would do a great job there. People forget sometimes that he was elected head of the National Governors Association once (don't know if I have the right title/organization name, but it was something like that). I trust Dean to defend Democrats. I trust Dean to fight for us. I also trust him to be clever enough not to burn bridges that don't need to be burned. He's a smart guy. He would not run the DNC as an insurgent but he would give it spine and passion. It is stupid to use the fact that he lost the nomination as ammunition against him for this post. Hell half of this country's Vice Presidents seem to have lost their Party's nomination for the Presidency at one time or another. Many went on to run for or become President. It is irrelevant that Dean "lost". The only thing that matters is if he can do the job. I think he would be excellent.

[janx]

162. He would probably have to abandon DFA to do that though--

so I wouldn't count on it.

[Julien Sorel]

180. He was head of the NGA

before he adopted his Angry Man faux liberal persona in the primaries. Now, he's a huge political liability waiting to happen.

I don't think he wants the job anyway. The 2006 elections are shaping up to be, at best, a wash for the Democrats. If he's in charge, and the Democrats lose a seat or two in the Senate, as looks probable, he will actually be responsible for something, and neither he, nor his true believers, really wants that. Much better to keep him outside the fray so he can criticize without accountability.
Howard Dean is the future of the Democratic Party, and always will be.

[RetroLounge]

156. Right on, and here's how you know it is right

because the usual screaming Dean Bashers will show up and begin spouting what their masters are paying them to spout.

Dean scares the spineless DLC moderate Dems, and there are a bunch here.

"Oh, please don't speak the truth Mr. Dean, it pisses off the Repugs"

RL

[zulchzulu]

160. Were the millions who voted against Dean in the primaries "Dean bashers"?

Can't you see Dean is only a candidate.

He's not a god.

I like him, but I wonder where people think he's beyond criticism and seem to have no sense of reality that he did indeed lose in the primary season.

Personally, I'm not a member of the DLC. I'm not even a registered Democrat. And I'm not a moderate.

[AntiCoup2K4]

163. No, a lot of them were media brainwashed sheeple who bought the lie of ...

"electability". Others were Repuke moles deliberately skewing caucuses and primaries to the candidate who they wanted to face Bush.

In the General Election, almost everybody I know voted for John Kerry. And almost every one of them wished it were somebody else.

[janx]

165. I was horrified to watch the Iowa caucus process.

And I have a soft spot in my heart for the state.

[zulchzulu]

172. Where you there?

How were you "horrified" if you were or weren't there.

[zulchzulu]

171. Welcome to the Land of Voting In Elections

No candidate is "perfect". Even Howard Dean...

[ohioan]

177. I see - anyone who didn't vote for the infallible Dr. Dean is brainwashed,

or a mole.

And you wonder why Dean supporters can't seem to attract new members to their club.

[quaker bill]

167. Thanks, You are correct and it could not be more obvious.

November 2 is past. The results are in. The notion that we achieve "electability" through policy papers, resume, combat decorations, and doing all things possible to not "rock the boat" or "alienate swing voters" has produced the inevitable results.

We were told we needed to soften the rhetoric and run a damn Democratic Convention where no one was supposed to attack Bush.

I am sorry, but you win by engaging in the battle, not by being above it.

Soft rhetoric is the only outwardly tangible sign of weak convictions. This was derided as "flip-flopping" and a "lack of moral clarity" by the opposition.

They called Howard Dean "too angry" but they never called him a "flip-flopper".

Here is the thing about seeming "angry". First, it was largely psycho-babble. But beyond that, most democrats were, still are, and will likely continue to be angry by the injustice that has and now will continue to be done by the Bush Misadministration. To the extent "anger" existed anywhere, it would have been nothing more than honest communication.

Communicating some anger would actually have been refreshing and exhibited some "moral clarity".

Better yet, it would have kept the debate sqaurely framed on the Bush record. We failed to do this, so Bush ran away from his record and won.

The DLC "electability" model has been tried and it consistently fails to produce a dependable majority. It is time for new ideas.

[RummyTheDummy]

173. Uhhhhhh

No, he's not.

[Eurobabe]

174. Hebedaman

[jzodda]

178. This is what I said in here

shameless plug lol

[Clark2008]

179. I still contend

that he couldn't turn any red-state, blue, and we have to do that.

He would be FANTASTIC, however, as the DNC chairman. He's an awesome recruiter of young, hard-working (though not-necessarily voting) campaigners and knows how to raise money.

We have to connect with the South and the mid-West. Voting fraud aside, we saw the divide in this election and it was not pretty.

I live in a red state. My senator probably will run for president in 2008. (Frist :puke:) and I plan to use something against ole Fristy-boy that will show how hypocritical Mr. Security is (think, illegal immigrant and deportations hearings, pleas to Frist for help and bupkus from him - it's a bit more involved, but that's the idea). I want the divide stopped because I think there are many, many, many people down here who would vote for someone they perceived as a moderate because they don't realize that the ideas they think are moderate are actually liberal or progressive.

It's all in perception and, while I like Dean, personally, I don't think he could ever be perceived in any red state as a trustful moderate.

Just my two cents. Don't flame. We're all entitled to our opinions.

[janx]

181. Welcome to DU!

Dean has not yet expressed any desire to be the chair of the DNC.

He could turn some red states blue, to be sure. He is a passionate moderate--so much so that he became a liability, during the last primaries, to the Democratic party.

That's one of the reasons they ousted him.

[Julien Sorel]

185. Which red states would he turn blue? How would he do it?

I keep seeing this posted here, but when it comes to an actual mechanism for bringing it about, it turns to mush: "I know a Republican who said they'd vote for Dean because he's straightforward;" or the old nonsense from the primaries about how Dean will bring new voters to the polls. Nothing substantial, not even a rationale that stands up to close scrutiny. I can point to half a dozen potential candidates who could put an argument together as to how they'd win red states, and some of them actually have won in them. When it comes to Dean though, I'm essentially told to ignore reason and history, and simply trust him. Yet he couldn't get the job done in the primaries, despite huge advantages.

[greenohio]

183. Dean was a political disaster

Dean blew up in the primaries. Though I agree with him on the Iraq war, by blazing the trail to promote it as a campaign piece he forced Kerry into his insane "I voted for it before I voted against it" nuanced mentality on the war. He probably would have done better had he not used the war rhetoric. Dean really didn't do us any favors.

[iamthebandfanman]

186. ive always said and always will

that dean coulda been elected.
he woulda appealed to alot of moderates who feel outa place in the republican party.
yah, hes a social liberal, but fiscally not so much. i think alot of rethuglicans(the true conservatives, not the neo-cons) HATE how shrub has expanded government, taken away privacy, and has spent so carelessly.

[greenohio]

187. DEAN WON...IT WAS FRAUD!!!

The repukes used the same tricks in the primaries.
;-)