The Red staters feel they ARE voting in their best interests. Bigotry

[fujiyama]

I think many of us on the left have made a big mistake - we think they can be swayed by rationality. We have been proven wrong. They are moved by fear, the power of personality, and bigotry.

They're true believers. To them abortion is murder. If that is the case, then nothing justifies it. If you're going to make a civil liberties argument with these people, then to them you are saying that people have the right to commit murder.

The party should not give up its pro choice stance. Why? Because it's a matter of practicality. Unwanted pregnancies happen, and abortions will always take place, whether it is legal - or not. The question is, should it be safe and regulated, or in a back alley, through what amounts to a black market, by unscrupulous people that have no concern for the safety of the woman?

I would say our main focus should be about how to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place - and the religious right has been a failure on this front. After all, why do right wing religious zealouts oppose birth control and contraceptives? What about meaningful sex ed, not ineffective abstinence only programs?

We as a party must take the right HEAD ON on this issue. We're allowing them to frame the debate. For that, we must stop using terms like "Pro Life". They are anti choice or anti abortion. That's all. We must find a way to force the media to start labeling things accurately. After all, the right has been able to use words effectively - the estate tax is now the "death tax", tax cuts are "tax relief", then they go on about "the culture of life". What they are doing is making them virtuous and in effect, making the opposite - pro "death tax", against tax "relief", and in favor of what amounts to a culture of death.

This is vital. I think the recent candidate for th OK senate seat, Carson had some good points in his article (it's another thread under "vote righteously"). The way I have begun to see the situation with many in relatively poorer states like Oklahoma, is that those that are voting for republicans are voting for their best interests. Many of these people know, from their own situation on the ground, that they won't get much back from a tax cut, that their own sons and daughters are dying in a war that now seems questionable. But to them, it's irrelevant, because they are voting their "values". These "values" of theirs are bigotry (mainly anti gay) and what is to them the killing of the unborn. Just like in the civil war, when many poorer non slave owners fought for the wealthy that did own them, these people too are fighting for a culture of bigotry.

Until the bigotry is defeated, we will not move forward in the south, the midwest, and much of the rest of the nation.

[LuminousX]

1. You are correct

It is irrational to act against one's own self interest, so if people seem to be acting irrationally, we have to analyze what they consider to be in their self-interest.

Those who vote for Bush on the grounds of 'moral leadership' have been led to believe that a moral life will be a life of security, growth, and financial stability. The GOP has sold them a bill of goods that won't be delivered.

We won't sway them by telling them that their values system is wrong, but we can by offering a choice that doesn't force them to be mutally exclusive. We can talk about Liberty, Freedom of Choices, Rights of the Individual against the Government. We can inspire them with bold plans that can be explained concisely and easily in a five minute presentation.

[PATRICK]

2. Bigotry is an equal opportunity moral disease

It can be directed against anyone at any time. The poison is never latent. it eats into the core of thought and feeling and substitutes its sick joy and arrogant satisfaction for any healthy emotions or values.
Soulless, dumb, scary, dehumanized. Every time I see someone who has succumbed to this type of inward hate they just about lose their personality and meld with all the other viral victims and victimizers.

You can easily see why they can form an obstinate voting bloc.

[Stuckinthebush]

3. The thing about outlawing abortions....

If this ever happens, who suffers? The working class and poor, that's who. Do we really believe that if an anti-choice congressman's daughter turns up pregnant with the fetus of the lawn guy, that this congressman will insist that his daughter have the baby? Don't make me laugh. They will pay their good friend Doctor X to do the abortion or they will fly the daughter to Canada.

Now, turn the tables. If a working class parent has a daughter that gets pregnant, there are two options in the future scenario - have the baby or go to a back alley abortionist. There is no third option of terminating an unwanted pregnancy.

So, once again, the poor and the working class get screwed by the politicians. The sad thing is, that the poor and working class vote for these hypocritical jerks because they are for "moral values".

It's enough to make you scream.

[fujiyama]

4. .

:kick:

[Justice]

5. A more powerful way to frame the debate, IMO

is to talk about the reasons why woman choose abortion.

In many cases, abortion is chosen b/c of uncertainity or a lack of work, healthcare, childcare, housing, stability. In the Clinton admnistration abortion rates went down 25%. They are going back up in the Bush administration. People need to appreciate this information. This was not discussed by the Democrats.

As Hillary Clinton said at Tufts University a week or so ago (I am paraphasizing), I bet people who genuinely are pro-life would be interested to learn about the descrease in abortion rates during the Clinton administration and why the rates went down.

She also said - Jesus spent alot more time in the Bible talking about the sick and poor than he did about gay marriage -- we need to engage in a discussion about these issues.