My evening with 3 bush voters

[noiretextatique]

people i'm training with at work.
one is a white woman, a catholic who voted for bush because of is stance on abortion.
when i told her that some bush supporters are against any form of contraception and asked her who was the real pro-abortion candidate...she had no defense. she said kerry shouldn't be trusted, and i asked her what she meant; i asked her if she thought he was a communist or something...she had no defense.

one is a white, gay man. he's a ringer for jack on "will on grace," but something tells me he thinks he's closeted.
when i asked him why on earth he voted for bush, he said his vote was more a vote against kerry than for bush, and when i asked why...he had no defense. he did tell me he almost voted for the libertarian candidate, i told him i really wish he had done so. finally he told me he voted for bush because he didn't like how people talked bad about him...calling him an idiot, etc, as i had. so i asked him: what if people are just telling the truth: he IS an idiot...he had no defense.

the last one...a Vietnamese woman. when i asked her why she would support a candidate who started an unjust war similar to the one that devastated her country, she said she didn't support the war, but she didn't like kerry's french wife :eyes: she went on to say that americans are such great people that the want to bring freedom to people everywhere, including iraq. when i asked her if putin would be justified in invading the USA because he felt bush was a terrorist and that americans were in danger because of him...she said that was different.

god...i was totally unprepared for this conversation, and totally unprepared to be surrounded by bushbots. when the 3rd one brought up the subject of politics, i had no idea i'd be outnumbered...they seem so nice and so smart. oddly enough, the anti-abortion woman is probably the most reachable of the three...at least she asked me where i got my information.

a few things struck me about all three:
1) none of them supported the war, but felt they would still support the "war president."
2) 2 or the 3 believe bush stole the 2000 election...but they voted for him anyway
3) all three repeated rw memes about kerry. e.g.,
"he can't be trusted"
"he's on their side" (the french and other thems)
"his wife would run things"
"he really isn't a war hero" (even though none of the bush hawks served)
"i just don't trust him"
"i don't like him"

what really struck me is that none of them could explain WHY they voted for bush, well at least not anything that i couldn't shoot down in 5 seconds. it seemed to me they were grasping for any justification for voting for these madmen, as if they knew they had no reason whatsoever to do so.

they were all severely misinformed, and not really proud of their choice...strange...but spouting every faux lie about kerry. and the women were particularly hostile to mrs. kerry...funny that, since both are fairly assertive women. our conversation ended with me telling them that they'd voted for the most hated person on the planet, and that i hoped they wouldn't regret their choice, but i knew they would.
i asked them to call me when they got to that point...perhaps they will when the draft starts.

and after that...i seriously contemplated moving to canada. i think these three are typical bush voters: they really don't have any idea why they voted for him, but they believe they will be ok regardless.
they buy every bs rove/fauxism about kerry and his wife, and they base their "decisions" on that...and some vague belief that america is always right, even when she is wrong.

what an evening...a peek into the minds of bush voters :scared:

[Divine Discontent]

1. scuse me...

what MIND of the bush voter???? troubling evening.

[fujiyama]

2. My friend

said his mom did the same and she was a Gore voter in '00.

I'm seriously ready to leave. I have probably one more semester in college. If I find a decent job in Canada, I will probably go.

[noiretextatique]

61. good luck to you

i'm looking at vancouer...just because it's closet to california where i live now. i don't have a lot of reasons to stay, really.
as long as i can visit my parents every now and again...i'll be fine.

i support your decision.

[Quadrajet]

3. I wonder which "liberal media" outlet they got their information from?

Liberal media my ass.

[noiretextatique]

10. according to them...the media is against bush

another "reason" for their support. yes...faux, cnn and the rest are all "out to get" their belowec village idiot.

[shuffnew]

41. I've put CNN right in there with Fox News...

Since the TV channels are all far-right extremes (with Fox News being the ultimate), I had been watching debates, etc. flipping back/forth from CNN and MSNBC.

As of last night, I scratched off CNN completely - now sitting right in there with Fox News in my eyes.

I had CNN more in a moderate category (giving them some credit - compared to Fox News, which doesn't say much for sure), but their performance over the past 3-4 weeks has been attrocious (worse than pre-Nov 2nd) and last night Paula and Lou put the icing on the cake for me!

There is no moderate or liberal channel at all really. The GOP Dominions own 'em all.

[EarthMerm]

106. Amen to the CNN post

I'm done w/ CNN. Watching Wolf Blitz breathlessly defend the media's hunting of Clinton yesterday (w/ Lanny Davis) made me sick to my stomach. I can no longer watch Blitz, that cow Candy Crowley or Judy Woodruff on their knees to Bush.
CNN has arrived as charter members in the Cult of Boosh. It's sickening

[SammyWinstonJack]

69. And that's where they would have lost me!

"according to them...the media is against bush", How in the world would they come to arrive at that conclusion? :crazy: Assuming they watch Faux News and by their reciting of rw talking points, it appears they do, it should be clear that the media isn't against bush*. If they only watch Faux News, then they are clearing talking out their butts. Lets assume that they also watch MSGOP and CNN, also clearly NOT against bush*, how do they come to their collective conclusion that the media is against bush*? All three networks went out of their way to prop bush* up and trash Kerry and Edwards. As for NBC ABC and CBS, the latter being the least in bush*'s camp, they did their part to also prop up bush*. So again, I wonder how they came to the conclusion that the media is against bush*? And what a dumb reason to vote for a candidate to begin with. Wouldn't that tend to make one think about why the media is against a candidate and make one do some research into said candidate's policies? Oh never mind. :argh:

[noiretextatique]

89. LOL...i know, i know...but they all agreed: the media is against bush

they said the media was trying to call the election for kerry (i believe this was when the actual results were matching exit polls...before they did their electronic magic)...and i told them i saw the exact opposite. all the networks have been bending over for bush since his first campaign.

i think perhaps this is a case of people seeing what they want to see.
i confess...i never even listed to *...i've only watched him speak twice, and if i hear his voice, i turn the channel.

[justa]

103. They "arrive at that conclusion" because that is what they are told

I hear the same line used again and again by the RW talking head that such and such must be true because the liberal media can not suppress it any more.
These people have been convinced of the "liberal bias of the media". Now they just as readily accept when the RW propaganda ministers tell them that anything that makes it in favor of their man or against the opposition must be true because it made it past the liberal censors. In other words it is so true they were forced to show it even though it is contradictory to their preset agenda.
This is a widespread notion that I believe needs to addressed and, when logic and facts show it for what it is, changed. Of course this is just my opinion.

[LittleClarkie]

23. Off topic, but -- ERNIE KOVAKS!!!!

I love your avatar, Quad.

[Quadrajet]

29. Heh thanks! Percy Dovetonsils is awesome.

[Julien Sorel]

4. Take my word for it:

The dumb ones are far better than the smart ones. The smart ones aren't fooled by the nonsense, and vote and contribute from purely selfish and cynical motivations. Your people were simply repeating what they saw on TV; if they had a better sense of what Bush is about they would, at the least, stay home on election days. The higher level Bushites know what he's about and like him for it.

[noiretextatique]

20. higher-leverl bushites?!?!

i suppose they do exist...
i have yet to meet one...most are like these three.

[blondeatlast]

35. You got that right.

Look what we are up against: monster self-interest and robots who get their ideas spoon fed to them.

While we sit around and shoot each other with poison darts, why don't we think about that for a moment?

Or is it too disturbing?

[leesa]

48. Sure. We can think about it all we want. THEY own the media.

As long as the media betrays the country with this nonsense, I see no change coming.

[noiretextatique]

58. it is very distrubing indeed

i was advocating writing people like the ones i talked to last night off, but now i am convinced we have to reach some of them. and i am not talking about reframing anything because that will not work.
i am talking about making them our personal projects and working to turn them, as many here have done with parents, siblings, friends, and coworkers. the catholic woman seems most open to change...she seemed the least invested in the rhetoric she was spouting, and at least she asked me where i got my information. i will work on her.

[Lucky Luciano]

5. I hate mindless bushbots

and their various pavRovian responses regarding Kerry.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. pavRovian?

OMG! That is a scream!!! You are so clever!!! I LOVE IT! Spread that around!

[Lucky Luciano]

16. I thought about that word the other day when

arguing on a board that was 2/3 neo-con. They called me a liberal elitist (maybe a little - it is hard not to feel superior to them) for bringing up my world travel (and the implicit fact that I care about the rest of the world) as something that educated me significantly and that they should try it too. When i tell them to try it, I mean that they should do it as humble guests in a foreign land because otherwise I quickly get responses about their military duty done overseas as examples of their travels - this is far different from being a humble guest interested in learning about other people. A lot of military travelers are very paternalistic or condescending to their hosts while they strut around the foreign land as if they own it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. Yeah, try to get college students to take advantage of study abroad

programs (task one) and to make sure they don't act like complete assholes while they're there (task two). Both are thankless, not always successful tasks.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. PavRovian is a great meme! nt

[blondeatlast]

36. PavRovian. Great word and duly noted! nt

[Behind the Aegis]

6. so sorry

It sounds like you had a tough night. So all I will say is...

Brightest Blessings!

[noiretextatique]

22. thanks...i took an aspirin

i il be fine in the morning :scared: :D this is what happens when good people stop thinking

[iamthebandfanman]

7. i always point out to catholics

that the pope also said going into iraq was not right and an atrosity
and correct me if im wrong but
the pope is infallible

:)

btw
after a long talk with my girlfriends mother, who is catholic and republican, and getting her to realise my points on things
she finally admitted
'well you dont change presidents in a time of war'
to which i responded
'well, we sure did during vietnam'

;)

i found that on alot of issues, she agreed with kerry and our party..but once again...it came down to religion and not changing him during a war. *shrugs*
people can be so darn ignorant its ALMOST funny.

[Lucky Luciano]

9. The pope also mentioned that this

was not a one issue election (re: abortion) and that the whole policy of the fraudministration should be taken into account.

[noiretextatique]

12. thanks...i will mention this to her

and ask her why she didn't heed this papal pronouncement. of course, she thinks kerry is a bad catholic for his choice stance, but i was too tired to delve into that quagmire.

[blondeatlast]

37. She probably did; through the filter of the RNC.

The Catholics I know (many) who voted for Kerry are VERY pissed off at their brethren who didn't.

They aren't shy about pointing out the papal opinion on the election choices, either.

[noiretextatique]

19. yep...of the three, the catholic woman seem the least

convinced that she made the right choice, but totally convinced about why she made the choice she did. at least she seemed torn...the other two were just flatliners.

[LibDemAlways]

101. "Flatliners"

A great way to describe chimp fans. Braindead. Perfect. Love to see a variation of it on a bumpersticker..."FOX News stops a thinking brain."

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Infallibility only applies if a pope speaks "ex cathedra"

and they don't do that much. But when Catholics say "It's only the pope's opinion," I think "Excuse me? Only the pope's opinion? He is the head of our Church, shouldn't we listen and consider his words carefully?" Not because he's perfect but because he has spent a lifetime studying, preaching, praying, worked against an oppressive regime in Poland, survived an assassination attempt and forgave his attacker. He's also pushed to canonize hundreds of new saints, many of them minorities or women, many of them laypersons, which is symbolic of the catholic nature of Catholicism. I'm not sure he's right about women in the priesthood, married priests, or the ban on contraception, but he deserves respect for the good he's done.

It's very odd that some ignore Pope John Paul II's warnings about the war and listen to him on other issues. He has talked about the culture of life for years (as far as I know, he originated the phrase, and Bush** definitely uses it for PavRovian effect.) But anyone who's paid attention to him knows that the culture of life includes much more than working to end abortion. It's more than working to end capital punishment and wars, too. It's working to end poverty, both of individuals and of nations. John Paul II has "afflicted the comfortable" with sermons and comments about the responsibilities of the rich to the poor. He's called for rich nations to forgive the debts of poor nations. Many hear only "stop abortion," though, which is sad. Ask them about all the babies killed in Iraq, some of them unborn babies killed in their mothers' wombs. What WOULD Jesus do?

Maybe Jesus wouldn't have voted for Kerry, but I really don't think He would have voted for Bush**.

[blondeatlast]

38. The Catholics I know that voted for Kerry (and there are lots)

are not shy about challenging Catholics they know who voted for Bush.

I think this is going to be a critical problem for the Church.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. I don't know that it will be

a critical problem for the Church, but I'm ready for a "Don't blame me, I voted for Kerry" bumpersticker and button (or better yet, "Don't blame me, I never voted for a Bush" -- always loved the "I didn't vote for his daddy, either" stickers.)

[sangh0]

71. I also think it's goig to be a big problem for The Church

I know many Catholics who, while passionate about the abortion issue, continue to vote Dem because they're not one-issue voters, and they are upset at how the TheoCons are exploiting their congregation's religious beliefs for political gain.

[Cobalt Violet]

11. I hope you were able to shower afterwards.

Are they all draftable age? :evilgrin:

[noiretextatique]

14. the catholic woman has a son in the navy

jack would never get past "don't ask, don't tell" because he's so flaming, and the vietnamese woman has a 16 year old son, so perhaps she will have the oppotunity to offer him up to her president soon.

i had two brandys, an aspirin, and a shower. let's see if i have a job tomorrow :D

[Leilani]

13. Very interesting post

& what it goes to show is that most people don't vote on issues...they go on gut reaction.

And sorry to say, they didn't like Kerry. And I think it was partly because of the campaign that was run against him, & partly it was just him.

He didn't connect with people.

People who are well informed on issues voted for Kerry, or Bush because of selfishness...taxcuts.

[shraby]

15. Actually how COULD Kerry connect with people?

The television media virtually shut him out, and if they did happen to show him at a rally, they put Bush up in the corner and you could hear Bush talk, or they would give Kerry maybe 1 minute while the commentator talked over him, then give Bush about 3-5 minutes of uninterrupted campaign speech.

[Leilani]

21. If people had an ounce of brains

& watched the first debate, they would have been Kerry voters.

Dubya was downright scary!

Which just goes to show, people just go with their gut.

[noiretextatique]

17. funny thing is...none seemed to like bush very much either

as a friend told me, they just hate liberals. and of course, they believe:
--iraq was responsible for 911
--iraqis weren't "free" until we started killing them
--iraqi women were being shot in the street for breathing
--whatever america does must be good because we are so good
--we can't know everything, so even though our intelligence tells us something (like hussein had no WMDs, out government must have some "other information" that they can't tell us...so
the war none of them support must have been justified

yeah...faux told them they didn't like kerry...or teresa:
so it MUST BE TRUE.

[Leilani]

25. I believe that...

I think about 25% of Bush voters are fanatical right wing fundies who love him.

About 25% are very well informed investor class people who don't give a damn if the country goes to hell in a handbasket, as long as they get more tax cuts.

And about 50% don't know the issues real well, just vote on feelings or habits, or gut reaction.

[noiretextatique]

27. i can't argue with that ...seems about right

except their guts and habits are more faux's than their own.

[m berst]

24. that is great noiretblu

I think there is something else going on under the surface. I have been having intense discussions with Bush voters, not arguing or debating, just talking to try to learn what is motivating them.

I have come to the conclusion that Bush is tapping into something very strange in people's minds, like masochism, or bloodlust, or a death wish or something. They know it is wrong, but they do it anyway, almost as though they can't control themselves, or are programmed to.

They are also sheepish, defensive and acting a little guilty, like you caught them indulging a secret fetish for chocolate or something. And they don't care if they come across as half-hearted and unpersuasive to me.

[noiretextatique]

26. i felt like a schoolteacher scolding 3 disruptive students

i tried not to be too "elistist" by giving them information, so i just kept asking questions. i agree with your assessment...they know there is no jusitification for their choice, at least not one they can explain without using code language, which tells me they generally speak to others just like them.
a secret indulgence indeed. the republicans are expert at appeals to the basest instincts of their susceptible flock...it's like they are under the influence of a drug. they know their jusifications aren't real, but they are under the influence, so it seems real (even though they know it's just the drug). i think republiclones make people feel comfortable being stupid, racist, etc, etc, etc...but their own hearts betray them.

[m berst]

32. something I noticed about Bush way back

Back in 98 when I first heard Bush speak on the radio it stopped me dead in my tracks. I think there is some sort of hypnotic effect going on there that most of us are immune to, but that resonates at some deep level for people. Sounds strange I know, but when I first heard him speak there was something about the cadence, the rhythm and the delivery that gave me the creeps and I instantly thought that this man is dangerous.

Has anyone else ever noticed the odd phrasing and odd cadence to his speaking? I know that he is coached by a pro - a preacher whom I actually heard speak and met many years ago and talked with for a few hours, Doug Wead. I think that Bush is coached in his delivery with a combination of Amway mind control techniques (Wead is a big Amway leader) and in Evangelical code language and signals.

Doug Wead back then (1986) was heavily interested in various forms of mind control and hypnotic techniques for persuading people, and was a powerful and persuasive speaker himself. When he and I talked over coffee, we talked about the sub-conscious, hypnosis, and persuasive sales techniques and crowd control. I didn't discover until a couple of weeks ago that the same guy - Doug Wead - is Bush's "coach" for speaking and voice.

[FlaGranny]

52. My husband HATES bush-speak.

He calls it speaking in poetry. In a way, although it is not actual poetry, he is right, and yes I've noticed it too. It might be that some people are susceptible to this in some way.

[sangh0]

72. It's "speaking in metaphor"

which is close to poetry. Things like "Freedom is on the march" Everyone knows that Freedom has no legs, so how can it march?

It's nonsensical, but things like that go deep into our psyches because we use metaphors in our thoughts all the time. We think of our nation as "a family", our life style choices as "a path", etc

[FlaGranny]

104. None of those things apply

to me or my husband. We're on no "path" - we just live our lives. Our "family" is not the nation. And speaking in metaphor drives us nuts. I don't believe we think in them either. Maybe we're weird or something. Is that the difference between "us" and "them"? I wonder.

[MsTryska]

55. Well doesn't that jsut take the cake....

i wouldn't be surprised. plus the close ties this administration and the religious right has been keeping with the moonies, (who own the washington times AND the UPI) has had me wondeing about mind control for awhile.

it's jsut strange that so man people in various parts of the country use the same verbiage to make their talking points. that creeps me out more than anything else. I can understand people having similar thought son a matter, but i expect them to each explain it in their own way. Not this repetitive zombielike language.

[noiretextatique]

63. it IS creepy...the same language, the same lies

the one thing that left me speechless: "i don't like teresa kerry because she is french" :wow:

a complete fabrication, but combining a few memes. the ugliness of the rw mind control program: no need to think, just repeat the same language like a zombie.

i felt like donald sutherland in the remake of "invasion of the body snatchers" last night. at least they haven't gottn me yet :scared:

[MsTryska]

64. Just don't watch the mainline media

and hopefully you'll be safe too.

or just watch little bits of it to see what the leatest talking points are.


and don't forget to listen to air america. that's the only talk radio allowed! *lol*

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. I first noticed it during my Christmas 2001 visit to

my mother and stepfather. A friend of my stepfather's was over for dinner, and all of a sudden, out of the blue, he said, "You know, I think that Bush has really grown into his job as president since 9/11."

Me and my big mouth, I said, "Where do you get that idea?"

He looked a little startled and said, "Oh, I don't know."

The more I consider the hold that Bushboy has on some people, the more I think that his Moonie connections are proving useful.

[noiretextatique]

90. god, it's sickening, isn't it?

he got it from the many pundits and media whores who repeated that meme, and others mindlessly. by osmosis, people pick up this crap and incorporate it as truth.
grew into the job...and he still goes to bed at 9:30pm every night :eyes:

[m berst]

93. there is something to it, I think

I often wonder, with 30 years of widespread popularity of various self-actualization programs and seminars and techniques, if somehow many people's interactions have become artificial and contrived. Hypnosis techniques, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, and all kinds of stuff has been steadily fed into various organizations for developing "winning strategies" and persuasive pitches and effective motivation and on and on.

Maybe Bush is mechanically acting out signals and cues every minute that he is in public. I think that could be why he is so flustered when he is in an unscripted situation. I think perhaps every word and every gesture and posture is a carefully rehearsed act that is designed to appeal to people at a level below their critical thinking. When I read an interview with Doug Wead recently (I will see if I can dig up a link) where he was describing how he coaches Bush in how to "give signs" to the born again community, it occurred to me that this would explain how he could be so awkward, so stiff and unnatural, and yet no one seems to notice that and no one cares that he is, and they respond to him as though he were the greatest public speaker ever. If he were focusing on technique, it would also explain all of the botched words and phrases. The words are just sounds that go along with the act, and that stimulate certain emotions and responses in people, they aren't supposed to make sense.

"It's hard." That's all. "It's hard." No context, no meaning, no explanation, yet no questioning of it by the audience! "It's hard" must have tested favorably with the focus groups, and it probably doesn't matter if it makes any sense or is even delivered well. "It's hard" somehow enters people's minds and is persuasive without them realizing that they are being persuaded.

I think we are watching one of the greatest and most skillful liars and deceivers in history, and I think the lying is all rehearsed and programmed in advance for maximum effect. I think he is intentionally and knowingly using a set of tested and complex hypnotic techniques on the people.

Great charismatic leaders from the past were seemingly born with the natural ability to move and persuade people. Adolph Hitler is a famous example of a mesmerizing and captivating speaker. Bush is certainly not one of those people. But there has been 50 years now of intense study to discover what the elements of this persuasiveness are, to organize them into a system and consistently duplicate them, to field test them on the public, and to teach them to people who can then mechanically apply them to persuade and motivate people. It has been widespread in the business and sales world for 30 years, and Amway - Doug Wead's training ground - has been a pioneer in adapting the systematic use of hypnotic techniques for sales pitches.

I know this sounds far-fetched, and I am just feeling my way through it and speculating a lot here, so YMMV.

[noiretextatique]

96. but...he doesn't seem to have that effect on us

:D but i never watch him or listen to him, so i think you are on to something. he reminds me a lot of reagan actually...another one who i couldn't believe the american people would fall for, but of course, they did x2. i have absolutely no doubt that your theory is valid; not far-fetched at all. it's definitely worthy of further discussion. i'd love to see you start a thread about it. thanks for all your great comments and observations.

[m berst]

97. really glad you raised this issue

It has been rattling around in my brain for a long time. I think I will do a little bit of research on this. I remember that Amway distributes 30-40 books to their distributors that deal with various mind control and persuasiveness techniques, and I would like to get a list of those. I know that there is a strong connection between various self-help programs of the mind control type, Evangelical business groups, Amway, and the Republican party. RNC people have often talked about applying "scientific" marketing ideas to politics, but I never put two and two together until now. Each component seems (relatively) benign when seen in isolation, but could make for a volatile mix.

Connections between the Bush family and the founders of Amway are also strong and long standing. And as I said, Doug Wead, a very successful Amway distributor, an Assembly of God preacher, and a motivational speaker and seminar leader has been acting as a personal coach to the president.

[vision]

67. Thom Hartman talked about that

He mentioned how people learn and relate three different ways 1) visuallly 2) verberally and 3) physically. Bush uses words that appeals to all three styles and as a result is more able to sway some that would not be swayed otherwise. Hartman explained it better than I could but imo that is the basic point.

[paulk]

105. my wife is a certified hypnotherapist

at a class she took a few years ago the teacher pointed out Bush's speaking style as a classic hypnotic technique -

It's definately a planned out thing, and the Wead connection is confirmation...

[Selatius]

28. Many people ***don't think*** that much when it comes to politics

More immediate concerns such as one's job or the bills at the end of the month are in their heads. They have to choose to look beyond that at the big picture, and then they have to spend time researching the issues when they do decide to look beyond.

As a result of not bothering to care much, they fall back on simple memes that have been propagated. Noiretblu hit upon many of the memes that have been successfully propagated by the Republican apparat.

What needs to be done is to provoke people to stop and think, to look around. We also need to refine our message and start broadcasting a truly populist message that speaks to the workers of America and to those who care about the environment and health care and education in this country.

Many people are socially tolerant by some degrees and favor some mix of socialism and capitalism (mixed economy). They just don't know it yet. Many people would favor common sense regulation of free markets to the extent to prevent monopolization and abuse of workers and the environment and would favor intervention where markets cannot adequately address the problem (public education, health care, etc.).

[noiretextatique]

62. i agree...populist message is needed

we have to convince people that rw policies are not just affecting someone else. for all their talk about "freeing the iraqi people"...none of these people really supported the war! they had all the hussein memes in place, and they were totally misinformed about life in iraq, pre US. they confused the taliban and fundamentalists with hussein, and of course they thought he was responsible for 911.
these people were not hard-core freeper types, and they are not evil people...that's why i call them bushbots. they don't *really* believe what they are saying...it's like they are playing a tape.

you said it best:
"What needs to be done is to provoke people to stop and think, to look around."

thanks for your post, Selatius.

[hfojvt]

30. some similar themes

like "it really does not matter who is President." Indeed, for all my rage about the Bush agenda, my life does not seem any different than it was in 2000. I live now in a "prison town" and nobody here seems concerned about the growth of the prison industrial complex. So a concentration camp might not seem like a big deal either, and so far those are only in Cuba or Iraq.

A co-worker that I knew voted for Bush, was listing things she hated, and one of them was "liars". She seemed quite certain that Bush was not really a liar, but did not bother to defend him. Instead she launched on a litany of complaints about Kerry. I am not sure if those came from mass media or the internet. She finally said she would rather have had a 3rd choice, but she probably meant McCain, and not any other Democrat.

[noiretextatique]

43. the liar meme came up

also the theme that both candidates were bad, and there should have been a third choice. when i mentioned bush's lies about iraq, they fell back on the "oh, the government knows more than they can tell us"...very big brotherish.
when i comment on kerry's military service i always say: "what the republicans did in attempting to tarnish the man's service to his county was disgraceful and outrageous, even more so since bush, cheney and the rest all got deferrments of went awol."
they really have no defense for that truth...not even the swiftboat liars change the fact that kerry served his country, while bush was snorting coke, and cheney was getting deferrments.

[newyawker99]

50. Hfojvt!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Lexingtonian]

33. yeah, sounds sadly typical

I try not to talk politics with people I don't know, but for the past year people have been rather adamant about telling me their political views anyway. And I've heard this kind of thing over and over again.

The pattern is: they agree with the sensible Democratic policy positions all the way down the line, in effect, and then in the end there'd be an irrational, inane, 'reason' to find Kerry unacceptable. The 'reason' would be one of the dumber Bush crew ones, obviously hollow, and yet they'd cling to it and refuse to examine it and go into denial about it, even the whole of it (they will pretend that the Republicans's platform is the liberal one), if you really decided to test them.

I decided after a while that the root of it is/was fear. It was that despite Iraqumire, despite recession, despite the middle class getting screwed, they feel too much of something was being risked by voting for Kerry. They want things to be better, but voting for Bush was to vote for something that seemed certain even if not much good. I've been trying to get at what the 'something' is ever since. Terror, Values/Christian Nation, the Old Establishment, the Old Order, White Privilege...none of it really gets at the essential thing.

But what these people with their nonsensical political stance were telling me was clear from the start. They are afraid of what the future holds and they wanted efforts at Change put off for another two to four years. The past four or so years has changed America's role from an indispensible, prosperous, and pioneering society in the world to a flailing one, and thereby made the average American's pains and efforts that much less worthwhile and important. Bush has promised to remedy all that by being "strong" and demanding of everyone to be "strong" and not rock the boat. Kerry wanted an overhaul.

I'm still trying to figure out where exactly the political capital came from that made the Bush 'message' more plausible to these people than the Kerry one. That's my real puzzlement with it at this point.

[noiretextatique]

56. "let him finish what he started"

"it's only 4 years" "there haven't been any terrorist attacks" " the iraqi people are free" etc, etc, etc...

and the funny thing: all three are against the war. it is puzzling that not one of them could tell me WHY they voted for bush...it was clear they didn't know.

fear...i am not sure it is fear. it seem to me that these folks had a perverse feeling of satisfaction; that they were thumbing their noses common sense, decency, and most of all progress and change. but i didn't get their basic motivation was fear.

it seemed more like getting pleasure from being willfully ignorant and being in denial. i mean really...they couldn't even justify their positions to themselves, let alone me. they are so used to being validated by spouting bs like "i hate teresa because she's french." they were really shocked by the intensity of my reaction to them...like i was exposing something that they were ashamed about.

i liken them to people i know who are in denial about personal issues...they know in the truth in their hearts, but they punish he people who tell them the truth.

i think these folks punished kerry for that reason.

[xchrom]

34. republicans = the minority party

right wingers have been very successful at describing them selves as the party under attack -- the party that is really in step with ''the people''.
some things about your description strike me:
i'm not surprised about the viet namese woman -- i was raised around the china hill area in oakland and found viet namese immigrants to often be very conservative politically and issues of taxation often get a lot of attention. and issues of war with them were dicey -- it's obvious that the war in viet nam has left a good deal of ambivalence in a community that is heavily mixed with some very right wing/nationalist feelings.
the closeted gay man -- well that's almost painful -- he has fallen for an idea of the world that never existed and would sell his soul to be included as mainstream -- something that will elude even past his dying breath.
the prolife woman -- well what can you say -- these people don't vote based on rational thinking.
she ''believes'' kerry and ergo his supporters are ''bad''.
and she will believe the weakest straw man evidence to support her continued belief.
you have a way with words -- noiret -- your experience left me -- i don't know feeling something very strage -- alienated?
which is something that has been coming up for me since the election.
if canada works out for you -- i wish you the best.

[noiretextatique]

53. hey xchrom...i didn't know you were from here

i live near the piedmont area now. the vietnamese woman was the worst of the lot. she is the one who kept saying the goverment has information about iraq that justitified the war, and even though she is against the war, she thought the government must have a good reason for the war, etc, etc, etc. i believe that's called circular reasoning. she was also saying that america is "good" and was bringing democracy to the people of iraq. when i told them that pre-US, women in iraq had more freedom than in most arab countries, they refused to believe it. before that, she was telling us about her deceased mother's obsession with sin, so i imagine she came by her views honestly.
and the gay guy...a totally frivilous dimwit. he kept saying most of his family voted for bush, and that he just didn't like the way people talked about the president...after all, he IS the president.
and that's when i brought up the first stolen election, and he and the vietnamese woman agreed that bush stole the election...so, i aksed again:
WHY DID YOU VOTE FOR HIM?
and that's when they decided to leave. nice people, but good god, not one fucntioning brain between the three of them.
living in this area, i rarely run into these type of bushbots. i have tangled with a few pro-warriors, but they are nostly of the libertarian variety, so we have some common ground.
thanks for your post, and your kind words.
i am sorry if i contributed to your feelings of alienation, but unlike a lot of people here, i rarely encounter bush voters. i am considering moving to canada, or elsewhere, for a lot of reasons. these folks certainly did nothing to change my mind.

[auburngrad82]

40. It just shows how effective the GOP is at framing their message

Their message hits people and people believe it. That's what we progressives need to work on.

To right-wingers Strength is more important than Honesty.

We need to use the GOP tactics of framing our message so that it resonates with their beliefs. For instance, the woman that opposes abortion may be surprised that abortions actually increased under Bush and that the best ways to reduce abortions is to improve healthcare for expectant mothers and to fix the economy so that people can have kids without having to feel they can't afford to have one.

[noiretextatique]

45. bush has the media to repeat his memes

people talk here talk a lot about rathergate, but look at what happened with the swiftboat crap. i think democratts have to come up with a different tactic because the rw's message is orwellian...it's all a pack of lies. the difference is: they have faux, and others, to spread those lies.
we are going to have to do what i did last night...counter the lies with the truth, which cannot be done with soundbites. hearts and minds will not change by simply adopting the propaganda techniques of the rw...people just won't listen, or care.
when i told them kerry won all three debates, on style and substance, their answer: :shrug: oh, who cares about debates anyway.
each one, teach one...i am afraid THAT is our mission.

[newportdadde]

42. I feel your pain.

Sorry you had a rough evening but most of us have been there. Want to know what my friends use when I ask them why they support Bush...

"I don't want to pay more taxes, liberals raise taxes."

"We haven't been attacked since 9/11 so Bush is keeping us safe."

"Better fighting them over there then here on our soil."


UGH.

[Booster]

44. This is a topic that really upsets me also. Whenever I would

come across someone who said they were going to vote for Bush, I would say incrediously "Why". All I ever got was a blank stare or even "I don't know". If things are as bad as they can get in this country and you have no reason to vote for someone, WHY IN THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU VOTE FOR CHANGE? I don't understand it and never will.

[noiretextatique]

57. really...how screwed do we have to be

before people wake the hell up? i am afraid of the answer.

[leftofthedial]

46. Typically ignorant Murkans

Fucking cretins in this country.

Maybe the cataclysmic global pain and grief we are going through is some sort of Gaian natural selection process to ultimately get the "morans" out of the gene pool.

[noiretextatique]

47. when they said they didn't like teresa because she was "french"

i didn't bother correcting that....i was too digusted by then.

[blm]

49. It always comes down to the media and the extent they DON'T DO THEIR JOB.

It didn't matter whether the NYT, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune or Nightline debunked the antiKerry stories using actual documentation and accurate quotes. Most of the BROADCAST media only trumpeted the lies over and over again for months and kept the truth in a closet.

[MsTryska]

51. isn't it creepy?

i really fear brainwashing - but i can't figure out where it's coming form.



3 diverse people - no explanation for their bush vote or dislike for kerry.


i have a friend that's worrying me too. he's a libertairan and he voted libertarian. I have lawyas known him to not buy into the media's views on anything. overall a very rational, only the facts-type of individual.

for the last few weeks he ahs been spouting the anti-kerry talking points.

i keep asking him what he's listening to for news these days, but he always changes the subject.

[noiretextatique]

54. see post #32...and tell me what you think

boy...they had all the memes, including the "french" thing. i could understand why the vietnamese woman might have some ill will against the french, but i don't think she was that "deep."
they reminded me of parrots. everytime i shot down one of their fauxisms, they came up with another one.
another fascinating thing: how much the women disliked teresa, and both of them are professional women :shrug: i just didn't get it.

[buddhamama]

59. similar...

to conversations I have had with Bush voters since the election.

The worst though, imo, are the voters who have responded thus "it's his mess he needs to clean it up" when asked why they voted for Bush.

WTF!

hey Lady, i too have been contemplating a move. we could be moving buddies :-)

[noiretextatique]

60. let's do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seriouslly...i have been looking into the requirements for their skilled worker program, and i qualify. i have been reseaching this since 2000, but not really as seriously as i am now. i have a ton of information about opportunities in my profession, which is very regulated in canada, and that's actually a plus for me. if i can pass the licensing test...that would give me an advantage.
i just found out the company i'm working for is building a site in Rome, Italy, so maybe i'll hold off until that is finished. i could brush up on my italian in the meantime :D

"it's his mess and he needs to clean it up"...DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
great...a 2 year old spills his soda all over the floor..just give him a mop and make him clean it up....DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnnyrocket]

65. ITS THE MEDIA STUPID! And its the media making people...

stupid!

So sad, I've seen those same things, it's indoctrination, drilling, propaganda, and subliminal.

The GOP is a force to be reckoned with...their fascist mantra becomes 'reality' to the uninformed and malleable masses.

[noiretextatique]

66. yep...clearly that is the case

and the cure is to stop listening. except of course, if you are surrounded by other brain-eating zombies...

[johnnyrocket]

92. I'm immune!! I took the blue pill.

I have a grasp on reality and know reality of the criminals who have taken over the government.

[PATRICK]

102. The Dems reinforce the circle

THEY buy into the media opinion making by saying they have to go where those poor people's heads are at, besides getting too much a dose of that claptrap themselves.

We all have e felt it. Each time we watch the news we feel pulled to trust at least part of what they say even if we feel ourselves the 'wise consumer". Too late, poison in, crap out. We lose confidence, buy into part of it, get swept along and lose confidence in our innately and infinitely superior common sense- which the TV and radio drain away like we came in for an oil change.

None of this RW garbage is sustainable without the media themselves. ALL of their worst agendas and atrocities are LIKELY because they flow with the bullies and herd the sheep.

[GoSolar]

68. Randi said the same thing yesterday.

People who voted for Bush can't even say why they did so.

[From the south]

70. Some things people on DU just don't get Bush voters reasoning

Regarding whether Bush can be trusted.

For some people its just a feeling, the fact is, at some level Bush connected with people in ways Kerry didn't seem to.

Regarding whether Bush is stupid.

Regardless of whether he is or not. Calling him stupid rubs many people the wrong way; kind of like calling someone who is mentally retarded a retard, its true, but its not right.

Regarding the Vietnamese lady.

Many Vietnamese hate the French, they were a French colony for quite a while, also, many Vietnamese in the US had family high up in the S Vietnam government, they didn't see the US as invaders

[noiretextatique]

76. reality

1) bush can't be trusted...he's a proven liar. when i asked them how they felt about the WMDs lies, they brushed that off as "oh there must have been some OTHER reason."

2) bush IS an idiot. if we were talking about a dogcatcher, i could see your point...but we are talking about the POTUS.
still, the closted gay man did say he did't like people disrepecting the dumbass by calling him an idiot.
i called him an idiot precisely because i knew it would rub them the wrong way...my point: YOU voted for a MORAN...so what are you? the new "minority": people who vote for idiots who lose debates, and are proud of it. then of course, the debates didn't *really* matter.

3) teresa ISN'T FRENCH, a small fact i didn't bother to correct while the two women were going on about how much they didn't like her BECAUSE SHE IS FRENCH.

[From the south]

79. You miss my point

1) Bush connected with people in ways Kerry didn't, and some still trust him.

2) some people are offended by name calling, regardless of whether its true or not. I feel a lack of civility on both sides demeans all of us.

3) The lady believed she was French, I was explaining why your argument to a Vietnamese woman didn't work

[noiretextatique]

80. civility? get real

there is NO WAY i am going to pretend to be civil about a sociopath like bush. i confront these people with the TRUTH about him whether they like it or not. it's not like it's some BIG SECRET that he's lacking in brain department...even they know it.

i am not sure bush "connected" with anyone...faux news and the rest told them he connected with them.
c'mon..."bush is likeable" is another meme.

she "believes" she is french...but she isn't french, is she?
i think she got a few of her fauxisms mixed up.

[m berst]

98. I have spent hours and hours on this

I have spoken extensively with quite a few Bush voters. There isn't any reasoning going on. I don't mean that as a slam against them, just an observation. This includes family and friends, in calm, far reaching and non-argumentative discussions. I would suspect that very, very few people are having these kinds of conversations across the aisle, because I am learning things that are quite different than the "reasons" I see thrown around in the 3 ring circus that passes for our national political discussion these days.

The reasoning that is going on has to do with rejecting Kerry, not supporting Bush. Bush has a strange emotional hold on people. It is not good, and it will not come to good for them or for us. No one I have talked to has any enthusiasm for the man. They get sad far way vague looks on thgeir faces when I ask them for the reasons they voted for Bush. Something is going on. I suspect that Bush people are enormously conflicted and confused.

They are clear in their reasoned opposition to Kerry, and that I understand completely, although it is difficult to explain to people here. There is a strnge miror reflection going on - we all vote for not-Bush, they all vote for not-Kerry.

But support for Bush? For them to question that requires a self-examination that threatens their whole world view, I think. On some level, they are rejecting Bush the way that the body rejects a transplanted organ, but their reasoning hasn't caught up with that yet. So they voted for Bush partly to resolve this inner tension - as if to see where it will take them, and they are draw to him like a moth to the flame.

They are in something of a semi-hypnotic state. They stare off into the air when you ask them about him, as though they are running the images of him and his words in like a tape or a movie in their minds. Something doesn't add up, and they feel that. But what? They are still struggling to understand.

I have been around politics for 35 years, and I have never seen voters act this way about a candidate they support. Something is different. It has a mystical, religious quality to it, but it is not peaceful.

I think they know Bush better than we do. I think they have a growing awareness that something is off, and I think they have a lot more certainty about things like the stolen election than we do because they are closer to it - they can feel it in their bones. I think they are afraid to talk to liberals about it.

Again, I am just feeling my way through this, and this is mere rambling and impressions on my part.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. Somebody on a mailing list posted a study of undecided voters

which found that they were essentially clueless. There was little correlation between their stands on the issues and their eventual vote. They didn't know where the candidates stood, and in some cases, didn't even know that their main concerns were covered by politics. For example, they might believe that a person working full time should be able to meet his or her basic needs, but they would have no idea that poilticians set the minimum wage. In the end, they voted for the candidate they found more likable.

(I don't remember where the article was from, since the people on that list don't always post links.)

[noiretextatique]

78. is bush likeable? or have they been told he's likeable?

i know i am biased, but i don't see anything likeable about *...at all. her's dumb and simple-minded, or "not curious," as some like to say, mean-spirited, inarticulate, lacks compassion, a proven liar, etc, etc, etc.
i think a part of his so-called "likeability" is that people don't believe he will harm them...as long as it's the carla faye tucker's and islamists he massacres...who really cares?
ted bundy was really likeable too, according to some. i am sure there is someone, somewhere who still believes he was innocent.
bush's so-called "likeability" is yet another meme the media has been repeating...until people actually believe it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. Compared to Kerry, he's non-threatening

When Studs Terkel spoke at the last college I taught at, someone asked him to explain Reagan's popularity.

Terkel's answer was, "Because he made it okay to be stupid. Stupid people recognized him as one of their own."

(The president of the college was chair of the county Republican party, and you should have seen the look on his face.)

I can't think of any better explanation. It's been my experience that stupid people feel threatened by intelligent people and want to tear them down.

[noiretextatique]

82. i get that...no need to clarify

i got the same impression last night. bush is cunning with his act, and though not as intelligent as reagan, he does the humble idiot act well. he reminds of two abusive men i know...one was married to my sister, and the other is married to my friend. they both paly the humble act in public, but in private...it's a totally different thing.

[arewenotdemo]

99. Exactly! And thank Goddess for Studs Terkel.

All the idiots that voted for Bush knew that Kerry was the superior candidate in every conceivable way: more intelligent, more competent, and more interested in the job.

It's all about our anti-intellectual culture and a confederacy of dunces.

That and the fear factor. I wouldn't discount that.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

74. LOL......

....I love it how the gay guy voted against Kerry because he hates him, then said he's up set people hate Bush and call him an idiot....ah, the mind of a hypocrite.

[FubarFly]

83. In my experience, people like this are motivated by fear.

And through the powers of media enhancement, they see Bush, or more specifically the GOP establishment, as offering strong protective leadership.

This is why reason and logic won't work. When people are afraid, they are extremely cautious about embracing change. Unless you get at the heart of their anxieties, you'll never change their minds.

This is the line of argument I've been using to make inroads:

Bush has followed the biggest intelligence disaster in our nation's history, (9/11), with our second biggest intelligence disaster, (The Iraq War). He was so proud and stubborn that he never took proper responsibility, so he never got to the root of the problem. Maybe he means well, but gross incompetence isn't going to keep you safe.

At this point I am usually forced to defend Kerry. And it's here where I see the damage the Swift Boat liars did to his reputation. Kerry relied too heavily on image, and not enough on substance.
Or, to put it more directly, his message wasn't consistent or concise enough to assuage people's fears.

[noiretextatique]

84. didn't work...she dimissed the intelligence community as follows

you can't really trust what the cia or fbi says about iraq or 911 because bush, inc probably had information that they didn't want to share with us, or them...for our own good.
she believes that bush is working in the best interests of the american people...and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway her. just as she believes teresa kerry is french, and i doubt any information to the contrary will change that belief either.
fear...i am not sure i agree that fear is a the root of this delusion. in fact...it seemed to be the opposite of fear, and i don't think reason can touch that either, whatever it is.

[FubarFly]

87. I get you. But the reason she's not afraid is because she trusts

Bush. If she didn't believe Bush, she would be uncertain and thus fearful. Therefore she'll latch on to every possible irrational argument to maintain her faith.

The message I would continually push is this:

Bush means well, but he is too stubborn to correct his own mistakes.

In every area, on every issue, this is what I would go back to.

NCLB. The environment. Tax Cuts. He meant well, but...

You might not see the results right away, if at all, but sowing the seeds of doubt can't hurt. And to do that, I believe criticism works better if it is oft repeated and consistent.

Just my two cents.

[noiretextatique]

91. thanks...i will try it...another thing i find works

is to talk about how kerry served is country, regardless or all the swiftboat stuff. that he served, while the people who criticized him didn't is sad and disgraceful. that quieted them a little when i said it...it shamed them, but just for a moment.
i think clinton said something similar to what you are saying at the convention...they mean well, but they are misguided.
thanks for the tip.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

100. And we have to abide by the consequences of their stupidity

And these misinformed, stupid but too lazy to educate themselves, barnyard chickens ...I fantasize about slapping, neck wringing, bashing their heads together...

[AspenRose]

85. My father in law....same thing

He couldn't give ONE reason why he voted FOR Bush but could give a litany as to why he wasn't voting for Kerry...

"He's a flip-flopper" (and variations on the same theme, e.g. "He says one thing and does another, ergo he can't be trusted")
"He's the most liberal person in the senate, more liberal than Ted Kennedy"

That was all he could come up with. Straight from the "Liberal Media" talking points and Rush Limbaugh.

When I asked him about Bush's record, could we talk about THAT....


*cue chirping crickets*

[PassingFair]

109. Limbaugh

Bingo.
I'm in sales...many, many, many businesses that I went into in the year leading up to the election had Limpballs on the radio. Otherwise nice, hardworking people were listening to him spew EVERY DAY.

Can't understand where these memes are coming from?
What the?

...and then the tv "media" subtly or not so subtly repeats and verifies his flaming, ridiculous spew. Ever REALLY listen to him? We have been effectively demonized. That is why I went NUTS over the democratic party not spending their money on lawn signs and bumperstickers this election. If ever perception was an issue, it was in this election.
My coordinated campaign office told me "Lawn Signs Don't Vote" and similar crap. We needed to build a critical mass, and we failed. If MoveOn had begun the push to identify swing voters earlier in the cycle, we could have gotten signs out there and made people THINK. "If Wally likes Kerry, there must be something to him". "And look, Sam and Janet and Margaret have Kerry signs, too".
But NOOOOOOO! I was a precinct delegate and was told to try and BUY signs somewhere else. Not slamming on the people that worked the campaign, by the end, they were more disgusted than I was. At first they had suggested, rather patronizingly, that I have people over to "hand make their own signs". Yeah, that sends a strong signal to non-thinkers. Seems the only place that money WAS spent was when the party wanted to show that Kerry actually more WARLIKE than Bush! We will KILL the terrorists! Reporting for duty! SALUTE! But I digress...

The memes you have been noticing are all spouted non-stop by Limbaugh. In addition to Limbaugh, RELIGIOUS radio programming was equal to anything that Father Coughlin ever vomited into an airwave. And it was being broadcast all day, every day... Then backed up when they got to church. And when they turned on the 700 Club or Fox or CNN or ANY programming save C-Span.

We failed to make ourselves known. We let them define us as demons straight from hell. AAR was too little, too late. Hell, we STILL don't get AAR in my area.

[Threedifferentones]

86. My experience has been exactly the same

The people I know who voted for Bush cannot really explain why; often times they admit that all of my complaints about him are true, but they vote for him anyway. The most infuriating part about it is that they talk about politics with no passion, no conviction whatsoever as if it their vote is some kind of aethetic choice with no real consequences. I think it's time we face the facts: the fundies have brainwashed a signifigant part of the country by convincing them that they ARE America and that they are THE moral authority in the political arena, and they have done so by taking advantage of the fact that people in America seem to want to remain ignorant of what is actually going on in their country and the world. If we want to win elections we have to change this or figure out how to use it to our advantage.

3DO

[noiretextatique]

88. yeah...the asian woman kept saying

"well...it's only four years," as if she knew it coudl be 4 terrible years.
you know, they really made me think about why i voted FOR kerry and AGAINST bush. the AGAINST part is easy, and to be honest, it's more in consciousness than the FOR part...and heaven knows there are a myriad of reason to vote AGAINST bush.
but i did have one compelling reason to vote FOR kerry:
he was the best candidate in the race, with the best chance of winning. as much as they tried to equate the two...they both are terrible, i wish there was another choice, they really weren't that different, i didn't like either of them, and so on:
kerry stands head and shoulders over bush, in every way imaginable.

as much as some complain about how bush is "disrepected," it was kerry who was truly misrepresented, disrepected, maligned, etc.

[ScreamingMeemie]

107. Your post is scary in that it illustrates exactly how brainwashed the

American public really is. :scared:

[ibegurpard]

94. Depressing isn't it.

My otherwise intelligent, somewhat liberal FAUX News watching brother was telling me the other day that we turn off America because we have people like Michael Moore and George Soros "speaking" for us. Now, I know almost everyone knows who Michael Moore is but the only people who know who George Soros is are hardcore political junkies or people who watch a lot of FAUX News and listen to right-wing talk radio.
He was kind of at a loss when I started grilling him about where he had heard so much about George Soros and why he was such bad news. It's amazing to me that even INTELLIGENT people can be so gullible to this shit.

[Eurobabe]

95. I know a few of them too...

they are non-rational beings...

Skewed logic at its finest.

[paulk]

108. there was a post election Hart focus group showing on C-Span

Ohio voters - the breakdown was 6 -6 Republican and Democrat. Fascinating stuff (I watched it twice!)

One of the things that really stood out was how poorly informed the Bush voters were compared to the Kerry voters. Also their voting decisions (just like your three) were often made for petty or illogical reasons.

The most interesting part was the end, where the moderator told them to tell Bush what they wanted him to do for his second term. Most of the Bush people wanted a more bi-partisan approach, a reaching out to allys for help in Iraq and other things that struck me as things that Kerry had said in his campaign. I'm, of course, smashing my head into the wall and screaming - "If he didn't do it in the last four years, what makes you think he's going to do it now?"

There seemed to be some sort of major disconnect between who they thought Bush was and what he's actually done in office.

[muse]

110. I hear the same lame things from Bush voters here in Texas - not the

right wing fanatics, just the regular, educated, thinking people who should know better. It makes me realize how uphill this election was from the get go and how astounded we should all be that Kerry came as close to winning as he did.

[screembloodymurder]

111. Let's face it, these people are brainwashed.

They get their "news" from rightwing radio talk shows, FOX and other propaganda outlets. You can't reach these people unless you can change their media habits. I've noticed that my Bush supporting relatives are all people who rely on others to do their thinking. They have a cult mentality.

[politicasista]

112. Sadly ignorant people voted for Bush because....

Kerry like Clinton was going to try and help us African-Americans as far as jobs, affirmative action, healthcare, education, etc. Unfortunately, racism/race relation problems still exist. (but they will continue regardless of who's in the Oval Office).

[noiretextatique]

113. add to that: the gay marriage non-issue

they got a lot of mileage out of that too. wedge issues = divide and conquer. we have dicussed the no-so-subtle white/male/straight/xtian supremacist messages of the republican party ad nauseum here. unfortunately, these messages, some very direct, some subliminal, are very powerful because they tap into resentment about a perceived loss of power. i really got the sense from these folks that they knew the bush doctrine is harmful, but not to them. as long as bush, inc hurts some "other," poor, gay, black, muslim, women, indian, immigrant, non-xtian...somebody not like them, or rather not like the archetype of an "American," who cares? :shrug:
authoritarian types believe that in a "just world," people get what they deserve, so as long as its some "other" getting hurt...who cares?
stereotypes reinforce these beliefs, so one doesn't really have to THINK about the real people behind the stereotypes, or the social, political, historical, etc., context of current conditions.
the folks i talked to were against the war, for example, but they also believe the iraqis are "better off" now that we have devastated their country. and why? because they think "those people" are backwards and ignorant, and "culturally deprived" (remember that old meme from the early days of desegregation?) and "we"...the archetypal american, and his culture (white, male, xtian, straight, conservative, etc) are superior...to anything and anyone else.
perhaps one good thing about our current political mess...more of us are talking to each other.
i ran into someone the other night who proudly proclaimed that she couldn't bring herself to vote for either candidate. she didn't have much to say about bush, but she repeated the same idiotic memes about kerry as the three bush voters. i had to restrain myself so i wouldn't atrangle her, but at least she recognizes she has no right to complain about anything since she didn't participate.
i think our task is to remind people about our duties and responsibilities as citizens. it is not simply to look out for our own narrow interests, or to mindlessly support a madman, simple because he is already in office. i do not believe my three coworkers can honestly say that they voted for bush because they felt he was best for the country, all of its citizens, and the world.
it's time to bring some light to all the taboo subjects, religion, politics, sex, gender, race, etc...all the stuff one itsn't supposed to talk about in polite company.