Who is to the left of Kerry who can win?

[greenohio]

Thoughts?

[janx]

1. Those labels not only don't work anymore, they're hurting us.

We're in some deep trouble. It's not a matter of "left" or "right," "moderate" or "conservative"--or any of that.

We need someone who can reframe the debate and begin to talk about what really matters, and at the same time, someone who can inspire the electorate.

[genius]

28. Kucinich is now known and he won't quit on us

He's become a popular folk hero - a guy who will fight for us, no matter what the consequences to him. He won and came in second in states/territories towards the end of the primary season. The DU threads didn't focus on this. However, he will likely be the 08 nominee.

[Clarkie1]

31. HOW TO REFRAME THE DEBATE AND INSPIRE THE ELECTORATE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1375075&mesg_id=1375075

[Zynx]

2. Depends who they are running against.

If its someone relatively mainstream like Chuck Hagel or John McCain, then no one to the left of Kerry can win unless they have some maverick conservative positions to soften their liberal image.

[DU9598]

3. A few

Senator Tom Harkin
Senator Russ Feingold

Soon to be Governor Elliot Spitzer
Any other liberal Governor's? If Boxer would take out Arnold in CA she could be our nominee in 2008 or 2012.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Tom Harkin Couldn't Even Get Out Of The Early 92 Primaries...

and the big lib voted for DOMA and IWR...

[Cheswick2.0]

25. yeah and Kerry the big lib

voted for IWR, NCLB and the Patriot act. Feingold the big lib voted for Asscrack. Kennedy the big lib voted for the perscription drug plan. :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. and Jesse Jackson, Dick Gephardt, and Dennis Kucininch

started their careers as anti-choice candidates...

That's why litmus tests are like flypaper....

[Quixote1818]

4. Wes Clark

If you looked at Wes Clark's platform during the primary I believe he was to the left of Kerry but he could get away with it because he was a patriotic, southern, general who loved his country's and talked about Values constantly. Wes did the best with rural voters and won in Oklahoma because of his appeal to rural voters and conservative Democrats. Being a general he would automaticaly have an advantage because National Security will most certanly continue to be a huge issue in four years. In fact with Bush screwing things up Nat. Security will likely be a bigger issue.

Clark is great at talking about Liberal Values while at the same time showing they are American Values and conservative values are not patriotic. His message resinated with Rural conservative voters but Democrats for some reason did not trust him even though he was as liberal as Kerry and more liberal than Dean.

[greenohio]

6. I'm suspicious of Clark

because he essentially no record but war.

[Quixote1818]

10. Thats why I was suspicious of George Washington.

[xkenx]

16. Clark the Progressive

Clark's responsibilities when he had hundreds of thousands under his command included career advancement, education, civil rights,health care, social issues, dependents, as if he were a governor of a state.
When he commanded the National Training Center in (I think) Colorado,
he even won environmental awards. The most significant criticisms of him by others in the military was that he didn't stick to the "by the book" war image. Also, most of Clark's career was during
peace. In the runup to Iraq, Clark was arguing for diplomacy first. People should take a good look at Clark before labeling him.

[Quixote1818]

23. Awesome Post! Clark had many of the responsibility's a Governor would have

[Clarkie1]

30. Kerry's record really helped him a lot; shows your ignorance of Clark

[fujiyama]

35. Clark

was the only candidate other than Kucinich to advocate cutting the defense budget.

The reason he can credibly to that is because he's worked on the inside. He's seen the waste and the graft that goes on.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I Love Clark But I Wish He Would Change His Mind On The God Awful Flag

Burning Amendment...


I can live with it but little things like that irk me because I really believe in the Bill Of Rights.....

And both Kerr(e)ys opposed it in the Senate....

[Quixote1818]

14. Thats the only thing I disagree with Clark on. I think he feels he must

take that stance. A general for burning the flag? It would seem a little strange to people in the middle and the military. You know he will never put up an amendment to actually do it. Not an issue worth worrying about because it will never be brought up.

[greenohio]

18. President has little to do the process anyway

Amendments pass congress and then go to the states. The president doen't sign it.

[xkenx]

19. WHY?

That's the way he feels about the flag for which he shed blood.
Many decent people feel that flag burning is no more freedom of speech that mischievously shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.
Methinks Clark's stand will pick up votes where we need them.

[Quixote1818]

21. Yep, a Democrat who is against burning the flag and is liberal on every

other issue is the perfect candidate to pick up conservative voters. He finds the perfect tone to apeal to rural moderate conservatives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. There's A Difference Between Burning A Flag

and yelling fire in a crowded theater...


Burning the flag is a legitimate form of expression which I would never partake in and yelling fire in a crowded theater creates an imminent danger because people will run out in an unorganized mass and folks will get trampled...

It's not a deal breaker for me but I take the Bill Of Rights very seriously....

Also, Bob Kerrey won the Medal of Heart while losing his leg for the country and saw fit to vote against the Amendment and so did another war hero by the name of John Kerry...

The right to disagree shouldn't just be limited to the things don't really matter...

[kodi]

17. he was and will remain so, and is less beholden to big business than kerry

clark effectively pointed out that the military is a socialist organization and extending that type of organization and the way it delivers services to its members to the nation as a whole would be beneficial.

[skylarmae]

5. Must fix bbv! Must fix bbv! Must fix bbv! Must fix bbv!

Must fix e-voting! Must fix e-voting! Must fix e-voting!

Must have verifiable paper trail! Must have verifiable paper trail! Must have verifiable paper trail! Must have verifiable paper trail!

[emulatorloo]

7. How do you know Kerry didn't win?

If Kerry won Ohio or Florida, he woulda won. I am not yet prepared to say he didn't win either of those states.

OTOH please review this study re Bush Voters, which in summary finds, that they believe to this day Saddam did 9/11, and that we found WMDs. And that Bush is a friend of international law and treaties. Short and worth a read:

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html

Supplementary cartoon:

[greenohio]

8. I never said Kerry didn't win....

but he hasn't been declared a winner either.

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. First you post in threads defending Kerry...then you post in threads

attacking Kerry. Then you start a thread wanting to know who we can run who is "more left" than Kerry. Confused? :hi:

[greenohio]

15. Do you read my posts?

I wanted to vote Green. Everybody told me.... vote for a winner even though they don't exactly match what you believe. I voted for John Kerry. It looks like John Kerry is very unlikely to become president. He certainly didn't win in a landslide.

So I am offering dialogue where we go next. My gut reaction is do what has worked....the Clinton model. Apparently theres a bunch who blame Clinton and the DLC for our losses. I think that is a bunch of BS but I am listening. So now I am listening to see who else there is.

I don't think running another Kerry-like candidate will produce a winner.

In the end, if I can stomach the candidate and theres a shot to win, I'll vote Dem. If I can't stomach them, I'll vote green.

[JI7]

13. did people ever find out Kerry's opposition to the death penalty ?

i was waiting for that one to be asked during one of the debates.but it was never asked.

it was actually asked in a primary debate and he answered it very well. it probably went over well with democratic party voters. but i wonder how it would have gone over with the general population.

[Julien Sorel]

20. Howard Dean is to the left of Kerry. Or is he to the right of Kerry?

It seems to change every hour, according to whatever point his supporters want to make, so I'm a little confused on that point.

Anyway, Dean will be unbeateable once he gets out of the crooked primaries.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. so sorry you don't get it

you are still stuck in this meaningless right left continuem. Is it really so hard to understand that someone can be left on some issues and moderate or conservative on others?

The point is not about who is more right or left. It's about right and wrong and standing up for what you believe in. Wellstone got the support of many conservative in his state because he was authentic and honest. They liked him even if they didn't agree with him because they saw him as having principals.

Once you "get it", you too may understand what has been going wrong with the party. Or you may just like losing. :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

22. right left right left right left

when will your learn it is not about right or left?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Do you mean

who could have won this time, or who could win in 2008?

I don't think anyone to the left of Kerry could have won this election, and I was pleasantly surprised that he did so well - my view is that Bush won relection three years ago. That gave him an excuse to keep the country on a wartime footing, and thus make it look as though opposition was disloyal.

I think it's too soon to say who could win in 2008. If, as in this election, political discord is high, then I think you should run a moderate (all your voters will vote anyhow, and a moderate will be able to attract votes across). If, as is currently the case here in the UK, you are by then having problems with apathy and low turnouts, then I would have thought a more liberal candidate would do better at turning outthe core vote.

I see no reason to suspect that a second Bush term will be any less divisive than the first was, so my guess is that the answer is "no-one". If I'm wrong about this then my guess is that the best left-of-Kerry candidate will be someone currently relatively obscure, at least outside the US - four years ago I'd never heard of Dean, Kerry or Edwards and I'd only come across Clarke in the context of the military, never as a political figure.

[Clarkie1]

29. How do you define "left?"

[bigtree]

32. That's the rub . . .

how can someone who professes to be 'left of Kerry' win over an electorate that tends to favor the centrist candidate in presidential elections. Folks would say that such a candidate should succeed by being forcefully, unapologetically liberal, but I don't see any evidence that such an approach would get them nominated in the primaries. Maybe next time around.

Funny how Kerry, with a record that, on balance, was a defense of liberal values and concerns was recognized as a liberal most of his career and hounded for that record during the general by the opposition, was not embraced by the left because of his IRW vote. That's always going to be a problem for our party: How can we find representation and voice for all of the disparate elements of the Democratic party and for all who would oppose this administration?
There has to be a compromise. That may be the reason voters come down in the middle.

It remains to be seen whether or not a forceful liberal candidacy could trump a forceful conservative opposition. The voters decide that, despite this notion that our party leaders choose our nominee. We will have a liberal candidate, IF the voters choose one. Period. There are many who are available to run. It remains to be seen who will step up to that challenge and how effective their efforts will be. Think of the variables with the last primary in mind. The outcome will involve more than just wishful thinking.

[deutsey]

34. My, where do you find all these axes to grind?

:eyes:

[Dr Fate]

36. Kerry could have won- the DNC is the problem.

But to answer your question- Clark or Dean could win too.

[welshTerrier2]

37. labels and political spectrum thinking are just plain wrong ...

we have allowed republicans to divide natural democratic constituencies with these labels ...

if a democrat favors tax policies that would create more jobs, are they left or right of Kerry ... if they favor getting big money out of the electoral process, are they left or right? if they favor putting the interests of workers ahead of stockholders, are they left or right of Kerry ...

questions like this need to start raising red flags among the DU community ... we argue and argue and argue ... "these stupid lefties are killing the party" ... "those damned moderates are republican-lite" ... we need to talk about real positions on real issues and stop all this labelling ... it's divisive ... that's all it is ...

Who is to the left of Kerry who can win? Can Kerry win? Who is to the right of Kerry who can win? Seems like we're discussing winning before we define who we are ... what's wrong with the party is that we have not been adequately effective in communicating a strong, clear vision on a wide array of issues across the political spectrum ... we need to list the issues; debate the issues; and then find the strongest candidates who can clearly articulate our positions on the issues ... running a little "political spectrum meter" to pick the next candidate is a recipe for failure ...