Question: What would happen if we all stopped paying taxes

[EnfantTerrible]

in protest of this administration and it's policies? What if the 50 million+ citizens who voted against this regime were to cut off the funds? Could they arrest so many people? Would they deploy tanks in the streets and show their true fascist colors? Would the rich still get a tax break?

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. Concentration camps? n/t

[NVMojo]

2. striped uniforms and chains

[EnfantTerrible]

6. Seriously?

Do you think it would be possible? What would happen if half of the country refused flat out to give this government any more money? I'm not naive enough to believe that the only funds they get are through taxes, but it would have an impact.... Generally speaking the left understands that there is cost to freedom and to helping those in need and seem willing to pay for the fulfillment of their ideals. Repugs do not believe in this, generally speaking... so what if we who are most willing to support government with tax revenues decide to stop funding the hate "mandate"?

[trogdor]

37. You would have to get organized.

That's a tall order, getting millions of people all to break the law at the same time. I am reminded of the poor sap in the movies who did some mischief under pretenses like this only to find out that his buddies weren't quite as organized and committed as he, and he got in deep trouble.

I think a state would have to secede from the union or something to pull this off.

Then there's the matter of withholding tax. I live in New York. My employer lives in California. I think the payroll gets done in Virginia. How do I get them not to take withholding taxes from my paycheck? The level of interdependency between states is staggering.

[EnfantTerrible]

39. Right, I know...

This was pointed out to me about employer withholdings... I'm actually not seriously proposing this as a course of action. The organization of it would be impossible I think it is safe to say. However it has spurred some other ideas that are on the right side of law and could have a symbolic effect if not a concrete one. I'm angry about my tax dollar being spent to fund an illegal war and feel like I've been taken hostage by my government. I just floated the idea of not paying taxes to shake the tree and see what would fall out.

[Denver Socialist]

3. I'd rather see the defense dickheads who've been getting free money

pay the taxes BEFORE us. Corporate personhood before personal personhood and reduce the taxes to US!

(And I hate the TABOR Amendment we have here in Colorado - we have so much money, but the greedhead Bruce Douglas wrote that bill and got it passed so the money has to go back to us, and could have used the money to pay for higher education which constantly face cuts, fortunately now with the state Dems in power on both sides, they should start removing all of Rethuglican's pork and put it back where it should be)

-DS

[serryjw]

4. .....and amendment 23....

no wonder the schools are closing

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. If 50 million did it they would have little choice

I suspect they would go fast fothe flat tax... that you will nto be able to avoid paying

That said, have you considered boycotting the economy?

Just a thought.

:-)

And truth be told our forefathers went for boycotts well before the Tax Act

;-)

[EnfantTerrible]

9. Couldn't avoid paying flat tax

because it would be on goods and services? I'm not too fluent in all of the proposed tax plans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Exactly and it is EXTREMELY regresive

and that is a wet dream of the RIGHT WIING.

[EnfantTerrible]

15. Isn't that antithetical to what they espouse?

I thought the idea behind lower taxes was to free up money to spend on goods and services and to invest in those companies that provide the goods and services... it seems to me that if things were taxed heavily that would slow the economy, more manufacturing would be outsourced to make up the difference in lost profits, leading to even higher unemployment and less disposable income to spend on goods and services... a self perpetuating collapse of our economy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. No it is not

What they are against is the PROGRESIVE tax where you pay only a percentage of your income

This means the RICH pay their fair share, and the poor pay what they can.

Now they peddle what you wrote for the masses, but in reality they want a system that will transfer wealth from the poor to the rich and put the burden of taxation on the middle class (whatever remains) and the poor.

This the flat tax does very well as the percentage of yoru income is lower if you make 1000 a day than if you make 120 day, on that loaf of bread

The Value Added Tax or flat tax (there are differences, but they act the same way for those paying it) at lets say 10% of the price is going to be harder on the person making 120 day, than on the person making 1000, hence they are gonna be able to have a tranfer of wealth.

Oh an dthis is but one method of getting a flat tax going... but they want to get rid of the IRS, so it stands to reason that they may just try this beaut

[Gore1FL]

17. Not necessarily

A national sales tax is inherently flat, however, it doesn;t hacve to be a sconsumption tax to abe a flat tax -- Just take our current system and remove the brackets to flatten everything out --

Here is the problem. The huge taxe cuts to they wealthy cut the top rate a few percentage points. A flat tax would make those cuts look like chicken feed. The natural source of income to make up for the huge tax decreases would come from the lower and middle class.

[EnfantTerrible]

24. I was responding to the unavoidable payment of taxes

portion in post #5... a flat income tax would be irrelevent if we all refused to pay.

[lgardengate]

7. Take ALL the stuff/money of the non tax payers. They already

do that.Anyone not paying would have there accounts frozen and taken by the IRS,then tax court would strip non payers of homes,cars,jewelry etc etc.

[EnfantTerrible]

10. But 50 million people?

It would take the next 4 years for them to figure out how to do it...

[lgardengate]

14. i don't think so, but...

Try it and let us know what happens.}(

[EnfantTerrible]

19. Me acting alone would certainly prove you right...

I'm talking about half of the country! It is a gesture that would have global repercussions... even if only symbolically. I know this is fantasy to imagine that it would ever happen. I'm just terribly frustrated to be paying for what our country is doing around the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Ok here are things we are already donig which

ARE LEGAL....

Don't participate in Christmas consumption, remember the spirit of the season is NOT gift giving but celebrating the miracle of life in the middle of winter, a very special life but you get the gyst (And for that thanks to many a discusion at oh dark hundred with Seminary Students on you guessed it, December 24th... used to be a medic and I am jewish so I sent a kid home and took the watch)

GET OUT OF DEBT... FAST, food for thought, about 70% of our GNP is your and mine consumption AND DEBT... those buy now pay later are critical... if you don't have the money for the sofa, don't buy it until you have the money.

Cancel all your major Credit cards, in particular those tied to MBNA or Citibank... keep a local one for emergencies.

Sell gov'ment securities if you have them, get into gold

Buy ONLY from local merchants, avoid large chains, kudos if they are democrats also

On the large chains, Sam's Club BAD, COSCO GOOD (They treat their employees very well)... Starbucks BAD, I think Seatlle's Coffee good, we suport a local coffee shop.

If you absolutely need to do christmas, well buy from LOCAL merchants and antiques work

BUY maade in America (it still exists... if it is not made here you don't need it)

Cars, if you need to replace it, either buy a two year old subcompact or a hybrid, forget the SUV or any other gas guzzler... and peak oil is here.

SAVE... live within your means and ... save some more.

Oh for the holidays, instaend of turkey and the fixings, have you heard of Chicken? Enough people do it, those will go on sale.

Oh and taxes, find loopholes

Remember, the founding fathers first did economic boycots to slow down the economy... what do you think the Boston Tea Party was about? I know the myth, but reality is that tea was taxed heavily by the East India company for the crown, and the colonist not buying it was serious... less known were Americans making their own shovels... tehy were not suposed to do that... so think on creative ways to screw over the economy and be aware, this will HURT people, but we need to do this...

Oh and civil disobedience, which is what you are proposing, takes time, and it better be legal for it to be effective

[EnfantTerrible]

30. Most of these I do already

out of necessity.

I live in NY city so I don't own a car. I ride the subway and rarely if ever take cabs.

Christmas is a $50 limit and we only spend on my wifes family (mine stopped gift giving a few years ago)

No debt other than school loans and a mortgage... chipping away at both every month.

I have no major credit cards, but do use a debit/MC which restricts me to charging only what my account can cover.

I save what little I can.

Own no securities.

I don't like turkey or the fixings and would love a chicken instead.

Don't shop at Sams club or any of the wholesalers. They don't have them here in the city, but there is a bevy of local businesses which I couldn't avoid patronizing even if I wanted to (which I don't)

I'm guilty on the Starbuck's count. Can't swing a cat without hitting one here...

[intheozone]

8. WE could cripple the IRS

got to tell you, the IRS depends of voluntary compliance because it doesn't have funds or resources to enforce compliance. It can't even collect from tens of thousands of people who don't file or file returns but don't pay what is owed. It does have enforcement capabilities but those can be frustrated with a little know-how. Also, if people started a campaign of filing phony, made-up documents like tax returns, information returns and other correspondence, it wouldn't be long before the systems would be brought to its knees just trying to keep up and figure out what is real and what isn't. There are ways to minimize what is paid through withholdings and to frustrate collection efforts.
If democrats are no going to be given any representation through fair vote counting or through our representatives in Congress, then perhaps we need to have another Boston tea party and just say no to taxation without representation. Besides, Bush wants to reduce our tax burden and he knows we spend our money better than the gov't spends it, so maybe we should just keep our money!!

[lgardengate]

12. My sister has a tax business of her own

(book keeper/tax accountant) and she has seen it ALL. Don't think the IRS would be helpless.They can and will freeze and take all accounts and take people to court to take there property. Especially if it were happening all over.They would make examples of a few and broadcast it.

[intheozone]

26. Yes, they can seize your accounts

but first they have to know where they are. If you own real property, it is easy for the IRS to lien it and seize (without going to court) t but as of now it isn't being done on residences unless there is special approval from higher management. If you don't own property, collection can be easy to frustrate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Tust me this is one aproach we are taking

insofar as finding EVERY DARN LOOPHOLE we can.

;-)

[lgardengate]

16. Finding loophools is differen't

That could work much better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I know

the MOST effective civil disobedience, is the one that stays JUST THIS SIDE of being legal....

It just takes maddenly long.

[EnfantTerrible]

27. I'm all for keeping it legal

except that the law makers and enforcers are the problem. I didn't post this thread to start a revolution... just wondering how to stop financing the killing.

[gmoney]

21. Sorry, but not much...

the system is structured so that almost everyone is essentially "forced" to pay about 90% or more of their taxes through withholding. If you don't hold out enough, they can even penalize you. Most of us are generous enough to have MORE than we owe withheld so we get a "refund" that seems like a bonus that we can blow on a new TV or something.

So, you'd somehow have to convince your employer to stop withholding, which is unlikely. And if there was a big movement to not mail in the last few hundred bucks we owe come April, they could easily respond with not mailing refunds... they might even come out ahead.

So, you'd just be risking audit hell, especially since we have to work like hell to get 50 million people to do what's LEGAL (voting) -- you wouldn't find more than 100,000 people who'd stick their necks out by not paying taxes. Plus, it would take the IRS MONTHS to even figure out who's not paid, so its impact would be extremely blunt, and they would quietly use their methods to collect. (Audits are now performed almost exclusively on the middle class and poor.)

More likely/effective might be a "blue flu" sort of national "sick day" also known as a general strike. If nobody showed up to work on April 15 or something, that could send a clear message.

[EnfantTerrible]

28. I like the idea of the "blue flu"

It reminds me of when I worked in the bond market in Chicago during Clinton's years... the huge corporations would send a message to him by causing dips in the dow whenever he talked of raising taxes. They would let him know who actually runs the country. I'm not sure that a "sick day" would be as effective, but the sybolism of the gesture could be powerful and send a message to the world that we do not sanction this foreign policy.

I think I'd be lucky to find 100 people let alone 100,000 that would get on board... and the employer withholdings would render it all a moot point.

[FloridaPat]

22. Become a corporation and take tax breaks like the big guys.

Anyone interested in learning how and why???

[gmoney]

23. Bring it on...

"Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter." -- Homer J. Simpson

[Baja Margie]

29. Taxation without Representation

I'll go for it. But I don't think millions would. What you would have to do is take a bunch of credits (deductions) on your payroll, then not pay up at the end of the year. But they would slap liens on you so fast it would make your head swing. Couldn't sell your house, nothing. Not only would you have the Feds after you, but the State too.

On the other hand, can you imagine say, if everyone just stopped paying on their credit cards, I mean, just stopped?

However, I understand that Australia right now has a really good interest rate on savings accounts, I think I read it was 7.5 %. Maybe moving money around to say Australia or even Mexico, whose rate is about 15 % on a savings account. Course, these places aren't federally insured, so it's a wild gamble.

[judaspriestess]

31. you'll get a tax lien against your property

trust me!!
I tried the Irwin Schiff route, um doesn't work......

[EnfantTerrible]

32. I was proposing a more group approach

would /could they sieze the property of millions of people?

Probably.

[judaspriestess]

33. yes!!

and my debt WAS piddly too...... please don't forget, * approached congress for permission to collect on back taxes because it totaled BILLIONS of dollars in revenues to pay for the Iraq war or pay Halliburton, which the latter makes more sense.
and now the gov't has given colletion agencies permission to collect on behalf of the IRS. talk about some fucked up shit.
anyone else in the 28% tax bracket?? sucks!!! I am definately pro flat tax!!

[EnfantTerrible]

35. There has been some argument against the flat tax in this thread

(see posts 18 and 17 respectively) I don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion, but I would love to hear how you feel it would benefit you.

[Historic NY]

34. What if eveyone just delayed paying, used extensions etc.

That would mess with them.

[EnfantTerrible]

36. The spirit of this thread

was to do more than just mess with them... I was proposing cutting them off and making a statement that would be impossible to ignore... not just making life difficult for them. Yours is the more realistic approach and would have more chance of getting people behind it... mine is pure fantasy, but fun discuss and hear opinions about.

[Catchawave]

38. Vote with your dollars....

I think massive boycotts (think Sinclair) work much better, plus they're legal. And it's easier to change minds than laws!

Personally, I like the idea of a National flat sales tax of 10%. 5% to the Feds, 3% to your state, 2% to the locals. Period.

That would certainly level the playing field between a min.wage worker and a gazillionaire.

[EnfantTerrible]

40. Some here are against the flat tax

(see posts 17 and 18 above) saying it shifts more burden to the lower and middleclasses. I don't know enough about the subject to have an informed opinion so would love to hear arguments from both sides of this issue of the flat tax.