This voter fraud thing can get annoying sometimes

[mtnsnake]

So many times when someone starts a good discussion about analyzing how we might fix what ails us or how we might run a better campaign, out come the voter fraud specialists who have to interrupt the discussion as if everything else is meaningless except for fraud. To them, we're wasting our time trying to figure out how to fix what's broke, because according to them the only thing that's wrong are the machines. According to them, Kerry couldn't possibly have run a poor campaign or he couldn't possibly have blown it in any other way. It was only the machines, and that's all we should think about in the meantime.

For example, someone just started a nice thread tonight wondering what hurt Kerry the most...the bin Laden story or the Swift Boat ads....and it didn't take long before the voter fraud people were dismissing either one of those things as being relevant because, according to the voter fraud people, it was only voter fraud that hurt Kerry and nothing else.

Voter fraud is an important topic, but why can't the voter fraud people at least keep the subject of voter fraud to the voter fraud threads? Machines or no machines, we still have serious other problems in this party to contend with.

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. bush only one by something like 2 percent of the vote.

you think 2 percent couldn't be stolen? especially considering the contacts between the machine companies and Bushco? it IS the most important issue.

period.

[greenohio]

51. Fraud really can only be hidden well if the race is close.

I believe a discussion of how we handily put the repukes in their place is helpful. Repeating over and over again voter fraud does not help the discussion.

That said, I hate bbv and think we should count the votes at the precinct with video tape and candidates representatives present. It would take a huge conspiracy to commit fraud then rather than just one or two well place people.

[LiberalBushFan]

2. Losing by 2 percent due to cheating

does not mean all we all have to do is win by more than 2 percent next time. If we're ahead by 6 percent next time, they'll steal 7 percent. If we're ahead 11 percent, they'll steal 12. How is this not the most important thing?

[Ducks In A Row]

3. because if the machines aren't removed it just doesn't matter

besides that, if also means you are buying the right's lies about what is important to the american people. Buy into those lies, then the right can make us waste our energies on bullshit.

[The Flaming Red Head]

4. The only power we have is our right to elect our leaders

some of us are feeling very threatened and intimidated by the fraud and the disenfranchisement of whole blocks of the Democratic voting base.

[kainah]

5. I agree with your basic point

but I suspect that there are also a lot of people who, like me, have lost all faith in the integrity of our voting system. And, as long as that is true, it seems (somehow, although really it isn't) fairly pointless to analyze what they tell us happened because we're not sure that it's anywhere near the truth. It also, for me, makes it damned hard to focus on things like the '06 or '08 elections. That just seems like another slap in the face invitation.

Nevertheless, you're right that there is no reason for people who feel like this to hijack someone else's thread. But, perhaps, this will help you understand some of why it happens.

[Eloriel]

8. It's hardly hijacking a thread to point out that it's the wrong

damn question. :-)

Excellent point about "what they tell us happened."

[Eloriel]

6. I'll tell you why

You said it yourself, actually:

For example, someone just started a nice thread tonight wondering what hurt Kerry the most...the bin Laden story or the Swift Boat ads....and it didn't take long before the voter fraud people were dismissing either one of those things as being relevant because it was only voter fraud that hurt Kerry and nothing else.

It's because IF YOU ASK THE WRONG QUESTIONS YOU'LL GET THE WRONG DAMN ANSWERS.

(And yes, I'm yelling.)

WHY SPEND A MINUTE thinking about what Kerry or the Dem Party did "wrong" when, like Gore, they did NOTHING wrong that cost them the election. Why do naval gazing down someone else's navel (the one pre-picked by and belonging to the Repugs)? It's not just a waste of time, it's COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. It takes us down the wrong avenue of discussion, inquiry and speculation.

Further, if we as a nation, esp. the more liberal half, don't "get it" about the election fraud and vote suppression, we'll NEVER get a chance to actually elect our choice of candidate for President EVER AGAIN.

It's pointless, utterly and completely, to discuss "what went wrong" or even "what hurt Kerry most" when THE issue -- the ONLY issue -- about this election and each and every future election is vote fraud (via paperless voting machines) and vote suppression.

That's why.

Act now, start asking the RIGHT questions, because:

The democracy you save may be your own.

[mtnsnake]

16. Eloriel, I edited a phrase in the part you quoted because I think you

may have misinterpreted the last part of it. Anyway, I added "according to the voter fraud people" in it for clarification purposes to show that it was the voter fraud people who thought that, not me. Sorry about that.

BTW, I appreciate the passion and hard work that many people, and especially yourself, have done to keep the voter fraud topic alive and well, and I think that's important. You deserve lots of credit.

At the same token, I don't think that other topics that have little to do with the subject of voter fraud should get interrupted all the time and written off as being irrelevent by the voter fraud people. I think other topics are equally important, and we can't dismiss other people's questions as being the "wrong questions". Voter fraud is not an answer to many of the OTHER questions that people have.

[4democracy]

19. You are absolutely right, Eloriel. The Republicans tried to make

sure no one would look at the mechanics of the election by starting that crap they won on "moral issues". They were hoping the Democrats would do exactly this type of thing, spend all their time trying to fix something that ain't broke.
People don't stand in line for 8 to 10 hours to vote for more of the same.
If we don't have election reform, it will not matter who runs for what office, what their views on the issues are OR how many people turn out to vote for them. The machines and the people behind them will choose the winner.

[magnolia]

36. THANK YOU!

I agree whole-heartedly!

Kerry was an excellent candidate, he ran an exceptional campaign, especially considering the evil forces (Bush Admin. and media) he was up against...and he would have made a truly great president.

We, as Democrats, also did a great job. We were more united than ever before, we worked our asses off and got the vote out. I will continue to fight on a state level to get more Democrats elected. But...I will NOT go on the premise that we are broken and need to be fixed...and golly gee...what should we do to win. We are already winners. The system is corrupt and THAT'S what needs to be fixed!

[welshTerrier2]

59. nope ... sorry, i don't agree ...

let me offer this premise for you to poke at:

whether Kerry can prevail or not and whether we do all we can to highlight the electoral fraud that occurred or we don't, Democrats still need to IMPROVE how we fight against the republicans ...

you can view electoral fraud as an issue that sits on top of everything else ... that's fine ... in fact, i have no quarrel with doing so at all ... but that still doesn't mean we can ignore the future ... even if Kerry prevails, democrats are not doing as well as they should be ... the comparison is not between winning and losing; it's between doing what we did and doing what we might be able to do ... the point is that many of us do not think the party has lived up to its potential ...

changes need to be made on many fronts ... of course if cheating occurs we have no chance ... but we cannot afford the time to focus only on the fraud issue ... their are many pieces on the chessboard ... we need to pay attention to all of them simultaneously ...

it is not pointless to look both backwards and forwards to study the election ... we did not energize enough democrats to take part ... why? because not all democrats did take part ... there's always room for improvement ... we did not have an "overriding theme" to our party's message; it came across as a bunch of disconnected policies ... it doesn't matter whether you agree with this ... the point is it's worthy of discussion ...

BBV is a critical issue that needs to be fought and fought hard ... but don't suggest that the party can afford to turn its back on everything else ... we just can't afford that luxury ...

[mtnsnake]

62. Perfectly said, welshTerrier!

Voter fraud or not, there is so much room for improvement in this party, we can't stop at fraud alone. EVERYTHING needs to be improved, and even if fraud is proven, anyone should've been able to see that this campaign left a lot to be desired.

For everyone's sake, it would be nice if fraud is proven, yet I hope we continue to talk about and improve all the other aspects that need fixing, too.

[skylarmae]

7. mtnsnake - one person, one vote - FOR THE PEOPLE - BY THE

PEOPLE - Why don't you get it?

[knowbody0]

9. in the larger picture

all these things distract from the illegal invasion, occupation and carnage in iraq. so much wrong. so little power to change things.we are all frustrated, but there is more creativity here today and that is a good thing. we crave solutions in these dark days.
peace and love

[hippiechick]

10. Thank you !

Good post. It's nice to see I'm not the only person whose leery of the ravings from that group.

I understand their passion and appreciate the work they're doing, but the intense rage and dismissal of all else is enough to scare the rest of us right off of DU.


:hippie:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[skylarmae]

37. thank you, I've been sitting here for the longest time trying

to figure out just how to let this one down easy. After reading your response, I couldn't have said it better. Glad to know, I'm not out here alone....

[hippiechick]

54. Try "Letting it down easy" by not attacking people you don't know.

:hippie:

[Zhade]

21. Uh, shouldn't YOU be enraged about the probable death of democracy?

I mean, it's all well and good to figure out, say, how to circumvent the corporate media, but if your vote isn't counted, good luck getting any benefit from doing so. You could have 99% of Americans on your side and still lose.

[welshTerrier2]

60. ravings

i would only say that i don't see the issue as "ravings" ...

but i think it is narrow-minded to see it as the only thing worthy of discussion ... there are many, many battles to the big war ... to focus only on one, however critical, is a recipe for disaster ...

[lessthanjake]

12. I concur with this

When people say "WE WILL NEVER WIN ANOTHER ELECTION SINCE THE MACHINES ARE RIGGED!!!!!!!!" its just complete BS since there is NO concrete evidence that they have ever been rigged.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

33. come out from under the rock

there is plenty of evidence, overwhelming evidence, only wake up and smell the fraud.

[lessthanjake]

58. There is NO evidence that would hole up in court

Only some odd things.

[Vincardog]

63. We do not have to prove the election was rigged THEY have to prove it wasn

You or I can never prove a negative. It is not our job to prove that the elections were rigged. The Repugs on the other hand, you remember the ones who insisted on Secret Source code for BBV, The ones who insisted on NO PAPER TRAILS, The ones who left the vote open to being hackled by hooking the count up to modems, phone line and the INTERNET, They have to prove it WASN'T. And guess what THEY CAN'T.
They made sure they could not. THAT IS THE POINT.

[intheflow]

14. I understand your point

even though I am one of those stolen/rigged election/voting reform people myself. I absolutely believe this is the most important thing to work on right now.

But having said that, I have to also say thank God other people are working on other things. If we all myopically focused on one issue, who knows what they'd sneak by us. It's better in the big picture if we fan out and cover all the bases.

:hi:

[Malva Zebrina]

15. I can understand the tendency to hang on to the voter fraud

proposition, but if the big guys are not playing, the game will be lost and that is the truth. I do not consider Bev Harris to be one of the big guys as there are some things about her campaign that , to me, are questionable which is my own private conclusion.

Nader as a candidate should see it through, but instead of rising up independantly from the start, depended upon us for the financing of his challenge in New Hampshire. Which says to me, that he was willing to let it go on.

Cobb had no money, but at least he did not have to be cajoled into a challenge and he still depends upon money from us leading me to believe that he does have some sense of propriety.

If the big guys, the would be winners, are backing down and out,one has to ask why and what information they have that we, who are outraged and suspect foul play, do not have. Has anybody asked them about that? And one has to ask how far it will go without this backing.

It may be defeatist, but, without the big guys in there, it will go down the memory hole. Some wannabee Michael Moores might make a video and try to capitalize and make a few bucks as they ride this bandwagon, but it will not go anywhere without the support of Kerry or Edwards.

More is needed to change this and there have been four years for the people we elect to do it. NOTHING was done in that four year period, when it was obvious something needed to be done. It was left to lie fallow.

[The Flaming Red Head]

20. The big guys thought slavery was ok, didn't believe a woman should vote

and told US that we could escape a nuclear blast by ducking under a table and closing our windows. The big guys were against the civil rights movement.

Fuck the big guys. With enough numbers and people involved we are the big guys.

And I don't mean Kerry or Edwards I just mean most of our leaders are chicken shit and need to be led in the right direction and these two obviously require leading.

[Malva Zebrina]

26. I did mean Kerry/Edwards

the most obvious to lead this inquiry if it were to mean anything in the future. It was not.

I understand that people do not want to give up their hopes.

This is my personal analysis and inquiry.

It has to go further and has to be far more supported than a grassroots, poorly funded venture, imo.

[The Flaming Red Head]

30. Isn't grass roots what the fucking party is supposed to be looking for

Here it is. They may not like it, but it's grass roots. not astro turf.

[scarletwoman]

17. And immediately they leap in to prove your point!

I'm with you, for what it's worth. Personally, I believe that the problems with the Democratic party definitely pre-date electronic voting. Nor do I believe that "vote fraud" trumps all else.

sw

[mom-mad-about-bush]

18. You can not talk about the election without talking about fraud....

There is no problem more serious then whether our elections are fixed or not. We could fix every problem in the democratic party....and it wouldn't mean "poo" if the elections are fixed. Everyone thinks we need to talk about the mistakes of Kerry in the election....they don't even compare to the mistakes of Bush, and yet he is the "so called" winner. If this voter fraud issue is not settled in a way that is not a "cover-up"....there is no hope for democracy, this country, and especially the democratic party.

[duker63]

22. want to know what the far right is saying

they call you whiny losers
im a democrat who owns guns
so i checked out this site for information
www.thehighroad.org

[The Flaming Red Head]

24. Wackos is what they're saying on Fox

When you loose your right to vote you loose everything, every other right can and will follow.

[Eloriel]

42. Well, in that case, I shall give it all up immediately

Wouldn't want the right to say bad things about me.

Of course, the thought occurs that when we give up purusing THEIR wrongdoing because they might say bad things about us, they have a sure-fire way to get away with whatever they want more easily than they already do.

But no matter. I shall give it up immediately. Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

49. nice...

[The Flaming Red Head]

55. When the guys on Fox call us wackos

We know we're getting to them.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

48. thanks...but no thanks.

[Eloriel]

40. Well said.

It's not that I believe EVERYONE should be working on this issue. Or that other efforts and issues can't be going on at the same time (by others).

But you are absolutely right -- nothing else counts IF we can't fix this problem. "You can't vote 'em out if you didn't vote 'em in."

I challenge naysayers -- those who don't believe either that the machines are rigged or those who don't think it's a big deal -- to read through these 3 threads (including all the links!) and come back and tell us that there's nothing there, or nothing important.

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

[aprillcm]

23. you are one

of the reasons the press feels they can ignore this story.

We can not look forward till we fix the problems with the voting in this country. Or in 2006 and 2008 we will have same problems with the voting problems because we did not investigate this far enough and the republicans will feel empowered to cheat!

[mtnsnake]

27. So because of what you're saying, that justifies people interrupting

someone else's thread that's NOT about voter fraud....and implying that voter fraud is the ONLY thing that's worth discusssing??

[aprillcm]

31. Thats not what I said

If you have a thread discussing 2006 and 2008 agendas and what not you can not overlook the value of making sure no Fraud occurs in future elections.
This is not a subject we can let up on and expect things to change, we could change our whole party and still end up in the same place we are today with the Media saying the same exact things and it could all be for not, I admit we have a huge problem in this party, Mostly that we are not mean enough or do not hold onto our anger long enough, we do not find one cause to unite under, we in fight to much. This is because Democrats are a diverse group where everyone is welcome, but we must find one common goal, one common agenda we can all agree on, then work out our other differences from there, Unite then work together period. The Republicans are winning because they do not allow decent to be made into and issue we are losing because we allow dissent to divide us!

But Voting Fraud is a huge problem that needs addressed along with these other things.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

25. thats right, kerry didn't run a poor campaign, and america voted for him

and kerry won. you got all that straight. Yep, and nothing else matters if there is fraud, because it doesn't matter who we voted for if there is fraud, and we don't have a representative democratic republic if it doesn't matter who we voted for. Is it fascism yet?

[senseandsensibility]

29. Yeah, it can be annoying to

have an election stolen from you two times in a row. Total agreement there. To me, that is the bottom line. Now, I enjoy a good political discussion as much as anyone, and contributed to the thread you described about the swiftboat liars. You will see from my response there that I don't shy away from criticizing Kerry and his campaign. But the voter fraud issue is THE issue. We are never going to have the perfect candidate. It is asking too much to expect our candidate to fight a hostile media, a dishonest administration, and rigged machines all at once. We need to attack this problem from many angles, but first and foremost, the elections must be fair.

[noamnety]

32. Here's how I see it

It's like if I earned a B at school, and someone goes in and tampers with my grade and changes it to an F.

Now I'm sitting in the principal's office with my parents, and they want to lecture me about how I should have studied harder, and maybe I should have gotten a tutor so I could have gotten a C.

Now maybe I should have studied harder, and maybe I should have gotten a tutor, and that would have helped me to earn an A. But at the end of the day, that analysis doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the person who changed my transcripts is still sitting in the same damn office using the same damn computer.

[mtnsnake]

34. That's a good analagy, but I'm not arguing about that.

I have no problem understanding the need to talk about voter fraud. The problem I have is one where I think it's a little inconsiderate for some people to ALWAYS discount someone else's topic of conversation as meaningless, because they feel that the only answer to EVERYTHING is voter fraud. I don't feel that talking about voter fraud IS the answer to everything.

[welshTerrier2]

61. yes, BUT !!!

let's say it was going to take you a long time to get rid of the cheating guy on the computer ...

while you're sitting back whining about the injustice, you could have been studying harder ... it's nonsense to say that people in the democratic party can only focus on one thing at a time ...

we need our candidates to get A's, not B's ... we need to start working on that now ...

your statement that "it doesn't amount to a hill of beans only holds true if the cheater isn't caught" ...

i'm not advocating that we stop focussing on the election fraud; i'm advocating that we need to continue the battle on all fronts, not just one front ...

[ohioan]

35. Bingo and Bravo!

[JaneEyrez]

38. How about a compromise?

We get to rant about fraud until it's proven or we have to give up because it's too late.

Then everybody can start planning what to do next. I really think what most people are really upset about is this willingness to move on when we still don't believe this election is over.

[m berst]

56. forest for the trees

I agree with you JaneEyrez.

Isn't the theft of the election just one part of a bigger plan to destroy democracy and steal our government from us and replace it with a totalitarian theocracy? So we fight them where we can, as long as we can and as hard as we can.

"Getting over it" makes no sense if we don't clarify what "it" means. get over what exactly? Get over the loss of our freedom? The destruction of our country? The criminal theft of our votes?

"The grieving process" talk is a disingenuous way to discredit the concerns by making them a matter of someone's private emotional state rather the larger public issue - the death of freedom.

The problem isn't that I am angry or sad about the death of democracy. The problem is that democracy is at severe risk, and that puts us in extreme danger. That danger doesn't go away by getting over the stolen election, and treating our anger or sadness about this - a very real and human response, not an indication of something wrong with anyone that needs fixing - as though that were the problem is to miss the point entirely.

If no political ideas are valid when they are accompanied by any genuine human emotion, then we have become moral monsters.

[BeFree]

39. "Voter fraud is an important topic"

Hells bells, son, it is the MOST Important topic. And it seems as if alot of folks here are forgetting already. Can't let that happen, we need everyone on the same message. Something happened and we gotta fix it, quick. The main reason Kerry seemingly lost is: fraud. In other words, he won. Didn't lose: Won. Never forget that.

[mtnsnake]

41. Yes it is, and so are plenty of other topics

I don't think anyone's forgetting about voter fraud. I'm sure each and every one of us will support doing whatever is necessary to find out exactly what happened in the election.

I agree, voter fraud IS very important, and there's nothing wrong with it being rammed into people's heads as a distinct possibility as to why Kerry may have lost the election, but it doesn't need to be rammed down people's throats who are in the middle of discussing a completely different topic.

[BeFree]

43. Well

That's freedom for ya. When people have freedom they can't be controlled, and that's the way we like it, eh?

Nobody got on to you because you were bitching and moaning about not being able to control other folks, but just wait a bit, and somebody will.

[mtnsnake]

45. Exactly what do you mean by that?

that nobody got on to me. Huh??

[BeFree]

47. What I mean is

I read the whole thread and no one, not one person complained about how you were trying to make people shut up/go away/not speak their minds/etc., on this, a free discussion board. See? That's how nice folks have been, they stuck to the issue and didn't attack the messenger, just the message.

[mtnsnake]

50. Okay, thanks BeFree. I didn't know what you meant at first

when you said "nobody got on to me". I wasn't quite sure what you meant. I would've caught it quicker if you had left the "to" out of it and said "nobody got on me" instead :)

...and I agree completely with you that everyone's been nice about it.

[Generator]

44. I hate it when people disagree it's so...

:nopity:

[mtnsnake]

46. I hate it when people are inconsiderate

that they don't think anything's wrong when they change the meaning of someone elses thread completely around for their own purpose of ramming their message down everyone's throat.

[m berst]

52. my thoughts on it

If elections can be stolen, and we fail to stop that now, then none of the other subjects will have any meaning or relevance to anything.

If one thinks the election was stolen, then nothing else matters - of course.

I think people are willing to risk being annoying, since a locked down totalitarian police state will be so much more annoying and intrusive.

If one doesn't think that the election was stolen, then of course one would want to talk about other things.

By the way, almost every election fraud thread has posters who want to talk about something else, or who want to debunk the stolen election "theories" - now that is what I call annoying.

[MajorFlaw]

53. I can only come up with 3 possible explanations for the election

results: 1. Shrub won fair and square, 2. the Rethugs cheated, but not enough to change the outcome, or 3. Shrub stole another one.

If shrub really did win, we certainly should be asking ourselves what Kerry (and we) did wrong. If they cheated, even if it was not extensive enough to alter the outcome, we had better deal with the issue right now--before they really do steal an election. If they did steal the election, not only should restoring honest voting and counting be our top priority, but we must avoid learning the wrong lessons. Instead of blaming gays, labor, African Americans and young/new voters for Kerry's loss (as some DU threads have suggested), we really should be crediting them for his victory, and we should be congratulating Kerry for skillfully holding the coalition together through election day. Shrubco would love to see us blame this "loss" on some of our allies, and they are hoping that we will respond to this by throwing some of our most loyal people overboard. The real question is whether we will be foolish enough to give them what they want. Learning the wrong lesson from this debacle of an election would be even worse than learning no lesson at all.

[greenohio]

57. Is this a thread where we can talk about BBV?

Look, I don't know if there was enough fraud to give it to shrub. That said, I do think we have a major trust problem with our voting process which is why I advocate counting the votes AT THE PRECINCT by hand in front of video cameras with candidate representatives present. The vote is certified at the precinct. It virtually eliminate chances for fraud as the conspiracy would have to be huge.

[jrtruth1]

64. Not just annoying... it's a distraction and a waste of time.

As a long time progressive I must say that the energy spent on the "vote fraud" allegations is going to be a real distraction and a waste of time.

It's time to simply get on with the effort to win in 2006 and 2008.

From what I've read so far the "vote fraud" allegations do not have much evidence to support them anyway.

And I'll say this for the people who are spending a lot of time trying to push the fraud story - grow up! Stop acting like children. The right-wing is going to keep playing you guys with this nonsense and keep you occupied. And while you fraud-sters are distracted the right-wing is going to win in 2006.

So please, let's get back to the real issues and stop this third-grade emotionalism.