yeas 391, nays 3, not voting 38 - HRES 853, Recognizing Boy Scouts

[The Straight Story]

yeas 391, nays 3, not voting 38
(Nays: Dingell, Frank (MA), Woolsey )

Recognizing the Boy Scouts of America for the public service the organization performs for neighborhoods and communities across the United States. (Introduced in House)

HRES 853 IH

108th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. RES. 853

Recognizing the Boy Scouts of America for the public service the organization performs for neighborhoods and communities across the United States.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

November 16, 2004

Mr. ISSA submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

RESOLUTION

Recognizing the Boy Scouts of America for the public service the organization performs for neighborhoods and communities across the United States.

Whereas the Boy Scouts of America is one of the leading volunteer youth movements in the United States, serving more than 4,700,000 young people with the support of 1,200,000 volunteer adult leaders;

Whereas the Boy Scouts of America was incorporated on February 8, 1910, and recognized by Federal charter on June 15, 1916, to provide an educational program for youth to build character, train in the responsibilities of participatory citizenship, and develop personal fitness;

Whereas the Boy Scouts of America teaches the core values of duty to God and country, personal honor, respect for the beliefs of others, volunteerism, and the value of service and doing a `good turn' daily, principles which are conducive to good character, citizenship, and health; and

Whereas during the 95-year history of the Boy Scouts of America, the organization has partnered with the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity International, the American Red Cross, and thousands of other community and civic organizations to address critical issues facing communities in the United States, including the problems of hunger, inadequate housing, and poor health and youth obesity: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Boy Scouts of America for the public service the organization performs for neighborhoods and communities across the United States; and

(2) commends the Boy Scouts of America for the Good Turn for America program and the work the organization has accomplished while partnering with the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity International, the American Red Cross, and thousands of other community and civic organizations across the United States to address critical issues facing communities in the United States.

[Politicub]

1. Was one of the brave Nays

Dingle - of the Dingle-Norwood bill? I can't imagine there would be a Dingle dynasty, so I guess I answered my own question as soon as I typed it.

[The Straight Story]

2. Barbara Lee voted for it, which was a bit of a surprise (see below)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1385404&mesg_id=1385404

[Politicub]

3. That is a surprise

Her district includes Berkeley, doesn't it?

:shrug:

[PassingFair]

4. SupernaturalHeterosexual Scouts!

Zeig Heil, future youth league!

Whereas the Boy Scouts of America teaches the core values of DUTY TO GOD and country, personal honor, RESPECT FOR THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS, volunteerism, and the value of service and doing a `good turn' daily, principles which are conducive to good character, citizenship, and health;

If the Boy Scouts really respected the beliefs of others, they wouldn't force boys to pledge to anyone's god.

[The Straight Story]

5. go here

http://thomas.loc.gov/r108/r108.html

Look (generally) at #3 and #5 of house record. (ie, prayer and pledge).

Interesting....

[AliciaKeyedUp]

22. The boys aren't forced to join

So no one is forced to pledge to anyone's god.

[PassingFair]

25. Puhlease...

they do recruitment drives in many schools, which is unfair and unconstitutional. Like I said, a name change such as Supernatural Scouts is in order so that the requirements are more clearly spelled out.

Blacks don't HAVE to join the KKK either.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

43. I've seen lots of organizations recruit in school

Ban one, ban all. And the only ones that suffer then are kids. Ban the outside sports teams, the non-school clubs, the Kiwanis and everything else.

To compare the Scouts to the KKK is the height of ridiculous hyperbole. No, I don't like their stance on gays, but it is THEIR stance, not mine, and they have every right to it.

The Scouts have done tons of good in this country. Not to be trite, but don't through the baby out with the bathwater.

[PassingFair]

69. I hate that analogy...

Look, we don't have to "throw the baby out". But damn, that's a filthy, dirty baby, and it NEEDS to be scrubbed.

A little soap and hot water might clean off the bigotry and hypocracy.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

83. Sorry about the analogy, but it fits

If you chase them out of school, everything else goes too. No out of school activities at all. And the kids suffer if you do that.

[PassingFair]

125. Analogy is several sizes too small to fit..

..."Ban the outside sports teams, the non-school clubs, the Kiwanis and everything else."

If these activities required a belief in supernatural sky gods for admission, then they should be banned from recruiting in schools.

[LiberalFighter]

96. Maybe they should join then they can force the white bigots out.

[bush_is_wacko]

42. I can't beleive such intelligent people

support the Boy Scouts good deeds, but won't admit they are one of the most bigoted organizations in existence. I know a lot of Boy Scouts don't realize they are being lead by biggots and come away from the scouting experience w/o becoming bigots themselves, but that does not excuse thier leaders for making a public statement that they are banning gay men from being leaders, even if those gay men were previously married and are leading thier own childs group! Anyone who believes this statement is okay must also believe that gay men are pedophiles! Educated people know there are far more straight, married pedophiles than there are gay male pedophiles. Don't we?

[Beer Snob-50]

114. no boy is forced to pledge to anyones god!!

i am a boy scout leader and we have boys who don't follow any religious tenants. my troop and any troop i know of does not discrimate against anyone due to sexual preference. we do much good in our community and i think we have been a positive force in the lives of the kids in our troop.

[PassingFair]

126. Then your troop does not follow national guidelines that have

...seen boys drummed out of the "corps" for not toeing the line religiously ala Darrell Lambert; or for being young and gay.

[genius]

6. That's 391 votes for bigotry

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. Are you calling Dennis Kucinich a bigot?

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=539

[SnowBack]

49. Yes

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. Is John Conyers a bigot for voting for this?

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=539

[SnowBack]

50. Yes

[Gore1FL]

18. Bullshit.

n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. Is Bernie Sangers a bigot?

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=539

:shrug:

[SnowBack]

51. Yes

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. Is Tammy Baldwin a bigot?

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=539

But, hey, what would she know about GLBT issues?

[SnowBack]

52. No, she's a self-hating Gay person

[Freddie Stubbs]

97. Perhaps she just feels that the good that the Boy Scouts do

outwieghs its antigay bias. Do you have any other evidence that she is a "self-hating Gay person?"

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. Is Barbara Lee a bigot?

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=539

[SnowBack]

53. On this, yes, she's bigoted

[Freddie Stubbs]

111. I'm sure that the liberal-leaning district which she represents

will take action against this 'bigot' in the next election.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Is Rosa DeLauro a bigot?

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=539

[SnowBack]

54. Yes

[KnowerOfLogic]

72. Are you a bigot? It sure as heck looks like it, if you can't tell blatant

gay baiting when you see it. Sheesh. And hey, it's really great to the dems standing up for principle for a change; looks like we're well on the way to turning the corner back to winning. (NOT)

[Freddie Stubbs]

92. Of course I'm not a bigot

I didn't vote for the resolution. ;)

Do you really think that voting against that resolution would have helped the Democratic party to turn the corner back to winning?

[KnowerOfLogic]

103. Okay, clearly you're not familiar with my philosophy. I believe

in doing what is right. Consistantly. Whether it's popular or not. *That* will turn the corner back to democrats winning. I think the Kerry nomination was a classic example of the mistaken ideology that you appear to be espousing, which is essentially, tell people whatever they want to hear in any given second, and no one will notice you havae no integrity or moral compass, and you'll win. Frankly, i don't know or care if that philosophy works more than 50% of the time, but it sure as hell isn't my philosophy.

[Freddie Stubbs]

106. Apperently Dennis Kucinich, Barbara Lee, John Conyers, and Bernie Sanders

are not familiar with your philosophy.

Or perhaps they actually believe that the Boy Scouts of America is a good organization that makes a positive contribution to society.

[KnowerOfLogic]

117. Ah, you silly, naive thing.....You actually thought that vote was

about giving the Congressional seal of approval to boys helping old ladies across the street, collecting food for the homeless, picking up trash in the park, and so on? Ha ha ha. Gee, would we really need a congressional resolution on such a thing? I'm going to say this once, and if you don't believe it, that's your choice; Anything and everything political surrounding the Boy Scouts right now is about either rejecting or endorsing their exclusion of gays and non-religious people. THAT IS WHAT THAT VOTE WAS ABOUT!!!! Now maybe you're in agreement with the scouts' position and you want the democratic party to be publicly on record supporting exclusion of gays and non-religious people. I am not in agreement, and i would rather that the democrats did not sign on to a resolution proclaiming "Hey everybody, we hate gays and atheists just as much as the republicans do." We may just have to agree to disagree.

[Freddie Stubbs]

127. So you actully think that all of the liberal Democratic Congresspeople

who voted for this resolution did so with the intent giving the Congressional seal of approval to the exclusion of gays and non-religious people?

[KnowerOfLogic]

128. Well, i think they're *politicians.* Let's face it, most politicians

check their integrity at the door the moment they enter the profession, and certainly at the point where they start making it up to the highest levels. I think that quite clearly, most house members knew what the "right" vote on this resolution was, and that is how they voted. Ditto the Patriot Act, the IWR, DOMA, and a whole host of these "gotcha" bills and resolutions. Hey, i guess you gotta do what you gotta do when you're a politician, but suffice it to say that i would not last very long as a politician. It seems to me though, that it doesn't necessarily have to be this way; people do respect courage and integrity, and the willingness to speak unpopular truths. Maybe if more politicians would do it, those that do it would not be slapped down ruthlessly as they are now.

[Mike L]

113. Bullshit! It's radical positions like being against the BSA that gives

Democrats a bad name. I don't care what they have said about banning gays in leadership positions. This type of anti-American activism has lost us the House, Senate and WH.

Anyone who can't see that is a liability to the Party.

[KnowerOfLogic]

118. Either that, or letting repukes define every issue while dems

stupidly walk into one trap after another laid by them. So being opposed to anti-gay, anti-atheist bigotry is now "anti-american?" Hmmm. Btw, see my post #117 above.

[welshTerrier2]

7. Indoctrination of youth began early in the Third Reich.

source: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazis_Education.htm

Education played a very important part in Nazi Germany in trying to cultivate a loyal following for Hitler and the Nazis. The Nazis were aware that education would create loyal Nazis by the time they reached adulthood. The Hitler Youth had been created for post-school activities and schools were to play a critical part in developing a loyal following for Hitler - indoctrination and the use of propaganda were to be a common practice in Nazi schools and the education system.

Enforcing a Nazi curriculum on schools depended on the teachers delivering it. All teachers had to be vetted by local Nazi officials. Any teacher considered disloyal was sacked. Many attended classes during school holidays in which the Nazi curriculum was spelled out and 97% of all teachers joined the Nazi Teachers' Association. All teachers had to be careful about what they said as children were encouraged to inform the authorities if a teacher said something that did not fit in with the Nazi's curriculum for schools.

<snip>

Biology became a study of the different races to 'prove' that the Nazi belief in racial superiority was a sound belief. "Racial Instruction" started as the age of 6. Hitler himself had decreed that "no boy or girl should leave school without complete knowledge of the necessity and meaning of blood purity." Pupils were taught about the problems of heredity. Older pupils were taught about the importance of selecting the right "mate" when marrying and producing children. The problems of inter-racial marriage were taught with an explanation that such marriages could only lead to a decline in racial purity.

[no_hypocrisy]

9. Hitlerjugend. I hate Hitlerjugend.

[woodybsa]

123. what scouting is about

it's about giving a boy self confidence. it's about teaching him to rely on others. it's about learning to have others rely on him. it's about instilling skills. it's about rites of passage. it's tolerance of others. it's about learning reverence. it's about Independence. it's about learning that your part of a greater whole. it's about moral values. it's about taking responsibility. it's about learning to follow. it's about learning to lead. it's about giving. the rewards that a young man gets from scouting far out weights any policy that the national council was forced into setting.

[peekaloo]

10. Let the Eagle Scout soooooaaaaarrrrrrrr.........

[PassingFair]

12. Okay, I am

ACTUALLY laughing out loud.

Thank you!

[Hosnon]

110. Me too...every time that image pops back up in my head I laugh. eom

[PROGRESSIVE1]

13. So then Bush will use the Boyscouts to brainwash our children.

:puke:

Boyscouts = Bigot Brigade

[Gore1FL]

20. Wrong

Do you condem the entire U.S. because it has policies you don't agree with?

what about DU? if there was a policy you disagreed with would all 15,000 members autmatically suck?

That is exactly what you are doing to BSA.

So there are a couple of loud-mouthed right wing nuts in power.

Boy Scouts is not equal to its leadership. It is equal to its true ideals.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

28. Then why don't those in the lower ranks then use civil disobedience....

to protest the biased policies of the upper ranks then???

:eyes:

[Gore1FL]

99. All things take time

try www.scoutingforall.com

[tx_dem41]

67. But, its the "true ideals" that many of us have a problem with. n/t

[Gore1FL]

98. Which ones?

Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly Courteous
Kind
Obediant
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean or
Reverant?

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. Did they take marching orders from Clinton when he was President?

:shrug:

[SnowBack]

55. and your point is?

Clinton also signed the anti-Gay Defense of Marriage Act. And told Kerry to support anti-Gay legislation. What's your point?

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. My point is that the Boy Scouts are not taking marching orders from

the President, regardless of who is in the White House.

[Gore1FL]

19. That is over the top

You know nothing about what you condemn.

[welshTerrier2]

26. so is this ...

source: www.scouting.org (type: homosexual in the "search" box)

BSA Board Affirms Traditional Leadership Standards

Irving, Texas—The National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America has reaffirmed its traditional leadership standards, as recommended by its appropriate committees.

The board received three resolutions suggesting changes in leadership standards in order to permit avowed homosexuals to serve as Boy Scout leaders. The board referred the resolutions to the appropriate committee, which formed a diverse task force composed of chartered organization representatives to consider the resolutions.

The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices.

In affirming its existing standards of leadership, the board also agreed that duty to God is not a mere ideal for those choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an obligation, which has defined good character throughout the BSA's 92-year history.

The board, the relationships committee, and the special task force are all comprised of volunteer members of the BSA.

The BSA is one of the largest youth-serving organizations in America, serving more than 5 million young people between 7 and 20 years of age.

[ieoeja]

38. Do they even KNOW their own Law?

TRUSTWORTHY
LOYAL
HELPFUL
FRIENDLY
COURTEOUS
KIND
OBEDIENT
CHEERFUL
THRIFTY
BRAVE
CLEAN
REVERENT


Their law reads like a gay stereotype.

[Gore1FL]

101. Once again a whole is judged by a part

That is like judging a Bush policy-- stems cells for instance -- and condemning the whole of the U.S. for it.

The arguments is not whetehr the BSA has poor policies. The argument is whether the entire organization should be judged just because it is lead by a few right-wing homophomes.

[blowhard]

45. Comparing the Boy Scouts

to Nazi's is outrageous. You should be ashamed of yourself. But as we all know, your propbably not. You're probably proud of yourself that you were able to find this obscure little snippet that you could share with the rest of DU. Politics does not extend to children.

[SnowBack]

48. Politics doesn't extend to children?

Too bad that the homophobes at the Boy Scouts of America didn't get the memo...

And the BSA's anti-Gay rhetoric and policies aren't "obscure"... They're well known...

:puke:

[welshTerrier2]

59. let's clarify a couple of points ...

first, of all, welcome to DU, blowhard ...

secondly, "finding this obscure little snippet" unfortunately took little or no effort at all ... the "obscure little snippet" continues to be included on the Boy Scouts website ... this is hardly an obscure location to look for information about the Boy Scouts ...

now, let's clear up a couple of things regarding my post ... it's important to understand that nothing i wrote was blaming the children for their participation in scouting ... i blame both the governing committee of the Boy Scouts for their desire to oppress gay people and I also blame the parents of those children who let their kids be affiliated with an organization that holds such disrespect for gay citizens ... if i were a parent of a gay child or if i were gay myself, i cannot imagine the disdain i would hold for such bigotry ...

the point of my post, in spite of your calling the comparison outrageous, was to emphasize the "indoctrination" aspects of the Boy Scout policy on gays ... i wrote:

All teachers had to be vetted by local Nazi officials. Any teacher considered disloyal was sacked. Many attended classes during school holidays in which the Nazi curriculum was spelled out and 97% of all teachers joined the Nazi Teachers' Association. All teachers had to be careful about what they said as children were encouraged to inform the authorities if a teacher said something that did not fit in with the Nazi's curriculum for schools.

I see great similarities between Nazi bigotry and the bigotry the scout's governing committee imposes on its scout leaders ... it's not just that gays are not permitted to take an active role in scouting ... it's more the effect this has on the scouts themselves ... how can a scout learn to respect others when many of those who would teach tolerance and respect for gays have been weeded out ...

I noticed in your harsh criticism of my post that you made no mention of the importance of teaching respect and tolerance of all peoples regardless of whether we agree with their sexual orientation or not ... i'll assume this was just an unfortunate oversight ...

[blowhard]

63. Yes,

Let's clarify. The site I was talking about was the one where the kids were being indoctrinated into Nazism. Being in the Boy Scouts and being brainwashed by the Nazis are worlds apart. If you believe in any similarities, then your feet just aren't planted firmly on the ground. I don't have a problem with individuals who disagree with the scout's decision as it stands with homosexuals. If something is wrong, educate people and try to change things. Calling an organization names like bigots because they believe differently than you is bigotry itself.

I still stand by harsh criticism of your post because using Nazism as a comparison is simply wrong. It diminishes the harsh reality of what Hitler and the Nazis did.

[welshTerrier2]

68. No,

point one: to discriminate against the millions of gays in this country is unacceptable ... again, I haven't heard you express your position on the issue ...

Is it acceptable to you for an organization to blatantly discriminate against millions of Americans because of their sexual orientation? A simple yes or no will suffice ...

Next, i did not call the Boy Scouts bigots because they disagree with me ... I called them bigots because of their intolerance for gays ...

and finally, I did not suggest that the Boy Scouts were the same as the Nazis ... yes, the harsh realities of what Hitler did were far worse than what the Boy Scouts have done ... for you to suggest that I equated the full range of horrors that Hitler caused to what the Boy Scouts have done is absurd ... I made no such statement ...

the comparison I did draw was to look at the rules governing who would "teach" the young ... and in both cases, a group of people were singled out for exclusion ... imagine black scouts being told that no black "scout leaders" could be hired ... imagine Jewish scouts being told no Jewish scoutmasters need apply ... i ask you again, is this acceptable to you ??? is that the message scouting wants to teach the youth of this nation ...

it's clear we're never going to agree here ... perhaps it would be useful to state you own views on the position the Boy Scouts have taken ... if all you intend to do is criticize my position, i've already heard, and dismissed, your point of view and would see no value to continuing this discussion ...

[JohnLocke]

76. Are you actually comparing the Boy Scouts to the Hitler Youth?

:eyes:

[welshTerrier2]

78. thanks for asking ... it was a question wasn't it?

the answer to your question is yes ... and no ...

the point of my post was to highlight the horrid policy imposed by the governing committee of the Boy Scouts on all of their state organizations ... no state was allowed to exempt itself from the discriminatory dictates of the main governing board ...

the comparison i made was between the Nazis weeding out of any teachers that didn't meet their "master race" criteria and the Boy Scouts' governing councils weeding out of gays ...

if this represents the values of American scouting, then to the degree stated, I was making the comparison ... an excellent measure of who we are is what we teach our youth ... if our message is that some in our society are inferior because of their race, creed, color, national origin or sexual orientation, or anything else for that matter, then by definition we are seeing ourselves as the "master race" ...

[JohnLocke]

87. Godwin's Law is achived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

[LiberalAndProud]

11. Does Congress have no real work to do?

[Nimble_Idea]

14. I think we all know the answer to that

They do.....but they like to waste time on stupid shit.

The congress obviously wants to spend time with people who are on their level intellectually.......a bunch of kids.
It's basically what this fucking congress is....

I refer you to freedom fries. :eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

34. this is common procedure

[fujiyama]

16. Wow...I'm surprised about Dingell

well, not too surprised.

He's a great congressman.

[JohnKleeb]

35. He is great, I am surprised too

the other two are known as very liberal, that is Woosley and Frank, Dingell is a liberal but more moderate on social issues.

[Gore1FL]

17. Good! I would have voted for it.

BSA is a great organization with a couple of wingnts hellbent on interjecting politics into it.

The Law, Oath Slagan, and Motto, speak for BSA more than any person in the organization.

I speak as an Assistant Scoutmaster, an Eagle Scout, a Brotherhood memeber of the Order of the Arrow and the Dad of a First Class Scout(well on his way to Eagle).

There are many Eagles on the Left. These include (but are not limited to:

Dick Gephardt
Micheal Moore
Bill Bradley
Sam Nunn
Walter Cronkite

Did you know that Boy Scout founder Lord Robert Baden-Powell was a female impersonator?

The true traditional vaslues of Boy Scouts does not include Homophobia or Religious intolerance. The very nature of the stated ideals oppose those policies.

The last two Saturdays we spend palcing bags on people's doors and then picking up the full bags of food, boxing them and delivering it to where it was needed. Two weeks before that, we spent a day cleaning up the neighborhood in "Make a Difference Day".

Good for the Congress.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. Well, since you're on the inside

what are you doing to change the homophobia and prejudice against those who do not believe in God?

I've heard this before, but I'm sorry -- I find it hard to buy. So long as the folks who don't agree with the discrimination continue to be involved w/o fighting, it will continue.

Perhaps if enough people said: fix this or we're out of here, something would change.

[Gore1FL]

102. Everything I can

For one, I've added my own voice to the mix. Next I teach my son,tolerance. I also lead by example.

We could apply the same for th US. Everyone could leave until things were fixed, but no one would be there to do the fixing.

[SnowBack]

56. and Mussolini made the trains run on time...

SO?

[KnowerOfLogic]

73. Too bad, cuz the Heterosexual Scout supporters wouldn't have

voted for you.

[Zynx]

21. That's just lame. I'm sorry.

[mmonk]

23. Why don't they vote on some real issues?

[MallRat]

31. Barney Frank: YOU DA MAN.

:thumbsup:

[New Democrat]

32. The boy scouts does great work with children

Too bad I can't join them because I'm an atheist though. Neither can homosexuals. If the boy scouts would remove these bigoted rules I would agreee with this resolution. But as the boy scouts stand today, we need the government to quit reconizing them and get them out of school and replace them with a program that teaches tolerance.

[blowhard]

47. Get them out of schools?

Who's tolerating whom?

[SnowBack]

57. Oh that's right, we're supposed to tolerate bigotry... I forgot...

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. i was a boy scout

for like a month. Then got bored.

[Kingshakabobo]

61. I got kicked out for bootlegging patches n/t

[Blue_Tires]

37. not like ppl can really vote against it on the fear of

appearing "unamerican"

remember that simpsons episode about Krusty(GOP) going to Congress?? The final bill was entitled "Free Flags for Orphans" or something

[Walt Starr]

39. This is a non-binding resolution

The vote is so these fucks can go home and tell their constituents they support the boy scouts.

My wife gets pissed at me when I refuse to have anything to do with helping Boy Scouts in their fund raisers. She tells me I shouldn't hold it against the kids.

I tell her I used to be a Boy Scout and today's organization bears no resemblance to the organization I joined as a child and I will not support it.

[fujiyama]

40. Good for you

I think it was Steven Speilberg or some other celebrity decided not to give them any donations after the decision.

Plus, girl scout cookies are great and they don't discriminate against anyone.

[blowhard]

44. Funny,

The fact that the Boy Scouts refuse to change their beleifs under a continuous barage of attacks is what makes them even more hated than they already are. I'd like to know, Walt, what has changed since you were a boy. The scouts have not changed; it has been society's opinion of the Scouts over time. It's too bad the partisin bickering has to extend to an orginization that helps to keep boys off the street and teaches them the skills to be tomorrow's leaders.

[SnowBack]

58. Keeps the boys off the street?

As long as they're heterosexual that is... Because if they're Eagle Scout of the Year and then come out, they get thrown out...

Teaching the boys that Gays aren't to be tolerated is a "skill to be tomorrow's leader"... Unfortunately...

Maybe it's time the Scouts DO change.

:eyes:

[Kingshakabobo]

62. Sure they change with time

My father was a scoutmaster and tells me of many battles he had in the early seventies to include African American kids from the neighboring town in the scouts.

The only difference is that gays are part of the last bastion of acceptable bigotry. Bigotry than can be masked by bullshit religion.

snip:
July 18

On this date in 1974, a 12-year-old African-American Boy Scout was denied a senior patrol leadership in his troop because he was Black


http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2523/Racism_in_Boy_Scouts_of_LDS_in_Utah

[blowhard]

65. King, here's what the article actually says,

"The Boy Scouts of America did not discriminate because of race, but Mormon-sponsored troops did have a policy of racial discrimination."

This was a local issue of the Mormons within the scouts discriminating.

[Kingshakabobo]

66. What's your point? Are you saying there wasn't examples of

racism in the scouts in the 60's and 70's? That was just one example. Do a google search. As I mentioned in my previous post, my father witnessed it firsthand and fought against it.

I was responding the position that the scouts don't change "only society and their views do".

[Astrochimp]

70. Democrats hate the boy scouts, that will get out the vote.

[Kingshakabobo]

71. Read #60. n/t

[KnowerOfLogic]

119. Yeah, if dems allow that to be the message. There is such a

thing as responding to this shit and setting the record straight. Dems don't seem to have grasped this concept.

[fortyfeetunder]

109. It was Mormon policy to discriminate...

The Mormon Church has taken BSA to be their premier youth group for boys. And across the US, the Mormons run some of the BSA subcouncils. I don't know what percentage.

And I am old enough to remember when the Mormon Church had this revelation that it was OK for Blacks to be fully participating members in the church, they could become members but could not be priests and other leadership functions.

The event in 1974 was before that 1978 revelation came to pass. Had the scout been enrolled in a non-Mormon sponsored troop, promotion to patrol leader would not have been an issue.

The Boy Scout incident, in addition to the LDS attempting to start a church in Brazil...and realizing most of the community was Black and couldn't partake fully in the church, led them to that revelation. In other words, the LDS was between a rock and a hard place.

Just google Blacks and Mormons, there is quite a bit of information out there.

[Kingshakabobo]

60. Don't forget the flip-side...

This vote is so the other fucks can tell the public that their opponent doesn't support the poor little Boy Scouts. It never hurts to plant these little seeds for future use.



"The vote is so these fucks can go home and tell their constituents they support the boy scouts"

[catbert836]

46. Actually, I was an Eagle Scout.

Ask me anything!

[Ann Arbor Dem]

64. I love John Dingell for so many reasons.

I'm proud that he's my congressman.

[xerox]

74. Gays good!

boyscouts bad!

[sallyseven]

94. Barney Frank voted against it.

He is truly a man of honesty and integrity. he voted once in the eighty's against something and the vote was 434 to one. He was the one.

[dontstopthere]

75. to be honest

I agree that the Boy Scouts should be allowed discriminate against gays, but not the government. Now, I don't know much about government funding of the BSA, but if the government funds the Boy Scouts then I think they should be required to be all-inclusive. But discrimination in private sectors is perfectly acceptable. It comes with the freedom. What if the DU had to let in Republicans? As much as I hate discrimination, I have to say that it should be allowed. People are allowed to believe what they want in the United States.

[sunnystarr]

77. To those who have a problem with the Boy Scouts ...

you, the ACLU (who has been suing BSA), and those in Congress voting NAY, are the reason that the '04 election was even close enough to be stolen by Bush.

My mother always said pick your battles carefully or you can lose the war. I have a Webelo Cub Scout, and I'm den (grand)mother for a Tiger Scout. 99% of the school they attend are Kerry voters in the red state of TN (Nashville). The pack is comprised of cub scouts, which is indicative of the national trend where the majority of scouts are elementary to middle school age. The dens I'm familiar with have boys from Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Evangelical faiths.

Religion is not the central message. They did work on a God and Me pin which is individualized for each child's religion but it's not mandatory and anyone can opt out.

The cub scout promise ... I promise to do my best to do my duty to God and my country, to help other people, and to obey the law of the pack... does include God but so does Pledge of Allegiance. No one is forced to say it although they're required to know it. It floors me when I hear objections to both of these yet the same people don't have a problem making marriage vows they don't intend to keep.

Regarding the gay issue. While it's certainly true that a pedophile can be either gay or straight, the fact is that there were too many cases where a gay pedophile selected the boy scouts as a means of easy access selecting victims since there was time and opportunity to both create trust and to victimize. This has also been the case with youth sports leagues. When protecting our children, it's prudent to minimize this vulnerable access. In fact if that's not done, the organization is open to lawsuits from the victims similar to the Catholic Church, which also has finally been forced to take steps to protect children. It's a shame that a few spoil things for the many but it's a fact of life.

When the choice is protecting children or protecting gay rights then children will always win out which is at it should be since it's not really a right, but the protection of our children is inherent to our culture. This is one reason we lose voters.

The ACLU suing the BSA is another reason. Don't attack the Boy Scouts if the party and the liberal agenda is to win. We lose all credibility with the average American ... over half Americans were in the scouts and it's like attacking America.

[Toucano]

79. I agree with you in principle, but I need you to cite a source for

"...the fact is that there were too many cases where a gay pedophile selected the boy scouts as a means of easy access..."

Choosing battles is important, but believing in bullshit is more destructive than choosing the wrong battle.

[welshTerrier2]

80. are you kidding me ??

i'd like to address two points you raised ... i consider both of them to be total bullshit ...

first, let's talk about your discussion of the "God" thing ... but don't take it from me, take it from the Boy Scout organization itself ... here's what it says (a link was provided in an earlier reply):

In affirming its existing standards of leadership, the board also agreed that duty to God is not a mere ideal for those choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an obligation, which has defined good character throughout the BSA's 92-year history.

so before you go comparing the Boy Scouts' tolerance on the issue and making comparisons to the Pledge of Allegiance, please note that for the Boy Scouts, God is an obligation ... it sounds like unless you can prove that you believe in God, you need not apply ... is that the kind of religious tolerance you think we should be teaching young people? do you think the message to those who don't believe in God is that they are not suited to be around young people as teachers and guides? discriminating against those who don't believe in God is every bit as much religious discrimination as discriminating against people of different religions ...

and now to your second point about pedophiles ... first of all, you cited no evidence whatsoever that the incidence of pedophilia is higher among gay men than straight men ... I'll assume you've just come to accept this without knowing the facts ... i don't mind admitting that i don't know the facts about this either ... but i didn't use my prejudices to advocate for policy the way you have ...

now, even accepting your suggestion that there is a higher incidence of pedophilia, your argument is still bullshit ... of course we need to protect the young ... let me ask you this? if the incidence of child abuse is higher among men than it is among women (i.e. more men are abusers than women), would you also ban men from being scoutmasters? why not ?? you convict all gay men because of those who would commit these crimes ??

i know that you believe there are reasons that justify what can only be called religious and anti-gay bigotry ... but any way you slice it, it's not what this country should stand for and it's not the ideals we should be teaching our youth ... ensuring the safety of the young is critically important but no less so than teaching them the values they'll need to survive ...

[welshTerrier2]

82. oh, and one more thing ...

here is the statement of policy from the Boy Scouts on the issue of gays:

The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices.

please note that the reason cited for discriminating against gays had absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with protecting children ... this was the entire basis of your defense of this hideous policy and yet it was not even mentioned by the scouts' governing council ...

the real reason is that gays just don't make a good role model for their "traditional moral values" ... you know, if i'm not mistaken, it used to be "traditional" to keep black people as slaves and not allow women the right to vote ... i guess some "traditional values" are better than others ...

[The Straight Story]

84. one the subject of pedophilia and such

I think the idea they are trying to convey (generally) is:
Women handle girlscouts because having a man alone with such kids invites trouble, Men with the boy scouts for same reason (notice this applies less to younger scouts, like cub scouts - the thinking too here is that women are more acceptable to work with boys than men with girls).

In this sense people grasp that. So having a gay man, would be sexually speaking, present the same problem as having a woman camping out with a bunch of teen boys.

Right or wrong many people probably see it as prudent and some common sense. Teen boys camping out all alone with some woman - well, I know what I would be doing :)

By dividing things up like this the chances are less that a sexual predator (heterosexual) will be able to take advantage of the situtions that are presented.

As the parent of a daughter I know I would be less comfortable with her hanging out camping in the girl scouts where the leaders were male heterosexuals - and I don't think that is really a bad form of discrimintation, I think it is more common sense that we understand the sexual things which go on in our world. I don't hate heterosexual males, but I think giving them the oppurtunity is tempting fate a tad. Many may do nothing, but I am not willing to put my daughter into such a situation. Yes it could happen with a woman or a man who are bi-sexual predators, but at least this way you whittle down the chances by taking prudent steps.

[welshTerrier2]

85. "sexually speaking"

so then, are you willing to advocate that gay men should be allowed to serve as scout masters for your daughter ??

if I understood your reasoning correctly, you're worried about sexual improprieties between the scout leader and the kids ... i assume you would agree that that's not likely to be a problem with a gay male and female scouts ...

as i said in another reply entitled "oh, and one more thing", the
Boy Scouts themselves stated that they were rejecting gays because they lacked the "traditional moral values" ... so, while you may have concerns about pedophilia, that was not the reason cited by the Scouts' governing council ... let's be clear on that point ... it's bigotry on their part, plain and simple ...

[The Straight Story]

86. Therein lies the deeper problem

Deeper in the sense that when you see a man the chances are he is heterosexual (statistically speaking), there really is no way to tell if someone is gay by looking at them (gaydar aside :) ). So how then would you know for sure someone is gay when they say they are? Based on that men would be excluded from girl scout campouts based solely on their sex and not orientation.

"Traditional Moral Values" - what is key in that is to find out what that means, and the key to that phrase is the first term: "traditional".

traditional - pertaining to time-honored orthodox doctrines; "the simple security of traditional assumptions has vanished"
orthodox - adhering to what is commonly accepted; "an orthodox view of the world"

The key in this one is 'orthodox' and 'commonly'.

In this vein the Boy Scouts organizational body is looking at things in an orthodox manner with relation to personal behavior which in this case is traditionally considered contrary to what has commonly been accepted in their orthodox views.

In order to change their stance and views there will be two main areas which must be analyzed. The one is sexual because people will see that as a common sense sort of thing (as per my last post). It would be like trying to change it so that men could be the girl scout masters. And while sometimes they may be (I don't know, just guessing) it is probably not the norm.



Of course the general thing we hear is 'go make your own scouting organization' which may not be a bad idea really. Make one, make it good, and create a competition where the new scouts outdo the old scouts. Why change their organization when we can make a better one? Maybe call it 'All American Scouts' with many merit badges including 'the diversity of the american people'.

Why do we want to mold them into our image, they are who they are. A liberal scouting org with a broader focus on things would be like having a whole new education level outside of schools. Diversity, politics, history, etc can all be done better.

Just a thought.

[KnowerOfLogic]

89. Why do people always imagine molestation will occur in the woods?

Hate to break it to you, but your daughter is a million times more likely to be molested while over at a friend's house, while at school, while at a relative's house, or for that matter, under her own roof, by her own father or brother or other family member. Nothing personal, but it happens a whole lot more often that molestation on a Boy Scout camping trip! Do you object to your daughter being taught by a male teacher, or being taken on a field trip escorted by male teachers? or your son being babysat by a woman/girl? Btw, don't the scouts have a rule about there needing to be two leaders with the kids at all times? That would seem to be the best way to solve the problem.

[SnowBack]

81. Any reason why Boy Scouts of Canada ALLOW Gay troops?

If the policy is because of "Gay pedophiles", then why does the Boy Scouts in Canada allow Gays to participate?

Do you think Canadians care any less about their children?

Sounds like BIGOTRY to me...

And Pedophilia DOES NOT have any correlation with homosexuality...

Since most pedophiles are STRAIGHT, maybe the Boy Scouts should keep out STRAIGHT men. Because, protecting children is most important, right?

[KnowerOfLogic]

88. Since when does homosexual = pedophile? Most pedophiles

molest children of both sexes, from what i have heard, *and* they are not open homosexuals; they are usually heterosexual (or pretending to be heterosexual) men who often have girlfriends or wives. So what good does it do to keep out known homosexual men, much less gay scouts themselves??!!! Fact is, whether you recognize it or not, the furor over the scout oath and the absolute insistance on no gays and atheists is classic fundamentalist nutcasism. Open your eyes.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

90. Got a cite for that?

Never heard that molestors attack children of both genders. I am sure some do, but have always heard of ones who are gender specific.

[KnowerOfLogic]

91. Do a search; i've heard it numerous places. However, one must

distinguish between those who molest *children* (prepubescent) and ones who molest teenagers. I think that the ones who molest children molest both sexes; don't know about the ones who molest post-pubescent youth. In any case, see my post above about molestation in the woods.

[LiberalFighter]

95. What the hell they wasting time with crap like this?

When they need to finish the budget?

[JohnKleeb]

100. as I said this is typical congressional procedure

they vote on this stuff all the time.

[goobergunch]

104. Aye, suspension. (n/t)

[JohnKleeb]

105. even I know that and I am a frigging moron

heh. We discussed a vote in political science a few weeks back on condeming the abu gharib prison, sad to say, it was actually a close vote, :puke:. Sorry to threadjack.

[elepet]

107. lynn woolsey

is my congresswoman and she is consistantly terrific. guess everone else thought it was sort of innocuous.

[dsc]

108. Let's face it

Even among the left there is a huge difference between discrimation against gays and discrimination against blacks or Jews. Maybe someday it won't be but for now it is.

[LDS Jock]

112. Boy Scout cartoon

[Kahuna]

115. So, now we want the Dems to vote AGAINST the Boy Scouts???

:eyes: Way to win the hearts and minds of America folks.

[Mike L]

116. The radicals want us to keep losing elections.

[KnowerOfLogic]

120. Yeah, and Kerry voting yes on IWR worked really well. At least

when us "radicals" lose, we get to keep our principles and some integrity. Guess what? "Moderate Dems" are NEVER going to win by going after the bigot vote. I'm pretty sure that the social conservatives have got that one all locked up, some the democratic party is going to have to find the votes somewhere else.

[Mike L]

124. Be optimistic. We can get enough pro-American votes back if we start

standing up for patriotic organizations like the BSA.

[KnowerOfLogic]

129. The problem is when "patriotism" is deliberately conflated w/ bigotry.

That is what has occurred with the whole BSA thing, and it's classic Republican strategizing. If dems do not call repukes out on this, clearly, concisely, and loudly *every single time,* we are digging our own graves. Time and time again, dems have walked into this trap, thinking themselves "smart" by taking such and such issue "off the table." It doesn't work; 2002 and 2004 ought to to be proof enough of that.

[liberal democrat]

121. I dont think voting no would have achieved anything.

This is a simple resolution with no bearing on policy. The boy scouts, OVERALL, are a superb orginization that really teachers students valuable lessons. I have a friend who is a scout leader who is a huge Democrat. Many troops, like his, are progressive and don't have any issues with homosexuality.
We need to pick our battles, folks. Why fight an orginization that on the whole is a great group? There are several groups that are fine on the whole, but may have a few bad apples. If there were lots of "Nays", mainstream Americans WHOM WE NEED TO WIN ANY ELECTION, would think that we are the party of liberal kooky crackpots.

[KnowerOfLogic]

130. Integrity is not built in a day; every one of these votes is either

like adding a brick or taking a brick out of the edifice of our party's integrity. It seems to me that there is far too much opportunistic, short-term thinking in the dem party; they are always positioning and calculating wrt every vote or issue that comes up. They need to develop some core principles and stand up for them consistently. Who is going to vote for a party with no principles, no courage, and no integrity?

[liberal democrat]

131. Yeah standing up agaisnt Boy Scout

that'll really get us new votes. :eyes: :eyes:

[MrSlayer]

122. In the grand scheme of things does this even matter?

I mean really, should we be trashing the Boy Scouts when Chimp is killing people, wrecking the economy and taking away our rights? This is real small potatoes.