As a liberal, I'm beginning to understand how the Jews felt pre WW2

[CatWoman]

They are taking away our rights bit by bit.

The are taking away our leaders, one by one. At this rate, congress will be 100 percent republican in a few years.

They are shutting down dissenting voices in the media, one target at a time.

The lack of outrage over Bush's "win" really bothers me -- especially when faced with the overwhelming evidence of voter fraud.

How soon will we be required to wear an "L" pinned to our left lapels?

[demnan]

1. I'm getting that feeling too

and most people aren't getting the news on the voter fraud unless they watch Keith Olbermann. Soon the "Iron Curtain" will be completely closed.

[zann725]

8. I'm trying to remain hopeful, but feel the same way too...

particularly after Aaron Brown's EXTREMELY edited story with Bev Harris last night. Sure he covered the story...NOT.

If that's the best coverage MSM can do (aside from Keith)...we're in DEEP trouble.

[President Jesus]

2. what is outrageous is your comparison

take a breath and think about retracting that statement.

[CatWoman]

3. nope -- not gonna do it

I find what was done to the Jews dispicable.

I find what is being done to the citizens who don't agree with Bush equally dispicable.

take a breath, and hold it.

[livinbella]

24. Unlike the Jews, no one will come to our rescue... ever

[TwilightZone]

42. Equally despicable? I suggest you pick up a history book.

As soon as Bush kills several million liberals, a comparison will be apt. Before then, it's just completely overblown hyperbole.

[CatWoman]

50. I have picked up SEVERAL history books

he's already killed several thousand Iraqis.

or is that "overblown"????? well, perhaps not to them.

I know -- I know -- Iraqis aren't "Liberals". Which goes to show that Bush is well on his way.

How's Rod Serling doing?

[TwilightZone]

51. Several thousand does not equal several million.

And Hitler was killing millions of his OWN people. As soon as Bush starts doing that, you can claim to understand the plight of the Jews in Germany in the 30's.

Prior to then, it's a ludicrous comparison.

[CatWoman]

58. and he's just getting started

as some are trying to explain to the "challenged", this thread is more about the lead up to rather than the end result.

Look around you.

Am I so wrong in the conditions I've noted?

you're the one who wanted to go directly to the final solution.

I'm talking about the lead up to that "solution"

And one million or one thousand. what's the fucking difference?

Those people were murdered. Period.

If you don't like what I'm saying, that's your perogative.

But you can choke on a bone if you think I'm going to be intimidated at your feigned "outrage" and misunderstanding.

Again, perhaps you should discuss this with Ron. Perhaps he will explain to you that Hitler killed far more than his "own" people.

[placton]

63. Ya see, Catwoman,

you will never convince the people disagreeing with you unless the situation is PRECISELY the same:
-Bush must appoint people named Goebbels, Himmler, etc to office
-he must wear Nazi (not merely USAF) uniforms
-he must grow a "toothbrush" mustache
-he must cause the capitol building to be burned, and then blame it on communists

and on and on

otherwise, there can be no comparison.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwilightZone]

116. "A million times better...For now. " You just agreed to my entire point.

THAT'S MY ENTIRE POINT. WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE GET IT!?!?!??!?!

My point is that comparing our personal situations to those of Jews in Germany is ludicrous. Our lives are MUCH, MUCH better, regardless of how many elections we lose.

If you really believe that Bush is about to round up MILLIONS of liberals and start killing off MILLIONS of liberals, it is you that is hopelessly lost.

You need to take a look at your life and realize that as bad as things get, this is not Nazi Germany.

[Beetwasher]

119. Your Point is Stupid And Meaningless And Ignores The Point Of The Thread

Yeah, for now it's better than Nazi Germany was at it's worst. SO FUCKING WHAT?!!!

So before we can start discussing the parallels we have to wait until we're exactly like Nazi Germany in it's heyday? That's just plain moronic. Learn from history and you might not repeat it. Ignore it at your peril.

[TwilightZone]

128. You missed the point.

"I'm beginning to understand how the Jews felt"

This is utter bullshit. No one who lives in today's America can POSSIBLY understand how the Jews felt, because our society is NOTHING like the oppression that they faced.

Nothing like it.

Let me restate it, since you seem to be having difficulty understanding - regardless of how bad the media and the administration make it, we are light-years better off at our WORST than the BEST cimcumstances faced by the Jews in the 30's.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

190. excuse me...but there are some groups who experienced

a *similar* oppression in THIS country, and for a few centuries at that.

[TwilightZone]

196. Absolutely. I agree completely.

You're right - it's not as though oppression is a new thing in the U.S.

Historically, the rich, white guys have pretty much oppressed everyone - American Indians, blacks, women, and most other ethnic groups - at one time or another, and usually for as long as they can get away with it.

The more things change....

[noiretextatique]

199. unfortunately...it helps them win elections

as we saw this time around with the demonization of gay people.

[TwilightZone]

239. Agreed.

The Republicans playing the "gay" card and the apparent effects of doing so were incredibly disheartening. It seems that tolerance and acceptance are declining (once again) in our society.

[lastliberalintexas]

111. Apparently, you *don't* know history

if you think that the concentration camps or even the Final Solution defines the whole of the Jewish existence in Nazi Germany. Once you read a little more about the 1930s, Hitler's rise to power and consolidation of that power over the German people, then maybe you'll understand a little more.

No one here is trying to minimize what Hitler's Final Solution, the concentration camps, and vilification of the Jews meant for them. But that wasn't how it all *started*. The 1930s brought piecemeal restrictions on the freedoms of Jews, Communists and Gypsies in Germany and its occupied territories. They didn't just all of a sudden decide in a single day to round those people up, you know.

[TwilightZone]

110. Wrong.

The situations are nowhere near the same. The only people blind in this discussion are those that know nothing about history.

I don't know about you, but I can jump in my car and drive wherever the hell I want. I can pick up the phone and call whomever I want. Hell, I can even cricitize the government if I want.

Can ANY of that be said about the Jews in Hitler's Germany?

I didn't think so.

Comparing our lives to those of the Jews in Hitler's Germany is ridiculous. Our situations are a million times better than what went on there.

As soon as the government starts taking away our homes and businesses and starts TRULY putting a clamp on ALL of our personal freedoms, and starts rounding us up and killing us by the thousands, THEN a comparison is apt. Not before.

[CatWoman]

118. dude, or dudette

I've got an excellent idea -- I'll ship you "Holocaust for Dummies"

How's that?

[TwilightZone]

122. If you truly believe that America is anywhere near as bad as Nazi Germany

was, neither I nor anyone else can help you.

You need to step back, take a look at your life, and be thankful that this is NOT Nazi Germany, because we're orders of magnitude better off than the Jews were, regardless of how many elections we lose.

Comparing your life and our society's circumstances to members of a race of people that were nearly annihilated is misguided, at best, and utterly disrespectful, at worst.

[Beetwasher]

129. Tell It The To The Muslims In The Mid-East

who are being bombed and slaughtered daily that we're not trying to annihilate them. See what happens.

I for one will not wait until the gassing starts and the camps open before I wake the fuck up.

[TwilightZone]

141. America is not the Middle East.

Try reading my post next time.

[Beetwasher]

143. Uhhh, And What's Your Point?

I read your post, so what? So the killing is happening over there (for now) to brown people so that's ok w/ you? As long as it's "them" that are being annihiliated it's okey dokey! How pathetic.

[TwilightZone]

147. Wrong.

Try reading it again, this time with your eyes open.

My post has nothing to do with the Middle East. My point is that ANYONE in today's AMERICA (note: not the Middle East) who thinks his or her life is as bad as life was for the Jews in Europe in the 30s is nuts.

Not only is it not as bad now, it is NEVER going to get as bad, regardless of your hysterics to the contrary.

[Beetwasher]

152. Drivel Is Drivel, Eyes Open Or Closed

I read what you wrote and it's denialist bullshit.

No one said the US is as bad as life was for Jews in Europe..yet. That doesn't mean it won't GET that bad. You're clueless if you think all the shit that's happening is just going to stop right where it is. And guess what Chester? For the Muslims in Iraq, LIFE IS ALMOST THAT BAD. But I know you don't care about that because it's brown people who aren't you or anyone you know.

And you also know what, Chester? I don't care if it NEVER get's as bad as '40's Germany (though I do see that that's where these sick fucks are heading and they'll get there as long as people like you continue to have their heads up their asses). It's ALREADY bad here and it IS going to get worse. But as far as your concerned, as long as we don't reach 6 million murdered jews, then it's not as bad as Nazi Germany and that's just okey dokey w/ you!

Pathetic.

[TwilightZone]

160. Ok, smart guy. Name one way in which your personal life is equivalent

to that of a Jewish person in 1930s Germany.

You can think about it while you (or your friends or your family) leave your house or apartment, get in your cars, drive across several states with no "papers" and without being arrested, and go bitch about the election that you voted in while you're partaking of football and eating turkey.

Yep, sounds like a typical Jewish day in 1930s Germany.

Oh, except for the owning property part.

Oh, and the driving around without being arrested part.

That's assuming, of course, that you can avoid the death squads.

Oh, and voting. Though, that one's a tossup, because not everyone's vote counted here, of course. But, then, it could be worse - we could not have any elections, federal, state, or local.

What's pathetic (your favorite word, it seems) is that you actually think your life is really that bad. Amazing.

[lastliberalintexas]

162. I was molested and threatened at an airport

Just within the last month. I was told if I didn't submit to the Department of Homeland Insecurity boys, that I would not be able to travel freely. My "papers" (ie, driver's license) were reviewed by the SS troopers, my person was searched, and I was groped by a TSA employee. I was traveling for work, so I couldn't refuse. I had to get some place or risk losing my job. I was also threatened and bullied by the SS trooper wannabes, and leered at while my body was searched.

I'd say that's pretty close to what Germany was like in the mid 1930s.


My question for you and others- Are you DELIBERATELY missing the point? Are you DELIBERATELY acting as if the OP was talking about the Jews in post 1940 Germany? Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are your cognitive skills truly that poor?

[TwilightZone]

173. Sorry, but it's still not the same.

You were not detained because of your race or your personal beliefs. You weren't detained because you're a liberal. You were detained because wackos flew planes into buildings on US soil, and our government typically overreacted by passing a bunch of mostly-useless laws in a misguided attempt to keep us "safe".

It is NOT the same as Germany in the 30s or 40s. You weren't arrested. You weren't targeted by the police because of your race or your political beliefs. You weren't rounded up with other liberals and sent to a concentration camp.

"I would not have been able to travel freely."

Sure you would have. You can drive anywhere you want. Or take the bus. Or the train. Or any other method of transportation.

If you had been denied air travel, it would have been because you refused a procedure that you already knew to expect and that is being applied ostensibly for safety reasons, not religious, racial, or political ones.

The original post was hyperbole and, I suspect, was intended as such. Nevertheless, the OP and several others have defended the claim that it is not hyperbole, and that it is intended literally.

If it is intended literally, then it is grossly inaccurate.

[lastliberalintexas]

179. Really? How do you know that?

How do you know that this wasn't because of my political beliefs? How do you know that it wasn't because my name is on the state bar roster? Or because my name is on the Dem party membership list? Or because my name is on the ACLU membership list? How do you *know* that?

You don't really, is the short answer. You suspect that it wasn't, and you cling to the notion that this was for "security" reasons. And yet- my bags weren't searched, merely my person. My shoes weren't searched, merely my bra/chest area. I could have been carrying a bomb in my laptop, but never mind that.

The innoculation process has already begun when you become willing to accept unlawful, unconstitutional searches based on neither probable cause nor articulable suspicion. And *that* is the kind of thing that Hitler implemented in PRE-war Germany of the 1930s.

Again, you mentioned concentration camps. By and large, the Jews were NOT rounded up until the early 1940s. There were isolated instances of camps, which were mostly forced labor camps, in the late 1930s- and most of those were intended for the Communists. But the Final Solution was not being implemented that early.

Why do you keep talking about the Final Solution and concentration camps, when that wasn't the defining characteristic of PRE- war Germany? The OP specifically identified PRE-war Germany in her post. Yet you and a few others can't seem to grasp that, and keep arguing about the camps and the Final Solution. Again- are you *deliberately* missing that very salient point?

[TwilightZone]

185. Hitler had concentration camps from the beginning.

"By and large, the Jews were NOT rounded up until the early 1940s. There were isolated instances of camps, which were mostly forced labor camps, in the late 1930s"

That's historically inaccurate. Hitler started concentration camps, etc., almost immediately upon seizing power in 1933. The Nuremberg race laws were passed in 1933. Dachau opened in 1933 and had more than 10,000 prisoners by early 1934.

Why does everyone seem to think that Hitler's rise and power grab was slow and deliberate? It most certainly was not. That's the most misleading argument made in the Bush/Hitler comparisons, intimating that Hitler was sneaky and subversive, when the opposite is true.

The Enabling Law was passed in 1933, essentially making Hitler a dictator. Hitler dissolved all of the trade unions in 1933. The German Parliament Building (Reichstag) was burned down in 1933. All political parties other than the Nazi Party were outlawed in 1934.

Hitler had complete control of the press by 1934.

Today's America is not Nazi Germany, not even the Nazi Germany of 1934, well before Hitler committed the more-well-known atrocities that would follow.

[lastliberalintexas]

200. They were built that early

But the large scale detention and genocidal rampages didn't start until much later. I understand why you do not believe that we are in the throes of our own Final Solution (neither do I), but not why you would turn a blind eye to the frightening similarites of pre-war Germany to our own current regime. There are far too many similarities for my peace of mind.

Yes, you've noted that there are important distinctions between the present day US and pre-war Germany as well. It's obvious to any of us that there are differences- after all, no one said the 2 were mirror images of each other. Just as an example, Bush and the repubs do not have total, complete control of the media at this point because of the varied types of media in this modern day. It is likely impossible for any leader in any industrialized nation today to have as much media control as Hitler did, just because of the changes in the forms and types of media. The intent of those leaders is the same, however.

The jingoistic nationalism/pseudo-patriotism of the rightwing, the religiosity of the fundies, the erosion of constitutional freedoms, the innoculation of the American public to widescale assaults on civil liberties, the vilification of certain groups of people (Arabs/Muslims, gays and lesbians, and non-Christians/believers), the looming economic crisis by which even more of their agenda may be accomplished- these were also traits of Nazi Germany. Fascism is much more than the Final Solution, after all.

So if I fault Cat Woman for anything, it is merely for her focus on the Jewish people of pre-war Germany, rather than focusing on ALL the people who were *aware* of what that government was doing. Those who were aware in 1930s Germany were probably just as unsure, just as frightened, and just as marginalzed as many of us here are and feel.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend that you read "It Can't Happen Here". It makes it a little harder to live in denial about the policies of our own government.

[Telly Savalas]

270. Don't forget this, either...

The Night of the Long Knives

How many Democratic leaders have been murdered in the last 4 years?

[MADem]

245. Every time I fly I get that treatment

And weecowboy did not have the clearance I had when I worked for the gubmint until he got to be pretzeldunce.

It ain't random, it ain't occasional, it is EVERY TIME I FLY...and I have a decades-long public record of service to this country. I am a TARGET. I'm also a Democrat. An ACTIVE Democrat.

I am one of those bastards who ended up on 'the list.' And I don't LIKE IT. The ACLU is going after them, and I'm gonna help them.

I didn't fly any goddamn planes into buildings. I don't even exceed the goddamn speed limit. Sorry, I can't get with your "Father knows best" attitude. I have a right to be free from search and seizure, especially when it is excessive, intrusive, unwarranted, and SINGLES ME OUT, EVERY TIME I FLY, for "the treatment." I've had it--ENOUGH!!!

[Beetwasher]

204. Gitmo, Patriot Act, Gay Marriage Ban, Imperialist War In Iraq

And more, but that's all I need to tell me what's going and what the future holds. If these things aren't eerily familiar to you it's because you're in denial. And yes, it's a pathetic thing to see someone in deep denial.

[CatWoman]

206. maybe he just doesn't keep up with the news

cause he's so busy trying to tell those who are aware of what's going on that they're wrong :shrug:

[TwilightZone]

214. Try reading again.

Next time, read my post first. Name one way YOUR PERSONAL LIFE is equivalent to what Jews faced in pre-war Germany.

Personal life, not generalities. I doubt that you've been in Gitmo, for example.

On second though, don't bother. I think I've had enough of the paranoid, hysterical name-calling for one day. When you had to resort to screaming "Nazi enablers" at the top of your figurative lungs, all further discussion pretty much becomes pointless.

Have a nice life.

[Beetwasher]

219. Bullshit Strawman

And very insightful. It gives you away. As long as nothing effects YOU personally it's okey dokey by you!! Let 'em strip gays of civil rights. No problemo! Deny minorities the right to vote. Cool w/ me daddyo! Commit atrocities and torture people in Iraq. No sweat off my back!

Because it hasn't affected me personally (that you know of, but for all you know my brother could have been killed in Iraq, or maybe I knew people who died on 9/11, or maybe I almost died on 9/11) I shouldn't call it as I see it. My personal life is none of your fucking business and irrelevant. Just because you ASKED about it doesn't mean I should tell you jack shit. If you're position had any merit it should stand regardless of my personal life.

You are a moral coward.

[CatWoman]

272. actually

he's a coward, period.

[bunny planet]

114. you are right, there are so many similarities it is frightening.

Ever read about Paragraph 175, the portion of German law that the Nazis used for their systematic persecution of homosexuals in Germany. Thousands of gay men were rounded up, imprisoned, and killed in Nazi Germany as part of their Aryan nightmare. The Nazi arguement, since homosexuals couldn't or wouldn't procreate more perfect Aryans, they had to be exterminated. Sound familiar. Systematized intolerance and erosion of civil liberties of one group of people can and often does lead to greater and more heinous crimes against humanity in general. Remember the Geneva conventions are now 'quaint', and most of the people in Abu Ghraib were innocent, many of them women and children, tortured. How quaint!!!!

This is happening here, it's just the beginning. Just check out the 20/20 episode that is airing this week where the murder of Matthew Shepard is being recast as a drug buy gone bad rather than the despicable hate crime that it was.

But please, no Hitler references, they make us so uncomfortable, even if they are all too chillingly TRUE. History doesn't exactly repeat itself, but right now, the state of affairs in this 'homeland' is naggingly familiar.

[Niche]

235. Catwoman, you are correct and I'm afraid we have missed the...

opportunity to stop him/them.

[Lerkfish]

59. hmmmm...did he kill them BEFORE he gained complete power or AFTER...

the point of the comparison is the concerted effort to obtain complete power. What Bush does with that power after he gets it, is immaterial because no one will be able to stop him.
The reason for making the comparison is that, if we can extrapolate his meglomania, are we duty-bound to stop him before he gains absolute power?

If someone was afraid Hitler was going to turn into what he became, and expressed their concern, they would have received exactly the same "tut-tut" response as you have given.

food for thought.

IMHO, Bush will prove more dangerous than Hitler ever was. At least Hitler had the allies to bring him down...who will bring Bush down?

[lastliberalintexas]

99. And in fact,

many people (Jews, Communists, intellectuals, even some American and European liberals) did express their concern at what was happening in 1930s Germany. And yes, they did get the same kind of response. Imagine what could have been prevented if those people had been listened to in or before 1938...

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

60. umm sorry...

that big killing began in the 40's

the "endlösung der judenfrage" was set in motion 1941

[Kathy in Cambridge]

61. From 1933-38, the rights of other minorities wer taken away too

Gypsies, Socialists, Communists, Gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic minorities, and many other 'enemies of the Reich' were deprived of their rights as well. There's no doubt that the Jews were the primary argets. It began quietly, and ended in Krystallnacht and then deportations.

Communists and other political enemies were put in camps as early as 1937. The wholesale deportation of Jews didn't start until 1940. Of course, The Nazis intended to commit systematic murder of the Jews. I don't think he Republicns are quite there yet, but their rhetoric is truly frightening. RW radio is firing up the neo-fascists, and 'reality'TV is making it OK to dehumanize perceived enemies. Both types of media encourage nasty behaviour, and justify it.

[Beetwasher]

77. What Crap! So We Should Wait Until Millions Are Killed Before We Can Draw

parallels???

You wait. I'll draw parallels now. I learn from history. You should too.

[CatWoman]

81. ah, my hero shows up!!!

:hi:

:loveya:

[Beetwasher]

94. Hey Hon!

:hi:

These people, unreal...:eyes:

Unless they see people being shoved into ovens then everything's okey dokey!! How dare we notice the similarities and comment on them! We're hurting the cause!!! Fucking idiots...

[TwilightZone]

No.

The comparison is not between Bush and Hitler. The comparison is between the plight of the Jews in Hitler's Germany and the plight of liberals in America.

There is NO comparison. None.

[Beetwasher]

112. Uh Huh

You wait then until they start up the ovens. I'll start yelling about it now. If you can't handle it, too fucking bad.

[Kber]

161. In the late thirties, three Nazi's were brought up on charges of murder

of three Jews imprisoned in what, only later, became called a concentration camp. At the time, the majority of inmates were political prisoners, not Jews.

The guards were acquitted, and the flood gates opened.

When my Jewish great grandfather began buying and hiding diamonds in 1936, ALL of his colleagues and friends told him he was nuts. Those diamonds are what he used to smuggle his wife and three daughters out of Nazi occupied Europe. NONE of those colleagues lived to see the end of the war. Neither did their wives for children. or grandchildren in some cases.

By the time we are worrying about the thousands of American citizens imprisoned or, even worse, executed for their "dangerous" political beliefs, it's too late.

[genieroze]

163. I agree with her except for the Jew = liberal part.

I think this sort of thing is how Hitler came to power. It's like B*sh took a page out of Mein Kampf. Squash dissenting views, control the media etc...Face it we are living in a fascist society. I think it's the Arabs who should be scared not the Jews. Israel is partly to blame for this and no I'm not anti semetic. I blame Israels policies and government just like I blame ours. I'm more than sure many Jews over there and here feel the same way. The people over there have to live in constant terror because of religious differences and it's not right for them or the Palestinians. We have our own religious nuts over here so we are no better. This my God is better than your God crap has got to stop or it's going to kill us all.

[Niche]

232. We are in exact step with Nazi Germany and the lead up to it.

EXACTLY. Do some research.

[formernaderite]

92. equally despicable?

Wow...talk about relativity problems.

[CatWoman]

109. perhaps I should have used slavery as an example,

you think?

:eyes:

[noiretextatique]

191. nah...nothing remotely *oppressive* about that

:argh:

[ohioan]

274. Ummm - no

Observing this "O'Lordy, I'm as oppressed as a Jew in Nazi Germany because my candidate didn't win the last general election" from a bunch of mostly white, middle class, comfortable-enough-to-own-a-computer-and-have-internet-access-and-enough-free-time-to-post-their-every-political-thought-and-belief has literally taken my breath away.

Damn. How pathetic.

[AntiCoup2K4]

4. There is NOTHING outrageous about the comparison!

Hitler was "elected" under questionable circumstances, then the Reichstag was attacked and civil liberties were restricted soon after. The media became little more than a mouthpiece for the Reich regime and then the invasions began, in the name of securing the homeland.

What part of that doesn't sound familiar to you?

And if Junior/PNAC have followed Hitler's playbook so far, what makes you think they won't continue to do so?

[Webster Green]

9. No shit! The comparisons are screamingly obvious.......

But we are supposed to ignore them. To mention the similarities is considered "over-the-top" or "beyond-the-pale". Why? The chimp is a power-crazed, babbling, psychopathic murderer. He is about to start lobbing nukes at our "enemies".

Wake the fuck up, everyone!

[MADem]

250. Media Mouthpiece: Rumor has it

That Dan Rather's replacement will be Diane Sawyer, who got her start where??? Why, in the Nixon White House, where only Republicans might apply! Fit the bill? Yea, I'd say so....

[Hell Hath No Fury]

16. The plight of the Jews in Germany....

didn't start with concentration camps.

It started almost a decade before, with the demonization of them by a "christian", nationalistic movement.

Jews, liberals, intellectuals = b-a-d, heard day in and day out, from leaders and in the press, until folk started to believe it.

And from there, the slow creep towards the camps began.

We are in the first stages, and have been for almost 20 years. Our creep is a little slower because of protections we've had in place, but it IS there.

If you don't see it, you are blind...

[placton]

21. And Remember: the Roman Catholic Church

was helping the Nazis at most every turn. Sound familiar? The RCC has supported right wing dictators for centuries - especially the last 2.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

27. Yes...

shamefully they did.

One of the more tragic episodes of the RRC.

[AntiCoup2K4]

48. Now, in fairness... Pope JP did condemn Junior's invasion of Iraq

...and has apparently hinted that the Chimp could be the Antichrist on more than one occasion. So I'm not sure it's accurate to say that the Vatican supports Junior. Though certain right wing Catholics definitely do.

[DemBones DemBones]

127. Then explain why the chief rabbi of Rome became a Catholic after WW II

ended, publicly saying he was awed by the sacrifices made by nuns, priests, and Catholic laity, and giving great praise to Pope Pius XII's leadership AGAINST the Nazis.

Explain why, when Pius did in 1958, Jews around the world, including Golda Meir, Albert Einstein, and Leonard Bernstein, praised Pius's life of service.

Explain why thousands of trees were planted in Israel, in memory of Pius and how he had helped the Jewish people.

Pius was a virtual prisoner in the Vatican during the war. If he had been too outspoken against Hitler, it could have hurt the Jews more than it helped. It was a situation where those opposing the Nazis from within Nazi territory could save some Jews but if they made a show of saving them all, the Nazis would have killed them all.

The charges that Pius didn't do "enough" or even collaborated with Hitler were not made by the people who lived through the Nazi era in Germany or Italy, and actually begun with a work of fiction, a play, in the late 1950s. There were some German bishops and priests who were blinded by love for Germany and grateful ti Hitler for what they saw as a restoration of their country's values. It took time, after all, for people to realize what was happening in the camps.

I tend to think the people who lived through it and saw what the Catholic people did to help the Jews are more reliable witnesses. Besides that, Catholics themselves were put in the camps and many died there. Catholics were on Hitler's list of undesirables.

Everyone has heard Martin Niemoller's "When they came foe the trade unionists, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. . ."

But I'll bet that few DUers even know that the next line is "When they came for the Catholics, I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant."

Here's the quote:

"First the Nazis came for the Communists; and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews; and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

When they came for the trade unionists I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

And when they came for the Catholics I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me... and by that time there was no one left to speak for anyone."

-- Attributed to Pastor Martin Niemoeller

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/heritage/episode8/



Seen "Schindler's List" ? Oskar Schindler, who kept a list of Jewish people to save, and saved them. Oskar Schindler was a devout Catholic.

Many of the families who hid Jews in their homes were Catholic. Jews were hidden in churches, convents, and monasteries, at great risk to the Catholics involved.

Go to Florence, Italy, and tour the synagogue, destroyed by bombs in WW II. The tour guide will tell you that the Catholic citizens of Florence helped them rebuild the synagogue the Germans bombed.

Or continue to sit here resplendent in your ignorant bigotry.

[placton]

150. My friend

again, the parallels are frightening. I beleive that much of the Catholic Church did not support the extermination of the Jews. BUT - the bishops in Germany thought the right wing mileu from which Hitler sprung was great - until they got it in the neck too (much as Catholics here will be persecuted when their age old fundie enemies take over). The Church supported Franco. The Church loves fascism - when couched in terms of religion. It hates it when, as it has for centuries, ends up in persecution of itself.

[pelagius]

175. Well said! n/t

[MADem]

252. Pius made a deal with Hitler

You spare the Vatican, and leave me my treasure, and I will low-key your atrocities. Sure, he handed out a few passports to Jewish kids, many of whom (like Madeleine Albright) never KNEW or remembered that they were Jewish, depending on where they ended up.

Lord knows he didn't want his tiny empire burned and looted...and that swell summer place, too.

It's all about the MONEY. Pius could have taken a real stand, and risked the destruction of his treasures, but instead he cut a deal to keep his "stuff" safe. Things being more important than people...

[Sinti]

28. thank you

I'm afraid you are right. I can see it also, but this time they're smarter if anything, going slower. We're a frog in a pot. Christian Reconstruction, PNAC, Corporate government for the few, slaves of the many. The Ahmanson and Rushdooney's paradise. Christian Coalition schools of politicians, media, and judges. This is something that should be fought by any means, not accepted as something that will just pass over. Sound alarmist? Not really, just watching history.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

19. I agree with you.

[LibertyorDeath]

35. what is outrageous is your is Your inability to see the writing

on the Wall.

It's in BLOCK LETTERS for fuck sakes!

In 2004, we again stand at the same crossroad Roosevelt and Wallace confronted during the Great Depression and World War II. Fascism is again rising in America, this time calling itself "compassionate conservatism." The RNC's behavior today eerily parallels the day in 1936 when Roosevelt said, "In vain they seek to hide behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the flag and the Constitution stand for."

http://www.betterworld.com/getreallist/article.php?story=20040812154536702

[Guaranteed]

133. Don't worry- we're only at about the 1936 stage right now.

Things'll get worse, and then you can say, "Yes, NOW it's like the Jews."

[WebeBlue]

5. Been feeling the same way and each day with new

and outrageous information that points to stripping away privileges and rights I enjoyed as a citizen of this country, I feel more and more like what it must have been like for the citizens in pre-Nazi/Hitler Germany. I watch, as they must have, in hope against hope that what I am seeing is not "real", can't really be happening, will correct itself with a course adjustment....but I fear more daily it will not.

[kittenpants]

22. I know what you mean. It's hard to believe my own eyes...

like the Bush, Our Leader billboard in Orlando, the screening of children for mental disorders, not to mention fixing the election... The worst thing is not knowing how to stop it. I really want to take action, but aside from living my life according to my own beliefs, I don't know how to make a big difference in what is happening.

I guess it just takes us all doing our small parts and spreading the truth.

[placton]

6. Cat Woman is right.

When a few of us, 4 years ago, started writing about the Nazi-fication of our country, we were similarly told to shut up. We were told "it won't happen here." We were told the American people would not permit this to happen.

Bullshit! We need to start looking to get out of what used to be a democracy.

[Danocrat]

7. Now just calm down

In four short years it will turn around. For the next election they won't be able to use "you don't want to change leaders in midstream" reasoning because he will have been in office for 8 years. They won't be able to use the abortion scam because it will be illegal by that time. They won't be able to use the gay issue because we'll all be in camps.

Yea, it's sarcasm, I agree with Cat

[JaneDoughnut]

10. Yeah, pretty outlandish

The Jews were persecuted not for dissent, but for race. It didn't matter what your political beliefs, lifestyle, etc were. And the consequences they faced were much worse than simply being ostracized and marginalized.

I'm not happy about what's going on in the US right now, and yes, I see some similarities between Bush and Hitler. But the burden us dissenters have to bear doesn't even compare to the plight of the Jews.

Ironically, Arab-Americans might be facing the closest parallel to what the Jews faced in WWII Europe.

[placton]

12. Add African-Americans to the list. (N/T)

[CatWoman]

14. I should think it was a combination of dissent AND race

Hitler didn't give a fuck.

If you didn't go along with his program you died.

if you were of the wrong "race" you died.

Just as Hitler combined the two, so is Bush.

[Webster Green]

15. The differences do not negate the similarities.....

And the chimp is just starting to break his stride. He has a "broad mandate", to carry out his agenda!

Creepy!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

25. And the liberals Hitler demonized?

That was a "race" thing? And the intellectuals who dissented? And those Gypsies? And the pink triangle crowd?

[prodigal_green]

30. gays will be the new Jews

and they went for the Communists first (this actually played into anti-semetism because many progressive thinkers of the day were Jewish).

I have heard several people who have escaped from brutal dictatorships who now live here express concern.

Hitler was a lot more than Auschwitz.

[AntiCoup2K4]

46. Gays don't need to be "the new Jews", they can be the "new gays"

Remember where the pink triangle came from? The original Nazis singled out homosexuals as well. So that leaves the slot for "New Jews" open to us liberals. And the Muslims, have obviously been targeted already.

[Felix Mala]

101. gays are the new communists

we're out of the closet and hiding under the bed

[Kber]

168. Hitler found time and resources to "tackle" the both the Jewish and the

Homosexual "problems". Gays, political dissentors, religious leaders who were too loud in their objections, etc., served as the Nazi's "test" populations. Once people got used to folks being rounded up and "dissapeared" for questionable reasons, then they moved more agressively towards racial cleansing.

There's room for both of us on those trains. But, I promise, I won't let anyone go with out a fierce fight!

[DBoon]

36. homosexuals are the new Jews

eom

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

68. you are wrong

first of in germany there were concentration camps for commies, socialists, jews, gypsies. which were prison camps. The big murderindustrie in the kill-camps started 1941

[w4rma]

79. Judaism is a religion. anti-Islam is the parallel to the anti-Hebrew

percecution of Nazi Germany.

Semitism is an ethnicity (i.e. race). And the folks in Palestine and Israel are mostly all Semitic.

The gays of Nazi-Germany and the liberals and the intellectuals were already percecuted in Nazi-Germany. They are their own parallels.

[JaneDoughnut]

120. All points noted

But the original post did refer to the Jews. Yes, there are parallels, yes, Bush would love to be dictator, yes, Ashwipe did his best to get political prison camps in place. And yes, we need to stop the neo-cons in their tracks. But I do not believe there will be a Holocaust to purge the US of everyone who spoke out against Bush.

Why do we feel the need to claim the most dramatic victim label we can?

[Mist]

11. That's why I'm keeping the back door open re: Canada or elsewhere

[veracity]

13. Having been born in Hitler Germany....I agree....

I was a child, for sure, but the Hitler years were a vivid part of my upbringing, even after the family sought refuge in the US. The desciptions of the change from the safety of the Weimar Republic to the horrors of the Third Reich are VERY similar to what is happening here.

It would take a history book (such as the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) to explain the insiduous and calculated transformation from democracy to dictatorship during the thirties in Hitler's Germany. But, nothing, absolutely, nothing could have happened without the control of the mass media. Propaganda is disseminated through the media, and without the ability to cloud and control the thiniking of the masses, you do NOT effect the kind of change happening in this country, now.

Remember that NO ONE is talking about the war, any more. No news, no discussions, no WMD's, no questions. No one is talking about Valerie Plame. No one is talking about the secret Energy Task Force meetings, on and on and on. The media is complicit, via fear or intimidation or need to kowtow to corporate interests. No matter... we are on our way.


Resist!
http://www.tvnewslies.org/cart/view_product.php?product=BLA2SW7J4

[placton]

17. But soon, there will be another exciting

MURDER TRIAL! Robert Blake's or maybe Phil Spector's. You know, important stuff. Far better than that boring political shit.

[Danocrat]

20. veracity

:yourock:

[LibertyorDeath]

45. Thank You

"It would take a history book (such as the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) to explain the insiduous and calculated transformation from democracy to dictatorship during the thirties in Hitler's Germany. But, nothing, absolutely, nothing could have happened without the control of the mass media. Propaganda is disseminated through the media, and without the ability to cloud and control the thiniking of the masses, you do NOT effect the kind of change happening in this country, now."

[Kathy in Cambridge]

71. It began with the Moral Majority, helped along by the Fairness Doctrine's

dissolution. The RW hate machine honed its teeth during the Clinton years while those of u that were benefitting from the good economy and happy times weren't paying attention. It reminds me of the Weimar Republic definitely. I feared that if Kerry became President, the RW hate machine would mobilize some whackjob to assassinate him.

[Felix Mala]

97. I just gave Rise and Fall of Third Reich as a gift

because I was telling this friend how insidiously it all comes about... seemingly normal people swept up in a dangerous/violent movement... by the time they start breaking glass over the heads of gays and liberals, it'll be too late to stop it...

You can buy the book at amazon...

If you don't have time, watch Cabaret... It, too, illustrates the slippery ease with which people came to believe in the movement.

[Kber]

171. Heard an interview with the author of the Rise and Fall

and he talked about how frustrating it was to be a reporter in pre-war germany. Hitler had basically spelled out his plans, in great detail, in Mein Kampf (sp) for anyone to read. He couldn't imagine how anyone was suprised in 1946 when it was all spelled out so clearly in the mid-thirties in his "how-to" manual.

PNAC?

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

18. If I may?

Could we please not compare ourselves to the six million Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis? It's about as disrespectful of those six million dead, their families, and those who suffered along with them, but did not die, as can be.

Thank you.

[placton]

26. At this point in time, in the 30s

those 6 million were all saying "It can't happen here" and "We will live through this." So, yeah, we should compare ourselves to them - at a comparable time in history.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

29. Not even close.

Complete and total hyperbol. Not even worth arguing.

No offense intended...Just read my name. ;)

[LibertyorDeath]

123. You are saying this is hyperbol? LOL good call

(Sarcasm off) how do you reach this erudite analysis of modern day America I'm sitting on the edge of my seat. Bring It On !

veracity (584 posts) Wed Nov-24-04 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. Having been born in Hitler Germany....I agree....



I was a child, for sure, but the Hitler years were a vivid part of my upbringing, even after the family sought refuge in the US. The desciptions of the change from the safety of the Weimar Republic to the horrors of the Third Reich are VERY similar to what is happening here.

It would take a history book (such as the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) to explain the insiduous and calculated transformation from democracy to dictatorship during the thirties in Hitler's Germany. But, nothing, absolutely, nothing could have happened without the control of the mass media. Propaganda is disseminated through the media, and without the ability to cloud and control the thiniking of the masses, you do NOT effect the kind of change happening in this country, now.

Remember that NO ON(E is talking about the war, any more. No news, no discussions, no WMD's, no questions. No one is talking about Valerie Plame. No one is talking about the secret Energy Task Force meetings, on and on and on. The media is complicit, via fear or intimidation or need to kowtow to corporate interests. No matter... we are on our way.

[LibertyorDeath]

131. "Fascism Anyone?,"

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
and let's not forget the failed "Bring 'em on!"
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
The Bush administration has concluded for the first time that some non-Iraqi prisoners captured by American forces in Iraq are not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions
House bill looks to legalize torture by foreign operatives
Ashcroft refuses to give Congress torture memo
July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: The United States on Tuesday suspended military assistance to nearly 50 countries, because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.
Outsourcing Torture: Contractors act as interrogators: Defense Department turned to private sources to question prisoners for intelligence gathering.
US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention
al-Qaida Detainees 'Disappeared' : At least 11 al-Qaida suspects have "disappeared" in U.S. custody, and some may have been tortured, Human Rights Watch said in a report issued Monday.
President Bush today distanced himself from his administration’s quiet effort to push through a law that would make it easier to send captured terror suspects to countries where torture is used.
Guantanamo Eyes Possible Execution Chamber
Bush Civil Rights report released: "...the administration has failed to exhibit leadership or define a clear focus, relegating civil rights to a low priority."

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
Cheney warns that if Kerry is elected, the USA will suffer a "devastating attack"
A scared populace is a compliant populace Terrorists are likely planning U.S. attacks, a U.S. Homeland Security official said Friday.
Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
How U.S. Attorney-General, a Christian Evangelist With Anti-Islamic Views On Record, Is Waging War On American Muslims
Dr. James J. Zogby: A co-ordinated and bigoted assault The anti-Arab campaign being waged today in the U.S. is an organised multi-pronged effort targeting a variety of Arab leaders, institutions and Islam.
Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'
More
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[Danocrat]

32. Yes

I think CatWoman would like not to see this repeated and thus, speaks out. If only more would.

[lukasahero]

31. No one is doing so

That would be saying we feel like the Jews after WWII.

The point that is being made is that freedoms were taken away bit by bit, the media was controlled to turn neighbor against neighbor so that they learned to hate the Jews (and gays and artists among others, by the way). It did not start with the gas chambers.

The only way "never again" is ever going to be a reality is to understand how these things start in the first place and stop blaming those who are trying to wake people up to it for "disrepecting" those who died. We know they died. We also know how and why it was allowed to happen.

[sandnsea]

33. OR

If there is a heaven or spirit world, and they are able to see, they may be there in tears and outrage and screaming "Stand Up and Stop This Madness".

Between what is happening here and what is happening in Iraq, I completely understand Nazi Germany. When you see the refugees going to the camps in Iraq, I completely understand this is a bi-product of war. Something Europe was probably used to because of WW1. So when "war" came through and people were moved to "refugee camps", no wonder nobody thought anything about it. Look at how often it is one ethnic or religious group or other in a country. Simple, very simple. Easier than we care to imagine.

[livinbella]

34. It is happening, every day we get closer

Better open those peepers, the day of horror draws near

[Sinti]

47. name change

You are comparing the outcome and the end game.
At this point in time, we are comparing the lead in.
You have many, many of the same institutions in place prepared to do many of the same things. You are being as reality-based as other koolaid drinkers. They are amassing the power to do as they please, look around you, even people who actually read news, who want to know what is happening in the world are being fooled because it's preferable to other possibilities. People will say but all the media points to (insert whatever vice) being the
cause of danger to America. The intelligent are "elitists". The Liberals have no "moral values." And dear god, the homophobia is rampant. They are using fear just as fear was used then. Awareness is the beginning of defense.

[CatWoman]

53. try to look at the bigger picture

do yourself a favor.

or should I wait until he shoves all our asses in an oven before drawing comparisons?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

73. There is no need to use the deaths of 6 million Jews to make a point.

There are better ways. Bash me all you want, but that's the truth.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

89. You're wrong...And I can only assume you know it.

...But I won't go any further than saying "I can only assume you know it", I'll just leave you with this as proof (My "Out of the gate" post)...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1386811&mesg_id=1386875&page=

"If I may?

Could we please not compare ourselves to the six million Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis? It's about as disrespectful of those six million dead, their families, and those who suffered along with them, but did not die, as can be.

Thank you."


Not even CLOSE to an "Insult". Seems you're the one who can't "Stand the heat", even when it's not only not "Hot", but not disrespectful at ALL!

[CatWoman]

100. again, with the "hyperbol"???

:eyes:

[Beetwasher]

121. We HONOR The Memory of the Six Million By STOPPING NAZI'S

Before they get a chance to do it again. NEVER FORGET! You are forgetting.

I had many relatives die in Nazi Germany and several who escaped. I know holocaust survivors, they are family.

People need to wake the fuck up, you included. The Nazi's are back and they aren't here to play tiddley winks.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

154. You're spreading propaganda.

Hyperbole and propaganda.

I'm all for good, fun, interesting "What if" chit-chat, but what you're suggesting is so far out of the relm of possibility, it makes you look like you've lost your mind...If you're serious, that is. And fortunately, we both know you're not.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

157. You don't have a shred of proof to support your claims...

...And I wish you would give it up. Such outlandish claims make us all look foolish by association.

Or maybe you're doing it on purpose for some reason?

Either way, I'm done with you because there is obviously no reasoning with you.

[Beetwasher]

202. Gitmo, Patriot Act, Gay Marriage Ban, Imperialist War In Iraq

And more, but that's all I need to tell me what's going and what the future holds. If these things aren't eerily familiar to you it's because you're in denial.

[Sinti]

90. Perhaps

But by the same token, we are talking about before the mass murders, and we are talking about someone whose grandfathers were involved with Hitler. I am here because my family (French) had the foresight to send my mother away in 1939 because she was ill and a gypsy. My grandfather was with the Free French, my grandmother an English woman in France during occupation. If they had closed their eyes and took a deep breath, I wouldn't be here now.

[bunny planet]

125. What about the of 100,000 Iraqis, give or take a few thousand? Where's

your outrage about that.

[LibertyorDeath]

55. See Post 13 ...You are missing the Point Entirely

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

64. No I'm not.

There is no comparison. And anyone with any sense knows it.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

84. I mean you no disrespect, I really don't...

...but this is something I feel passionatly about. Due to the experiences of a close friend/family member.

Bush is an idiot of epic proportions, but this was nothing more than a bad election loss. We've had them before, and we'll have them again. Comparing America, in any state, to Nazi Germany is hyperbol at best.

[CatWoman]

88. feeling passionately about something is one thing

hurling insults because you don't comprehend something is quite another.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

95. Show me the insult or please stop lying about me?

Here is my proof...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1386811&mesg_id=1387172

[CatWoman]

102. again, with the "hyperbol"?

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

106. Hyperbol"E"?? Maybe???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1386811&mesg_id=1387207

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

82. s'cuse dude

you actually knew Stalin outdid Hitler in "cleansing" the Ukrainian cleanse? entire slave population cities in siberia?

and you know how that all startet? get yerself a history book (and if it features creationism...change it)

[LibertyorDeath]

148. "There is no comparison." YES THERE IS!!

http://colombia.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/15930.php

If you still hold the same opinion after reading this then
there's nothing more to say.

[Left Brain]

57. I respect your feelings

However, I personally believe that CatWoman has a valid point in citing how our Jewish brothers and sisters must have felt pre-WW2 as their rights and humanity were stripped, bit by bit, day by day, until the Nazis reached their ultimate goal of genocide.

What resulted at Dachau, Auschwitz, Treblinka and the rest of the death camps cannot be forgotten. We owe it to every man, woman, and child who lived through and died at the hand unspeakable horrors to ensure that it never happens again. What better time to make the comparison than when dissenting Americans are standing at the gates of annihilation?

Shalom, RNTF.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

66. And I, yours.

But this is hyperbol.


I'm all for spirited discussion, even exaggerating to make a point, but this is as disrespectful as can be.

I find it sad and appauling.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

74. I wasn't speaking to you.

And I'll comment on anything I like. Regardless of your insults and flames.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

98. scroll down further

don't call me a liar.

You posted over and over calling my sentiments "hyperbol" whatever the fuck that is.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

104. It means I don't have a problem with exaggeration...

...when trying to make a point, but I must ask, based on my own personal experiences with a very important Jew in my life, that we not minimize their suffering in Nazi Germany by comparing it to our current situation (As shitty as it may be).

And, I'm sorry, but I'm a poor speller...Always have been, always will be.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

113. Yes it does.

America, even in its current shitty state, is not even close to Nazi Germany...Not even in the same ballpark.

And that is "Reality".

[CatWoman]

115. well there is perception

and then there's conceived perception.

Have a good day.

[Beetwasher]

126. Guess What? WHO THE FUCK CARES IF WE AIN'T THERE YET???

That's fucking stupid and dangerous. So we should only speak out AFTER they start gassing people????

Bush, Hitler, same shit, different asshole. These Nazi's are JUST GETTING STARTED.

You sound like 1930's German. "Oh, the Nazi's aren't so bad, what could they possibly do? That Hitler, how bad could he be? No need to speak up or saying anything. Everything will get better, you'll see!"

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

158. Ummmm....

...Oh forget it...

Have a happy life in your world. :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

105. It is having History that we do not repeat past mistakes. Women are

being targeted by this administration, they want to send our daughters to maternity farms. GLBT are being targeted by this administration...let us think upon how they may attempt to "heal" them. Tests for mental disorders. Come on. This is not the country in which I grew up, and if we turn a blind eye to it and spit upon it now, we may regret it later. I have to agree with CatWoman. Those Jews were not dead in the beginning. It was just little rights that were taken away. We have an administration blinded by power, and driven by hatred and grudgery.

[Journeyman]

23. Here's an exercise I've seldom seen on this board. . .

give us a list of how present-day America differs from Hitlerian Germany, and what those differences may portend for our struggle. Surely if you can see the similarities you can recognize divergent points as well. I'd be interested in your take on this.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

261. and you're more interested in blowing smoke

1. I just saw the above post, as this thread grew quickly and equally quickly contentious.

2. The only reason this thread became a flame war is because of smary posters, you included. How dare you speak for me? Who died and left you king?

3. Maybe Woody can set you up with one of his children. Now there's someone you can really speak for.

4. I've completely had it with your stalking.

[robbedvoter]

37. Apt comparison, but I am confused about the "leaders" part.

We had leaders?

[CatWoman]

56. LOL

OK -- You've got me.

Make that "quasi leaders" :D

:hi:

[pelagius]

38. The trouble with on-line references to Nazis...

...is that they immediately turn the discussion away from the issue at hand and into a furious debate about whether whatever Nazi analogy has been made is appropriate.

See "Godwin's Law" at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ for more details about this effect.

Mike Godwin himself wrote an article describing his "memetic engineering" that led to his eponymous law:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html

(Second link added on edit.)

[placton]

44. Yes, we need to be nice and reasonable

little liberals. And make careful, nuanced, cogent arguments. Boy, that's a terrific suggestion! Let's try it in our next campaign!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelagius]

166. I expected have that post deleted, but thought I'd have some fun...

...in the meantime.

Since I'm not allowed to be anything but nice on DU, let me rephrase my post:

Dear fellow Democrat,

It appears I failed to communicate my message to you properly and you possibly misunderstood the intent of my post. I apologize heartily for such an error on my part. Please forgive me.

If you would be so good as to reconsider what I wrote, you might see that I am proposing that on-line references to Nazis have been observed by longtime Internet denizens -- not that experience or empirical observation should in any way count more than ill-informed misreadings, of course! -- to rarely improve the tone of on-line discourse. In fact, many are so bold as to assert that such references effectively end all discussion of the issue at hand.

I realize this statement is so definitive it could make people uncomfortable, so I apologize for bringing it up. Again, I must beg your forgiveness.

If you will please excuse me, I am very late for an appointment to fellate an Christian Dominionist Republican. Thank you for your kind consideration of this message.

Yours in solidarity,

Modesty Forbids

[maxwall]

39. I see similarities as well...

For an interesting read, check out "Defying Hitler" by Haeffner... Excellent and very frightening, given the times...

[2Design]

40. exactly

[Zinfandel]

41. The huge difference is there are a lot more of us than there are them...

And that's not even including the homeless, much of the poor, and the indifferent middle class (who won't be middleclass for long).

The republican owned media is what they have...powerful without a doubt...Where do we start?

Getting rid of electronic voting machines, (BBV) so we can again have somewhat more fair elections.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

117. Not to mention the "Them" who would align with "Us"...

...Should something as preposterous as this get close to reality.

This is America. We may have political disagreements, but when the chips are down, even the most strident partisans stand together!!

[hiphopnation]

134. not only that

but reconnecting with your communities through activism and networking. Getting down to real grassroots efforts, mobilizing the effort, finding like-minded pockets of people all over the country. They haven't shut down local Dem meetings yet. Use them! They're not fashionable or glamorous but there are literally TONS of concerned people out there who are also focused and paying attention and are ready to work and fight this shit.

Take one day a week and seek them out. Start organizing.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

146. GREAT POST!!!

And a BIG reason for my new name.

I'm interested in real world problems and real world solutions. I see too many people running around like a chiken with their head cut-off screaming about the Boogie Man...And everyone knows, you can't kill the Boogie Man!!

Leave the far-fetched tin-foil theories for fun chit-chat, but don't let them run your political life...GET OUT AND MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE!!

:)

[hiphopnation]

178. So am I.

I submit that it starts with turning off your computer and going to a local meet-up or march or talking to neighbors or organizing a meeting yourself. Even better, get involved with a local campaign. It changed my life and turned me into an activist forever.

As valuable a forum as it is, DU can often serve as something of an echo chamber and begin to have diminishing returns.

[pelagius]

187. One of the few sane posts in this thread. READ IT.

(I'll throw my own nut-baiting posts in with the rest of the swill.)

I envision many DU posters sitting in front of their computers with the TV on for hours at a time bewailing the fate of the nation. It's bad enough without wallowing in it. Unplug and get active!

In fact, here's a challenge:

Give up TV and the computer one night a week and use that time to connect with an organization working to better your community. Doesn't have to be a Democratic organization -- just a group that's making a positive effort. You don't even have to "do" anything; just hang out with them.

In three months, I'll guarantee you'll have a different outlook. And then you'll be ready for the next challenge:

Cancel your cable/satellite TV and send the money you save -- about $50/mo in my area -- to a progressive cause. For example, throw the $600 annual savings in one lump to your local Democratic Committee and you will automatically become one huge, swinging di*k with loads of influence. You'll be kicking Nazi tail left and right if you take advantage of the opportunity.

I dare you to do it.

[GreenArrow]

159. there are not that many liberals

there are a whole lot of liberal leaning moderates who, when push comes to shove, will cast their lot with whichever side is winning.

[Touchdown]

43. Not to trump you, but try being a gay American.

Sorry, I get you, but it could be worse.

[vixannewigg]

52. Try Being a Jew.....

I am not comfortable with how much power the religious right is exerting in our government right now. Jews don't try to convert people of other religions, but Christians do. Fundamentalists have no respect for people of other religions....just pity.

I do see the comparison to a small extent. I would like to believe that Americans have enough sense to see what's going on, but I'm not sure. I was especially disappointed that MORE Jews voted for Bush this time than last time. I'm guessing this was because they saw Bush as being more pro-Israel. My grandmother had an editorial that had been circulated around our local JCC basically saying that Kerry was going to give up Israel for support from Europe. No facts. But she believed it, because Kerry did not address the issue enough. She did not vote for Bush, but I know a few Jews who did and most of them could not give any decent reasons.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. That marrige...

between some American Jews and the "christian" fundies is one of the most bizarre/dangerous/evil meeting of agendas I have ever seen.

To any Jew who would vote for Bush because of his supposed pro-Israel stance -- wake the fuck up. He and the people he represents want you converted and the way paved for the return of Christ. A little short term security doesn't mean dick in the end if the "christian" right are trying to bring about Armageddon (which would take place in your homeland, btw).

Talk about your deal with the devil....

I share your worry completely.

[pelagius]

70. You are quite correct.

The "love" the Armageddonist Christian fundies are sending out to Jews currently is based on their beliefs that Israel and the Jewish people are cat's paws to bring about the Second Coming of Christ ala Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Dallas Theological Seminary, et. al.

For what it's worth, their allies in worldwide Judaism tend to be cut from the same nutjob cloth as they are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

172. Kerry Got 75% Of The Jewish Vote...

That's more than other group including gays except for African Americans...

[Vickers]

49. My suggestion? Embrace the 2nd Amendment

Ever see movies or shows about the Warsaw Ghetto? Jews there who had guns were bad-ass. I know it's a gross generalization, but many liberals are anti-gun...might be a good time to reassess that stance, at least privately.

Read some Thomas Jefferson.

Go to a gun-safety class.

Get a concealed weapon permit.

[JaneDoughnut]

83. You can't say that online!

To the gulags with you!

[Teaser]

75. No you don't.

You just don't.

Post again when you get a Krystallnacht or something. Then maybe you'll have a point.

[CatWoman]

86. I refer to you my good friend, Beetwasher's post

number 77.

[Teaser]

145. Your good friend Beetwasher is wrong.

We don't have to wait till millions have died. It might be nice to wait for the US to install a leader who has explicitly advocated our destruction and/or removal from public life.

It might also be nice to wait until there are several thousand years of pogrom's executed against us. It might also be nice to wait until we look back on that history and see the liberal people being expelled from country after country. Seeing us scapegoated for the death of a world religions founder...I could go on, but if you don't get the point now I'm not sure I have the patience to continue dealing with you.

Your post was hyperbole. I know it, and you know it. Really everyone here knows it. And hyperbole is fine. But launching a spirited defense as to why it was not hyperbole is a problem.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

149. You sir, are a refreshing voice of reason!!

You speak the simple truth, and I thank you for it. Very well said! I agree 100% (And so does anyone who is simply honest with themself).

[CatWoman]

169. I employ both of you to read the rational comments in this thread

from people who understand where I'm coming from.

Obviously you don't, and you are the minority.

Four out of 100 ain't bad.

I refuse to take responsibility for your stubborn need to try to alter my points to fit your angst.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

174. I have read the thread...

...and you know as well I do that we aren't even CLOSE to Nazi Germany here...As bad as it may be.

And to suggest as much is so far out of bounds, it's not even worth debate...just ridicule.

[CatWoman]

180. again, I have my opinion

and you have yours.

See ya in the gulag.

But then, I'm black, so I probably won't make it that far.

As for your "ridicule", again, the vast majority of posters agree with my view. Are we ALL wrong, and the four of you dissenters are correct?

Hot damn!!!! I'm a minority in the majority.

Ain't America great!!!??!!!

You need your own website to spread your vast knowledge and vocabulary around the web.

Won't you PLEASE think of the children?????

[212demop]

256. Make that five.

I came in late, but I've read up to this point and I'm with them.

- a child of survivors

[CatWoman]

258. ok, "Five"

p.s. - you're not the only "child of survivors" on this thread.

so, now that's Five out of over 100.

you guys gonna have a party?

[TwilightZone]

263. Majority rule, hmm?

A majority of people agreeing on an assertion does not make it correct.

If you believe the opposite to be true, I guess that you'll be agreeing with every bill the Republicans in Congress submit for the next four years, since the Republicans, after all, are the majority.

[CatWoman]

273. well, I'll defer to you

you can be the Minority King, ok?

plus, I think you're just trying to be difficult and disrupt.

Are you that lonely?

[CatWoman]

164. I've counted four of you who have said that repeatedly

out of a thread containing over 140 responses.

Your facts don't mirror the reality of the situation.

I'm sorry if you can't see the forest. Or the trees. Only my "perceived" hyperbole. Which is fine.

You're not adding anything to the conversation other than "your post is hyperbole".

However, the vast majority of the posters on this thread agree with my "hyperbole".

You're more than welcome to start your own thread, along with the other three, to continue to call out my "hyperbole". You'll be in good company.

However, I don't want your company.

I stated events as I perceive them.

I stated events and compared them to the tactics employed to destroy people prior to an unjust and bloody, costly war.

Yet you and your "buds" want to tell me that I'm wrong for seeing these things.

You and your "buds" want to keep telling me that the only way to discuss this issue is to compare what Hitler did to people AFTER he dismantled democracy. I'm not ready to go to the post effects until I fully understand the events leading up to them.

Again, I stated events as "I" see them.

[TwilightZone]

182. Hitler "dismantled democracy" a lot earlier than you apparently think.

The Enabling Law was passed in 1933, essentially making Hitler a dictator.

Hitler dissolved all of the trade unions in 1933.

The German Parliament Building (Reichstag) was burned down in 1933.

The Nuremberg race laws were passed in 1933.

Dachau opened in 1933 and had more than 10,000 prisoners by 1934.

All political parties other than the Nazi Party were outlawed in 1934.

Hitler had complete control of the press by 1934.

Today's America is not Nazi Germany, not even the Nazi Germany of 1934, well before Hitler committed the more-well-known atrocities that would follow.

[CatWoman]

184. which supports my view -- there HAD to be a starting point, didn't it?

I see you're tired of arguing with the posters up top and now want a piece of me.

I don't recall saying that today is Nazi Germany. I do recall saying that we are on our way. Or something along that line of reasoning.

I'm going to watch MST3K.

Sing along with me!!!!!!

Mike: "In the not too distant future
somewhere in time and space
Mike Nelson and his robot pals
are caught in a nasty place
They have to survive the wrath of Pearl
just an evil gal who wants to rule the world
From her castle below, she sets her sights above
Just to torture all the captives
on the Satellite of Love
(shouted) GET ME DOWN!!!

Mary Jo: I'll send him cheesy movies,
The worst I can find (la-la-la).
He'll have to sit and watch them all,
And I'll monitor his mind (la-la-la).

Mike: Now keep in mind Mike can't control
Where the movies begin or end (la-la-la)
He'll try to keep his sanity
With the help of his robot friends.

Robot Roll Call:

Cambot! (You're on!)
Gypsy! (Oh, my stars!)
Tom Servo! (Check me out!)
Croooow! (I'm different!)

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
and other science facts (la-la-la),
Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show,
I should really just relax..."
for Mystery Science Theater 3000!"

[TwilightZone]

192. What you said...

is that, as a liberal, you think that you can relate to how Jews felt in pre-WWII Germany.

Well, things were pretty damn bad for Jews in pre-war Germany, regardless of whether it was 1933 or 1938. In my opinion, your statement equating how you feel in our current society to what life was like for Jews in pre-war Germany is misguided and misplaced.

Personally, no matter how bad things are here, there is no way that I would ever claim to relate to what Jews went through in pre-WWII Germany. There is not a shred of similarity.

You may feel otherwise. If so, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean that I have to share it or agree with it.

Have fun with MST3K. :)

[CatWoman]

197. and In my opinion

Crow T. Robot makes more sense than you do.

I don't care what you could ever claim to, or relate you.

That's not my business. I could give a flying fuck.

[TwilightZone]

207. Well, ignorance is bliss.

Your life in today's America is nothing like Jewish life in pre-war Germany, nor is it likely to ever be. Be thankful.

[CatWoman]

209. funny -- I was thinking the exact same thing about you

"Well, ignorance is bliss."

[MADem]

254. Jewish life was comfortable in pre-war Germany

...for quite a while. The Jewish community was vibrant, cultured, aware, educated, well-off, living large, and assimilated. They all thought that Hitler would have his day, and be replaced by someone more moderate. That things would get better...that this, too, shall pass.

[matcom]

76. but Midori! Tattoos are in fashion!

[CatWoman]

85. LOLOLOL

:hi:

:loveya:

[matcom]

93. get the back to thy LOUNGE wherest thou BELONG!

:D

[CatWoman]

103. hell no!!!!!

I won't let the "intellectually challenged" run me away!!!!

:D

[Chicago Democrat]

96. As a faggot, I've felt that way for years!

I now feel like a heard of Wilderbeasts; time to jump over the crocodiles!

[hiphopnation]

124. And so...

what are you doing about it?

[CatWoman]

140. boning up on my "Woody Allen" trivia

:eyes:

[hiphopnation]

176. ...

:hi:

[LiberalEconomist]

132. So this is the problem with the American educational system!!

Yeah, they teach the children how to sound out the words but they don't teach the children comprehension. The focal point of this thread is "pre-WWII." So any talk about concentration camps and six-million dead, has nothing to do with this topic. Prior to the horrors that commenced during the "Final Solution," Jews, along with every other targeted group, felt that there is no way this madness could go further. No one had any idea, PRE-WORLD WAR II, of what would transpire. In short, Catwoman's post is quite relevant.

[ScreamingMeemie]

136. Bingo!! And well said LE!

And we can choose to be like the average German of that time, or we can do something now. :hi:

[lastliberalintexas]

137. Very succintly stated

And wasn't it Hitler who said that it was easier to govern an uneducated populace? I guess that's one more comparison I can't make! :-)

I think I'll read "It can't Happen Here" again over the holiday.

[CatWoman]

165. thank you. thank you. thank you.

some people on this thread are deliberately distorting my comments and purpose.

I'll be damned if I'm going to feel bad because of their stupidity and short sightedness.

Thanks again.

[MattWinMO]

208. circular logic

You're basically saying what right-wing Christians are constantly saying. You want to break the persecution of Jews by Nazis down into seperate cycles so you can claim to be persecuted like them.

You can't compare liberals to Jews in Nazi Germany and expect us to conveniently leave out the part where they were put in concentration camps and murdered.

Any group can logically say at some point in the future they could be rounded up and murdered. The point is you cannot compare your experience to Jews' experience in Nazi Germany when 1.you weren't there 2.you're asking us to assume we don't know the eventual outcome

[LibertyorDeath]

142. Some Can See

By Glen Yeadon

Numerous writers have compared the Bush tactics with those used by Hitler, while others have documented the connection between Prescott Bush and the Nazis. However, there is much more to what has lead the Bush regime to transform the United Stated into a fascist police state. Few people are aware that it is the Republican Party which paid for Nazi broadcasts in the 1930s or that the GOP employed Nazis in election campaigns. Fewer are aware that Herbert Hoover conspired with top Nazi officials in Berlin to unseat Roosevelt in the 1940 election. Others have forgotten that George Bush senior as chairman of the Republican Party set up the ethnic heritage groups of the party as havens for former Nazis or that he employed known Nazi war criminals on his campaign staff.
Moreover, as the New York Republican convention nears convening, it is increasingly obvious that protestors will be dealt with brutally. New weapons such as a sound blaster developed for the military are already in place in New York blurring the lines between the military and civilian affairs. Over fifty protestors are being tightly watch and tailed, their only crime is their opposition to Bush. The Republican governor has suggested that free speech is not a right but a privilege that can be revoke. Additionally there is a massive operation going on in Florida and other states to deny Blacks their right to vote. Finally the Bush administration is using terror alerts to frighten voters and to condition them to the possibility of a canceled election. These and similar tactics are no different than the tactics Hitler's brown shirts employed.

The fascist philosophy underlying the present Bush administration. (See accompanying diagram.) http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushadmin.html

There are numerous connections between the Bush family and the Nazis. Moreover, the philosophy of the neocons within the Bush administration has already been connected with fascism. However, no article has attempted to present an overview of the fascist connections within the Bush administration. This article will begin to outline the fascist connections between the present Bush administration and the Nazis, using a two-prong approach. The philosophical roots of Bush and the neocons can be traced back to one of America's notorious fascist.

Several authors have already noted the link between senior members of the Bush administration and the fascist Leo Strauss. However, exploring further the philosophical roots of Bush administration, we see that this connection leads back to the robber barons and the empire of J.P Morgan. Due to the natural congeniality between the robber barons and the corporate state of fascism, most of America's leading industrialists became America's leading supporters of fascism. They were responsible for bringing Hitler to power and for building Hitler's war machine.

More....


http://colombia.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/15930.php

[PROGRESSIVE1]

144. Actually, Muslims are going to face such Nazi style attacks....

now that the Un-American Nazi Party has taken over.

[Q]

151. It seems that the persecuted can always see what's coming...

...before the rest of the population.

Please note that Bush* and his fanatical followers don't rant against 'sin' in general...they have outright stated their and this country's enemies are the LIBERALS.

The detractors don't see your point because they either don't want to...or they essentially agree that the persecution is not a problem for them. Their attempt to hijack this thread by bringing up the holocaust is telling in that they can't seem to separate what came before with the end results.

The point is that you can have a fascist, totalitarian state without the deaths of millions.

[MattWinMO]

195. get real...

I just hate seeing unpersecuted people rave about how horribly persecuted they are and compare themselves to groups like Jews in Nazi Germany.

How are liberals being persecuted to the point Jews were? Don't give me that crap about needing to open my eyes to see it.

If you're going to do something as extreme as comparing yourself to Jews murdered by the millions you best be prepared with examples.

[ibegurpard]

201. You're arguing against a point that no one is making.

Whether it's deliberate or you just aren't hearing what people are saying is what I want to know.
No one is saying that RIGHT NOW anyone's situation in the United States is comparable to the Jews in the later stages of Nazi Power. What they ARE saying is that there are parallels with the Nazi rise to power and the current radical right power grab going on here. What Catwoman is saying is she thinks she can empathize with someone like a Jew at the beginning of the Nazis' rise to power...watching it happen and feeling powerless to do anything about it. I doubt if even the Jews imagined what the Nazis had in store for them when they first came to power.

[CatWoman]

212. I was about to address the poster's "generous misrepresentations"

and then I came upon your post.

thanks.

But I have a feeling that the poster is determined to see things his way.

[MattWinMO]

213. the logic is silly as I've pointed out in another post....

Any group can logically be compared to Jews watching Nazis come to power.

You could've said conservatives watching Clinton rise to power could be compared to Jews watching the Nazis rise to power(many did say that).

[CatWoman]

215. I just KNEW you wouldn't disappoint!!!

[MattWinMO]

217. you've been spending too much time...

Alone with your cats.

[CatWoman]

218. and you've been spending too much time in your ivory tower

every think about painting it another color?

[MattWinMO]

220. doesn't even make sense

Spending too much time in my ivory tower because I don't see this supposed "persecution" of liberals like myself you have yet to offer proof of?

[CatWoman]

223. Now you've got it!!!!! your drivel

"doesn't even make sense"

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

229. just graduated third grade, eh?

my granddaughter has better comebacks than that.

[TwilightZone]

227. Who needs proof?

When one can just berate and name-call?

Seriously, though, I agree with your other posts - I don't see how anyone could compare the "persecution" of liberals in today's America to what Jews faced in pre-war Germany. It would seem obvious that there is no comparison, but apparently, others somehow make one.

[ibegurpard]

221. So you agree that you've been misrepresenting what people are saying?

Now maybe we can get somewhere.

[MattWinMO]

222. no....

She specifically chose to compare herself to people eventually murdered by the millions.

[CatWoman]

225. well, would it have been more appropriate if I had used blacks?

I think not.

Blacks were brought over and enslaved into the hell hole that became America.

But that wasn't my point.

[ibegurpard]

228. She didn't say:

"I'm beginning to understand how the Jews in the concentration camps felt."
She said: "I'm beginning to understand how the Jews in pre-WWII Germany felt."
Now, if you want to point out that concentration camps and genocide started before the advent of WWII, then your point might be valid but as it stands, it's just a way to try to redirect the topic towards the comparison that has you outraged that no one is making.

[MattWinMO]

237. As I said

She could've picked other comparisons but chose a people that brings up a certain image, which is the Holocaust.

[ibegurpard]

246. Analysis of my conversation with you:

Catwoman: red vs. red
you: how dare you compare red vs. blue
me: she didn't compare red vs. blue...she compared red vs. red
you: it's OUTRAGEOUS that she would compare red vs. blue

As you might surmise, I have nothing more to say to you.

[CatWoman]

248. scary, isn't it?

[CatWoman]

224. he also just agreed with me that his lunacy

doesn't make sense.

Oh, happy, happy day!!!

[MattWinMO]

231. wow...

You're like a child who looks at his parents like they're nuts when they tell him there's no Santa Claus.

[CatWoman]

233. I know I am, but what are You????

don't try to turn your crap around on me.

You jumped into this thread, head first, making as much sense as running down the street buck naked at three a.m. during a thunderstorm.

I was just supplying more lunacy for the lunacy.

I'm really alarmed at the comprehension levels around here.

[MattWinMO]

240. you purposely chose Jews in Nazi Germany

As an example because you knew it'd strike a chord, which is pretty pathetic.

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MattWinMO]

242. doesn't change the fact...

You need to attach Jews in Nazi Germany to a thread just so people pay attention to you.

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MattWinMO]

247. here comes the f word..

Saying fuck makes your points more valid I guess.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

259. I chose Jews in Germany because there is, to me, a distinct parallel

and that is the ONLY reason I chose that subject matter.

Period.

If you know something else inside me that I don't know, I wish you'd let me in on it.

[CatWoman]

260. I wasn't aware that I was so "needy"

as a matter of fact, I just recently started posting again on DU, as the election really knocked me for a loop.

I braved LBN after much soul searching, and gathered the strenght to start posting in this forum again.

You need to be careful with your assumptions and generalizations.

You really, really do.

[TwilightZone]

264. "You need to be careful with your assumptions and generalizations."

I'd say the same is true of you.

Too funny....

[CatWoman]

271. 1. I wasn't aware that I was talking to you.

2. Ironic isn't it? You're another "I know what's in your head, and I know what's better for you to think, too" poster. Oh, the Irony.

3. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in the face.

4. Why do you keep running to say something stupid to me after being run off by others? I guess we all have our ways of saving face.

[Q]

266. You and a few others insist on making this about 'jews being murdered'...

...when clearing the original thread description didn't mention anything about that.

It's quite disturbing to see so many intentionally mischaracterize a thread in order to disrupt the flow of conversation. No one has even implied what you have intimated.

Try again. Read the thread description and stop taking it out of context.

[ChiciB1]

153. Quit Being So Literal!

It was only a COMPARISON!! I'm with CatWoman!

We are being HAD and are sitting around like "Dead Ducks!" I want a Call To Action... PROTEST! And not on Inauguration Day! I keep posting this, but get no response about it.

BTW, I posted on the Thread where Kerry called the supporters. The people there are Super Nice, and very comforting. They replied with a lot of compassion because I stated I wasn't celebrating Thanksgiving because our family didn't feel very "thankful!" I live in Florida and Katherine Harris is my representative. I worked so hard to get Kerry/Edwards elected, but ALAS... here we sit!!

I've also posted that comment far too many times too! Florida has just rolled up and played DEAD! Bev with Balck Box is my only glimmer of light, but it still won't change anything!

NOW POWELL, the Benedict Arnold is telling the Ukraine their election sucks!! Oh what a KICK!

[rasputin1952]

155. Let me toss out some historical perspectives here, strictly as a...

lover of history, and as a member of DU.

In post Great War Germany, the Treaty of Versailles was a disaster, and broke the back of a war torn Germany. It was prime ground to sow the seeds of totalitarian gov't. There were no less that 25 factious groups vying for power, and all of them were waiting just waiting for the chance to pounce. Hitler' National Socialist Workers Party made all of the right moves and seized power, legitimately when Hindenburg died, much to their chagrin of the High and Middle classes.

OK...we all know what happen on 1 Sept 39, when Poland was invaded by Germany initiating WWII. But what most people don't realize, is that the Concentration Camps began against the mentally defective, retarded, physically defective and handicapped in 1932. They were herded into camps so they would not be seen by the "normal" populace. Once it was an established practice, that people would be "taken care of" out of site, usually gassed by carbon monoxide from running vehicles. It became easy to round up others and dispose of them. Next came those that were considered a "threat" to Hitler an his minions, these were the intelligentsia, professors, doctors, men and women of letters, etc. Some were Nazified and allowed to go their ways, later recaptured and disposed of once their purpose as red herrings was carried out.

When Ernst Rohm was disposed of on the "Night of the Long Knives" Hitler had total control. It was incremental, and as each step was taken, a challenge would have brought his plans crashing down. Even Hitler admitted this many times, but no one challenged him, he had free reign. People in his own nation, and other nations, allowed him to get away with these atrocities, and no one hollered, until it was too late.

We are at a crossroads right now. We here at DU are not allowing bush and his minions to take complete control. We are fighting him, as are many other groups. All of us combined, can dull the edge of this knife aimed at the heart of this nation. We have to, the very soul of this country is at stake. the Constitution is being shredded before our eyes, the Bill of rights, (except for the Second Amendment), is a shambles, and the American People, regardless of the color of their political backgrounds are being played like fiddle.

I see People of Color being the "New Jew". I am a straight Caucasian male, but I will fight for people of color to be on the same plane I am on; just as I would have fought for the Jew or the Gypsy or the Homosexual, or the Intelligentsia, or anyone else being beaten down by a totalitarian gov't or another group intolerant people then, as I will fight for rights today in any legal and ethical way I can. I do not believe violence is the answer, because violence only moves to more violence. Truth, and the destruction of ignorance is the only way we will finally end this horror, and I am dedicated to both.

So...remember, in Hitler's Germany, just as in bush's US, it had to be divided, a common enemy had to be found and trumped up, and ignorance, liberally spiced with ignorance had to be the catalyst to ignite a war that cost almost 30 million lives around the globe; and that is a conservative estimate. The mind boggles at that number.


I realize this is just a short synopsis of events leading to an extremely complicate set of circumstances and issues that brought Hiter,(as well as Mussolini, Hirohito/Tojo) onto the World Stage, but in essence, what got them there cannot be placed in the confines of this thread...:)

[CatWoman]

170. Have I told you lately that I love you?

:hi:

:loveya:

[MattWinMO]

167. It's not as comparable to Nazi Germany but to.....

Russia now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

177. I Have A Question

Jews were a more or less readily identifiable group in Germany.


How is Bush going to ferret out the liberals...


Democrats are still more than half the country...

[CatWoman]

181. That's a good question

I would think with all the tools at their disposal to spy on people and to poke their noses into our computers et al, identifying liberals wouldn't be that hard.

[MattWinMO]

186. It looks weird when white people

Tell minorities how bad they have it in the U.S. I wouldn't call minorities the "new Jews."

Most Jews in Nazi Germany were not blue collar or on the lower end of the social scale before Nazis came to power.

The most damning thing about the Holocaust was that in Europe Jews had professional careers(bankers, doctors, etc.) who had prominence in their societies. Eventually through populist fervor they were viewed as some alien elite controling the country.

The Nazis rose to power by playing into the fears of a Jewish elite controling everything.

The danger wasn't the powerful versus the powerless but assumed powerless people(Aryan Germans) versus people who they felt were the powerful controling their lives.

[genieroze]

203. Bush was telling people that Saddam had WMD's to use aginst us.

That the Arabs are out to get us, that we need a crusade against them. Whose next, Iran, Jordan, maybe even the Saudis? The Arabs do have power, they have oil, black gold. They have us, excuse the pun, over a barrel. Therefore get rid of them. Isn't that what Hitler did, got rid of the people with money and power, and steal it from them. The Nazi's robbed the Jews and killed them under false accusations that they were a threat to Germany.

[CatWoman]

205. excellent, excellent points

[genieroze]

253. You are right they are going after the liberals

anyone who listens to Lush Limpballs can see it. He will just cast us as a lunatic fringe. Heck they are going to start giving mandatory mental health screenings to people. Maybe they will say we are all nuts and drug us into submission. Maybe they will label us insurgents against the homeland and ship us off to Guantanamo. They fear us because we won't play. We don't like fascism. We want to help people that can't help themselves, and help people who are discriminated against and unlike them we respect the Constitution.

[MattWinMO]

210. As much as I dislike Bush..

He certainly never said all Arabs were the enemy. The war on terrorism is certainly not about Christian vs. Muslim.

[CatWoman]

211. damn. I guess he had them mixed up when he bombed Iraq.

damn those brown people for all looking alike.

[MattWinMO]

216. we're trying to massacre every Muslim

With the war on terror? Funny we haven't nuked Indonesia yet.

[CatWoman]

236. no, you're just trying to massacre logic

[genieroze]

257. What did Bush say? A Crusade?

Iraq, now Iran. Seems like a war against Arabs to me. Then again they harassed Cat Stevens so maybe it's a religious war against Muslims humm?
Nah. Actually I think it's really a big oil grab and most of the oil is in Arab countries. The fact remains that many Iraqi Arabs are dying because of us, Arabs that had nothing to do with 9/11. I think Bush is a faux Christian and he's playing the fundies for fools. I'm a Christian, I not a stupid one. I could see through his lies and deception. It's a huge power grab.

[bobbyboucher]

234. Oh for chrissakes,

do you even realize that we can see right through you?

[CatWoman]

238. and it AIN'T a pretty sight!!

[Q]

269. Look...you're obviously just trying to disrupt...

...so why don't you give up while you're behind?

[LibertyorDeath]

188. The connections

[MattWinMO]

189. No group in America is comparable to Jews in Nazi

Germany.

Is there any group who is having every one of its members put in prison camps and then murdered by the government?

Where are liberals being rounded up for no reason other than being liberal?

[CatWoman]

193. I'd like to know that too, as you're the first to infer that

Where are liberals being rounded up for no reason other than being liberal?

[Ripley]

194. Way to go Cat! You started a flame war!

:hi:

I understand exactly where you're coming from. I see it too. It's too bad some folks have "pet horrors" that can never be topped. I understood your points about the early stages of fascism we are experiencing. And it is indeed not diminishing of the Holocaust. Your post is a good reminder to those, especially Jews, that yes, it could happen again but the victims could well be non-Jews. How hard is that to believe?

Happy Thanksgiving gal!

[CatWoman]

198. LOL, Ripley

it started out innocently enough!!! :hi:

however, if you will note, there are about four posters who, I guess, are not being "all that they can be", and they want to blame me and ridicule my opinions for that.

Oh well..............

Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!

[Niche]

230. 911=German Parliment Burned down/20% votes for National Socialist...

in Germany = 20% Christian Right. Homeland Security (US) = Fatherland (Nazi). The German constitution was brought down first by giving all power to their President and taking away from Parliment and the people. Gave Hitler Chancellership so thay could "keep and eye on him". Also, the National Socialists wooed their enemy's with kindness (Republican's woo the Dems in office). It did not happen over night the people voted away their rights. Sound familiar? The list is endless... Attack on Austria, Poland, etc. It's these his thugs play book! Hopefully we learn from hisory and not repeat it. Afraid we are already gone. All the people had to do was stand up to it. There was a moment early on when they could and they missed the opportunity. Then the constitution was rewritten and they could not stop it. HELLO!

[MattWinMO]

244. you really butchered history

The Nazis didn't win 20% of seats in the Reichstag after it burnt but already had the seats.

[bobbyboucher]

249. Well, if you only had any cred,

somebody might believe what you are saying without linked verification from a credible source.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

265. but

yes but after:

reichstagsbrand --> ermächtigungsgesetz

after

9/11 --> Patriot Act

[calimary]

255. I'm starting to understand how the Israelis feel about Arab hardliners -

you know, the ones who are often quoted as saying they want to drive Israel into the sea and obliterate them from the face of the earth? Sort of how the hard "right" and the grover norquists and richard vigueries and ralph reeds - and all the others who'd really, deep down in their stone-of-stones (I doubt these folks even have hearts), would like to drive liberals and Democrats into oblivion. Some of these dears have indicated that the world would be so much better without any liberals in it.

[designforce]

262. It is bad if you are a Civil Serveant, that's for sure

I am a federal employee, and I can tell you that the zealots are out in full force.

My boss constantly adds religion to his briefings, meetings, etc.

Some of our senior managers act more like missionaries rather than public serveants. They see their role when they go abroad not to do the peoples work, but to spread the WORD.

It is getting pretty scary where I am at, and I am in a DOD agency.

Anyone else experiencing this?

[CatWoman]

267. I'm a civil servant as well

and tho I don't get the "old time religion" from the managers, I sure hear it a lot from staff.

I'm with Health and Human Services.

[ohioan]

268. I agree that your comparison is outrageous

We are a political faction out of favor, NOT a race of people targeted for or in any danger of genocide.

Making such a comparison insults victims of the Holocaust, diminishes their suffering (I bet that any one of them would have given ANYTHING to simply have their party lose an election) and smacks of self-involved, baseless victimhood.

Get over yourself.

[CatWoman]

275. Oh my!!!! I've just developed the vapors

and what is it that I need to "get over"?

You need to re-read my post.

No ONCE did I:

- infer and try to diminishes anyone's suffering

- engage in baseless victimhood.

You're the one who needs to "get over ones self"

[Moderator]

276. Locking......

This has turned to flamebait with lots
of personal attacks and insults.


Thanks for understanding.


DU Moderator