An explanation of a vote for Kerry AWESOME LETTER!

[cidliz2004]

Subject: A special letter from a NEW YORKER

Subj: Fwd: An explanation of a vote for Kerry

This letter that was written by a fellow NY'er is so close to my feelings that I
thought I'd share it with you guys.
Anna

======================================

I am writing this letter to the people in the red states in the middle

of the country -- the people who voted for George W. Bush. I am writing this
letter because I don't think we know each other.

So I'll make an introduction. I am a New Yorker who voted for John Kerry. I used
to live in California, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. I
used to live in Washington, DC, and if I still lived there, I would vote for
Kerry. Kerry won in all three of those regions.

Maybe you want to know more about me. Or maybe not; maybe you think you know me
already. You think I am some anti-American anarchist because I dislike George W.
Bush. You think that I am immoral and anti-family, because I support women's
reproductive freedom and gay rights. You think that I am dangerous, and even
evil, because I do not abide by your religious beliefs.

Maybe you are content to think that, to write me off as a “liberal” - - the
dreaded “L” word - - and rejoice that your candidate has triumphed over evil,
immoral, anti-American, anti-family people like me. But maybe you are still
curious. So here goes: this is who I am.

I am a New Yorker. I was here, in my apartment downtown, on September 11th. I
watched the Towers burn from the roof of my building. I went inside so that I
couldn't see them when they fell. I had friends who were inside. I have a friend
who still has nightmares about watching people jump and fall from the Towers. He
will never be the same. How many people like him do you know? People that can't
sit in a restaurant without plotting an escape route, in case it blows up?

I am a worker. I work across the street from the Citigroup Center, which the
government told us is a “target” of terrorism. Later, we found out they were
relaying very old information, but it was already too late. They had given me
bad dreams again. The subway stop near my office was crowded with bomb-sniffing
dogs, policemen in heavy protective gear, soldiers. Now, every time I enter or
exit my office, all of my possessions are X-rayed to make sure I don't have any
weapons. How often are you stopped by a soldier with a bomb-sniffing dog outside
your office?

I am a neighbor. I have a neighbor who is a 9/11 widow. She has two children. My
husband does odd jobs for her now, like building bookshelves. Things her husband
should do. He uses her husband's tools, and the two little girls tell him,
“Those are our daddy's tools.” How many 9/11 widows and orphans do you know? How
often do you fill in for their dead loved ones?

I am a taxpayer. I worked my butt off to get where I did, and so did my parents.
My parents saved and borrowed and sent me to college. I worked my way through
graduate school. I won a full tuition scholarship to law school. All for the
privilege of working 2,600 hours last year. That works out to a 50 hour week,
every week, without any vacation days at all. I get to work by 9 am and rarely
leave before 9 p.m. I eat dinner at my office much more often than I eat dinner
at home. My husband and I paid over $70,000 in federal income tax last year. At
some point in the future, we will have to pay much more - - once this country
faces its deficit and the impossible burden of Social Security. In fact, the
areas of the country that supported Kerry - - New York, California, Illinois,
Massachusetts - - they are the financial centers of the nation. They are the tax
base of this country. How much did you pay, Kansas? How much did you contribute
to this government you support, Alabama? How much of this war in Iraq did you
pay for?

I am a liberal. The funny part is, liberals have this reputation for living in
Never-Neverland, being idealists, not being sensible. But let me tell you how I
see the world: I see America as one nation in a world of nations. Therefore, I
think we should try to get along with other nations. I see that gay people
exist. Therefore, I think they should be allowed to exist, and be treated the
same as other people. I see ways in which women are not allowed to control their
own bodies. Therefore, I think we should give women more control over their
bodies. I see that people have awful diseases.

Therefore, I think we should enable scientists to try to cure them. I see that
we have a Constitution. Therefore, I think it should be upheld. I see that there
were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Therefore, I think that Iraq was not an imminent danger to me. It seems so
pragmatic to me. How do you see the world? Do you really think voting against
gay marriage will keep people from being gay? Would you really prefer that
people continue to die from Parkinson's disease? Do you really not care about
the Constitutional rights of political detainees? Would you really have
supported the war if you knew the truth, or would you have wanted to spend more
of our money on health care, job training, terrorism preparedness?

I am an American. I have an American flag flying outside my home. I love my home
more than anything. I love that I grew up right outside New York City. I first
went to the Statue of Liberty with my 5th grade class, and my mom and dad took
me to the Empire State Building when I was 8. I love taking the subway to Yankee
Stadium. I loved living in Washington DC and going on dates to the Lincoln
Memorial. It is because I love this country so much that I argue with my
political opponents as much I do.

I am not safe. I never feel safe. My in-laws live in a small town in Ohio, and
that town has received more federal funding, per capita, for terrorism
preparedness than New York City has. I take subways and buses every day. I work
in a skyscraper across the street from a “target.” I have emergency supplies and
a spare pair of sneakers in my desk, in case something happens while I'm at
work. Do you? How many times a month do you worry that your subway is going to
blow up? When you hear sirens on the street, do you run to the window to make
sure everything is okay? When you hear an airplane, do you flinch? Do you dread
beautiful, blue-skied September days? I don't know a single New Yorker who
doesn't spend the month of September on tip-toes, superstitiously praying for
rain so we don't have to relive that beautiful, blue-skied day.

I am lonely. I feel that we, as a nation, have alienated all our friends and
further provoked our enemies. I feel unprotected. Most of all I feel alienated
from my fellow citizens, because I don't understand what you are thinking. You
voted for a man who started a war in Iraq for no reason, against the wishes of
the entire world. You voted for a man whose lack of foresight and inability to
plan has led to massive insurgencies in Iraq, where weapons are disappearing
into the hands of terrorists. You voted for a man who let Osama Bin Laden escape
into the hills of Afghanistan so that he could start that war in Iraq. You voted
for a man who doesn't want to let people love who they want to love; doesn't
want to let doctors cure their patients; doesn't want to let women rule their
destinies. I don't understand why you voted for this man. For me, it is not
enough that he is personable; it is not enough that he seems like one of the
guys. Why did you vote for him? Why did you elect a man that lied to us in order
to persuade us to go to war? (Ten years ago you were incensed when our president
lied about his sex life; you thought it was an impeachable offense.) Why did you
elect a leader who thinks that strength cannot include diplomacy or
international cooperation? Why did you elect a man who did nothing except run
away and hide on September 11?

Most of all, I am terrified. I mean daily, I am afraid that I will not survive
this. I am afraid that I will lose my husband, that I will never have children,
that I will never grow old and watch the sunset in a backyard of my own. I am
afraid that my career -- which should end with a triumphant and good-natured
roast at a retirement party in 2035 -- will be cut short by an attack on me and
my colleagues, as we sit sending emails and making phone calls one ordinary
afternoon. Is your life at stake? Are you terrified?

I don't think you are. I don't think you realize what you have done. And if
anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you. I wanted you to know
that.

[eddiebrowns]

1. Wow

what an awesome letter

[Straight Shooter]

2. Chills run up and down my spine.

My hands are shaking as the enormity of her words sink in. The voice of a real American has spoken her heart and her mind.

"I don't think you realize what you have done."

edit: nominated for home page

[mstrsplinter326]

3. wow nt

[okieinpain]

4. WOW

[Winamericaback]

5. Crying

I'm sitting here crying

Wow, that was an amazing letter.

Thank you for sharing.

[LittleClarkie]

60. I'm at work

so I'm trying not to. It ain't easy.

[fob]

6. Awesome letter but that closing paragraph is a, uh, I guess since I can't

think of words to describe it it must be "speechlessmaking".

edit: also nominating...

[treading_water]

7. Nominated.

Incredible. I have tears running down my face.

[Cornus]

8. Incredible letter

I will share this with others...it's exactly how I feel too.

[sushi]

9. What a wonderful letter

I especially love "I see America as one nation in a world of nations. Therefore I think we should try to get along with other nations." And also that gays should be treated the same as other people, and that women should have control over their bodies. Well, I love the whole letter. The question is will the people in the red states get to read it?

[cidliz2004]

21. If we can keep it alive here maybe it will spread far and beyond

our group of great thinkers. Any ideas???? I am leaving for work, so I cannot keep it alive...any experienced DU'rs out there with any ideas???

[vickie]

81. This letter is really making the rounds today. An attorney friend

of mine sent it me and she received it from another friend. This should be our new mantra - we Dems in the mighty blue states!

[jwirr]

158. During the campaign many made pamphlets to

be laid around in various public places for people to pick up.

[Maraya1969]

177. EMAILS

Send it around to everyone you can. And if you ever get one of those stupid emails with a prayer and an ending that tells you to pass it on because:

"Jesus said, if you are ashamed of me then I will be ashamed of you before the Father" (something like that)


SAVE those emails in the forwards. Now all I have to do it press each key on my keyboard and tons of emails come up. Most of whom I don't know.

That email with the fake Koran passage about the Eagle destroying a bad nation, (Iraq) was started by a Sister Bernadette from a catholic high school in Matawan NJ. I know that school and I looked it up and she really is a Nun there. I sent her a note and told her she should be ashamed of sending false emails around. Now I send her every Democratic thing I can!

[MaraJade]

170. I don't think that the people in the red states. . .

give a rat's ass. Their primary thoughts right now are about how
they are going to "make them (read--US) pay," how we're now going
to be "stopped."

Funny this. . .the very same people who yelled and screamed about
liberal "paternalism" advocate a patriarchial society where men run
everything (and not just any men, mind you. . .), where their sort of
morality is legislated, where the government very intrusively controls people's lives, but does nothing whatsoever to save people's
lives or make those same lives better or more bearable. To these
narrow-minded bigots, it is far more important that people of the same gender be stopped from loving each other than it is for our children to have clean air and water, or for our children to live free of the spectre of warfare. These people believe that in stopping women from controlling their own bodies, they are performing a service to God, putting women "back in their place," and they believe that this is far more important than making sure that those same women even get healthcare or have viable employment which would enable them to provide for the children they would be forced to have.

Even if this magnificent letter were shoved under their noses, they
simply would not care. The only thing they care about is interfering
with the rest of us, stopping us from living our lives in freedom
and peace, and forcing the other people on this planet to their knees before the great bully in the White House. Kicking others is
how these small-minded people feel good about themselves. Steeped in selfishness, hypocrisy and self-righteous "holier than thou-ness," they remind me of the Pharisees condemned by
Jesus Christ himself, who said that they "bind up heavy burdens on the backs of men, but are unwilling to even lift a little finger
to help them."

I think that the letter should be given the widest possible distribution, but I have absolutely no hope that the people in the
red states will give a tinker's damn.

[silverweb]

180. Beautifully said.

I fear you are absolutely right that the people who need to receive this message the most just don't care. However, I've sent it out to friend and foe alike, anyway.

Maybe... just maybe... it will plant a seed in the back of one person's mind that will flower at some future time.

[pacalo]

10. I'd like to keep this letter. All the important points were made &

expressed perfectly. Was this a letter you received personally or did you find it online?

[cidliz2004]

20. I received this letter by e-mail, 2nd hand.

I was so inspired and moved by it, that I had to share it with all of you.

[pacalo]

32. Thanks for sharing it. I don't think it could have been written better.:)

[49 percenter]

39. It appears to have been written by a 'Susan Schroeder'

www.opednews.com

[shuffnew]

100. yes, it appears so...

On their homepage they stated the letter had been floating around the internet and they tracked down the author of the original email and got permission to print it.
http://www.opednews.com/schroeder_111204_red_states.htm

An awesome letter.

[LOCxHippy]

188. Thank you for the links!

I sent this along to quite a few people and posted on three other boards! That's how much I appreciated this woman's efforts to share her feelings with us.

She wrote a truly a remarkable letter. It was very easy to "feel" what she felt as she wrote those words. We can relate to her anger and sadness. I hope it purged any pent up emotions she may have had. I would feel so good getting all of that out!

I would like to hear from more of those who lived through that event than the general comments we hear periodically.I hope others will write and share their experiences.


:hippie:

[TexasProgresive]

102. Here's a direct link

http://www.opednews.com/schroeder_111204_red_states.htm

And this may be the woman herself-

http://www.wilmerhale.com/susan_schroeder

[cidliz2004]

103. Thanks so much for the information and the link

The letter that this woman wrote is phenomenal. I am really so glad that I now know who actually wrote it.

[newyawker99]

159. Hi 49 percenter!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[RaleighNCDem]

11. I just sent that to everyone in my address book. eom

:thumbsup:

[bush_is_wacko]

14. Me too...

I am hoping to wake up a few who will not admit they voted for greed, hypocrisy, criminal behavior, and total disregard for their fellow man! This letter is incredible!

[Mutley]

34. I don't live in New York...

but I feel exactly the same way.

I will show this letter to everyone I know.

[JaneDoughnut]

12. Right on the money

It kills me to have lost all respect for 59 million people, but I have. They don't realize what they've done.

[RetroLounge]

13. Wow...

Wow...

Intense.

RL

[angrydemocrat]

18. Excellent Letter

This letter says it all. It is sad and chilling but is is also so true. But I understand what she is saying because I get so angry to even see someone who voted for Bush much less have to speak to them. I try to avoid anyone that I know who voted for Bush because of all the anger and rage it brings out in me. All though I have had many encounters with these people and it ends up being such bitter ugly remarks that almost have come to blows a few times. Including some in my own family. I can't get over how stupid so many people could be. I don't know how to get over the anger to be honest with you I don't know that I can. It is best for me to avoid these people as if they are the enemy. Truth is if you come down to reality they are the enemy or they would have never done what they did.

[KyndCulture]

15. wow

Crying...

darnit, I didn't think I'd do that today.

Thanks ever so much for sharing this.

[Bridget Burke]

16. An awesome letter--but ...

Shouldn't it also be addressed to "Blue Staters" who voted for Bush? Because of the vagaries of the electoral college, their votes didn't count--in a way. But they're part of the purported "mandate."

And this Houstonian has never voted for a Republican--nor have many of my friends. Although I certainly did not witness 9/11 personally, we're not exactly safe down here. The latest Texas Monthly has an excellent article showing what might happen during an attack on the Port of Houston--accessed by a widened bayou winding through a vast array of petrochemical plants.

The writer gives us numerous details of her personal life but she looks at all Red Staters as identical. That is not the case.

[cidliz2004]

19. We can nit pick anything apart if that is our intention

but, if you look at the letter as a whole, you wouldn't worry about such things. The writer did an extraordinary job of revealing what so many of us feel. If the letter didn't cover enough bases for you than I'm sorry.

I appreciate what she wrote and believe that any "red" voter that lives in a "blue" state, would feel some guilt. She actually was there and she actually witnessed 9/11, we saw it on T.V. So I give her some room when it comes to how she and other N.Yorkers feel about terror.

[shuffnew]

108. I'm a Blue Stater in TEXAS (Pink State) too... (n/t)

And... you are right none of us are safe. The Bush regime has made everyone more unsafe and caused terrorism growth by the pre-emptive war on Iraq and letting Osama run amuck addressing our nation just prior to our 2004 Election (thank you brother Rove) and then lower the security level after the election.

Susan's letter is awesome and really brings truth home. Eventhough we don't live in NY, our hearts and tears were there on 9/11 and will always be there with them. One part of her letter that I certainly will never forget... where were our cowardly leaders on 9/11? Tony Blair addressed our nation, but OUR own leaders didn't for many many hours. I had respect for Tony on that day, but now realize he was just one of the Bush regime doing their job. Tony is in the same boat with the Bushies (but on that day, I did not know that).

How much more we have learned since that dreadful day...

[graywarrior]

17. The truth hurts

it hurts like hell.

[karlrschneider]

22. Muy excelente...

:kick:

[Sinti]

23. Beautiful n/t

[boi1946]

24. Speechless...crying...

Thank you for sharing this. Forwarding to friends.

[ronnykmarshall]

25. That needs to go to every newspaper

in EVERY red state!

[northamericancitizen]

27. kick

[pnutchuck]

26. I too had friends that died on 9/11

And I have sent this letter out to everyone I know and requested a rebuttal from my Repub friends, if they can come up with one. If they can find a legitimate reason, I promise to post it. However, I don't think there is anyone who can argue with this woman's words, they are profound and most of all true. I can't imagine what the rest of the country was thinking when they chose to vote for that man, only that zealots honestly feel that they are doing the right thing in their hearts.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[walldude]

63. Will refute all your arguements when I get home from work

for now maybe you can tell us how you know that life begins at conception. Did god tell you or did you read it in "his" book?

[merh]

109. I have often wondered, if life begins at conception, why do we

celebrate birthdays and not conception days? :shrug:

[Maraya1969]

178. Here is the type of rebuttal I get

TAKE ME OFF YOU LIST!

YOU ARE A PATHETIC LOSER

YOU ARE AN IDIOT

WHO ARE YOU?


I think maybe I should write back with that idea of yours.

"Please send me back a coherent letter with some valid points. "You are an idiot" seems like you have nothing of value to say."


BTW - Most of the people that were killed in the Twin Towers were from New York and New Jersey - overwhelming supporters of Kerry.

[sleepyhead]

28. Amazing.

Sending it out to everyone I know and bookmarking to reread later.

[ChiciB1]

29. TRULY INSPIRING!

I'm going to copy the letter and send it to everyone I know. And I know a LOT of people in Texas.

You see I lived in Killeen, TX (Ft.Hood) from 1956 too 1971. I graduated from Killeen High School in 1963 and still go back for class reunions! But most of my "old" classmates think I'm some kind of Communist! I've tried very hard not to get into it with them, but find it harder and harder each day. I could NEVER go back and live there again. Even though I do NOW live in Florida! I will take Florida over Texas anyday!

All you Texas Democrats, I mean you no malice! You must really be feeling some pain! I lived there when it was Democrat "friendly!"

[ExclamationPoint]

30. Amazing and true.

I do live in a blue state, and I can't beleive perfectly good people I know voted for Bush. It's almost as if they want to beleive that everything you mentioned in your letter somehow didn't happen. I will send this letter to every republican I know.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Chimpanzee]

35. Well...

Safe from an increasingly secularized society, but left with a completely destroyed nation and world (give it 6 months).

I hope when the shit hits the fan you will repost and let us know if you've changed your mind.

[Demrock6]

36. Well said DruMo.

[talk hard]

38. Blue State Voter Responds to Bush Voter

What is it about secularism that is so terrifying and unpalatable to you? The separation of church and state is and has always been a good idea. How would you feel if an offshoot of your church that you don't subscribe to decided to run the government and impose their narrow beliefs on you? They'd be christians but, for instance, snake-handling, speaking in tongues, book-burning christians. We must NEVER impose religious tenets on government. Our government exists to serve ALL Americans.

If you don't like something on TV, turn the channel or turn it off. You have the power to control your environment without controlling mine. Why do you think your beliefs are more important than mine?

You claim you have great concern about the secularism permeating government, yet are content with a president who caters to the wealthy, ignoring the poor in our country. You are content to have a president that lies to go to war, that outs a CIA agent out of revenge, that is pressing to destroy our environment all the while giving these actions such Orwellian names as "Clean Skies" or "Healthy Forests."

All this isn't' particularly christlike, now is it?

This is my country as much as it is yours. As a Blue State voter, I care about the poor and the environment. I care about the notion of going to war as a last resort. I care that we are murdering thousands of Iraqis all the while claiming we are freeing them. I care that our president is an embarrassment and loathed by the rest of the world. And last, but certainly not least, I care that this president attained the White House by fraud in 2000 and it appears this time by a Diebold coup d'etat.

I've had about enough of George W. Bush. As our country slips further in the abyss, I want you to look in the mirror and ask yourself what morality really means. As much as you look at me and feel I'm bereft of moral values, I see you, sir, as ignorant and short-sighted.

This is YOUR America, and I intend to organize and work to make it OUR America again.

[MaraJade]

174. Bravo!

Excellent response. I especially love the bit where you ask this person what makes them think their beliefs are better than anyone elses. This is the question we should keep on asking these people.
We should ask them this in every single public forum. We should
demand that they account for themselves. They should be pressed
to explain to the world why they think they know what is best for
us and for the world. They should be pinned down to give answers
as to why and how they feel their way of belief and governing will improve life and living for people on this planet.

I know they will not be able to answer.

Demanding this sort of accountability from them is the only way we
will be able to defeat them.

[zbdent]

33. You should send that to all the heavy red-state papers

Big and small.

Here's a good place to start looking.

http://ipl.si.umich.edu/div/news/

I know that a lot of other "evil-DUers" can provide more or maybe even more coherent lists, but it's a start.

[calimary]

82. What's sad, though, is the reaction from people at the gopusa site,

and the link therein to some other site where this letter was originally posted. It just proves what a disconnect there is in this country. This woman's heartfelt communique was literally laughed at, condemned, and shat upon.

[charley]

191. Where is that response?

I know this will just infuriate me, but I'm still curious...I looked on gopusa and didn't find the discussion of this letter. Would you happen to have a link? Thanks!!

[RubyCat]

37. You rule.

[Chalco]

40. My blue county

pays higher taxes which goes to red counties in my state to pay for their schools. My blue state pays higher taxes which goes to red states for their schools, roads, medicine, etc. I'm tired of it. No taxation without representation. If my blue daughter gets called to war by this man the red states put in office, I will leave this country to the red faced idiots.

[rfranklin]

61. "Welfare State" would describe the Red States...

They are a burden on the backs of the so-called Blue States. And voting Republican won't help. Since they've been in control the pork and subsidies have skyrocketed to the Red States. Everything Republicans accuse other of doing, they have done tenfold.

[Chalco]

73. It's called projection

when someone accuses someone else of doing something that they are actually doing themselves. The Repugs are great at that. Claiming Bill Clinton was immoral when so many of them had girlfriends on the side themselves. That's just one example.

As I see it if we live til we're 80 dimwit will have ruled this country for 10 percent of our lives. That's depressing.

[stevegrogan]

85. Not Really.

Most of the money generated in the Blue States comes from Wall Street and Silicon Valley. The Wall Street money is 70% Republican. Silicon Valley is about 50%. The headquarters happen to be in Blue States, but I would say the mentality is a reddish purple....

[cidliz2004]

76. Welcome to the DU!

[Chalco]

121. Thanks

Discovered DU recently. Been lurking. Glad to be here.

[newyawker99]

160. Hi Chalco!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[Mutley]

43. if this post is any sort of indication...

then the letter will have NO EFFECT on bush supporters...

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[dmac]

46. You listen to Rush

but fear for your life around democrats? sorry, but I am confused. We aren't the gun toting, anti-'anyone who's not like me is wrong' crowd. Sorry. Liberal isn't the bad word Rush makes it out to be and while some of the posts here may be brash and anti-conservative, we would find exactly the same thing on a conservative/republican blog. Heck, Conservative/Republican publishers already make a habit out of aggressive, anti-liberal articles (think Human Events, the Weekly Standard) - all the time. This is our place to vent but we are harmless and anti-violent, I can assure you.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[walldude]

52. Try visiting the freerepublic if you can stomache it

www.freerepublic.com

So it was a crack that Kerry made, I thought it was a comment that Gays don't "choose" their lifestyle.
Oh and as far as Mary Cheney choosing to be discreet, thats a crock, she has been very public in her coming out and her father brought up her sexuality in the VP debate. Also her mother wrote a book with a lesbian protagonist and she worked on her fathers campaign. Let me ask you something, did you call your buddy Rush and tell him how wrong he was when he called Chelsea Clinton the white house dog?

[Mutley]

59. what comments....

exactly lead you to believe that we are murderers?

[yankeedem]

47. No, sorry, we aren't interested in your vote

Don't let the door hit you where the lord spit you. Read the Constitution about "seperation of church and state" and try again when you wake up.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

98. You don't know anything about American History

it's obvious from your posts...

[The Doctor.]

114. I would suggest that perhaps...

The sentiments are anti- agressive religion. There are many Christian Sects right now that are actively pushing political agendas which embody their beliefs. This is tantamount to Muslims gaining enough political power to force one's wife to wear a burkha in public.

But because there are so many Christians in American society, you are not sensitive to the imposition of unwelcome strictures.

You have been 'desensitized' to agressive Christianity.

Do you think there are Muslims who are against fundamentalism?

There are.
That's why there are people who guard against state favoritism.
That's what the spirit of 'There shall be no law regarding the establishment of religion' means.

[Meme]

49. THIS is what made you fear for your life?

wow, exactly how scared would you be when you finally realize who really is the killer in this whole drama.

[walldude]

50. The fact that you listen to Rush shows

us that you have no place here. While we have no plans to "murder" you, we'd really like to have a place to go where like minded people can have a discussion without being called, unpatriotic, murderers, pro-terrorist, or whatever other names you have for people under the umbrella of the "L" word. Please enjoy your "southern gospel" life but keep it out of my religion, my doctors office, my bedroom and my childs school. You know we could care less what religion you are until you attempt to force your uptight morals upon us. Obviously you don't care much for rules(you signed up here knowing you weren't welcome)unless they support your ideology...

[demo dutch]

53. So this is the kind of paranoia that has been fed to you by your party

about Democrates? I mean the fact that you believe a nurse who is a DUer would kill you is quite disturbing! It is sad to conclude that it is exactly that kind of fear and paranoia that made people vote for a man like George W. Bush.
God gave you a brain to be an independent thinker, for God's sake use it!

[Nightwing]

54. Did you say Falwell???

If you are truly proud to have been a contributor to Jerry Falwell and carry a letter of "thanks" from him on your person, you need more help than Mike Tyson. I just cant understand why anyone would part with money to a supposed Christian man that stole everything from Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

[Firefly2004]

62. How Common Ground Could Be Found

Southern Gospel, if you're still around, here's the problem. If you want the kind of people who voted for Kerry to be nice, then you need to encourage the kind of people who voted for Bush to be nice to us. The game of cooperation only works when all parties cooperate. Otherwise, some people just make sacrifices while others take advantage of them. This is the problem in a nutshell. It is the problem at the core of most issues that face the human race in our time.

I was brought up in a Christian household in California, Alabama and Michigan. One of my brothers, who lives in Michigan, voted for Kerry. The other, who lives in Tennessee, voted for Bush. My husband, who read Rush Limabaugh's books in his late teens and early twenties, voted for Kerry, although he somewhat liked Bush in 2000. My husband's friend, who voted for Bush in 2000, voted for Kerry this year. My parents voted for Bush. My aunts voted for Bush. I hate nobody in my family just because they voted for Bush, but I was very saddened that they were fooled by a man whose policies I sincerely believe are ruining America.

You are a Christian. I no longer am. I have been an agnostic since the age of fifteen, and I have been practicing meditation for three years. Are we so different, just because of that, though? Are our goals so different? Do you want your children and grandchildren to grow up in a world where they can drink free and clean water and breath free and clean air and where wild animals exist outside of zoos? If you are like the majority of Americans who have been surveyed, you do want this. So do I. Do you want to be able to take care of yourself and your loved ones when you are ill or suffering from disease? Do you want to be able to make a living wage if you work hard and keep your skills up? I expect that, like the majority of Americans, you do want these things, along with me. I expect we share a lot of goals. Why can't people like us cooperate, to the benefit of the majority of us?

If you are really interested in finding common ground, you may be interested in reading a free ebook that has had a profound influence on me. It can be read by clicking here:
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/books/Stewart-EvArrow.pdf

Be brave. You came here. Now go a little bit farther and dare to discover how somebody like me really thinks. Read the book called Evolution's Arrow. The thesis of this book is that humanity will progress in the future if we can learn to cooperate with each other, and that the way to do this is to build systems that do not punish cooperators. Currently, I feel and many Kerry people feel that our systems punishes us for being nice. If you really want us to be nice, then help us build a society and culture in which we are not punished for it. The book Evolution's Arrow has a lot of ideas on how to accomplish this goal.

[dmac]

42. I saw this right after the election and my first thought was

if only it could and would be read by its intended audience. Maybe since it is still making the rounds, it may show up in some red state papers yet.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

115. Can that vote be audited?

If not, it can't be proven one way or another.

[yardwork]

45. That is beautiful.

Nominated for the front page and I'm going to clip it and send it to some other folks who might be interested.

[Cronus Protagonist]

55. Thanks! I gave it a permanent home on my web site

I also added some poignant graphics to make it more presentable.

http://cronus.com/newyorker/

Enjoy :)

[Stew225]

58. I am thankful that someone was able to

share my thoughts so eloquently.

[Cronus Protagonist]

65. You're welcome

The Cronus Connection is intended to keep gems like this letter from falling through the cracks.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[othermeans]

184. Just awesome!! nt

[Window]

57. Profound!

Thank you for sharing.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

64. As one who 'voted blue in a red state,' let's not forget there

are many like me.

[IDemo]

67. From a blue dot in red-state Idaho, agreed.

Even in states such as Idaho or Utah that delivered ~two-thirds of their votes to Bush, the true progressives in Red states shouldn't be dismissed by Blue-Staters.

[seaj11]

66. I know others have said this, but...Wow.

Awesome letter. I am proud to live in the same country as this woman. (I'm disappointed to see that a freeper infiltrated this thread. How pathetic.)

[HappyLibin2008]

69. Questions.....

Hi, I am new to this forum. What is a 'freeper'? Is that the person who had their post(s) removed? Why are posts removed? Should we be open to reply to posts that we don't agree with. That will only strengthen ones point.

[seaj11]

89. Yeah.

A Freeper is someone who posts at Free Republic, or anyone who supports far-right causes, Bush, Rush, etc. The reason those posts are removed is because this is our (liberals, Democrats) common room. For a freeper to be in here is like crashing a party. And Free Republic does the same. They ban people who show an opposing view.

[HappyLibin2008]

129. Thanks!

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. Happy Thanksgiving.

[newyawker99]

161. Hi HappyLibin2008!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[gristy]

68. This is a very good letter, but includes a media-induced fallacy

This:

You think I am some anti-American anarchist because I dislike George W. Bush. You think that I am immoral and anti-family, because I support women's reproductive freedom and gay rights. You think that I am dangerous, and even evil, because I do not abide by your religious beliefs.

Maybe you are content to think that, to write me off as a ?liberal? - - the dreaded ?L? word - - and rejoice that your candidate has triumphed over evil, immoral, anti-American, anti-family people like me.

I believe that this is b*lls**t. I certainly do NOT believe that 51% of Americans believe this. This is what I think:

Just 10% of voters do believe this, and they voted for *
an additional 20% of voters will always vote R
an additional 10% of voters were snookered/scared into voting for *
an additional 5% of votes were stolen by various methods, as documented on this board

That is what I believe.

[lakeguy]

72. You can beleive what you want...

I wasn't living in NY on 9/11 so I can't relate to that terrible experience. I can say, though, that I know some Bush voters and they are ALL against gay rights and abortion. I'm in a "blue" state too. Obviously that's not your case, looking at your stats.

[RaleighNCDUer]

131. Well put, gristy. n/t

[howgroovy]

70. thank you

As a New Yorker, I have been trying to articulate your exact sentiments. Our city seems to be dying a capitalist death with the disneyfication of everything, and the right-wing attempt to water down our culture, but the people are more and more agitated. You can never suppress the NY spirit. They can have their guns and their turkey shoots, and their militias, and their missionaries, and their anti-abortion terrorists, and their jingoism, and their fast food, and their fat bloated tv-watching, talk radio listening, dumb, unsympathetic, greedy, racist ignoramuses.

I don't even talk to my Repuke friends anymore.

NY lives and breathes. Watch us as we make our comeback. You won't even see it or feel it until we've already started it. Then it will be too late to stop us.

[Greylyn58]

71. Wow!!!!

That letter is so true in every thing said.

Wow!!!

I need to share it with all I know.

[slor]

74. That was powerful...

and I do so know how she feels.

[bluestateboomer]

75. Loved the Letter

Out here on the left coast I feel the same fear and frustration. Unfortunately the red state people in the middle of the country will probably never get to read your words and they need to hear them the most.

[newyawker99]

162. Hi bluestateboomer!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

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[cidliz2004]

79. Your arguments are weak at best

Q1) Are you terrified?

A1) Most days not.

Your son went to Iraq to free Iraqi's or remove Saddam because he was in imminent threat to the United States? We the American People were sold the latter initially. We are now making MORE terrorists because of our OCCUPATION in Iraq and by the KILLING and maiming of innocent Iraqi women and children.

Q2) Is your life at stake?

A2) Yes, quite simply, it is. And so is my son's. Our risks of death are measurably higher than an office worker sitting at a desk in New York.
Cheap shot! Most people in the Red States are not in the armed forces and/or law enforcement.

Q3) Why did you elect a man who did nothing except run away and hide on September 11?

A3) I'm not sure if you really want to hear the answer...but I will put it very succintly. I voted for President Bush because, in my mind, he was the man better equipped to handle the war on terror.

That answer shows that you have poor judgment. Time will prove out, the people that DON'T think Bush is better at fighting terror to be more correct. EVERYTHING but everything that this administration has done and said about Iraq has proven wrong or gone wrong.

In the end, we want the same thing...peace...maybe we can work together to bring it about.

Wrong again, Bush is NOT wanting peace, he is not using diplomacy to keep the peace and he invented boogie men so that we could go to Iraq and invade and bomb a country that was no threat to us.

The TRUE BLUE people see Bush for what he is...dangerous - a liar - a radical - not a true Republican

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[MaraJade]

175. This typifies the dreamworld that the Bush supporters live in. . .

"A2) Yes, quite simply, it is. And so is my son's. Our risks of death are measurably higher than an office worker sitting at a desk in New York."

What a blockheaded dummy. The centers of finance and commerce simply AREN'T in any of the red states. Terrorists aren't stupid.
There's nothing WORTH HITTING in any of those places where the deer
and the antilope play. I hate to put this so crudely, but the local
corn crib collapsing doesn't even rate on the Richter Scale compared to, say, an attack on LAX or the destruction of the Stock Exchange in
New York. People in the Blue States are simply in far more danger than people in the Red because the BLUE STATES ARE WHERE EVERYTHING IMPORTANT HAPPENS HERE. DUH! In fact, we should all probably move to West Podunk, Montana or whereever--we'd be far safer there than in any East Coast or West Coast major city. This person has La-La Land blinders on. What a waste of time.

[Winamericaback]

91. response

You know what I really wish that more people on the web would come together and share viewpoints with out all the yelling and bickering and name calling that is so prevelant.

I do appreciate you making the effort even though I don't agree with a single thing you have said ;)

Your child serving in the military is a very honest and commendable thing, without our armed forces we would not be what we are today. Sometimes war is needed, sometimes there is no other option. It was nessisary to use troops to fight for our freedom in the Revolutionary War, it was also just to use our troops to aid our allies in WWI, our troops were fundamental in stopping to spread the threat of nazism and the overthrow of our European Allies one of which helped us win our independence so many years prior. But that is where respectable war ended, when war for "freedom" ended. Korea, Vietnam were both about stopping the spread of communism because we didn't agree with its dictates. They were of no harm to us and yet we still felt the need to get involved. The Gulf war was about protecting an ally and once the threat was over we retreated.

Now we have IRAQ, a war which we started for no reason. Saddam was an evil man, I agree there and he was a threat to his people but not a threat to us. Why Iraq? Why not Cambodia, The Congo, Brazil, Indonesia? They all treat their citizens in the same way. They are all run by brutal dictators. WHY Iraq? Because he had WMD'S? But he didn't. Why not N. Korea or Russia, both having Nuclear weapons. Because he aided Alqaida? But he didn't. Osama and him HATE eachother because Saddam created a secular society. So why are our young men and women getting killed and wounded by the thousands? WHY?
Why is our own country faltering for this? Why are we neglecting our schools, our health system, our poor and our weak? Why are we allowing this to continue when the rest of the world looks at us as fools. Why are we throwing away billions of dollars on a war we will never win (We learned this in Vietnam) while our economy gets flushed down the toilet?


You say you support the law, yet you support the breaking and manipulation of laws that we have had in place since 18th century.

While your lives may be of greater risk is the person who does your taxes's life at greater risk that the person whop just happens to be walking around Manhatten? This is what I don't understand. People say well NY has always been liberal. If the people of NY had the opportunity to elect a president that they thought could calm their fears and REALLY keep them safe don't you think they would, if that person was a Republican do you think Ny'ers would sacrifice their own safety to vote against him? They wouldn't, they are the ones who risk dying every day, every hour and every minute and they made the decision that they felt would keep them safe. But people who have NO idea what it is like to live in fear decided for them.

Maybe we can work together to bring peace, but that doesn't seem to be your agenda.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[RaleighNCDUer]

135. I appreciate your considerate discussion of issues. Living in a

so-called red state, I hear a lot of discussion which is not nearly as calm or considerate.

I can understand your reasoning on many of the issues, though I disagree with them. One point, however, I must point out is that the WMD intelligence was not simply inaccurate. It was manufactured by this administration. CIA reports before the war clearly stated that Saddam had no capacity for building WMDs. The information that was listened to went from our paid agent, Chalabi, directly to the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon, and was then presented as the only reliable information. Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Bush wanted this war. The only listened to information that supported their view.

This has been common knowledge for months, ever since the administration disavowed Chalabi, or rather since they got from Chalabi what they needed then threw him away.

If I took at face value what the government said, I would likely have supported the war myself -- I come from a military family and served in the Marines, and am not opposed to war in principle recognizing its occasional necessity. But Watergate taught me to look twice at everything any government official says, and where possible to examine the sources.

This administration is simply not credible in either the war in Iraq or the war on terror.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[cidliz2004]

80. Welcome to the DU

but could you speak English?

[The Minus World]

117. Inane.

Your analysis offers little more than the pseudo-intellectual posturing it seems to bemoan.

"Benighted intellectual superiority"? "Moral crapulence"? Your criticism of the left, swarming with camoflauged epithets, is the work of an individual more interested in manipulating the English language than using it to convey substance.

When a writer crafts a sentence, it is his or her responsibility to ensure that it elicits the intended response; that the proper inferences are made by the reader. Based on some simple inferences that can be made from your text, your presuppositions of liberalism are laughable mischaracterizations at best.

I have not met a single liberal who believes that terrorism would cease to exist if America would simply adopt unflinching acceptance of the gay lifestyle. On the contrary, the arguments for and against such trivialities of the human condition have been wielded as cudgels against the left for far too long; expoiting the uneducated right's homophobia and xenophobia as a political tool in order to establish a strong base of support.

There, of course, is a faction of the left dedicated to working for social justice. It is unfortunate that, in this day and age of philosophical development, such conditions still exist wherein a targetted minority group may become the victim of intolerance. As you can see, such work for social justice is necessitated when a particular political party deems fit to elevate the discourse about gay marriage to a level which overshadows national security, constitutional rights, and America's dignity on a global scale.

Rather than engaging in your self-enamored bloviations, I suggest you take a good look at the target of your criticisms. My friend, develop a rational opinion of your opposition first; then you can indulge in all the name-calling you wish.

[Winamericaback]

136. Clap Clap

Well Done!

[stevegrogan]

83. Why So Defensive

The letter won't do any good because it immediately starts off defensively.... Maybe you think this... Maybe you think that... Maybe.... and then a litany of stereotypes. I don't think most Bush voters dismissed Kerry voters in those terms, and if they did, they aren't reachable anyway. The right has so many eloquent people to frame their arguments for them, and we have glurge letters... <sigh>

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Winamericaback]

87. response

I'm not going to analyze the whole thing.

I see what you were trying to do but next time try and do it in your own words :)

This I have a problem with:
"I see that gay people exist. I also think they should be allowed to exist, and be treated the same as other people. But I also believe that marriage is a religious sacrament, not a civil ceremony."

Can you explain to me (before this thread gets locked) how 2 men or 2 women getting married hurts you or your marriage with your significant other? Marriage is not a religious ceremony unless you decide to make it so. It is purely a legal ceremony to receive a legal document.

I am an atheist, I am also engaged. I will be married without GOD by a judge in the strictest legal way. How is 2 men or 2 women getting married that way hurt you?

I'm not judging you on your beliefs. You have the right to them and while I don't agree I would like to try and understand because you have made an effort to express yourself in a way that wasn't patronizing or full of hatred and for that I commend you :)

I know many Republicans but all of them, and I mean ALL of them disagree with Bush on social issues, I have NEVER talked to a Republican that agreed that same-sex marriage was bad or that abortion was immoral or that this war was just.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Winamericaback]

97. Thank you

For the clarification. I didn't realize that word choice was that important in swaying peoples opinions although I should have with the Republican spin on the "death tax" ;)

I think you've made a very good point and its something I'm going to try and do some research on.

Again thank you, I hope you stick around here. There will be some derogatory names thrown around of course.. but then we haven't figured out a way to make conservative sound bad yet ;)
Maybe we can learn something from you and hopefully you can learn something from us.

Have a good evening!

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

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[okasha]

166. Sanctfication by state

The state is a secular institution that does not sanctify anything: not your driver's licence, not your high school diploma, not your speeding ticket, not your marriage.

Currently there are two varieties of marriage available in the United States, as they are in most other countries: there is civil marriage, presided over by a judge or JP; and there is religious marriage, presided over by a clergyperson with the permission of the state. Either type requires a marriage licence to be legal.

All the Massachussetts Supreme Court has done is open up civil marriage to all its adult citizens who have no legal impediment to marriage. It has no authority at all, and should have none, to dictate who may be married by any religius rite. That's up to the individual bodies to decide. At a guess, Episcopalians, Unitarians and probably Disciples of Christ are likely to start marrying gay couples immediately it becomes legal; the Baptists and Catholics will be a century or so in coming round.

As for waiting for a blessing from the ballot box rather than the judiciary, do you believe that African-Americans' civil rights are tainted because they were first enforced by the judiciary rather than "granted" by popular vote? How long do you think they'd have had to wait for "legitimacy?" There are places they'd still be waiting.

Oh, and Etzel--you write like Bill Buckley with a bad case of flatulance. Get over it.

Okasha

[cidliz2004]

88. Two things mainly:

#1 To actually observe in person 9/11 in your own home town is a great deal more frightening than observing it on the T.V., so, YES, I do believe that the people that personally witnessed 9/11 have a right to claim a deeper fear then those of us who observed it on T.V.

#2 Yes, many people believed that Saddam had WMD. The difference is that believeing that you know and the actions that you take on that knowledge is what seperates many of us. Many of us "Blue" voters KNEW that this was, at best, a mistake. We witnessed many brain dead Government Officials and Media march us into an unnecessary war. WE KNEW that this would open a Pandora's box and that we would end up creating more terrorists than eliminate them. We knew that Cheney, Rumsfield and Wolfowitz had been "itching" to go back to Iraq and get Sadam since 91' when they approached 41' and he said no. Then they approached Clinton again in 98', when Clinton said "No".
We know that Rumsfield was shaking hands with Sadam and that we supplied Sadam with the poisenous gas that he used against his own people while we watched. We also know that Osamma was recruited and trained by the Republicans in the White House in the 80's. So, we don't like the spilling of innocent blood because of this sick war game playing group that wants world domination NOT world peace.

As an aside, we were not being threatened by Sadam, it was Osamma... You guys just can't keep that straight. All of our forces and effort is in Iraq, when the guy behind 9/11 is running free?!? Sorry, but it MAKES NO SENSE! A little logic goes a long way with us.

[Gman]

90. You may have your opinions, but it doesn't mean you have the right

to impose them on people. Its none of your business if someone gets married. You may have an opinion on gay marriage, but someone else's business is not yours. You may have an opinion on life at conception, but it is an opinion. That does not give you the right to impose your opinion on a woman's right to choose.

You may have an opinion about the great work our soldiers our doing with the kids in Iraq (and they are doing great work with the kids) but that in no way absolves Bush from bald faced lying to the world about WMD's in Iraq. It in no way excuses war crimes by Bush and Cheney. It in no way makes the 1200+ American soldiers that died okay. It in no way makes it okay that untold tens of thousands of Iraqis have died because of Bush's lies. Your opinion that neither Germany nor France would help out in Iraq is just that, an opinion. That opinion also reaks of contempt for the French and Germans. Did you laugh when they renamed French Fries to Freedom Fries. Did it give you a bit of satisfaction? If it did you must understand why we look down our noses at you. We live in a world where if everyone in the world is telling you that you are wrong, then it would behoove one to drop back and think about just what it is that everyone sees that you don't.

Now, you will likely want to accuse me of hating George Bush. Is that your opinion too? Actually, I don't hate George Bush even though he represents everything that is evil in human nature. He is too pathetic a figure for me to expend that much energy on him. I would much rather expend that energy undermining him and the right wing with every single person I encounter every day of the week. I do this with little comments while standing in line at the convenience store, or in groups of people that I don't know at the gym. I like to watch the smiles on their faces slowly appear and their heads start nodding when they realize that what I said out loud, in public to a group of strangers is the truth about Bush and the lunatic fringe right wind.

The problem is that I really don't think your opinions are based on a real pondering of issues. If they were, you wouldn't be making those arguments in the first place. Did you come to these opinions yourself and find other like minded people? I doubt that very seriously. I doubt that because the very things you call opinions were positions churned out years ago by lunatic fringe right wing think tanks. Unfortunately, you only think these are you opinions. And that is known as brainwashed.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

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[cidliz2004]

101. Tell me EXACTLY WHEN you chose to STOP LISTENING?

Because when that happened you stopped learning about the truth.

[Kaysera]

111. ... when it becomes obvious that any self-appointed so-called educator ...

... holds me in derision.

... in reply to ...

"Tell me EXACTLY WHEN you chose to STOP LISTENING?"
Posted by cidliz2004

Because when that happened you stopped learning about the truth.

[Gman]

104. The fact is that there is no common ground

at all. You and those you know may have rolled you eyes at Freedom Fries, but there are millions more that cried, "Yeah!". If you do in fact agree on many of the issues but disagree with the wording, why vote for Bush? I find that very disingenuous.

What about partial birth abortion? Do you understand that there is no such thing as a partial birth abortion? Do you realize that "partial birth abortion" is a phrase coined by religious nuts to misrepresent a medical procedure for a severely deformed fetus? Do you realize that it is actually an act of mercy that is morally and ethically preferable to letting a horribly deformed fetus writhe in pain and agony for the few hours of it's entire life until it dies a "natural" death? We treat dogs much better than that. Does the "right to life" include the right of a horribly deformed baby to die the death that should only be feared in nightmares? Do you realize that no woman in her right mind decides at the last minute that she doesn't want a baby so she has a "partial birth abortion"? Do you realize that no medical professional would kill a healthy viable baby just because the mother no longer wants it? Do you understand that a woman that would indeed want to terminate a baby's life just before it's born is in no better mental health than the woman that cut off her baby's arms? Do you understand that the woman that cut off her baby's arm's is insane? Or would it be your opinion that she just woke up that morning and just decided she would cut off her baby's arms? Do you feel she should be summarily executed in front of millions on national TV as a deterrence to all the other many women in the world that want to cut off their babies' arms?

There is no common ground when the other side demagogues these and other issues with nothing but poorly thought out (for lack of a better word) logic, but taken as gospel by millions.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

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[Gman]

138. You purposely avoided mention of my discussion of partial birth abortion

except to talk about running it as a commerical in OH. That is absolutely irrelevant. The issue has been demagogued to death and you know it.

You've thrown yourself into the lion's den. What say you about partial birth abortion? Is it not a proper medical procedure that was hijacked by radical "christian" clerics for propaganda purposes?

[hfojvt]

107. I had a friend who thought

I was brain-washed in college. We managed to stay friends anyway.
Actually that might be true in the sense of washing away all the Reader's Digest type myths about the way America works.

Of course, you wrote:
"I am concerned when your opinions are based on a film that is clearly biased and inaccurate."

So it seems as though you think we are brain-washed by Michael Moore.

Actually, I do not need Michael to prove to me that Bush is a liar - I did my own research, and not about Iraq. Bush lied over and over again about his tax cuts. That is not opinion, it is mathematical fact. It also makes me mistrust everything else he says.

Oh, and I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 for the first time about a week ago.

[Gman]

123. Ohiovoter2 has obviously NOT seen F911

and his (her?) statement about a "clearly biased and inaccurate" film prove that fact. As we here at DU know, Moore assembled everything that we already knew here at DU to be fact and presented it. Nothing in F911 was news to any long time DU'er. W

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

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[cidliz2004]

143. There are idiots on both sides

The problem with your side is your judgement. You have voted for someone who has consistently lied to us - - not one lie - - but several of them. He is taking our economy to the brink of disaster and thanks to your vote we will not recouperate it during our lifetime. Your vote also opened the door to our many of our civil rights being taken away. This administration has done so much bad that it is pointless to try to repeat over and over and over and over again what it is that you apparently have turned a blind eye to.
I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or to be angry with you, but what I do know is that when the ramifications of this reckless administration comes to light don't come crying on my shoulder and don't expect me to volunteer any of my young loved one's blood to save your young loved one's blood.

Remember one thing. The "Blue" voters may be a minority in this country...(choke choke), but in the World Community, YOU are the minority. Think about that.

[Puglover]

179. Damn damn damn

this is SOOO frustrating. Gman, Im sitting at work and just finished your excellant post but the mods deleted this charactors ramblings. I HATE it when they do this. I wish they would simply ban the account but leave the posts. I think it screws up the thread when you can only read one side of things.

[President Kerry]

187. wow... bravo! what an artful rebuttal. n/t

[hippywife]

122. How exactly would you define American interests?

What are our interests in the world that require protection? How many offensive and despicable things have been accomplished world-wide in the name of protecting American interests? Our government, both Dems and Reps alike, have propped up or ignored tyrant leaders, and their attendant attrocities, in order for our corporate profiteers to have easy access to natural resources which should benefit the peoples of these nations, not just their governments. There have been more people killed in the name of this easy access, either through aggression or neglect for the conditions under which these people are forced to live, so we can have cheap goods with which to decorate our lifestyles.

I am anti-abortion but I also agree that freedom of choice is important. No liberal I know is pro-abortion which is another misnomer the religious portion of the right has coined. Abortion is painful, expensive and inconvenient and hence is not practiced, or even practical as a form of birth control as some would have people believe. When more people are allowed to do well economically and are assisted in reducing unwanted pregnancy through education, abortions decrease.

I am an independent liberal, a little "d" democrat, not a Dem. I, and those like me, are more interested in curing the causes of problems than treating the symptoms. I beleive, and events have borne out this out, that terrorism exists anytime there are people who are denied the basic needs and rights that every human being is entitled to. Because of geographical, governmental, socio-economical, physiological, discriminatory or racial circumstances, there are those in this country and the world who will never be able to rise above the lot they have been given in life. When one views their life as bereft of the most basic of human needs and faced with oppression, what is it to them if they sacrifice their life in a last great act of defiance against those who are either actively or passively their oppressors?

I also believe that the Constitution was created to endow and protect rights, not to restrict them. It was meant to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. "Marriage" is not only a religious terminology given to what for all in this country are civil unions decreed legal by the government for purely secular reasons. Marriage is a perfectly secular and broad term designating a union which only takes on the sacramental, narrower definition based on ones opinion or belief. That being said, there are still mainstream churches that are willing to perform a "marriage" in its sacramental, narrowest definition for those of same gender. And for them, because of their individual beliefs (there are many gay believers in God), this blessing is no less important to them than it is for those that deny it to them.

I am not religious. I was raised Catholic, became agnostic, then upon further study and investigation, became a Christian. Religion is an institution created of man to control others, Christianity is not a religion, or was never intended to be one. I am a Christian (and a very left-leaning liberal), which is a description of my spiritual beliefs based on Christ's example of how people should treat others and with regard to social justice.

I believe the one overriding gift that God gave every human being from the very beginning is free will. I believe, as a Christian, that it is no coincidence that the gospels relating the life and example of Christ are physically located in the center of the Bible. He is the central figure of the Christian system of belief. For the Christian, nothing before or after supercedes his words and deeds.

Christ wasn't a militant figure bent on taking over the world and forcing his dogma by law on everyone. He reserved his strongest, and only real criticism, for the the religious right of his day and lived among those that they eshewed. He showed love for and held council with these people who were viewed as the lowliest of the low and bid them go in peace. As a Christian and a believer, how could I do any less?

And the funny thing is that I had very serious conflicts of my faith when I moved from Columbus (where I was born and raised for 38 years and where you are now) to the Tulsa area...the so called Bible Belt. I just couldn't reconcile what I knew of Christ with what I saw in action among those that call themselves his followers but surely didn't act like him. It wasn't until then that I became more liberal than I already was and a social activist, that I finally really found that if I stuck to the center of my chosen faith and not the dogma of the religious right, there was no crisis or contradiction in what I believe as a Christian to be found at all with the rights of people as humans (not labels) and the social justice so necessary for a successful community of people to not only survive, but thrive.

[Kaysera]

130. 280+ million American lives ?

[hippywife]

150. But...

what makes those lives anymore sacred than any other lives around the world and why are those other lives and the quality of them any less important?

Americans are largely unaware of the atrocities committed so they can live like they do. How many Americans on the street do you think are aware of issues like the SOA, Operation Phoenix during the Vietnam War, or why NAFTA and FTAA are bad, let alone the nuances and the behind the news issues of the current conflict in Iraq?

I think we have a unique position in the world but we misuse it for our own gain with little consideration for the other inhabitants of this planet. It's like because we had the fortune to develop and industrialize so quickly, the world is our oyster to plunder for whatever it takes to sustain our existence and if brown people half the world away need to suffer or die, hey thats just the way it is.

[cidliz2004]

151. I so totally agree with everything that you say!

Jesus didn't conduct his time on earth like the "Christian right" Bible belt people do. He didn't preach or live his life with a sword or by dominating others. He just showed pure love. He knew his fate (imminent threat to this admin.) yet he didn't perform a pre emptive strike in order to protect himself. He continued talking and teaching and he went to his death for no reason at all.

This administration and many others and many Dems as well are so "Non" Christian. The lies from GWB to "pre emptively" strike Iraq and kill so many innocents is UNGODLY. That is what makes me so crazy. We are the guys with the black hats, the black knights, we are not the good guys, we take what we want with little regard for the effect that it may have on others. We are selfish and uncaring beyond belief. I am embarassed for us as well as afraid for us because I do feel that God's wrath is not too far away.

Whatever gave us the "right" to kill innocent people to GIVE them freedom? Whatever gave us the "Brains" to know more than the rest of the world about whether it was right or wrong going into Iraq? The world community plainly said "No". Why were we so arrogant to think that WE were right and EVERYBODY ELSE WAS WRONG? It was a sham from the start. The dumb American people were sold a bill of goods and now MORE blood is on their hands. I hope and pray to God that somehow someway all of this insanity comes to an end. I don't want to be part of the guys with the black hats.

I loved your thoughts keep them coming!

cidliz2004

[Kaysera]

153. The President takes a vow to protect the lives of Americans.

If Kerry had won ... he would have also had to take that vow.

Defending American lives is the President's job.

[hippywife]

156. Protecting the lives of Americans

would be easier if we didn't always take, take, take from the rest of the world and throw our weight around as if we owned the whole thing. If we treated everyone equitably and gave everyone a fair shake.

Protecting the lives of Americans doesn't mean securing one of the largest oil reserves so that we can control it and kill uncounted numbers of people doing so...ours and theirs. This president has not protected American lives, he's put more of us in jeopardy than we have ever been in history, even during the Cold War. Mutually assured destruction on both sides kept the US and the USSR in a relationship of equals regardless of how chilly it was at times. That principle no longer holds true in the war on terrorism.

[Macperdilia]

155. Very good!!

I agree 100%

[newyawker99]

163. Hi Macperdilia!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Macperdilia]

168. Hi newy!!!

:toast:

[Eric J in MN]

126. Why do you think Bush is competent at fighting terrorism when

he went on vacation after getting the memo "Bin Laden Determined to Strike the US," has let bin Laden go free since by shifting resources to Iraq?

Bush also ssid he's "not concerned" with catching bin Laden.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eric J in MN]

134. Osama wants to nuke us.

I don't think Clinton did enough to fight terrorism, either,but Kerry would have kept his eye on the ball.

Meanwhile, Osama bin Laden wants to nuke us.

http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_essay_2004_11_21_osama_bin_laden_is_planning_nuclear_attack.asp

From the Minneaplis Star Tribune:

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- A newly retired CIA terrorism expert said Friday he has no doubt that Osama bin Laden wants to unleash a nuclear attack on the United States, perhaps with one of about 100 "suitcase bombs" believed missing from the former Soviet Union.

Moreover, Bin Laden's Al-Qaida network likely has operatives in the United States who could obtain radioactive material from a research laboratory or medical facility and set off a "dirty bomb," said Michael Scheuer, who headed the CIA's Bin Laden unit from 1996 to 1999.

Scheuer said Al-Qaida concluded it was "too darned hard" to obtain the plutonium and equipment to build a nuclear weapon, "so they're after a kind of off-the-shelf device, if they could find one," and the Soviet Union seems the most likely place.

"What we know is that he's always said it was a religious obligation to have the same weapons as their enemies," Scheuer said. "He clearly has said he would use it. He doesn't intend it as a deterrent. It's going to be a first strike."

[Winamericaback]

137. Hmm

Well ... Bin Laden's in a cave right now, struggling to stay alive

I'd like to live in that cave.

Thousands of dollars in cameras and eqipment. Satellite systems, probably some VERY nice furniture considering he has about 30 million at his disposal.

If you REALLY think he is hiding in a cave I pity your blind faith in Faux news. The man could be living in Texas for all we know.. he could have befriended the Queen and is now living it up in Buckingham. WE DON'T KNOW because Bush went after the trumped up threat instead of the real one.

ALL I ask of any Republican is to do independent searches for news. DO NOT let Fox, CNN or the networks feed you baised information. Wether it be left or right, come to your own educated conclusions.

News should not be biased, if it is then it isn't news, it is warped and distorted to fit their own agenda. How can you trust that?

[cyberpj]

142. News and Media have failed us all

Used to be journalists could dig until the kernals of absolute truth (those items that had either concrete proof or at the least the least amount of disagreement possible) were found. Now, thanks to corporate ownership the news and media are mostly fed items to print and discuss --many taken from AP or Reuters desks word for word.

Those who try to publish anything considered anti-government have usually been silenced, OR find the details to prove their story sealed under the guise of "national security". Never in our history has there been a more secretive and hidden administrative and military record.

Many of us are hoping the Internet (just the one) will become the latest stronghold of a free press but now even that could be jeopardized. 2 article links follow:

1 - FCC wants Christian morals for the net and cable

US COMMUNICATION watchdog the FCC is apparently so pleased with its moral crusade following the Janet Jackson boob it now wants to purge what it calls immorality from the interweb and cable channels.

None of the US media that are looking at this story have said how the FCC is planning to censor the interweb. We assume they would have to follow a similar model to China where autocratic censorship of a huge population on the Interweb has been largely successful.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19761


2 -
Is Big Brother Listening to Your Chat Room Conversations?

The U.S. government recently funded a study through the National Science Foundation to come up with a way to monitor conversations in online chat forums for signs of terrorist communications:
http://www.winxpnews.com/rd/rd.cfm?id=041102ED-Study

The AP story on this by Michael Hill was picked up by just about every computer news outlet on the Web; if you do a Google search for "chat surveillance," you'll find dozens of hits quoting the article, along with various commentary.

Cont'd here.....
http://www.winxpnews.com/index.cfm?id=149


1984 is just 20 years late.

PJ

[cidliz2004]

152. Clinton didn't let a 9/11 happen on his watch. In fact they stopped

plenty of attempted strikes. Bush is the one who wasn't paying attention when 9/11 happened, and he still takes vacations. THAT IS WHY!

Osamma was trained by our CIA under the Reagan/Bush Admin., Osamma and many of his leaders THRIVE IN CAVES that is where much of their planning takes place. WAKE UP Our SOPHISTICATED forces cannot even find Osamma in his PRIMITIVE CAVES! So how effective does that make us when WE/BUSH cannot even get the #1 terrorist who is "struggling to stay alive" DRINK SOME MORE KOOLAIDE!

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cidliz2004]

173. Uhhh, I think training Osama helped pave the way to 9/11

I think that giving Osamma lessons by our CIA on how to recruit and train soldiers helped 9/11 along

I think that Reagan/Bush's policy on working and enabling Osamma had more to do with 9/11 than Clinton. Reagan's and Bush's Policies CREATED the monstor.

Reagan and Bush's policy handed Sadam WMD and Rumdum met with Sadam and there are pictures of him shaking Sadam's hand. When Sadam used these weapons supplied by the U.S. on his own people. ... Guess what????? We did NOTHING but watch. This again was under the Bush Admin. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Put the blame for the creators of the monstors, put the blame for us enabling Sadam to grow in power, put the blame for turning a small time dictator into a larger more dangerous threat where it belongs......BUSH. Put the blame for Saddam killing his own people and GETTING AWAY WITH IT OVER A DECADE AGO, WHILE WE SAT BACK AND WATCHED, where it belongs....on BUSH! They created, enabled, viewed and tolerated all of it until they decided to start twisting information and lying to claim the valuable land and location in the ME, Iraq. They are building 14 military bases there for ME domination and control OPEN YOUR EYES.

[LTR]

93. This is one of the best threads I've ever read on DU

And I've been here almost a year and a half.

It says everything I want to say myself, and has earned a place in my bookmarks.

It's good to read the front page of DU. Amazing the great posts one can come across. I may even spread it around on some other boards.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LTR]

96. Hey, what you do in your spare time...

...is none of my business.

Some things I'd rather not know about.

[HoosierClarkie]

106. LOL!

You are good. :)

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MacVet]

105. Wonderfully awesome letter!

This is such a powerful, moving letter! I have a cousin who lives in Manhattan. She has a husband, a lawyer, and two babies. Every time I hear of anything going on there, I think of her and her family. There was that helicopter crash earlier this year.

I live in the DC area. My wife used to take the subway to work everyday and I always feared for her safety. Thank goodness she's retired and I don't have to worry about that now. There was a subway accident the other day.

I love the tone of her letter. The people in the reddish states simply don't know the folks in the bluish ones. Our realities are very different. Nothing much happens where they live except for the OK bombing, tornadoes and hurricanes yet they're the people who fear those who seem a bit different from them. Why is that?

We need to get to know each other a little better before the next election. We also need to have a better election system next time.

Thanks so much for sharing this letter!

[newyawker99]

164. Hi MacVet!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[janx]

110. Does this woman actually think that everyone in between

the coasts voted for *Bush?

[The Doctor.]

112. I don't know what makes me more sad...

Her words, or knowing that they are wasted on so many.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

113. Very powerful. Thanks

[Ima]

116. Excellent letter.

[TexasLady]

124. Glad this was on the front page.

Wake up, America, and walk a mile in her shoes.

[RaleighNCDUer]

125. self delete --

I just woke up and am not coherent enough to post yet.

[progressivedancer]

132. I must say

It's great reading through people's responses on this forum, sometimes though people just respond instinctively without reading through the whole thread. I love reading through all of it, if given the time.

I love it when conservative people talk about us (us gay/lesbian folks). We are so much the center of controversy that we all somehow lose a face. We in someways just become a caricature or a concept, but we do exist. some of us go to Church and some of us are pure atheists. We are everywhere and just like everyone. This is a concept I think many conservatives miss out on. They hate us so much that they forget we are human beings.

Ohiovoter2, are you scared of me?????? I'm a nurse and an architecture student. I used to be a dancer, but i just do that part time now. I want to get married some day (a LEGAL MARRIAGE, I DON'T EVER INTEND ON MARRYING RELIGIOUSLY) and adopt kids that need someone to love them. I hope to settle in Chicago, buy a good sized home and attend every single Chicago summer art fair I can with my family. Then if life permits I will retire and explore more of Asia (my motherland)with my hubby. There are a lot of inbetweens that I missed, but this forms a good picture doesn't it.
TELL ME OHIOVOTER2, WHAT ABOUT THIS SCENARIO DO YOU FIND FRIGHTENING!!?!?!??!!?!?!? Will it make you and your family gay too????????

We don't want your religious approval. We want legal recognition so we can live out our lives with the proper safety nets that other families have. We respect the church, that is why we never force it upon them to recognize us. Our struggle is purely legal.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eric J in MN]

127. The letter was written by Susan Schroeder.

http://www.opednews.com/schroeder_111204_red_states.htm

[robbedvoter]

141. Careful if you sign in - they trick you into accepting mail, having e-mail

exposed (any other settings and your password won't match)
there's no way to alter those settings once you registered. And then, when you want to comment, you are sent back to register. Anyway, I made my comment here.
And there, there's a huge freeper answer - who is proud that "911- I saw it on tevee, and boy I am pissed" rhetoric.

[robbedvoter]

140. I only wish the writer knew we won, were robbed. Other than that

he speaks for me too.

[SF Bay Area Dem]

144. If anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you.

<I don't think you realize what you have done. And if
anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you. I wanted you to know
that.>

That last sentence says it all.

I am so disgusted with these red states. I have relatives in Texas (Dallas) and rural northeastern Arkansas... all Bush "supporters". When my wife asked them why they voted for Bush they looked at her and said 'because Kerry is to wishy-washy' --- she told them they sound just like the commercials. They went on to rail against the blue states and how immoral we all are here and that we were unpatriotic (blah blah blah) and how much better it was to live in red state middle America. When I asked why they thought middle America was better than the blue states area they replied because we do not have the problems that you blues have. When I showed them the rates for murder, rape, robbery, teen pregnancy's, bankruptcy's etc... were much higher in the red states they looked at me like I am crazy. I happen to have a spreadsheet outlining all of this and had it with me. Their mouths dropped open. I asked them why 15 out of the 25 most dangerous cities are in the red states? Again, no reply. I ended the conversation by telling them when their job gets outsourced to go ask Jerry Falwell for a loan to keep the electricity on and see what he tells you... (meaning the pig would not give them a dime)

It is true that the tax base and overall wealth that underwrites this pathetic war in Iraq is in the blue states with California, New York, Massachusetts and Illinois leading the way. Banking, finance, hi-tech, bio-tech, nano-tech, telecoms, stock markets, insurance industry, aerospace, major shipping ports, government, entertainment etc... is all based in the blue states.

We pay out more than we get back in return from the federal government and we are disrespected this way by these trailer trash moralists in the red states?

Also... the lion's share of the military casualties and body bags returning home from overseas are blue states. We are giving away our blood and treasure for this fiasco of the Republicans making.

I am not saying anything all of you do not already know. I know there are some good dems in the red states --- hang in there, we got your back!

I am angry, disgusted and dismayed by all of this. I will not give up though and will keep fighting to take this country back from these fools in charge now.

Thanks for letting me rant.

MDM
Blue California - Democrat Country!

[Chalco]

146. I'm blue, too

:crazy::crazy: :crazy::crazy::crazy:

[toymachines]

147. i want to know why this letter isnt on some front page

it so beautifully expresses the whoes of kerry supporters everywher. i truly do not think the red staters understand where we are coming from. if they were exposed to this in some way, but it would have to be thrown in their faces, since they dont want to learn anything except what they think they know. very well written.

[toymachines]

148. why isnt this on the front page of every newspaper?

it so beautifully expresses the whoes of kerry supporters everywher. i truly do not think the red staters understand where we are coming from. if they were exposed to this in some way, but it would have to be thrown in their faces, since they dont want to learn anything except what they think they know. very well written.

[tlmstar]

149. Wow!

I have been lurking on DU for quite a while now, just thought I'd add my 2 cents. This is an amazing letter, well written and from the heart. I too sat wondering after the election how it could be that the majority people closest to the tragedy (New Yorkers, New Enghlanders)supported Kerry while those in middle-America support B* -while using 9/11, fear rhetoric as an excuse for supporting B*. Interesting concept and explored well in this letter.
Peace,
T

[newyawker99]

165. Hi tlmstar!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[trappednaredstate]

172. Red Voter Poll

Here's an intereting report of what "red" voters think v. what "blue" voters know, titled "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Voters 10/21/04".

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Report10_21_04.pdf



:wtf:

[rhys2k1]

157. Excellent Letter. I appreciate the author's self-disclosure.

[AuntiBush]

167. RE: My Maryland Hat off to New York Letter!

Wishful thinking that a red-state/red-voter will care, sadly and I mean very sadly so. But, my heart goes out for you and your family. At the very least, our hearts and minds are in the right place. Hang in there. You're not alone. I care. That's why I voted for Kerry.

Take care.

[cpa]

181. Another Marylander weigh in

Everyone should e-mail Susan and tell her what a great letter she wrote! Since you are from Maryland, what do you think of Ehrlich forbidding people in his administration from talking to the two reporters? I think Ehrlich is a crybaby!

[robbedvoter]

169. See Bushie's response on the website where the letter is (follows it)

snip
We are not immune to bomb scares, evacuations, or even terrorist threats to our malls. We used to think that since we weren’t in New York or L.A., we must be safe. We don’t think that any more. Even with our increased security, we don’t have soldiers and bomb sniffing dogs on a daily basis. But I have seen them - along with street closures, circling helicopters and lockdowns - when someone reports a “suspicious” package or activity. Please don’t think that because you live in New York, you have a monopoly on fear, nervousness or the related security measures.
http://www.opednews.com/schroeder_111204_red_states.htm

[AuntiBush]

171. RE: Apology Site New to USA from Round the World

Since I'm new an can not begin a post yet, I found this great site thanks to Michael Moore's website entitled "Apologies Accepted" with regards to http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ - it's at http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/index.html and it's worth a look; from Europe to us! Very refreshing to receive such hope from 'round the world - more then I can say about some of our fellow Americans (reds).

[MaraJade]

176. Ah Shucks!

I was just thinking of posting this information! You beat me to it, but no matter. I am very happy to see that someone did post it, just
the same.

We must emphasize that the world is wondering what the hell is going on over here. The vast majority of the people on this planet think
that US citizens are insane to put up with this Chimp!

My daughter had the priviledge, this past summer, of being a Student
Ambassador to Australia and New Zealand with the People to People Program. She went there with a select group of Junior High School and Middle School students representing the best of the American
Citizenry to the world. When she returned, she regaled me with stories of being told by everyone from Maoris to Aborigines to common folk in Australia and New Zealand how much Dubya is disliked.
He was universally believed to be a worthless fool.
NO ONE LIKES HIM OUT THERE,FOLKS! People are AFRAID of him! He is
universally believed to be not only mentally deficient, and severely lacking in the wisdom and magnaminity that makes rulers great, but actually thoughtless, selfish and DANGEROUS! The vast majority of humankind genuinely believe that having this particular man in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth is a threat to human existence everywhere. With his bullying, uncooperative attitude,the Chimp has made the US an enemy of humanity.

For the first time in human history, the US is not viewed as the light of nations, but as a villain and tyrant that must be fought and defeated. Dubya and his Project for a New American Century
Colonialism has done more to HELP terrorist movements worldwide than any despot who ever lived. Directly because of him, there are
more people passionately dedicated to the destruction of the United
States than at any time in human history. Dubya has made us MORE UNSAFE. Period.

What the Repukes must start to believe is that even a Lion Can Be
Bearded In His Den. There is quite simply more of everyone else than there is of us. Furthermore, we need the resources and cooperation of others. What will we do if other nations start to strike back with embargoes, etc., against us? We DO need the cooperation of others on this planet to survive.

That is why this apology website was such a VERY GOOD IDEA. We must
let the world know that half the people in the US were not stupid enough to vote for this man and that half of us will continue to work
against him.

[EnfantTerrible]

182. I live in NY city also

and I wish I could have written that letter. A friend and I were just saying last week how ironic it is that we who live in the highest risk cities for a terrorist attack all wanted Bush out of office... we on the front lines, as it were, don't feel safer for having Bush in office. This letter is a beautiful crystalization of what myself and every New Yorker I've spoken to about this subject feel.

[hansolsen]

183. I also "explained my vote" in a letter to the editor of my local paper.

I have received many thanks from fellow Dems for writing this letter, and with one or two exceptions, my Republican friends have been as warm and friendly as usual. Here it is:

A hand across the divide.

Neighbors, I write to you today, not to persuade you to vote for my candidate - John Kerry - but to explain my vote. Our nation is deeply divided over this election, and I am concerned that no matter who wins, there will be many who deeply resent the outcome. My hope is that here in Ely, we do not resent our neighbor's votes. I know many people in town who's opinions I value, who support George Bush. I think they're wrong, but I respect their views, and I would never let this difference of opinion get in the way of our friendship. So in that spirit, let me try to explain why I cannot support George Bush, just in case John Kerry wins.

I come by my politics honestly, I learned them from my parents, who are still living, are life long Democrats, and have never worked so hard in their lives to unseat a sitting President. My 84 year old World War II combat veteran father has put up 32 Kerry signs, and every one of them has been stolen in the night. He keeps putting them up. My mother, who is legally blind, attended the Edwards rally and has handed out literature door to door. So in part, I support Kerry to honor them.

But mostly, I oppose George Bush, not so much because of his obvious incompetence, but because of his character and his values. Now I would never sit in judgment of another man's soul, but I will judge the actions taken in my name by this President. My own values were formed in many ways, including attending Catholic grade school in Hibbing. And I will say that when the Nuns were done teaching, you had a pretty good idea of the difference between good and evil, and could tell mortal sins from venial sins. Based on those lessons, here is my list of actions taken by George Bush that do not pass muster:

1. He let American soldiers go to war in Iraq thinking they were getting revenge for 9-11. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, and revenge on this scale is a mortal sin, in my opinion.

2. He determined to go to war in Iraq long before 9-11, and used WMD as a convenient threat to convince the people to go along. I believe George Bush knew there was no WMD in Iraq. It was clear before the war no WMD existed. In the pages of the Ely Echo, in the month before the war, I called the evidence presented, "thin gruel, about two peas to a gallon." If I could figure that out, surely Bush and the CIA knew. I believe George Bush lied to the American people. Now I might be wrong, but that is what I believe.

3. When George Bush denied protections of the Geneva Convention to enemy combatants in this conflict, he unleashed torture on innocent people. I believe torture is never justified, even to save the life of an American soldier. As a practical matter this policy has been a national disaster and a national disgrace. When George gets to the Pearly Gates, and meets with St. Peter seeking entry, I believe this chapter of his life will entail a much longer and harder conversation than Mr. Bush now expects.

4. I am troubled by the bumper stickers that say, "I support the troops", and "I support George Bush." Those are two contradictory ideas, in my opinion. They don't belong in the same sentence. In fact, you can't jam those two ideas in the same sentence with a sledge hammer, a crow bar, and a pressure cooker. George Bush sends our soldiers into battle every day in situations where they cannot tell friend from foe, and where they must fight under rules of engagement (George Bush's rules of engagement), where they cannot fire unless fired upon first. This is insane. And it still results in untold civilian deaths. I believe this is an unjust war, and I want my grandchildren, a hundred years from now, to know where I stood at the time. I will save this letter to the editor so they know. But enough on the war.

5. George Bush also thinks it is fine that his CEO buddies now make what 500 of their employees make, and what a 1000 people on minimum wage make. This nation has the greatest disparity in income of any industrialized country on earth. Greed is tearing apart the fabric that binds the nation together. Tax cuts for these same CEOs is Bush's clearest legacy. I say it is not right. CEO pay is out of hand. It amounts to theft. It is unethical, and I don't like it. And I don't care who knows I don't like it.

6. George Bush, Colin Powell, and Colin Powell's son at the FCC have set in motion changes to FCC regulations that allow further consolidation of media ownership by large corporations. In my opinion, this concentration of media ownership constitutes a profound threat to America. On a 100 point threat scale, if Saddam Hussein was about a 2, loss of the free press is about a 100. This threat comes from George Bush and his allies.

7. Finally, I am not impressed with politicians who spout God talk like a fountain, thump the Bible all week, and sit in the front pew on Sunday, dressed in their finery, trying to look innocent. In my opinion, George Bush is the least Christian man who ever served in the Oval Office. He tries to use religion for political purposes. I know this -- when religion is in a man's home, his heart, and his church, good comes of it. When organized religion is dragged into politics, evil comes of it. Religion, coupled with politics, can be used by some people to exercise illegitimate power over other people. That is one of the fundamental root causes of trouble on earth, and anyone who thinks our politicians are so pure, and good, and innocent, they would never stoop to using that power unwisely, is a poor student of human history, in my opinion.

So that is why I am voting against George Bush. Now I might see it wrong, but please, try to put yourself in my shoes -- if you believed what I believe, wouldn't you do the same? See you at the voting booth.

[cpa]

185. Very Good Response

I think you are more correct than people like me in that you will not let this election interfere with your friendship with the Republicans. However, it will be a long time before i can forgive them for this. Since the election, people have continued to die and be maimed. The Bush voters must take responsibility for their actions.

[tahoebashadem]

186. WONDERFUL, HEART-WRENCHING -- TRUTHS!

This letter comes from the GUT and hits the GUT.

What an earnest, heart-felt, straight forward down-to-earth effort this letter is. It is so sad and heart-wrenching that either through sublime ignorance, wanton blindness or fear of seeming unpatriotic, those people in the red states could not search down inside for the truths that this woman has so poignantly expressed and helped to set this country in a different direction -- for all Americans.

Thanks to you for sharing this wonderful letter!

[wellst]

189. A fairly reasonable response to the letter

This response was posted at Spitting Llamas . If you want to respond to the author, please do so here here . Although I disagree with the author on many points, he did give me some insight why some voted for Bush.

T
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I am writting a letter to the person from New York. I have read your letter and still do not know you. I would love to meet you and get to know you because I am sure you are an increadible nice person. However, I did vote for George W. Bush. I live in California, but I am originally from Ohio and I voted absentee. I used to live in Hawaii and if I still lived there, I would vote for Bush. I used to live in Japan and if I still lived there I would have voted for Bush. I used to live in Rhode Island, and if I still lived there, I would still have voted for Bush. I used to live in Pennsylvania, and if I still lived there, I would still have voted for Bush. Kerry won those regioins, except for Japan, he might have won there if they could vote.

Maybe you want to know more about me. Or maybe not, maybe you think you know me already. You think I am some right wing nut case who is pro war and thinks the rest of the world is wrong because I voted for Bush. You think I hate homosexuals, the environment, and woman’s freedom to take care of their bodies as they see fit. You think I am dangerous and evil, because I do not abide by your religious beliefs.

Maybe you are content to think that to write me off as a “conservative” and lament that your candidate did not defeat the evil George Bush.

But maybe you are still curious. So here goes: this is who I am.

I am an American. I was in a hotel room thousands of miles from my home on September 11th. I was putting on my uniform, watching CNN as they broke in to tell that the World Trade Center was on fire. Then they updated to say that a plane had crashed into on of the towers. I sat there and watched as the second plane hit the second tower. At that time I knew the United States was under attack. I had to leave because I was attending an Air Warfare Conference for the Abraham Lincoln Battle Group. When we arrived at the Naval Base in Pt. Mugu, California we were informed that the Pentagon had also been hit and that the conference has been cancelled because all of the personnel from the ships and air wings attending the conference had to get underway or fly missions in response to these attacks. I spent the rest of the week in my hotel room in front of the television watching the events unfold, not knowing where these events would take me.

I am a United State Naval Surface Warfare Officer. At that time I was the Air Warfare Officer on the USS Hopper. A guided missile destroyer stationed in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

I have not had bad dreams or flash backs about the events on September 11th. But I can empathise with you. I am truely sorry you have experienced what you have. I regret that I cannot take away your fear or pain that you feel about that day in September. I have sworn to protect the Constitution of the United States which in tern protects you. I am sorry that I could do nothing to change the events of September 11th.

I am stopped every day by armed guards every day as I go to work. I spent months away from my family and friend while on deployment. I go into harms way to make sure events like September 11th do not happen again. I work with the thousands of other sailors who keep the sea lanes open for all countries, not just the U. S. I have freind who have returned from war with missing arms and legs who do not regret for one second that they have liberated the people in Afghanistan and Iraq. I help them with simple tasked that less than a year ago they were able to do on their own.

I am a taxpayer. I worked my butt off to get where I am now. I enlisted in the Navy when I was 18 and paid my way through college. In fact I am still paying off the loans. After college I went to officer candidate school to become an officer and have qualified on two destroyers as officer of the deck and combat information center officer of the watch and air warfare commander. I have had the priviledge of representing the United States in over 15 countries around the world and not a single one of them has turned us away or shown any anger or hostility. I was welcomed with open arms. When on deployment I worked 180 days straight without a weekend or even a place to go where I could be by myself. I have done this because I want to. Not because I was drafted, or because I have some political goals, I do it becasue I love to serve my country.

I don’t have my exact numbers on the taxes I paid last year, but it was about 33% in federal taxes the same percentage amount you paid or close to it.

All Americans are paying for the war in Iraq, Alaska to Florida we are all paying for this war.

I am conservative in a lot of my points of view and I am liberal in a lot of my points of view. However, becasue I voted for Bush many people who voted for Kerry would think I am a conservative, Bible thumping Christian who is ignorant trying to force my moral values on the entire nation.

But let me tell you how I see the world: I see America as one nation in a world of nations. I think we should try and get along with other nations. I think we should help other nations because we are the richest nation in the world. I see that gay people exist. I think they should be allowed to exist and be treated the same as other people. I see that women have the right to determine if they get pregnant or not. I see embryonic stem cell research as a lot of fale hopes that is being used as a political pawn. If everyone would reseach embryonic stem cell research they would see there are much more advantages to adult stem cell research. Why not focus most of our money and efforts in the area that has the most potential.

I see that we have a constitution and I have sworn my life to defend it. I think it should be upheld for everyone, even the embryos that have not yet been born. I see that they have not found the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I also know that does not mean they are not there or that they were never there. I do not believe Iraq was an imminent threat to me, but they were a threat to the Middle East and if Iraq has a split second chance to do harm to the United States I believe the former government would have made every effort to do the United States harm.

I do not think voting against gay marrage will keep people from being gay. I think marrige is and institution started in the church and condoned by the government. I do believe that homosexual partners should have all the benifits of married couples but I do not believe the churches should be forced to conduct marriage cerimonies.

Political detainees deserve some rights, but as prisoners of war they do not have Constitutional rights. They do have the right to not be torchered and to be treated fairly and tried in a military court. The truth of war is that at the time of the invasion of Iraq I believe all our government officials believed Iraq had weapons of mass distruction. Intellegence from many contries confirmed our intellegence. This has so far turned out to be bad intelligence. Not a lie.

I believe we are well protected. I know we could be doing more. As Americans we need to flood our representatives offices with e-mail, mail, and phone calls demanding a more proactive approach to national security.

I do not feel lonely. There is no nation in the world that hates the United States. They admire us. There are groups of people who hate the American way of life and are bent on destroying this way of life.

I wish you could get to know me. I voted for a man who started a war in Iraq because he looked at the evidence and thought they were a threat to the United States. Not against the wishes of the entire world, but against the wishes of France, Germany, and Russian who were all profiting from dealing with Iraq’s corrupt government.

I believe I can say that most pepole in the world are peace loving people. I am in the military and I pray for peace every day. I am pretty sure President Bush would much rather be a President of Peace. That choice was not made by him it was made by so fanatical people living in caves. I voted for a man who sees the best way to win a war is by fighting it as far away from home as possible. I would much rather go overseas and fight for my country than to see the terrorist running throughout the United States creating more destruction like September 11th. President Bush has no power over who people want to love, he has no control over doctors ability to cure patients, and women are in control of their destinies.

I do not believe Bush lied. We have been diplomatic with Iraq for over 12 years and they have never cooperated. All they had to do was show the inspectors what happened to the weapons of mass destruction. We know they had them at one time. Because we sold it to them and they have used them.

I am sorry that you feel fear every day. I am on the front lines of defense. I want you to feel at peace. I wish there was more I could do to make America safer. I want you to know that there are thousand of men and women in the armed forces with your protection on our mind every day we are awake. We have answered the call of our country and voluteered to serve you. I will take the blame if something happens to you.

I hope and pray for your protection and that your life will be a joyful life, that no political system or terrorist can dampen your joy.

Even after writting this letter I still do not know you and you still do not know me. But I hope you can see a little more of my point of view. It would be nice to meet and get to talk more about this.

I wish you the very best and may nothing but peacfull follow you.

[cpa]

190. Response

First and foremost, let me thank you for your service to this country. All of us support the men and women in uniform who are serving our country and risking their lives. It is the civilian people in charge who are the problem.
Now, let's disagree. Even accepting your premise about abortion, why is voting for Bush protecting the unborn? You have had him as President and the Republican Congress for a long time and people still tell me abotions are increasing. I believe if you think about this, you will have to conclude that politicans have nothing to do with the number of abortions. Likewise, gay marriage. First, Sen. Kerry, who served in a war whereas Bush was in the national Guard, was also against gay marriage. This should not have been a major factor in deciding between the two men.
Since you are in the military, I realize you must be loyal to your commander in chief. However, he has made some grave errors. First, he failed to heed the warning signs that would have prevented 9/11 in a manner similar to how the attack on LAX was thwarted in 2000. Second, the war is not being fought completely over there. The anthrax killings occurred here. That is a propaganda line used to justify a poor decision. Everyone acknowledges the terrorists could strike here again. Third, even if you agreed with Bush, it was a poor decision to invade Iraq because: a) Bush had no plan to win the peace; b) the task in Afghanistan was not completed when he invaded Iraq and, as a direct result of this, between 4-8 Americans were killed in an Al Qaeda attack in the Gulf of Aden; c) Iraq was not an imminent threat that required action at this time; d) Bush has our military stretched too thin and, as a result, all troops do not have enough strength; e) Bush has gotten us into a guerilla war in which our financial strength is slowly being sapped; f) Bush is losing the war badly for the hearts and minds of the Arab people. If an incident occurs where an American abuses an Islamic woman, look out.
I am not as understanding as you are in giving Bush the benefit of the doubt on certain matters. I think he is running the war poorly and that, like President Lincoln used to do with generals, it was time to change commanders.
I appreciate your dedication to defending the U. S. and its people and commend you for your willingness to take responsibility for the effects of your vote. A lot of Bush voters want a free pass. I would rather that nothing tragic occurs in the future.
I hope all of you can finish your job and get home as soon as possible. Once again, even though I think you made a poor decision in voting for Bush, I want to wish you the best and want to express my gratitude to you for defending our country.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

193. Facts

Corrections:
Adult stem cells are not pluripotent, or able to develop into all or nearly all tissues of the body, thus limiting their potential as opposed to embryonic. (Even the White House acknowledges this http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010809-1.html)

When did the gay marriage debate ever mention forcing churches to marry anyone? The fight is for the government to recognize the marriage or union (if you are protective over the word) and give the benefits as you support. There has been no discussion of making churches do anything. Although there are religions that do recognize and preside overt same-sex unions, the center is making the government and courts recognize the act. Freedom of Religion will remain intact for those who already have it but will also be extended to those who don't currently enjoy the freedom.

[Nederland]

192. I just sent this off

to my evangelical brother inlaw. I'm Curious to see how he responds...

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dukkha]

195. and when are you enlisting?

Thought so.
another chickenshit coward.

You bore me. Buh Bye.:boring:

[A_Soldier]

197. He is

Just so you know, admhays is an enlisted soldier in the Army and a friend of mine.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

198. I don't think my life is bad

but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been better, and I didn't know thoughts were diretly correlated to the number of times I've been shot at (2). Using that logic my friends in the inner city should be given more weight in their thoughts. Your life would be better if not for the rush to Iraq, as would 99% of America's. You hit the problem on the head in saying there are not enough people to cover the ground in Iraq and that is due to yet another failure of Bush at international diplomacy (Kyoto, IBM Treaty, etc.). Your life would be better if your future had not been mortgaged to give a handout to the rich, countless lives would be better if corporate responsibility (Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, etc.) was as much a priority for this administration as personal resonsibility rather than addressing the matter through a symbolic gesture, i.e. Martha Stewart. I won't apologize for supporting a man who at least showed up when his country called rather than hiding behind his dad in Texas then Alabama. I don't know of Kerry's out right lies, but at least with him I knew my candidate had a functional grasp of the issues rather than being led around by Nixon cronies. Why don't you bring up that fact that he voted for funding before votng against? Do you realize why that is? Republicans voted against the funding before voting for it. I wish you the best and thank you for your service, but I am troubled by your arguments.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

199. "FOX...won't show you the good things that happen there"???

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Considering that FOX News was the biggest cheerleader news channlel for the war, your statement makes no sense. Since you've said that Fox won't cover the good th
Cripes. Kerry voted to make cuts to the budget THAT DICK CHENEY APPROVED OF WHEN HE WAS SEC'Y OF DEFENSE!!!!!
THESE ARE THE SAME GODDAMN CUTS THAT CHENEY WANTED!
Bush LIED about the WMDs. He LIED about Iraq's involvement with al Quaeda. He LIED about the threat of Iraq to the American people!
And 1,200 soldiers, 1,200 good people, have DIED BECAUSE BUSH WANTED THIS FUCKING WAR!!!
I pity you.

[Deep N RedLand]

201. Blue State vs. Red State...We're All Screwed.

This letter and topic has really hit close for me. Except for the living in New York with fear part, it puts into words the frustration, anger and bafflement I have been feeling for the last few weeks. Stuck in a red(neck)state for the past 14 years, I can only imagine the worry big city Blues must be going through being a bigger target now that King George's "hit them now because they MIGHT be a threat in the undetermined future" policy has brough ten times more radicals out of the woodwork.

Though if you believe all the media hype and the local sheriffs' begging for more toys for "homeland security" you would think we are the next biggest target. In the past few years people here have actually believed that after attacking symbols of financial and military power the next hit will be on the Epcot ball or Shamu.
It is frustrating to know that many of the workers in this state are working poor, many slaving in at least two jobs(many part-time) for service wages with unaffortable or no medical. Yet they voted against thier own interests and welfare and that of thier families out of media distortion, fear, hate of "them damn gays" or ignorance of the issues. Of course these are the same people who voted for King George's pumpkin head brother twice now who also has done nothing but cut social services for the poor, allowed urban spawl, distastfully fought to allow a brain-damaged woman to suffer, tried to appeal to the anti-choice crowd by exploiting a pregnant retarded woman who was raped and tricking the voters into repealing an alternative transportation amendment that would have helped our frustrating traffic problem.

All this, combined with living through four recent hurricanes has been stressful and the latest election results has pushed many liberals here to the edge of frustration and gave me new incentive to really think seroiusly about moving back to blue Pennsylvania. So why I can't indentify directly with the fear a New Yorker might have, trust me when I say we all have to live with the decision of others in many other ways and as a man once vilified by the Right said,"I feel your pain".

Also thanks to CPA for pointing out the the overlooked fact that both Bush and Kerry said they didn't personally approve of gay marriage. Most gay-hating Bush voters it seems missed this and you would be suprised the number of distortions I saw from the Right and fundies that claimed Kerry wanted to FEDERALLY legalize gay marriage and if Bush didn't win there would also be rampant polygamy, people marrying pets, etc. While this was the one issue I wish Kerry would have been more liberal on, at least he felt it should be left to the states regardless of his personal feelings unlike the homophobe righties who supported a total ban via constitutional restrictions. Might as well repeal the admendments for minority and woman voters too and bring back prohibition (you just know that's thier ultimate goal).

At least it's good to know I'm not alone and regardless of living in a Blue or Red state and with half the country gone nutball, as my bumper sticker says "Hey Bush, 48% of us STILL hate you!"

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

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