What do the Ukranians have that we don't?

[genius]

I don't understand why they are out in the street and stopping the government and we are not. There's more evidence of fraud here than there. What are we made of? Don't we care about saving our country and the world?

[billyoc]

1. I don't want to sound vulgar,

but the Ukrainians give a fuck.

That makes all the difference.

[genius]

5. If we don't do as they are doing, we deserve all that is coming.

This country has the ability to destroy all life on Earth and, by doing nothing, we are showing our support for the stolen election. Everyone who opposes Bush should be out there demanding his ouster.

[billyoc]

12. Exactly, but "Desperate Housewives" is on,

followed by "Survivor Vanatu" and "The Apprentice". Those savages in the Ukraine probably don't even have cable. ;)

[Robeson]

30. And don't forget "A Special Everybody Loves Raymond"!

[goodboy]

37. I want to sound vulgar: BALLZ! (eom)

[tk2kewl]

2. Its probably more like what they DON'T have that we DO have

Why get up in arms when you've got 900 channels on TV, a great sale to go to after Thanksgiving, a BMW in the driveway.

You get the idea. It's much easier to be outraged when you aren't sedated by infomercials, et al.

[Cha]

39. Exactly! Like someone said.."The Urkanians

make the Americans look sedated"!

[tjdee]

3. No. We don't like fighting. Unless it's taking place far, far away.

We don't give a fuck and would rather watch our big screen tvs and eat our 28 pound turkeys.

Plus, they have an opposition LEADER.

I don't think we have one of those.

[knowbody0]

4. revolution is in their blood

[insane_cratic_gal]

42. it was once our blood too

wonder what happened to that?

[Lucky Luciano]

6. Well, what do you know about the evidence over there?

I mean I hear what you are saying, but by all accounts, from what I have heard, the Ukrainian election was ridiculously fraudulent. Massixe differences between exit polling and results...people being trucked around to multiple districts to vote multiple times...all kinds of stuff...the extent of it was probably much bigger and changed the results by a large percentage, whereas here the percentage was probably smaller, but equally crucial.

[genius]

9. They are basing it on exit polls. The exit polls show Kerry won

We actually have a stronger case because of all the disenfranchisments and shut-downs than they do.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. And your point is......?

"I mean I hear what you are saying, but by all accounts, from what I have heard, the Ukrainian election was ridiculously fraudulent. Massive differences between exit polling and results"


As opposed to what we had here in the US????????????????

[Lucky Luciano]

16. I am not saying fraud did not happen here,

but I am saying that the fraud in the Ukraine was probably way more widespread. I also found it odd taht the OP, who probably has not been to the Ukraine ever could make such a bold statement that the Ukrainian election was less fraudulent than ours - that is kind of hard to evaluate from over here, don't you think.

But yes, b*sh most likely stole this election. I would love for a piece of hard evidence to come up so we could fry his ass and cook him like yesterday's turkey.

[robbedvoter]

25. Massive differences between exit polls and results...like these ya mean?

[liberal N proud]

7. It's what we have that they don't - Life too easy

When things finally go to hell here in the usa, then we will see uprisings again. But right now everyone is too content to sit inside their little home and say Yeah, I am mad about the eleciton but we will just have to do more next time.
I don't think people realize the danger that there may never be a next time with this group in charge.
They will now have free reign to change the laws to help them and fix election after election until the people are fed up to the point they will do something about it.

I sit here and wonder how far will they push before we start pushing back?

[tk2kewl]

10. great minds think alike

:toast:

[MatrixEscape]

8. Balls?

[Warpy]

11. They have a small country where word of mouth and handbills

can take over when the official press fails to report the real news.

We're going to have to hope indie media are allowed to grow here and provide a viable alternative to the corporate hacks who are ruining this country.

[anakie]

17. it is not exactly a small country

population of 50 million in a country the size of Texas.

[SmokingJacket]

13. We are f*ing Complacent

Americans don't want to risk their comfort for anything. I betcha that a goodly portion of Americans would not mind if Bush stole the election, as long as he cut their taxes and the malls stayed open.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Americans -- even a lot of Democrats -- would prefer to have a falsely elected leader than to risk the stock market crashing, or to have to get off their butts and carrying a big sign.

Sounds cynical, but I'm just calling it as I see it after venturing into the suburban wilderness during Thanksgiving.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Suburban wilderness is right

Every relative I have in the world lives in the suburbs, and when I visit them, I feel as if I'm going to an alien planet where everyone's brain is wired differently.

[Coventina]

15. Memories of totalitarianism

It'll take a full-blown case of totalitarianism here to get people to wake up.

[VivaKerry]

18. They have a memory of the USSR.

The USA? Oh, we think our bread has always been buttered on both sides, and always will be. No matter what.

[Monkie]

19. for one thing..

the Ukrainian opposition has the FULL support of the government of the USA ;) (hint-hint)

i'm suspicious of huge spontaneous demonstrations,the opposition must have organized to get the people on the street.

[newyawker99]

22. Hi Monkie!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Monkie]

28. thks and strange US involvement in Ukraine

thanks for the welcome :)
i'm a european "liberal" so my replies have a timezone difference.

i think this puts a interesting perspective on the exit poll/votefraud issue:
from the UK paper www.guardian.co.uk

"the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the TWO big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box."

"The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1360080,00.html

[xerox]

20. good vodka!

[LisaL]

21. We are hypnotized by material goods.

[ridgerunner]

23. The support of the police

I watched the news yesterday and the police support the people. If we tried to do what they are doing we'd all get the shit beat out of us by the brownshirts.

[robbedvoter]

24. A leader?

Also, some media soon as one of their government station is rebelling.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1390829
But for styarters, a candidate with cojones.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. There are enough wingnuts here to have made the election close

Even here in Minnesota, the suburbs had 50-50 Bush vs. Kerry yard signs, and the rural areas went for Bush.

For the average voter, the kind who wakes up once every four years to vote for the candidate s/he would rather have a beer with, this makes a Bush victory plausible.

I don't know about the Ukraine, but it's possible that the incumbent was SO unpopular that no one knew ANYONE who had voted for him.

Besides, the Ukrainians probably appreciate their electoral system more than we do, since they were under one-party rule for over seventy years.

[robbedvoter]

32. Dunno about your suburbs, but I never met anyone who voted W

nor did I see W signs. But then again, I live in NYC, the place Osama likes to bomb. And please tell me who are the extra 11 million voters W got - beyond his 2000 ones? And why these exit polls discrepancies? (Lougar, powell said exit polls count)

[RandomUser]

29. A thirst for freedom and an all too recent recollection of its dearth

We've become complacent in America, with voter apathy.

[The Flaming Red Head]

31. Real leadership that's worth a fuck

[the_outsider]

33. Immediate fear

In the rest of the world, governments which are weak, corrupt and are sold out to multinational corporations and foreign interests spell immediate danger to the population. USA's global economic-military empire cushions the Americans a lot. People who suffer the most from US governments don't live in this country and cannot vote.
As global polls showed, * would have got about 20% vote if everyone in the world voted. That sounds about right if every voter votes for his or her own interest.

However, most Americans can still afford to ignore the consequences of * policies. Very few actually benefit from those, but a large number of them mistakenly dreams to benefit from them. Very few Americans are oil/defense/pharma execs, but a lot of Americans have their assets tied to stock markets. The assets are minuscule and dwindling, but their dreams are not. The economic threat is not immediate and strong enough to force them into action. It's not even as threatening as Arabian fantasies or two men french kissing.

[info being]

34. No anti-depressants, less corporatism. They can still think.

[w4rma]

35. Apparantly they have a media that is no longer willing to lie (nt)

[crispini]

36. They have a LEADER.

Their opposition candidate called for them all to be in the streets. So they did.

I'll bet you a hundred dollars that if John Kerry got up tomorrow and told us that the election was stolen, here's how, and called for a march, there would be marchers in every city in the United States the next day.

[KitSileya]

38. My first (evil, uncharitable) thought when I read this headline was,

backbone. I'm sorry, even I who frequent this message board practically every day, who read the stories of those of you working hard to change the status quo, found myself embittered enough by Nov 2 to blame all Americans for the work of 65% of you (Bush voters, and non-voters who weren't disenfranchised).

What Ukrainians don't have and that most Americans do have, is complacency and narcissism.

[fortyfeetunder]

40. Revolution and civil war is sooooooo 19th century!

The last time we fought internally over something politically significant was the Civil War.

[Donna Zen]

41. WWRD?

With or without evidence, what would the republicans be doing right now? Would Rove have just left for a European vacation? Would the various levels of republican leadership having passed out the teacups just told the rank and file to "get over it"?

I don't know what you think, and although this is hypothetical since we will never know for sure, but I believe based on past actions that the republicans would currently engaged in a total media blitz with associated law suits. All of which would have been part of a concerted: we won and damit, we will stand up for the voice of the people. It is God's will that we do so.

The Ukrainians are fighting--and so is their leadership.