Newsweek: Can Howard Dean Save the Democrats?

[Thrill]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6589853/site/newsweek/

[Old and In the Way]

1. No, but voter verifiable paper ballots can.

What a BS headline.

[MuseRider]

2. Beat me to it. n/t

[AntiCoup2K4]

95. While you are absolutely correct about the paper ballots...

The DLC appeasement crowd was dragging this party down long before Wally O Dell and his buddy Uncle Tom Blackwell took over the electoral system.

So if you want to be completely accurate, Howard Dean AND verifiable paper ballots can save this party. And this country.

[Old and In the Way]

148. My point is, no Democrat can win until our votes count.

I don't see how any candidate can beat a system that's gamed against us.

[bklyncowgirl]

157. Dean floated a petition calling for a paper trail during the campeign.

I remember he presented it to congressman Rush Holt.

[Truman01]

165. I'll kick that answer

I think paper trails on voting machines are a no brainer and I don't understand the resistance at all. Any resistance to that idea makes you assume someone is up to no good.

TC

:kick:

[arizuma]

3. No-NOT DEAN-EVER!

Too far to the Right!

[Eric J in MN]

20. Dennis Kucinich isn't a candidate for DNC Chair.

I think Howard Dean is as far to the left as we're going to get in 2005 for DNC Chair.

[Southsideirish]

47. "Yes - DEAN is our ONLY HOPE!"

[calimary]

144. It sure would be a good start.

But then again, I always did like Dean best. I switched over to Kerry and gave it/him my all. But Dean was ALWAYS Number One.

I don't care if people say he's too radical or he's this or he's that or he screamed too much and freaked people out.

Screw it! WHO ELSE gave our pathetic pansy party a good swift kick in the rear-end? WHO ELSE gave the Democrats a backbone transplant? Was any other doctor in the house? WHO ELSE gave us all a big jump-start, and made heads turn from coast to coast with his fundraising power?

Can't we at least consider a STARTING POINT?

Dean's the one. At least for me. He always has been, and he always will be.

[okieinpain]

159. I agree.

[okieinpain]

158. oh geez.

[Selatius]

4. Not if the DLC can destroy him as a viable alternative

[janx]

69. The DLC is starting to lose on some fronts.

For instance, Obama would have nothing to do with them.

[Sparkly]

5. I do think he'd be great as head of the DNC

But I didn't like this comment in the article:

Deciding to lead the party would probably take Dean out of the running for the ’08 nomination. Maybe that’s why the Clintons are quietly pulling for Dean. He would be one less party favorite for Hillary to dispose of.

It seems like pundits use every opportunity to get in a line about the Clintons' plotting stealthily behind the scenes for Hillary to run.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

7. Imagine what the media's lives would be like...

If The Dawgs never existed.

Such barren landscapes of having to really report the news...

[autorank]

11. Hillary, the Diane Feinstein of the East. No way...fugedaboudit

Let the Clinton's do what they want. Hillary's Senate record is pro-war. Any pro-war DEMS are toast when this fiasco falls apart.

CLARK IN 2008 with Dean's energy behind a Democratic revitalization!

[retread]

13. "..quietly pulling for Dean?" So the authors are mind readers?

*

[Rose Siding]

6. "...Clintons are quietly pulling for Dean"

Serve us right if he told us to shove it. He's doing important work with DFA and can clean himself up by '08 at least as easily as any other likely dem.

[Cha]

9. I thought this was interesting if true..

I don't believe anything I read until proven.

"Dean is talking to a lot of people, and what he’s telling them is that if a consensus African-American or minority candidate emerged, he would not seek the job. Clinton Labor Secretary Alexis Herman’s name surfaced, but she said she wasn’t interested, and so far nobody else has assumed the mantle."

[janx]

82. Ah, more gossip...

I have forgotten about the cable channels, I guess.

[retread]

15. If the authors fail as writers they have fall-back careers as

mind readers!

[janx]

83. Yep.

More gossip.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. uhuh

Signing legislation legalizing civil unions is the only outsized liberal thing he did, and he did it reluctantly in a compromise forced by court action.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. How's This?

Dean or anybody who takes the job should be judged strictly by performance...

If we pick up seats in the midterm that person stays....

If we lose seats that person is told don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya....


The party needs to be run like a business with the emphasis on the bottom line...

[okieinpain]

160. good idea.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

161. It Should Be One Failed Election Cycle And You're Out...

If we had supermajorities in Congress like in the 70's I'd give the leader more time but each election for us in now critical...

[catbert836]

12. I hope he can

but as DNC chair, not presidential nominee. This has to be the end of Northeastern liberals for a while. So no to Dean, Kerry, Rendell, Hillary, and anyone else from the NE who's a liberal.
Mark Warner for President!

[madfloridian]

14. Hilary is from Arkansas.

Hilary is not liberal.

I see the light now. Praise the Lord...we need a Southerner who is a preacher type with all the right morals.

:silly:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Hillary Is No More From Arkansas Than Papa Bush Was From Texas....

[madfloridian]

17. She was born in Chicago, I think....moved to Ark. in the early/mid 70s

Could she be a wee bit Southern, you think? Could be be a wee bit from Arkansas?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. No .... There Is Nothing Remotely Southern About Hillary Clinton

on edit-unless having sex with a southerner makes you a southerner Hillary is not a southerner...

[madfloridian]

27. Ok.

.

[janx]

74. Not likely. But she IS midwestern. That's one of the things

I admire about her; she has been around.

[lojasmo]

38. Dean isn't a liberal either.

[iwantmycountryback]

132. Actually I think she was born in Illinois

And the fact that she's a senator from NY might give some people the impression she's a northeasterner. (Which is great in my book)

[welshTerrier2]

18. Warner's position on Iraq ??

do you have any idea what Warner's position has been on Iraq?

btw, if the dems run an Iraq war supporter, they won't be getting my help or my money ...

[Skink]

22. I'm pulling for Dean

I'm biased of course but this time his supporters may just leave and that's a pretty big electorate. I think he would be more effective reshaping and fundraising for the party but if he doesn't get it I hope he does run again. Especially if Vilsack runs and renders Iowa moot. No one else will campaign in Iowa, Howard will do well, and then N.H. will have all the power.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Would he pull the party to the left or to the right?

I'm confused as I look at his background. Is he a conservative progressive? Do people like his passion, regardless of whether they agree with his stances?

Is the war the only thing that made him look like a lefty to people? That and his vote on the gay issue. Or is he too complex for just one look?

He has me confused.

[Skink]

23. He's a centrist.

His record as Governor is very similar to Clinton's record as Governor. They both balanced budgets for ten years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Most Governors Have To Balance Their Budget (nt)

They lack the mechanism to monetarize their debt...

[AP]

33. Did VT? Did VT have to balance budget by shifing property tax burden from

rich too poor? In VT while Dean was Governor, property tax became gradually more regressive. I think it was sometimes like 7 times as burdensome for the bottom quintile as it was for the top quintile.

[quaker bill]

116. Sorry, this myth has been busted

January 6, 1995
DEAN APPEALS FOR UNITY

Gov. Howard Dean began his second full term Thursday, urging lawmakers to pass his property tax reforms...

Dean told them property tax reform is essential, but so are changes in Vermont classrooms.

''Education reform is at the top of the agenda. Our property tax system is unfair. There is tremendous disparity between town tax rates. The high cost of education and property taxes hurts retired people and everyone else on fixed income,'' he said.

But he added, ''Quality of education is also an issue. The people of Vermont don't believe that they're getting their money's worth from our schools.''

Dean told the audience he would propose a $1 million investment in computers so every Vermont school can be linked to the electronic network called Internet. He will also ask for money to put satellite dishes at 20 Vermont schools so their students can take courses offered by the University of Vermont.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/95inaug.htm

Dean proposes tax fairness while investing in public schools to reduce class size and improve technology. Doesn't match your description very well.

[AP]

140. I remember a chart showing that at the end of Dean's tenure...

...the effective rate of property tax was .7% for the top quintile, and for the bottom quintile it was 4.2% and that effective rate on the top quintile dropped throughout his time as governor.

So whatever he was doing as governor took a lot of pressure on the top income earners to pay property tax.

I never saw anyone refute even the experts on Vermont law never explained what was happening.

I suspect that it was because large corporations -- the richest citizens in VT -- were getting property tax breaks.

[AP]

25. On taxes and deficit spending, to the right. On what issues would he pull

the party to the left?

[LittleClarkie]

26. I guess that's the confusing part

Why do so many progressives love him and call for him to save the party? They would seem to be the same people who say they don't want the party to move any more to the right. So I'm confused.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Folks Like His Tude...

nt

[AP]

30. ...but can attitude have a political persuassion? You can be against...

...Republicans in a generat attitudinal sense, but want I want to see is liberal policy: progressive taxation, protecting the value of labor, deficity spending during times of trouble, an education policy which doesn't give banks a huge cut of the cost of America educating itself (ie, Edwards's education plan rather than Dean's, which was a profit-guaranty strategy for Wall St).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Won't Get That From Dean...

He's a quite conventional politician except for the tude...


His advocates like him because he isn't afraid to bash Republicans.....


If bashing Republicans is a winning electoral strategy I'm for it...


If it's a losing electoral strategy I'm against it...


Ultimately politics is about winning elections not cataharis....

[AP]

37. I think it helps Republicans two-fold.

One way it helps Republicans is because so long as all you're doing is bashing Republicans you're NOT educating the public about why progressive taxation is important and why it'd be better to reduce the amount of debt (including student loans) people are taking out.

The second way it helps is that it just doesn't work. Like LBJ said, you can't win by telling people what you're against. You have to tell them what you're for.

If I were a Republican, I'd love running against someone who spent all their time swinging away at me and not time telling people why their policies are better than mine.

[LittleClarkie]

41. Even if you were a Democrat

Ask Bob Dole.

ABB is not enough.

[janx]

70. DSB, I think it's time we called out the Republicans.

Don't you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

162. I Am For Any Strategy That Defeats Pugs(nt)

but sometimes a revenge is a dish best served cold....

[JohnKleeb]

29. its always confused me personally but as DSB said,

and as that guy I think Brody plays in Summer of Sam, its all about the attiude.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. that's a weird movie...

I think I have seen every Spike Lee movie but Six....

[JohnKleeb]

34. Yeah but it is all about the attiude IMO

If Dean had a different rhetoric/attiude, things would have gone differently for him I think, I am no anaylist but thats my opinion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Xactly....

People liked him cuz he got in Bush's face.....

[JohnKleeb]

40. I myself am more of a person who likes a guy because

of his or her views on the issues, what have you. Getting up in Bush's face is all good and good but post January 20th or whatever, it's your agenda not your predecessor's that makes the difference. I know many will disagree but thats how I feel about that.

[AP]

43. In many ways, Dean had a golden opportunity, then blew it by not backing

up the attention he was getting with solid Democratic principles. I was stunned when I read his education policy (it was basically more loans and more intereste income for Wall St at a time when students are having no problem at all getting loans and getting themselves into debt). And what would have been so hard about him being for progressive taxation or deficit spending in times of economic trouble like every good Democrat since FDR?

In many ways, the guy was a closet Liberterian. Personally, I thought his biography was a mess, but had he simply had a set of policy proposals which were actually liberal and Democratic it would have been much harder for people like me to argue against him. All I would have been left with to argue against hime would have been biography, which is still pretty compelling. But I would not have been happy saying a guy who was for progressive taxation, Keynesian economics, and reducing the debt load for students shouldn't be the nominee.

[JohnKleeb]

44. explain to me the student loans, I am in the dark on that issue

[madfloridian]

46. John, Dean has been attacking Bush about cutting Pell grants forever.

Please read up on it yourself. Don't allow certain people to frame it all about Dean for you.

He has called Bush out on this many times...warning that he was going to cut them. No one paid attention.

[AP]

50. Do you have a link to his education program? He may have...

...criticized killing the Pell GRANT program, but his own Education plan was about creating more LOANS.

That's why it's important to have liberal policy to back up your attitude, which I don't think Dean had.

[AP]

49. Dean's education plan was basically more student loans.

I forget the specifics of it, but it was a federally gauranteed loan program. Not a GRANT program. A loan program. It suspended payment if you were poor but not the accumulation of interst, or something like that.

Meanwhile, Edwards was proposing one year free tuition at public schools (paid by Fed Gov't) if you did 10 hours a week of public service. So, Edwards would have reduced the amount you would have to finance by 25%. Meanwhile, Dean was trying to get you deeper into debt (and, really, nobody has a problem getting a student loan today -- they have a problem paying their loans).

Two things to remember about loans: Wall St banks bundle them and make all the interest profit off them and you can't get rid of them in bankruptcy. They simply guarantee profit for Wall St.

The only liberal education program would be one that reduces the cost of education. Dean didn't care about reducing the cost (like Edwards did). Dean cared about increasing the amount of your education that you would finance -- a big assist to Wall St, where he has his roots.

It was shockingly corporate-friendly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. I Think We Need To Find Good Jobs For Folks Who Aren't Smart Enough To Go

To College...


If anybody can go to college doesn't that make college like the thirteenth grade...

[AP]

58. We need more people getting educated. Nothing magnifies the value of your

labour than an education, no matter what kind of education you get. So people who only have their labor to trade for money, a good education can be worth literally millions of dollars.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. does it...

I see your point...



We are all on the same team in America so if everybody gets smarter we have a better team and are more productive...


But if everybody goes to college what distinguishes a college education from a high school education..

[AP]

133. College & getting hired isn't totally a competition. There should be ...

...enough good jobs for everyone, and education should be an opportunity for people to find what they're good at, learn how to do it, and then get placed in those jobs so they can contribute to society.

You're looking at education the wrong way. It isn't about getting a leg up on someone less fortunate. It's about learning how to do things (like think) well and the getting you out in the world where you can do those things.

[Cheswick2.0]

91. you are just making stuff up

and it is pathetic to continue this attack on Dean. You were all about Edwards, convinced he was the guy but he couldn't even take NC from bush. Maybe you judgement is not all that great.

[AP]

136. It was true when I said it during the primaries and it's true now.

I wasn't making this up when I said it before, and it's important for people to remember these things.

In the PBS-Stanford informed voter survey Edwards was the only candidate who beat Bush. Kerry was only even with Bush and that's how things turned out more or less.

I still think Edwards would have won had he been on the top of the ticket.

[JohnKleeb]

109. I know more about Edwards plans on education

which is was if you worked, you got a free year or so of college, and frankly I was attracted to that.

[AP]

137. Clark and Edwards both had very progressive, liberal education plans which

was expected given where they came from. Clark picked West Point over University of Arkansas because it was more affordable. Edwards had go to his second choice for college and law school because he couldn't take the financial risk the first choice would have created, regardless of loans.

They also both clearly understand what it means for new college graduates to be in debt: it's bad for the economy. It's bad for the middle class.

[JohnKleeb]

138. Yeah I gotta give those two that for sure

A lot of college students are in debt, its really a shame. What was Edwards' first choice for college anyhow, I believe he was a NC State undergrad and went to UNC for law school, or did I flip that? I imagine a lot of people are gonna be surprised to see you giving Clark props, really isn't a surprise for me because Ive seen you do it before.

[AP]

141. His first choice was...

...Clemson. He went there for a year. He was a walk-on on the football team. To save money he lived with his grandmother. After a year he didn't get an athletic scholarship so he transferred to NC State. He couldn't afford to stay at Clemson.

He got into Duke for law school but went to UNC instead, again because he couldn't take the finanical risk.

As for Clark, I give him props where he deserves them. And I have done that consistently. I did it in that old thread and I'm doing here. Thanks for noticing.

[JohnKleeb]

145. Ive seen you give Clark props before

That's interesting about those two, those two must have worked hard because those schools are not easy to get in to.

[madfloridian]

52. John, before you take the Pell grants out on Dean....

do not take AP's word on this, please. Look it up, do a google search, whatever you need to do.

If this was in the Omnibus, then our Dems, 24 of them voted for it, including Hilary.

[AP]

62. I found an old thread.

I stand by my arguments. I think the work requirement was aslo crazy -- it would have driven down wages.

Dean did have some grants in his plan, but it was mostly loans.

[madfloridian]

71. Could you post it here, please?

Thanks. I don't want him criticizing Bush for cutting Pell Grants if he was against them as well. Fair is fair.

Thanks for the link.

[AP]

81. It's in post 61.

[Cheswick2.0]

92. MF, JohKleeb is part of the game these guys are playing

appealing to him will do no good. They are all bitter about the election and taking it out on the only person who is trying to break the losing theories of the status quo.

[madfloridian]

107. But he needs to be appealed to. I know what they are doing.

Sadly, I do. John never used to be part of it.

[AP]

61. Here's an old thread discussing Dean & Clark's education plan (and much...

...to the chagrin of a few people at DU, you'll find me giving a lot of credit to Clark for his liberal education plan).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=80858#87596

[janx]

73. Dean knows that you can't promise everything. There

are limits to what can be done with any amount of money (and we have much less now since Chimpy).

He's only being honest about it.

That's why he did not pretend that instant, single-payer health care was an option, for instance.

[AP]

142. It wasn't like that. He had a choice of picking a plan that would keep

wall st happy or one that would allow wealth to build up in the middle class. He picked the one that Wall St would like. It was more expensive for society.

[Cheswick2.0]

87. I think you are suffering from selective confusion

Centrist on some issues, liberal on social issues. It's really not that confusing.

[janx]

68. Here again, labels get in the way, especially when our political

landscape is shifting so much.

Dean is a fiscal conservative. He is also sane in the "social" sense, meaning that he refuses to play the fundie, theocratical games.

He will not play on that turf, so to speak. He cannot stand it and has called the political fundies pharisees on national television.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. if dean is indeed a fiscal conservative and a social liberal..

why shouldn't I vote libertarian and get everything....


-a 75% cut in the military budget

-gay marriage

-legalized drugs

-legalized prostitution


I thought one of the reasons for voting Democratic is because they want to use the riches capitalism creates to lift up those folks at the margin...

[janx]

103. Being a fiscal conservative and a social liberal

does not necessarily mean one would advocate the points you listed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

153. Exactly....

If a Democrat won't protect and expand the welfare state why should a social liberal vote Democratic...


He should vote vote libertarian and get a undiluted program of civil liberties...

[AP]

149. He wasn't pro-accumulation of wealth among the middle class, and

right now that's what makes one a liberal (check out Dean on taxes, education and deficit spending during times of trouble).

Arnold S. is a social liberal and a fiscal conservative: he's protecting the profits of big corporations and making sure that he can get elected in CA by being a social liberal. Since it's all about money for Republicans, they're willing to give the ground on the social issues.

I'd rather have a Democrat who wants to see the middle class grow.

[AP]

152. The label that is getting in the way is "fiscal conservative/social lib."

If you don't see the tax code as being too regressive today, if you don't want to deficit spend in times of trouble and run surpluses in good times, and if your education plan doesn't focus primarily on grants (rather than tax deductions for more loans), then you're not that much of a liberal. The label I'd have for you is that you don't care that much about seeing wealth accumulate in the middle class, which is the most important thing a Democrat should be caring about today.

[madfloridian]

31. He has other issues that are liberal in nature.

That article is not quite true. He firmly believes that any decisions about a woman's health care should be between her and her doctor. No government involvement.

He was NOT ashamed of the civil unions bill at all. He said he was proud of empowering a segment of society in having their rights.

He has no label. That is why we like him so much. He puts forth practical solutions, and says things in a pragmatic way.

He was a real bug on balanced budgets, but he has changed some views since he went on the campaign trail. He saw the people who were suffering from cuts in the social programs....there is more in the book.

He has no label, really. He wants change in the party and the country, so I guess that would qualify him for being called progressive.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I Have Seen Him Interviewed On The Civil Unions Bill.

He basically said the legislature passed it and he signed it....


It wasn't as if he was the drum major for the civil unions legislation in the way that Johnson was the drum major for the civil rights legislation of the 60's as Eleanor Clift's article suggests...

[madfloridian]

42. Ok

I have seen him interviewed on it, and I have read the book. So we are entitled to different views on all subjects.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I Am Just Saying It's Not Like He Was Like A Dennis Kucininch

or Al Sharpton on GLBT issues but he gets all the props:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/264.htm


Dean signed the bill the next day. He did so behind closed doors, guarded by six police officers, witnessed only by staff members.

[madfloridian]

48. He talks about it in his book.

His life was threatened, he wore a bullet-proof vest.

And wasn't Kucinich against a woman's right to choose at one time?

Tolerance, tolerance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I Just Don't See Dean As a Left Wing Icon

For the love of God he's on record as favoring every American military adventure since the Viet Nam War with the exception of Iraq War 2...


Really.....


Panama?


Grenada?

[madfloridian]

53. He ISN"T a left wing icon! Who said he was?

Goodness gracious. It was the DLC that started this. Do a search on Howard Dean at their site.

www.ndol.org

I know his views. We have followed his campaign for two years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. I'm Not A Big Fan Of The DLC..

They bought the left wing spin sillines...

He's quite a conventional politician except for his attitude...


Folks like him because he gets in the Republican's face...


He is their voice...


I just don't know if that's a winning strategy... That's all...

[madfloridian]

59. That is the point.

It is because he is not concerned about the strategy part that he got the attention of so many. We have been strategized to death, proper talk, not offending.

The day Dean at Yale said that Bush appealed to homophobia, sexism, and racism to win.....he really made points. He made people angry. But he called attention to it. I have Republican friends who liked what he said, as they don't approve of it either. It was our Democrats who were so upset. That is sad to me.

He said it was even worse because Bush was NOT anti- those things, but he used them to divide the country.

Too late, though. I think the proper folks are well in control now.

[PassingFair]

57. Who says we need a left wing icon...

we just need an icon. Kerry was dullsville. Edwards "ma daddy was ah mill worka" was dullsville.
Dean is NOT dullsville

[Cheswick2.0]

94. please stop this assinine game

He spent months promoting the legislation and had to wear a bullet proof vest. He did it, others have not. He stood by what he came to understand was the right thing to do.
I think your baiting bullshit is getting really tired.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

155. dupe

[DemocratSinceBirth]

156. If Ya Don't Like It Don't Read It

Cheswick2.0 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-27-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #45

94. please stop this assinine game


He spent months promoting the legislation and had to wear a bullet proof vest. He did it, others have not. He stood by what he came to understand was the right thing to do.
I think your baiting bullshit is getting really tired.

This is the DU member formerly known as Cheswick.



Talk to Eleanor Clift

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6589853/site/newsweek/


Signing legislation legalizing civil unions is the only outsized liberal thing he did, and he did it reluctantly in a compromise forced by court action. Only a few staffers were present at the signing ceremony, and photographers were banned.

or Cadence Mertz

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/264.htm


Dean signed the bill the next day. He did so behind closed doors, guarded by six police officers, witnessed only by staff members



I think your ad hominem attacks are getting really tired...

kisses,


Brian

[Radical Activist]

67. Dean didn't support a national civil unions law during his campaign

so whatever courage he showed as Governor he lost as a Presidential candidate. He had the same position as Edwards, Kerry and Bush in that regard: that it should be left up to the states. He's certainly not liberal on that issue.

[madfloridian]

72. It SHOULD be left up to the states.

Dean never claimed to be liberal. Who cares, though. Right?

[Radical Activist]

66. He's to the right of Kerry, so he'd keep it in the middle I'd guess

We just had a big thread on that two days ago.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. I don't "get" Dean and never have

To me, he seems like a victory of style over substance. He acts like a radical firebrand, but he's actually very centrist, so there seems to be a disconnect between his style and his actual policies.

It's as if a singer came out on stage looking like a heavy metal rocker and sounding like Andrea Bocelli: wild and crazy image, middle-of-the-road substance.

I think a lot of people are almost fanatically devoted to him because he embodies their anger against Bush.

However, we need to go beyond that, promote policies that will actually help what ails this country, and find a candidate who can convey them to a broad spectrum of people.

I think Dean would be a fine DNC chair. I'm not crazy about him as a candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. your answer is above you...

Dean reminded me of Billy Idol....


The attitude is salient...

[janx]

76. If you see a disconnect between his style and his policies,

then I think you have been taking in too much popular mass media. I'm serious about this.

This guy is ahead of his time, especially given the enormous political shifts our country is experiencing. I mean this very genuinely. He is looking at the history of our country and trying to keep neo-con, religious fundamentalist extremists away from the controls.

I've watched his progress since 2002, and I am convinced that he is absolutely driven to do this.

[Cha]

86. I and the people I know ,personally, like Dean

because he calls it as he sees it. And we like how he sees it. He worked his butt off to help Kerry and get other candidates elected from a grassroots level.

We're an eclectic bunch..I wouldn't try to categorize us.

" One of the two new Democratic United States senators was a "Dean Dozen" candidate--Barack Obama (D-Ill.). Obama and the other new Democratic senator, Ken Salazar (D-Colo.), received contributions from DFA.

• One "Dean Dozen" candidate won her race for Congress, Allyson Schwartz (D-PA) and DFA contributed to five of the fourteen incoming freshman Democratic Members of Congress.

• Some of the notable non-federal success stories include:

• Both of the new Democratic governors are "Dean Dozen" candidates: John Lynch (D-NH) and Brian Schweitzer (D-Mont.)

• Two "Dean Dozen" candidates won their mayoral race: Peter Corroon was elected as mayor of Salt Lake County, Utah and Tom Potter was elected as mayor of Portland, Ore.

• Democracy for America contributed more than $600,000 to 634 candidates for non-federal office. 319 of those candidates won--a 50% win-loss record.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

[Cheswick2.0]

97. I don't get DK and never did

to me he seems like a very odd little authoritarian lefty who voted for some really bizarre right wing legislation. Women are still paying for his votes on choice.
I'd prefer that he not even be in congress if he is going to vote for legislation to try children as young as 13 as adilts.

[janx]

114. And let us not forget the vote-swapping in Iowa.

Dennis was part of the team.

[McGonigle]

147. Vote swapping...

...for Edwards of all people.

Edwards creeps me out, and Kucinich creeps me out.

Together, they creep me out even more than either alone.

[eridani]

151. It's his attitude towards party building that would make him a good chair

Dean was actually pretty wooly about specifics during his campaign. "You have the power" essentially said "Everybody participate more, and we'll work out the details later." For a candidate, I wanted the specifics of Kucinich, but for making the party better, more participation, whenever and however, is the ticket.

[RegexReader]

163. haven't either

but would give him a try at the DNC chair.


RegexReader
$USA =~ s/Republican/Democrat/ig;

[madfloridian]

63. This is turning into an anti-Dean thread. I leave it to you.

I know it will go on a long time. Tired of fighting. I wish it would be locked, but I doubt it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Why Lock It...

I don't think there have been any ad hominem attacks on him just a critical review of his record...



I think the argument that what distinguishes Dean from other Democrats is not the substance of his positions but his style....

[janx]

80. I agree. Don't lock it.

We have to hash this out sooner or later.

Some Dems are very anxious when it comes to Dean. I've never been able to figure out why. There is no reason for them to feel that way; I've been following Dean since 2002 or so, and there are others (many of whom are in the LBGT community or who have lived in/around Vermont) who have been keeping track of his record for a much longer time.

WHY are people anxious about the guy? He suggested DFA, an organization that is literally feeding and nurturing the Democratic party.

I wish I knew why some Dems have the reactions toward him that they do.

[madfloridian]

90. Good thoughts, janx.

He is passionate about the party and his country, so why the fear?

[janx]

102. I still cannot figure it out! n/t

[shesemsmom]

77. NO NO NO

a thousand times no. We'd be on the bottom looking up for sure

[Radical Activist]

78. If we need an economic populist who can win the south and midwest

by shifting the debate to economic issues, then no Dean can't save the party. He's a moderate, economic conservative millionaire from New England. That sounds like the opposite of what we need to appeal to voters in red states. Maybe he could do good things as DNC chair but he doesn't need to be the face of the party.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. maybe man isn't homo economicus

and will vote against his economic interest...


Lots of folks vote their cultural interest....


That's why you have so many rich folks pulling the Democratic lever and so many poor folks pulling the Republican lever...

[Radical Activist]

84. Of course people will vote cultural morality issues when

we don't engage them with economic issues in a meaningful way. We're letting Republicans control the debate, and when the election is about culture issues, they win.

[Skink]

85. Check this out

www.democracyforamerica.com

Is any other Democrat in the running for DNC chair putting up results like these.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. I'm Impressed

Pete Salazar and Barack Obama owe their electoral success to Howard Dean...

[Radical Activist]

96. Oh give me a break

there are a lot of reasons Barack Obama won, but Howard Dean was NOT one of them. Did Dean even make the endorsement before the Democratic primary in Illinois?

[madfloridian]

A lot of former Dean leaders worked on these campaigns.

And Brian Schweitzer ran a very clever campaign, took a lot of clues from Dean....Peter Corroon in Utah as well...tough campaign.

[Radical Activist]

108. I'm sure DFA did a lot

but taking credit for Obama's victory is a big stretch.

[janx]

113. We don't take credit for it. But we backed it from the start.

Isn't that good enough?

[madfloridian]

120. He got support from DFA and Kos before the party thought him viable.

That is what grassroots is about.

[janx]

124. It's GREAT!

And Obama is one of the best, especially in the Midwest.

[Cheswick2.0]

115. Oh give me a break

your bias colors everything you say. I remember during the primaries how enraged all the DK people got because other liberals supported Dean and not their candidate. From reading your ATA question the other day I see that you still aren't over it. "Dean is giving non progressives progressive creds" :eyes:

Yes Dean and Obama appeared together before the Primary. Obama was a DFA candidate before anyone else except people in his state were paying attention. He not only got our money, he got our activism. DFA members worked on his primary campaign.

Yes there are many reasons Obama won. A very important reason was DFA.

[dansolo]

164. DFA supported Obama before the IL primary

Democrats who aren't from IL seem to forget that Obama was a major underdog going into the primary. He got very little financial support early on, so the early support he did get was very significant.

[janx]

101. Ken Salazar

Though his brother ran also--and won.

Obama was an original "Dean Dozen" candidate. Don't underestimate the power of raw democracy. That's what we're trying to bring back.

[Cha]

104. They're not saying that so why should

you? Other than to try and marginalize DemocracyForAmerica's work at the grassroots level.

The fascists are taking over America and you are spitting on Howard Dean.

Another poster on another thread asked "why do democrats have to eat their own?"..I said.."that's a good question.."

[janx]

98. DSB, I personally know people who would rather see the

country improve rather than save a few bucks with their million or more. (Too bad I'm not one of them, but I have met them.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. Exactly

janx (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-27-04 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #79

98. DSB, I personally know people who would rather see the country improve rather than save a few bucks with their million or more. (Too bad I'm not one of them, but I have met them.)

DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-27-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #78

79. maybe man isn't homo economicus


and will vote against his economic interest...


Lots of folks vote their cultural interest....


That's why you have so many rich folks pulling the Democratic lever and so many poor folks pulling the Republican lever...


That's exactly what I said janx, please think about this...


Lots of rich folks vote against their econmomic interest because they like the Democratic position on cultural issues and lots of poor folks vote Republican because they like the Republican position on cultural issues...

I'm not making a prescription just suggesting that a populist message isn't going to make people ingnore their cultural values....

[janx]

93. Midwesterners and southwesterners like him.

I'm a native of the former and live in the latter. I live in a "red state," but in part due to the efforts of DFA, our state legislature is now in a Dem majority for the first time in FORTY years!

[Radical Activist]

100. He didn't do so well there

like in Iowa, Wisconsin, South Carolina or Tennessee. He had pretty poor showings in all those states.

[janx]

105. Right. After Kerry had been annointed as the ABB candidate.

And after Kucinich, Geppy, Kerry, and Edwards enjoyed the vote-swapping in Iowa--not to mention the anti-Dean ads from not only Republicans, but Dems.

Politics-------------- slime!

[madfloridian]

128. Dean led the DLC poll in SC. Amazing, huh. Shocked the DLC , too.

Just to be fair here. The New England yankee was leading in SC according to the SCDLC.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/columnists/lee_bandy/7330067.htm
SNIP..."Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean would have the best shot at beating President Bush in 2004, according to an unscientific online survey of moderate South Carolina Democrats.

More than 500 Democratic activists participated in the week-long survey, conducted by the South Carolina Democratic Leadership Council.

The survey — handled completely by e-mail and through the council’s Web site — included numerous questions about the nine presidential candidates and issues.

When asked to name the candidate with the best chance of beating Bush, 33 percent chose Dean, followed by retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark with 27 percent and U.S. Sen. John Edwards with 14 percent.

http://www.scdlc.org/content/special/presidential2003/survey
Wesley Clark 71 (14.2%)
Howard Dean 172 (34.4%)
John Edwards 88 (17.6%)
Dick Gephardt 34 (6.8%)
John Kerry 54 (10.8%)
Dennis Kucinich 18 (3.6%)
Joe Lieberman 14 (2.8%)
Carol Moseley - Braun 5 (1.0%)
Al Sharpton 11 (2.2%)
Other 31 (6.2%)

[MuseRider]

111. Sorry

We had people caucus in my district for everyone BUT Dean. They either were not ever in great numbers or they simply stayed home. He was not a hit around here, most of us thought he was a bit of an ass. He would never have carried this state or even done as well as Kerry did and that isn't saying much. Bring up Dean around here and you will get laughed at.

[janx]

112. In what state and when did you caucus?

?

[MuseRider]

118. Kansas

and in my area every Democrat who had dropped out had people there to caucus for them except Dean.

[janx]

122. I'm in Colorado, and I was there to caucus for him,

long after most states got that same opportunity.

Colorado was late in the process.

Of course they didn't caucus for Dean. It was ABB, remember? Our candidate had been chosen for us at that point.

[MuseRider]

123. That is

a bullshit answer. Everyone except Lieberman and Graham (I had forgotten about them in my first post) had people there. We sent Kucinich delegates to the next level. Nobody else was ready to go ABB during the primary process. We were also late in the process. Dean was NOT popular here, he had people but none in my area that even cared to go as far as the caucus. He lost any credibility when he made that stupid comment about "us rural people". The laughter around here was deafening. It went from there to worse so when you decide to tell people just how popular he was in the Midwest you might want to look at his results first and not try to make silly excuses when you get called on it later.

[janx]

125. It is NOT a bullshit answer. And speaking of Kucinich and the

midwest, how do you reconcile his vote swapping in the Iowa primaries?

The guy is a politician, period. That junk, along with his flopping on choice, told me a lot about him. He says a lot about purist themes, but he's completely full of shit.

[MuseRider]

127. I thought this was a thread

about Dean? Very mature response. Come on now. If you can't defend Dean without turning it into an insult about someone else then you probably shouldn't have tried to answer me.

[janx]

129. You brought them up. I recounted history. n/t

[MuseRider]

130. Look

I brought them up in response to you. You were responding about the area I also live in. My experience was different than yours. I am terribly sorry that your guy was not very well thought of where I live. I was responding simply to your position. If you had said "in my state" I would never have involved myself in this thread. If you people really want to know what went wrong and correct things that did not go well then you would not get so defensive so quickly. Sheesh, he is NOT the end all and be all of the world. He is ONE guy who was popular with a small segment of our party. So was my guy, so was Joe fucking Leiberman.

[janx]

131. I don't live in Kansas. n/t

[MuseRider]

134. I know, I read that.

Apparently I am not making myself clear. I re read what I have written and it seems very clear what I meant. I know you live in Colorado but you originally made a blanket statement about Deans popularity in the Midwest and the last time I looked Kansas was smack dab in the middle of that area. Please re read and you will see the trend of our posts. I am going to stop now, this is a total waste of time since you apparently do not want to hear anything other than a blanket approval of Dean. If any of you need later to figure out what is needed to help Dean in any area he did poorly in you may find you have burned those bridges. Just a thought.

[madfloridian]

143. Uh, you don't seem to realize that Dean dropped out Feb. 18.

I have the schedule. There were 37 states, including FL, NY, and CA which never got to vote while he was campaigning. He was out of the race...gone....our votes did not count....in 37 states.

Whatcha think about them apples?

[WI_DEM]

89. Dean would be the best choice, imo

He has passion and beliefs and he would give the party what it needs--a soul.

[w4rma]

99. Dean has the work ethic to do it. (nt)

[janx]

106. Yes, he does. And many of us have the work ethic to help. n/t

[janx]

110. This is some very bad writing:

Party activists around the country are furious at the Washington Democrats for blowing the election. Wresting control away from the entrenched establishment is their goal. Dean would spark a Red State rebellion within the party, but the Heartland’s leading contender, Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, withdrew his name from contention after being shown numbers suggesting Dean would win.

Not only is it hyperbolic in its rhetoric, but it doesn't even make sense.

"Red State Rebellion"?

Bad poet, man.

[Guaranteed]

117. Leadership, leadership, leadership.

I can't say it enough. It's the only thing that will save the Democrats.

They have to stand up, make an argument, show they're not afraid.

[janx]

126. Yeah, I agree. Yet most seem to have to

REACT to "moral values," and REACT to "fear."

Reactionary stuff just doesn't work.

[McGonigle]

150. You must read

"Don't Think of an Elephant."

Everyone must read "Don't think of an Elephant."

It's very short and it cost me 8 bucks.

Amazing stuff.

Very very very different thinking.... which is what we need.

And Howard wrote the preface.

[mattclearing]

146. Leadership

You are so right. That was the main reason why I supported Dean in the primaries. He pointed out the divisions that the Republicans were trying to exploit and tried to pre-empt them. I'm still not convinced he wouldn't have been a better candidate than Kerry was. At least he knew about the voting machines.

He did kinda blow it on the PR leading up to that "scream" speech, though. I thought he was going to go hard moderate after taking the big lead. He easily could have had the nomination.

I think he would make a fine chairman, and it gives him more power than he would have had at DFA.

[quaker bill]

119. Being progressive isn't cheap.

If you want good schools, you pay for them. If you want to protect the environment, you pay to put the best folks on the job and you hire as many as you need to get the job done. If you want good services for the poor, the orphaned, and the widowed, you pay taxes.

If you want quality services, you pay taxes. Balancing the budget at any time other than an economic recession is a no brainer. In that I would not put the cost of this week's groceries on my child's tab niether would I put today's governmental operating expenses.

Taking responsibility for your expenses is a progressive position and better yet, it speaks to strong moral values.

[Cheswick2.0]

121. I certainly hope so... the DLC/DNC sure has been busy

desperately trying to make it completely irrelevant.

[janx]

135. I agree with you, Ches. And it's time I got some sleep.

"Good night Irene."

You're great. G'night!

[thedailyshow]

139. No, he can't. But he can help restructure the party

by reactiving the base.