ICKES just said Kerry Was A Weak-Knee'd-Flip Flopping-Liberal

[matcom]

and THAT is why he lost. (CNN)

oh and Ickes wants the job of DNC Chair.

YYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY :eyes:

[GRLMGC]

1. Who is this Ickes person?

I didn't realize he was repeating someone else's message. Nm.

[matcom]

2. Harold

"GOOD" Dem from NY </sarcasm>

[GRLMGC]

13. Oy n/t

[formernaderite]

65. He' s one of Hillary's men....

...and obviously setting the strategy for 08. If they think they won't lose people that currently make up the base, by running to the right....

THEY'RE WRONG!!!

[pmbryant]

3. Anyone repeating slanderous GOP talking points shold be disqualified

Simple rule.

--Peter

[merbex]

9. I agree 100 % n/t

[Straight Shooter]

4. Is name-calling a mandatory qualification for political positions?

Certainly seems to be. Looks like Ickes is wanting attention and has resorted to the sorriest, cheapest method available to get it.

[Cheswick2.0]

40. he is DLC... and wants the job of chairman

for the DNC so that they can consolidate their corporate strangle hold on the democratic party.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. Harold is gonna get a spanking...

I predict.

[merbex]

6. Ickes wants that job soo bad -he can taste it

I felt I was watching and listening to an audition

I'd like to see others audition for that role

[Dickie Flatt]

7. *

[LSparkle]

8. "No DNC chair for YOU!"

[Pirate Smile]

10. He said that was the Bush Campaign's message.

I'm watching IP so I just thought a little clarification for those who didn't actually see what he said might be helpful.

He didn't say that is what he thought.

[Sparkle]

15. Thanks for the clarification.

Apparently the original poster missed that part.

[Pirate Smile]

20. Oh, I figure Matcom got it but I thought other readers who hadn't

actually seen him make the comment might not know the context.

[Leilani]

24. He never said that...

however, I thought he made it clear that was his opinion, also.

[Sparkle]

88. Okay but

Matcom should have specified that Ickes was stating that is what the repukes were saying.

[Old and In the Way]

18. That changes everything.

Hope people pick up on your post.

[pmbryant]

30. Have to disagree

It simply changes the viewpoint from, "Ickes! Why is he backstabbing us with GOP talking points?" to "Ickes! Why is that idiot repeating GOP talking points?"

Not good either way.

--Peter

[Old and In the Way]

36. I honestly don't know the context in which it was said.

But the original post certainly doesn't square with the post I was responding to.

[Kahuna]

27. Thanks for the clarification. He is right. That was the GOP

message. And team Kerry did very little to counter it.

[lancdem]

29. Thanks for pointing that out

Ickes himself is a liberal, BTW, in case anyone doesn't here. But he's also an ass-kicker extraordinaire. During the Clinton administration, the Repukes called him before Congress to testify about some "scandal" (it may have been Whitewater) and he ripped them a new one. Don't mess with Howard.

[JohnKleeb]

11. you dont build a party by eating your own harold

[TheDebbieDee]

25. It's JohnKleeb! Did you know that you are famous?

[JohnKleeb]

32. agh not here in GD now too

god, yeah I know about it.

[DemOperative]

56. I wondered why someone spray painted "Kleeb Rules"

on the Malibu Canyon wall near Pepperdine.

I think I saw his name on a sign in the Ukraine over the weekend too.

[JohnKleeb]

62. in the Ukraine? that would be odd since my connections

to the Ukraine come from my uncle who isn't related to me by blood anyway.

[WI_DEM]

12. Bush is a weak kneed, flip flopping, war mongering asshole

Why didn't he say that?

[Cha]

82. That should be the message that Dems

who have a platform(it's the message I try to convey in my own little platform) ..speak loud and clear. But, the dems are busy eating their own as usual.

[From the south]

14. Makes you wonder

if the former Clinton administration people are trying to distance themselves from Kerry

[Leilani]

16. Ickes praised McCauliffe

for doing such a FINE job, & now the Dems in D.C. have a NEW building!

I thought that new bldg really helped a lot in this last election.

And Ickes is running to make Hillary the candidate.

[Dickie Flatt]

38. To be fair, the new building's facilities really were needed

They might not have helped us this year under McAuliffe's terrible management, but they will come in handy in the future.

[RussBLib]

17. Yeah, so what if it's true?

A Democrat shouldn't say that about another Democrat, right?

I kinda doubt he said it though.

[sangh0]

19. umm

it's not true. Ickes didn't say it. Ickes merely repeated what he said others were saying.

[Leilani]

21. You're right, he didn't say it...

he said the Republicans said it...

but I thought he left the impression that he didn't think Kerry had run an effective campaign, therefore, in essence he was agreeing, however subtlely.

Woodruff asked him if, based on what he was saying, Kerry should forget about 2008. He said, no, that's up to the party & the primaries.

[pmbryant]

22. He's still repeating it.

First rule of framing public debate: never repeat your opponent's talking points!

Breaking such a cardinal rule should disqualify him from consideration for DNC chair.

--Peter

[sangh0]

23. As a fan of Lakoff, I am compelled to agree with that

as a Lakoff fan, I'm sure you'll agree

[pmbryant]

26. Oddly

I haven't read any of his books or articles. But this rule does seem to be the most basic thing to keep in mind.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. EXACTLY

thank you. You do NOT repeat the other side's talking points. Make your OWN talking points that benefit YOUR side, dammit.

GRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrr.

[AP]

79. I think we can make a distinction between repeating

their talking points when we're engage in a debate with Republicans, and pointing out in a post mortem what happened.

It's not going to hurt Democrats for Ickes to say out loud what the Republicans' frame was during the campaign.

Lakoff himself in his articles and books will do just this. He's not afraid to say what the Republicans' message is.

[jean]

37. agree - we love Lakoff in this house and Ickes gets a loud buzzer

and duct tape over his mouth for repeating the bile of the radical right!!!

If he does not grasp this basic idea - heck, you don't even have to read Lakoff for this - isn't it INSTINCTIVE not to validate your enemies???

Would it hurt to email and call the DNC and lambast them over Ickes?

Edit: More on Ickes from PBS/Moyer Interview discussing, among other things the loss of the Congress in 1994:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/scandal/interviews/ickes.html



Long-time labor lawyer and Democratic activist, Ickes served as campaign manager of Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign in New York. In 1994, at the President's urging, he joined the Clinton White House as Deputy Chief of Staff. In that position, Ickes served as the primary White House liaison with the Democratic National Committee during the 1996 campaign. Ickes left his White House post on January 20, 1997 to return to private life.

[Pirate Smile]

46. Well, we need to get a good answer ready for the question he was asked -

Why did Kerry lose?

That was the question he was responding to and it will be poised (and already has been) thousands of more times so we need to get a decent answer that has a slam back at the Republicans for the slimy way they run their campaigns.

[sangh0]

47. Its a very simple question to answer

Because bush* got more votes.

[Pirate Smile]

52. "But why?"

[sangh0]

53. because

bush* lies

[Cheswick2.0]

43. and did he then say he didn't agree or dispute it in any effective way?

I'll bet he did not. The DLC is trying to make sure the nominee is a conservative next time.

[pmbryant]

58. Rest assured they will fail if these are there tactics

I doubt primary voters will put up with the circular firing squad anymore than they did earlier this year. I certainly won't.

Peter

[Bouncy Ball]

28. Well this Ickes guy can just kiss my ass

How dare he insult our votes? That's what he's doing.

Asshole. No, he CAN'T be DNC chair. He sounds like he's working for the other side. Screw him.

[donhakman]

34. defeated straw man

[KamaAina]

33. pot kettle black

Yeeesh.

[blackangrydem]

35. Ickes is Hillary's boy. Every word he says is intended to aid

her nomination.

[The Wielding Truth]

42. Oh, that makes sense. Still working for the Big Dawg.humm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. Harold Ickes Is One Of The Few Clinton Insiders Who Doesn't Think HRC Can

Win 2008....


I'd call that an act of independence and courage....

[Leilani]

61. Where does that info come from?

Everything I have read is that Ickes is working towards a Hillary Candidacy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. I Believe I Read It In The NYT (nt)

[Cheswick2.0]

39. Ickes is DLC , they are busy trying to deny they are responsible

for the loss of the election.
They are blaming Kerry, Moore, Liberals, Howard Dean and anyone else they can blame.

[Julien Sorel]

45. Exactly how is the DLC to blame for this election?

This place is growing more incredible every day.


First, it's Bob Shrum.

No, it's Kerry.

No, it's the DLC.



So what did the DLC have to do with it? Shrum is not connected to them, and he was Kerry's chief strategist. He is also rather well known for consistently championing a message of economic populism, which the DLC abhors. He co-founded the liberal Democracy Corps, which is often at odds with the DLC. So what did the DLC have to do with Kerry losing this election again? I really want to see it.

[CTLawGuy]

51. so it was the LIBERALS

who told kerry to vote for the war resolution? and the liberals who told Kerry to say he would vote for it again, knowing what he does now?

:eyes:

[Julien Sorel]

55. That was Kerry's own decision.

What did the DLC have to do with it?

[LittleClarkie]

63. I heard the oddest explanation for that a few days ago

I was over at the kerrysupport.com site, and clicked on an article I think was in the Globe right after the election.

In talking about that mistake in the campaign, an unnamed aide said it was the setting that messed up Kerry. Taking questions at the Grand Canyon, he was having trouble hearing all of the questions from the reporters (apparently the wind was blowing and he has some hearing loss from combat). Part of the question was lost in the breeze, and Kerry thought he was answering the standard question about his original vote, and didn't here the "Knowing what we know today..." part.

How reputable is the Globe on all things Kerry? The artlicle also said that Kerry's aides had argued in favor of the IWR vote, saying Kerry wouldn't be able to win without it.

Who are these aides? Where did they come from? Were they consultants from the DNC, the DLC or elsewhere? Seems like they gave him bum advice in more than one instance.

I dunno. I try not to believe anything at first glance any more.

[Julien Sorel]

83. The IWR strikes to the core of the problem the Democrats

have. On the one hand, there is a hardcore element that is against every war, and is always going to protest against any use of American force. That element is all too well represented in the Democratic Party; it almost entirely fueled the Dean campaign, for example. Democratic candidates have to pass some kind of dovish standard set by those people in order to get out of the primaries.

The flip side of that is, Democrats have a huge credibility problem on national defense. If the Democrats were perceived as being strong on defense, they could have opposed the IWR and not been hurt too much by the fallout. The conservatives, for example, were able to oppose Clinton's military intervention in the Balkans and get off Scot free. Had the Democrats successfully opposed the IWR, however, it was a lose for them. Any terror attack happening anywhere in the world would have been blamed on the Democrats, who were "soft on terror," and let Saddam off the hook with his WMD and support for terrorism.

So for the Democrats, national security as an issue is a rock upon which they are broken by the Republicans on the right, and the (essentially) pacifists within their own party. The advice Kerry was given and decided to follow was making the best of a bad situation. The only thing that made it turn out bad was, oddly enough, the failure to find WMDs in Iraq. Had they been found, and pretty much everyone expected something was there, the vote would have been seen in a much better light than it actually was. Instead, you have the pansy crowd screaming "I told you so,' and wagging their fingers at people like Kerry for being in the shitty position that those same pansies put him in in the first place.

[Malva Zebrina]

84. Sorry, but not all are against every war

but there were multitudes of well informed citizens who were against this illegal war. We saw it the way it was and had no political desires other than to point out the lies that were being heaped upon the people, day after day, by those in charge of our nation, knowing what the results would be, and we were proven correct .

Wars fought with the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive strikes are immoral and unethical and I will never support that doctrine. NEVER.

We will NOT ever be threatened by any country and we will NOT be invaded by another country. Therefore, any war of invasion on spurious doctrines or on lies, is something I could NEVER support.

People who voted Bush in believed that Saddam was a terrorist and that he was a threat to this country. All lies.

The thing to do was to loudly refute that assumption and point out the lies of George Bush et al, who repeatedly told another story.

NO ONE did that. Therefore those lies stood firm in the minds of the people who felt threatened due to those lies and did not see Kerry as one who would protect them from countries like Iraq who they believed was about to attack us in some terrorist way.

The thing to do was to tell it like it was. and that was NOT done and that belief was allowed to grow and fester. There was plenty to jump on Bush for his lies about killing so many innocent people and puttin g our troops in harm's way and it would have been effective

Except it was NOT done, because of the votes of Kerry, who backed himself into that corner and actually weakened his campaign because of that. He could NOT retract because he feared accusations of flip flopping, and he could not go forward aggressively because he did vote for the IWR.

And that is that---plain and simple.

so much more could have been done if the candidate was more honest.

my two cents.

[Julien Sorel]

85. And again,

if Democrats had credibility on national defense, they could have put up a principled fight against the war without suffering political fallout. But they don't have credibility -- and the same people who were against this war, and the Afghan war, and the Kosovo campaign, and the first Gulf War (like Kerry himself -- he's actually been part of the problem), and Grenada, and Panama, and Nicaragua, and Vietnam, and on and on are the reason why.

Obviously not all of these wars were good ideas, or can be justified morally. But are all of them wrong, and a sign of American arrogance and evil? A certain faction within the party says so, and the public hears them and takes note.

[DemOperative]

57. and it was who again that repeated "electability"

Three guesses. Three initials.

[Cheswick2.0]

78. I really think you need to oepn your eyes

really. You really seem naive to how power works in DC and exactly what kind of players these people are.

[Julien Sorel]

86. Telling me to "open my eyes"

isn't saying a thing about how the DLC caused Kerry to lose. It does tell me, however, that behind your original charge was nothing more than an opinion and a conspiracy theory.

[Leilani]

41. The overall importance of Ickes today was that he wants to

be DNC chair...

The Midwest Governors held a press conference to announce they'd like someone who relates better to battleground & red states.

Howard Dean is still talking to people about DNC chair.

The factions are forming, & whoever wins might determine the future path of the Dems.

[Mike L]

49. I hope the Governors win.

[Mike L]

44. Ickes is right. But Ickes still worked his ass off with ACT and the

Media Fund to try and win. No one worked harder to put a Democrat in the WH. I believed that ACT raised $145 million for voter registration, TV ads and GOTV efforts.

[sangh0]

48. You might want to read the thread

because the OP was wrong to say that Ickes said this. Ickes merely repeated what others were saying.

[Mike L]

50. I thought that was a little harsh :-)

I'd have said Kerry talked on both sides of most issues (IW being the biggest), failed to take positions the average voter could understand, made stupid comments, and was easy to stick with the "Massachusetts Liberal" label.

[KerryDownUnder]

54. Ickes is a McAuliffe Clone

At least in how he operates and what he thinks wins elections. Why get even get rid of Terry if you're just going to bring the same type of guy in to replace him?

[Sara Beverley]

59. Ickes DIDN'T say that! He said the Bush message was that.

I think Ickes would make a great DLC Chair.

[JohnKleeb]

75. DNC not DLC, people stop getting those mixed up

Sorry I heard that wrong btw, I have the greatest respect for his grandfather that said.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. His Grandfather And Namesake Was FDR'S Secretary Of Interior

and one of the architects of the New Deal...

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. He's A Sworn Enemy Of Dick Morriss...

[GRLMGC]

71. That's not hard

Dick Morris is an ass. I'm surprised he has any friends.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. He's A Third Generation Democratic Activist...

He's tough as nails and a great infighter...


I don't really care whether he's the DLC chair or not but I'll defend his Democratic bona fides....

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Do A Google Search-You'll Be Impressed (nt)

The Dems could do worse than a liberal with brass ones....

[Pirate Smile]

81. That is a big plus for him.

[JohnKleeb]

73. I thought they were related

[zann725]

67. He better watch how he demeans our President-Elect!

n/t :kick:

[Cha]

80. Who the fuck is

harold ickes? Kerry lost because bush goons manipulated EVERYTHING!

That's what I believe and I'm sticking to it..unless it can be proven they didn't manipulate the votes.

[Dr Fate]

87. So get Centrists & Moderates to knock on doors for you then.

And to donate $$$.

Good luck w/ trying to get a swing voter to spend 8 hours a day knocking on doors & doing phone banks.

The more they distance themsleves from the base, the less I feel compelled to do monkey work for these idiots.

[proudbluestater]

89. "No Chair for You!!!"