But...But...Kerry and Edwards voted for the War?

[trumad]

Snarf! I'm guessin that don't matter anymore now does it?

[goobergunch]

1. It still matters to me (n/t)

[cthrumatrix]

20. of course it matters....except to "newly registered voters" it seems

[calimary]

40. Still matters to me, too. But what the heck?

If the Sorting Hat starts to say it's Kerry or Edwards, I'll go with whomever is our nominee. I'm still in the Dean camp for now. And even if it's Kerry or Edwards, and I DO support them in the end (which I will), I'm sorry, but their war votes STILL MATTER TO ME.

But what matters more - is showing bush the door.

Waiting for Lieberman to call it a day - I hope he does so, soon. But I bet most everyone else beyond Gephardt is waiting for New Hampshire, especially since that's the first test for Clark.

Fascinating results. And if it DOES wind up being Kerry, when the hell is he gonna start making use of Rand Beers and Joseph Wilson, and that rumored "tactical nuke" of dirt they have on georgie-poo? WHEN? WHEN? WHEN? THAT I would like to see.

[One Taste]

2. doesn't matter to me

They both have explained why they voted for the resolution, and I don't make decisions based on one issue anyway.

[trumad]

3. Yah..those small issues...

;-)

[arewethereyet]

4. did it ever ?

polls said no, people say no.

Honor matters.

[mmonk]

5. Matters to me

and whether either of them would get us into anything else based on a fear of dems being soft on defense or any susceptability to any think tank on the matter.

[Carolina]

59. it matters to me as well

and what also bothered me about Kerry was his recent failure to vote on the Medicare bill. He remained in DC during one of the debates (as did Edwards and Lieberman), voiced his opposition to the bill and then (like Lieberman, but unlike Edwards) didn't bother to cast a nay vote!

So he votes wrong on IWR and convenientely, perhaps politically expediently, does not put his vote (commitment) where his talk is on Medicare. Kinda a talk vs walk theme.

I was a Kerry supporter and put my money where my mouth was in 2002 before the war vote. He had the credentials and the safety of a supportive constituency to buck Bush on this issue, but he didn't.
It bothered me then, it bothers me still.

Clark 2004

[spooky3]

6. MSNBC exit poll shows that while 75% of caucus goers opposed war

it was considered the most important issue by only 15%. You may not agree, but that explains the results. Jobs/economy, and health care were considered more important.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Most Americans supported the war in Vietnam

even as late as 1972!

History repeats itself because human nature remains unchanged.

[goobergunch]

17. Yeah

Are we interested in that which is right, or that which is popular?

~the Goobergunch, a proud 10 Percenter

[spooky3]

18. ??? the poll shows they OPPOSED the war

but thought other issues were more important to them right now.

Re-read my post. I am not arguing whether they are right or wrong. I am simply pointing out what data show explain the apparent discrepancy between their votes and their anti-war positions.

[Leilani]

41. But they also said it was about electability

in the exit polls.

I think the people don't like the war, but they liked Edwards & Kerry better than Dean.

I heard a lot of Iowans on C-Span yesterday, & they just loved Edwards & didn't like Dean.

[Carolina]

61. Edwards has won over many people

Exhibit A: my sister shares my loathing of Bush, but she's been rather removed and uninterested in the campaign up to now despite the fact that that is all I (the political junkie) talk about.

Yet this past week alone, she has repeatedly expressed her new found admiration of, enthusiasm about and inclination to vote for John Edwards.

[arewethereyet]

69. true and telling

expect this to be running across the bottom of your cable news show for a week or so

[maxr4clark]

70. Thanks, I needed that

[lcordero]

7. It still matters to me

and it matters to every young person that is approaching draft age or is draft age:mad:

I will NOT vote DLC/PNACer

[jfiling]

14. *sigh*

You DO realize that there is no draft, don't you?

This reminds me of someone I heard on college radio, who was praising Priest Holmes dad for serving in the army, when so many people were DRAFTED into the war. Duh.

[bowens43]

21. *sigh*

You DO realize there soon will be don't you?

[jfiling]

27. NO

We have an excellent, well-trained VOLUNTEER military, and people continuing to volunteer constantly. Also, military brass do not want a draft, because it's not only not necessary, but detrimental to the morale of the military as a whole. Sorry, but your wrong.

[lcordero]

37. People are not enlisting and will not be re-enlisting

Why do you think that no numbers are being published at all?

Also one good indicator that people are NOT enlisting or re-enlisting is when the services start offering bonuses.

The draft isn't only necessary right now, it is completely unavoidable. We were overstretched before we even got into Iraq. We are overcommitted. We are in over 700 foreign bases right now. This shit is serious!!!

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17563

[jfiling]

44. Troop needs

We are helping in the creation of a democratically controlled Iraqi army, which will lessen the need for American troops in Iraq.

And I take as suspect any argument based on something found on alternet. Just a habit of mine.

[jfiling]

47. For that matter...

Any argument posed by someone proudly using a Che Guevara icon. Know your enemies, and all that...

[frank frankly]

49. dude, you must be smoking Faux News

do you really think things are good in Iraq?

do you know anyone over there?

do you know anyone who died there?

are you sure this is the right forum for you?

[mike1963]

54. Army? We aren't even allowing the Iraqis to have elections!

Are you nuts?

[lcordero]

56. "Democratically controlled"?

The last time that I checked, the Iraqi Governing Council was not democratically elected.

The Iraqi Governing Council is intent on taking away women's rights.

There will never be a democratically elected government for whatever duration Halliburton or Bechtel is there.

I'll take alternet as a source over the corporate media thank you very much.

[Leilani]

65. So vote for Clark

He is totally against the draft..he knows it stinks.

Also, He'll get the troops home sooner than anyone else, because he knows what he's doing.

[lcordero]

71. I have way too many doubts about him

I'll decline but thanks for the offer.

[lcordero]

48. You are quoting information that has come from the

Bush Administration. Since when has the Bush Administration become a credible source?
Have you ever been in the military?
If you were ever in the military you would know that morale has never been at a level that is by any means adequate.

[lcordero]

24. Oh?

You wait and see. Another "emergency" is going to be "manufactured" in order to keep us over there. Staying over there is the only way that Halliburton and Bechtel can keep on gouging us:mad:

[laura888]

31. troops stretched to breaking points, extended assignments...

...I don't think we can consider America safe right now. What if there is ANOTHER crisis (N. Korea anyone?). We probably need a draft now.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike1963]

45. We already have at least 2 "fronts", and in case you haven't noticed,

the neocon bastards in the bogus 'administration' know about as much about logistics as I do about baking lemon meringue pies.

What color is the sky in your world?

[frank frankly]

52. nonsense

so silly as to be suspicious...

[Jackson Smith]

8. Doesn't matter to me and never did. <nm>

[aquart]

10. It does to me.

I support the Democratic candidate in November. But I won't reward that vote before then.

[mvd]

11. Yes, it matters to me because they put control in Bush's hands

But, I doubt they would have done things Bush's way. So, I'm not a one issue person.

[JI7]

12. very large majority voted for IWR candidates

very large majority of caucus goers voted for candidates who voted for the iwr. and these are people who say they mostly opposed the war. and this is only the democratic party. i always knew it would not be an issue with most voters when deciding on candidates.

[sleipnir]

13. Tell that to the thousands who were murdered by Kerry/Edwards actions

No lie will get them out of the responsibility for each dead Iraqi and dead American. Their blood is on all the Pro-War, "Yea" IWR voters hands. I refuse to support a pro-IWR candidate, I hope we don't get one.

[11 Bravo]

39. Murdered by Kerry/Edwards actions?

And so it begins. And a year from now, when the chimp smirks as he announces another tax cut for his rich prick friends, and announces the appointment of some incredibly right-wing ideologue to the SCOTUS, and rolls back yet another environmental protection law, and continues to destroy the social safety-net in the name of "less government", and continues to encourage his agents (Ashcroft and Ridge) to strip away our civil liberties at a pace heretofore unimaginable; well, what the fuck? We can all celebrate the purity of our principled position because we "refused to support a pro-IWR candidate".

[pasadenaboy]

53. When Edwards or Kerry take responsibility for the 500 dead americans

because of their cowardly vote, then I will consider voting for them. They still think it was the right thing to do.

[MoonRiver]

15. It matters. But other thing matter too, such as stopping the closest

thing to a fascist takeover of our country in it's recorded history. I don't think Dean can pull it off. I do believe that Clark or Kerry can.

[frank frankly]

58. saywhat, you said it beautifully

thank you

[poskonig]

16. Nobody voted for the war.

The resolution authorized the use of force in the event of a threat.

[jfiling]

22. Wrong

http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686

To highlight the important part:

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS. (a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338).
(b) SINGLE CONSOLIDATED REPORT- To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.
(c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION- To the extent that the information required by section 3 of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of such resolution.

[isbister]

55. right

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

***The President violated this condition. Diplomacy was working, inspections were working and the national security was not threatened when bush invaded.***

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

***The President violated this condition. Bush himself admitted no link to 9/11 last September so, he lied there. and one old crippled guy wasn't justification for his invasion.***

(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

***I'm pretty sure the President violated this condition.***

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS. (a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338).

***There have been questions in Congress about the president's missing these required deadlines***

(b) SINGLE CONSOLIDATED REPORT- To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.

(c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION- To the extent that the information required by section 3 of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of such resolution.

[sleipnir]

67. Any idiot can figure out that a YES vote for that bill would lead to war

Too bad several (D's) in Congress couldn't figure it out or were more concerned with their career-politican careers than human life and world security.

[frank frankly]

60. hey, and that democratically controlled Iraqi army is almost ready to go!

or are you 100% wrong?

[bowens43]

19. Of course it matters.

[ACPS65]

23. Only place it seems to matter

Is the ultra-left myopic bastion that is DU.

Kerry and Edwards win. America has spoken.

[trumad]

26. Actually only about 100 thousand have spoken...

[lcordero]

28. ultra-left bastions?

go to your local university and ask. Go to the nearest slums to you and ask.

[ulysses]

32. "America has spoken."

Well, no, not yet...

[mitchtv]

36. No,Iowa has spoken

.

[Skip Intro]

25. Nah - just a few tens of thousands dead and many more mutlilated

the country shifting tons of monies into an illegal invasion with domestic priorites gutted, world respect for the US and world trust in the US destroyed - all for flat out lies and subsequent war-profiteering on behalf of the bush regime.

No biggie...

:eyes:

[TomNickell]

29. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"--Isaac Asimov

An important distinction.

The possibility of War as a LAST RESORT was what got S. Hussein to agree to inspections and forced him to ever more concessions.

Intelligently used, the possibility of war would likely have prevented the need for war. S. Hussein was defeated, contained, monitored and probably on his way out the door. That's the outcome most everyone wanted.

Bush* did NOT use war as a last resort. He decided to invade and then made up lies to justify the invasion.

Kerry, Edwards, Clark are not pacifists, but they are not lying sacks of horseshit either.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

30. Sure it matters.

But it doesn't matter nearly as much as stopping the goon that's in office right now.

[liberalmuse]

34. Unfortunately, it matters more to me than I thought.

I like Kerry/Edwards and would have voted for them hands down if Dean, Clark and Kucinich hadn't come along. For the first time in my life, I felt fire and passion--felt 'this close' to being a part of the democratic process instead of merely an observer who throws a lever once a year. Feeling a part of the democratic process, that I might in some way matter is like a potent drug, a more vivid reality. I can't go lukewarm after this. Now I know why Greens voted for Nader. If the fiery candidates lose the rest of the primaries, many of us are going to have to be talked off of that ledge between going third-party and voting against Bush.

[mike1963]

35. Well, every candidate who -had- a vote, voted for it.

How many Dems in congress voted -against- it? (I don't even remember but it was vanishingly small)

Seemingly, almost all Americans (DUers excepted of course) bought into Shrub's lies, it doesn't surprise me that congress basically believed them at the time...

[Jerseycoa]

43. Two things

1-What you said. "it doesn't surprise me that congress basically believed them at the time..." This is what the Iowa voters who were 75% against the war came to believe about John Kerry.

2-These are the people with kids IN the war. They want somebody with a military history they feel would look after their kids. Kerry's change in theme once he was in Iowa playing up his veteran status is what won this.

[dusty64]

63. They still do.

I've yet to hear one who enabled the war to renounce their vote. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm still waiting to hear one of them say they were duped.

[adamrsilva]

38. It shows that most Democrats aren't that liberal

Not at all.

[welshTerrier2]

42. But ... But ... But ...

i was strongly against the IWR ... i called Kerry's office and was told his calls were running 20 - 1 against the resolution ... and i would never defend Kerry's IWR vote ... he made a tragic mistake yielding Congressional authorization to bush ...

i'm a kucinich-kerry undecided voter btw ...

the answer to your question is it DOES matter ... it matters very much ... but, all issues must be held in proper perspective ...

one perspective, for example, is that it's not entirely clear any of the democratic "front-runners" would have voted against the resolution ... we've been around and around on this but Dean did support Biden-Lugar and he also called for unilateral invasion of Iraq (within 60 days) if bush presented WMD evidence (which he did via Powell's fraudulent U.N. presentation) ... and who knows how Clark would have voted ...

so, perspective one is that it's not clear we have a real alternative on the IWR issue ... with the exception of Kucinich and Sharpton of course ..

secondly, however opposed to the IWR you are, you should be at least that opposed to bush remaining in office ... if bush gets four more years, we're going into Syria, maybe Iran, maybe N. Korea and who knows where else ... so, perspective two has to put significant emphasis on the pure pragmatism of getting bush out of there ... if someone believes one of the IWR supporters is the best man for the job, perhaps you need to not be so "single minded" about the past and need to weigh the future on at least equal footing ...

and finally, perspective three recognizes, as others in this thread have pointed out, that there are other issues ... this is not to minimize statements like "their votes resulted in thousands of deaths" ... frankly, i'm somewhat predisposed to agree with the sentiment although it's entirely possible bush would have invaded Iraq with or without their IWR votes ... but there are other critical issues that affect the lives of the neediest Americans ... we should not ignore the economy, jobs, healthcare, corporatism, the environment, taxation, education, racism and on and on to focus solely on IWR ...

the point is not to brush IWR under the rug but rather to keep it in perspective ...

[dusty64]

64. I agree that

priority one is getting these squatters out of Washington. Other things bothered me also though, like the vote for the "Patriot Act" and others. Does anyone remember the votes on the first taxcut, my memory eludes me.

[frank frankly]

46. hey, I think very poorly of you if you think that is funny

this war was/is a metaphysical/moral/economic/strategic abomination.

you want to defend this war, go ahead. let's hear it.

just because some of us are getting over/around the IWR vote, doesn't mean I still don't think it was 100% wrong.

unreal post, trumad. worst i've read here, maybe.

[corporatewhore]

50. IWR dont matter much now its what is the cannidate is going to do

in iraq for me.I personally think that we need to get outta iraq and end the occupation so if DK had voted pro IWR and wanted to end the occupation i would still support him.

[pasadenaboy]

51. It matters to 500 dead americans

but I guess that's no big deal, right? As long as you win, who cares who dies?

[bread_and_roses]

57. It matters a great deal to me

and if I thought Dean was a genuinely anti-war - or even genuinely anti-Iraq war - I might be as passionate in his support as those of you who do believe it. I also think that Kerry's rational on IRW vote is specious, and his behaviour at SH's capture reprehensible - that was a moment when I did think Dean was speaking honestly, and he went up in my estimation.

In the end, I guess, for me it comes down to the real "peace" candidate, DK, not being a front runner, then which of the front runners do I hope to see take it? And Kerry has overall a better record, and I maintain hope that his own Vietnam experience would make him averse to sending troops into that sort of war, or authorizing the killing and terrorizing of civilians that it makes inevitable.

We are all making the best decisions we can, in an imperfect political landscape.

[Guaranteed]

62. Well, I think it's going to matter when it comes down to the voters

supporting the person who decided upon a policy or someone who just voted for it.

[kcr]

66. This is a misconception that will kill the Dems in Nov

if its not corrected.

Kerry and Edwards both trashed Bush's performance in Iraq. the vote did not matter because, in effect, they have already repudiated it.

If they had not, things might have been different.

[PatrickS]

68. As a Canadian...

I can't believe any Democrat would vote for anyone who supported the war. God, I'm glad I live in Canada.

[quaker bill]

72. It matters to me.

I am not going anywhere. I still have no intent to support a candidate that voted for this. Wrong is wrong, regardless of how popular it becomes.