Will Kerry become president?

[DavidDvorkin]

Lots of threads on DU about election fraud and recounts. A lot of us are expressing hopes -- in some cases, practically amounting to conviction -- that fraud will be proved and that recounts will result in Kerry being declared the winner.

It's just not going to happen.

I wish fervently that it could. But surely it's clear that, with the connivance of the media and people like the Sec'y. of State of Ohio, the end result will be that Bush will be sworn into office on Jan 20.

I hope that everyone involved keeps fighting and trying, and I don't want to be a wet blanket, but let's be realistic. The bastards have everything under control, and they're not going to let things change.

[whistle]

1. Kerry conceeded, why would he want to be president now

[sportndandy]

2. You're lucky

If you had as few posts as me they would be calling you a freeper or worse.
I bet sometimes you feel pretty positive about Kerry's prospects, and days like today you are in a sour mood. Things may look different tomorrow. I am in that boat; sometimes I feel hopeless and sometimes I know that justice will prevail.
Its the suspense that gets me!

[mattclearing]

5. It looks bleak.

But something could happen tomorrow that changes everything.

What if a whistleblower with name recognition who was in on it got sick of Bush's bullshit and decided to put an end to him?

God knows the guy doesn't know how to treat people. There have got to be people who know all about this and can't stand the guy, and are trying to figure out a way to out him.

Brad Menfil may be full of shit, but it is true that if our suspicions are right, then there's no way it can be kept a secret forever.

When that happens, you will see something like the Ukraine on crack and steroids here.

[DavidDvorkin]

11. You're probably right about the Freeper accusation

That does sometimes get thrown around hastily here.

Yes, I also go up and down, and currently I'm pretty far down.

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. In a "real world" justice would prevail

I have little hope, after four years of bu$hCo.* Inc. of that happening. Jaded? Yes I am.

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. Bush's 2nd term is inevitable

Nothing short of his death is going to prevent his being sworn in to a second term on Jan. 2th, 2005--- nothing.

[daydreamer]

12. why would you say that?

If fraud can be proven and if all Dem go to the streets like they do in Ukraine, things can change. But Democrats are mostly weasels lacking the fighting spirit. That's why we can not prevail over the right wing fanatics.

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. Are you advocating armed revolution?

Within the dictates of the Constitution, there is no way Bush can NOT become President, short of his death or resignation.

[daydreamer]

44. You are right

but the problem with voting machine is something we need to look into. If all the errors "happen" to be in Bush favor, we definitely should have a case to have Bush impeached.

[Cuban_Liberal]

46. I completely agree.

When I say it's time to 'move on', I'm not being defeatist, as so many here seem to think. My point is that 2004 is gone, and our only chance is to work like madmen to fix the problem of e-voting. Any effort that detracts from the vital work is wasted energy, because if we don't fix THAT problem, we'll never win again.

[jesusq]

47. Democrats ARE wusses

I hate to admit it, but daydreamer is absolutely right. Most democrats are wusses and sheep. To us, the 04 election was a hard-fought contest and to the repugs it was all-out war. Our attitude all along was to play a good game, win or lose. For the repugs, losing was never an option. They never give up the fight until the last vote is shredded or deleted. Until we DECIDE to grow a pair and fight, we might as well get used to the pitter-patter of little jack-boots trampling all that we hold dear. Can I hear an amen to any other lone liberal voices crying in the wilderness?

Desparately seeking other progressives with with testicular fortitude.

Love Jesus

[daydreamer]

53. The Right Wing fanatics

When I see them with flip-floppers at RNC and at Bush rallies, I thought to my self: OMG, Democrats can never be that cheap and nasty. Kerry could never bring himself to say that Bush is a Texan borrown and spend hypochrite like Bush called him a Massechusettes liberal.

[Truman01]

21. I have good news for you.....

You don't have to see him sworn in until Jan 20th, 2005

:-)

[Cuban_Liberal]

43. Oops!

Never try posting in between customers.

Good catch!

:P

[LisaL]

4. I agree. It's not going to happen.

Realistically, he has to get more votes than Bush in the state of OH-which means he has to find 120,000 votes-well, that seems impossible.
And never mind that any recount will take place after it's too late to challenge the results.
But I guess denial is one of stages one must go trough.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leyton]

7. At this point, I don't know that I want Kerry to prevail.

Hear me out.

Bush won the popular vote, and even if it turns out that Kerry won Ohio, he still lost the popular vote by a larger amount than Bush did to Gore. (IIRC when Zogby had Kerry winning 311 electoral votes he was still behind in the popular vote). Worse yet, the networks called Ohio for Bush and never backed down, whereas when they called it for Gore, they quickly retracted that statement. So it's ingrained in the public mind that Bush won Ohio, whereas Florida was in doubt in 2000.

So we'd have a President Kerry, but half the population would regard him as illegitimate and would be at least as angry as we were four years ago. Unlike Bush four years ago, though, Kerry could not rely on Congress, because he'd face a Republican House and a Republican Senate that is as close to filibuster-proof as the Republicans have been in seventy years.

Finally, Kerry would have to clean up Bush's mess. He'd have to deal with the Iraq war, either pull out troops or deal with the insurgency; either way, people are going to be pissed off. Furthermore, he'd have to deal with the debt, social security, healthcare, and all those other problems that Bush has either created or exacerbated.

The end result? A tragic four years in office where a good man's reputation is sullied because of events beyond his control, and the Republicans would be back in 2008 with a vengeance a la 1980. I'd rather see Bush flail for four more years and feel smug.

[mattclearing]

9. I'm not sure I buy that popular vote assertion.

eom

[Truman01]

22. I hate to be ignorant, what is eom? N/t

[mattclearing]

24. end of message

to clarify that you meant to leave this space blank.

[Truman01]

26. Thank you n/t

[daydreamer]

15. Don't you love this country?

How could you say that if you are patriotic?

[mattclearing]

19. I stand by my comment.

How could you say that if you were a Democrat?

A true patriot sees through lies and questions authority, and knows when 2 + 2 = 5.

I interviewed Chuck Herrin (the Republican hack the vote guy) of www.chuckherrin.com last week for a freelance article I was working on, and he convinced me that a multi-million vote shift is possible with our current election systems.

That means the exit polls very well could have been right.

[leyton]

28. Good, stoop to right-wing tactics.

Are you talking to me? I'm not sure, b

"A true patriot sees through lies and questions authority..."

Don't question my patriotism, because you don't know me. If you're going to resort that sort of thing, join the effing GOP.

Sure, I question authority, but I can also tell the difference between an election being stolen (in 2000) and being lost (in 2004). I'm not totally discounting the possibility of fraud, but I have seen no convincing evidence of it. Yeah, a multimillion shift is possible, but it's also not been proven.

I don't know about you, but I come here to participate in active and earnest discussion, and sometimes that includes admitting that at this point if Kerry somehow prevailed, he would still be crippled by the Republican party so that it would not be worth it, just as some here think the Clinton presidency was a betrayal of Democratic values. I don't come here to be bullied into believing in something I see no evidence of just because there's a chance it's true.

[daydreamer]

45. I didn't mean to be offensive

I had the same feeling temporarily like yours. Let's watch Bush screw this country for 4 more years. But then I thought we are better than that. We love our country and we need to keep on fighting for our cause. I am sure you agree with me.

[mattclearing]

51. Apology.

Just wanted to let you know...I was referring to "daydreamer." Somehow I misread the threadlines and thought that person was questioning my patriotism for questioning the 3.5 million majority. Turns out, that person was questioning your patriotism for thinking Kerry shouldn't be President.

I'm not in the business of questioning patriotism. I questioned daydreamer's being a democrat for questioning anybody's patriotism.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Are you talking to me? I'm not sure, b

"A true patriot sees through lies and questions authority..."

Don't question my patriotism, because you don't know me. If you're going to resort that sort of thing, join the effing GOP.

Sure, I question authority, but I can also tell the difference between an election being stolen (in 2000) and being lost (in 2004). I'm not totally discounting the possibility of fraud, but I have seen no convincing evidence of it. Yeah, a multimillion shift is possible, but it's also not been proven.

I don't know about you, but I come here to participate in active and earnest discussion, and sometimes that includes admitting that at this point if Kerry somehow prevailed, he would still be crippled by the Republican party so that it would not be worth it, just as some here think the Clinton presidency was a betrayal of Democratic values. I don't come here to be bullied into believing in something I see no evidence of just because there's a chance it's true.

[leyton]

57. My bad... sorry I got all angry on you there.

Is there a "sheepish" emoticon?

[leyton]

25. Indeed I do.

And I think the next four years are going to be pretty bad either way. What's your point?

[mattclearing]

27. Point

You are saying you would rather let Bush screw the world for four more years than see Kerry with his hands tied, effectively accomplishing nothing.

I will take nothing anyday. Gladly.

[leyton]

29. While I see what you're saying, I disagree.

In the long term, I think it would hurt us because we'd get four years of nothing with Kerry, and then bam! The Republicans enter office again in 2008, and proceed to screw us over some more.

I'd rather get this over and done with and then get a Democrat who can be effective.

[mattclearing]

49. That's assuming there will be an election in 2008.

With this crowd in the White House for another four years, I have to say that's a gamble.

[msgadget]

55. Excellent analysis,

I couldn't agree more!

[MODemocrat]

8. Not this late in the game

It's so frustrating and scary for Bush to be installed for another four years. He doesn't have a clue as to how to end this bloodbath, and so many more precious lives are going to be lost because of him. He has absolutely no economic responsibility, and I fear the people of this country are just going to be forgotten as he starts yet another war, one after the other. I'm so sad.

[LisaL]

33. At this point, all we can do is to sit back and enjoy the ride.

[MODemocrat]

40. Thanks Lizzy, I needed that

So far it has been a bumpy ride for the Bush administration, and, at times it's almost a relief to know that the Democrats are not going to have to clean up the mess for him. It's mostly the innocent people losing their lives that really concerns me.

[Clarkie1]

10. Not in this universe

[zann725]

18. I remain optimistic...there are "Temporary Restraining Orders"...

and "War Crime Charges," and power of the people (as in Ukraine), and...I think it's NOT January 20 yet, so we're all just guessing for now.
I'll wait until then, thank you. A lot has started to happen in the last week especially.
:kick:

[Truman01]

23. Man I would like to hear some good news. What on earth...

good has happened in the past week? I see nothing. What do you see?

TC

[Leilani]

13. Nope!

[bones_7672]

14. Of what country? n/t

[bones_7672]

16. Of what corporation?

[bones_7672]

17. Of what fraternity? n/t

[bobbieinok]

20. THE issue is the integrity of the vote/election

Why bother to vote for any candidate or party if you cannot be sure that your vote will be recorded and then counted accurately.

ACCURATE ELECTION IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE

[chaska]

30. No. Not this year or '08.

[FoundInTheMaise]

31. Yes

Moveon and Bev Harris will prove Kerry got more than 3.5 million votes than * and Kerry will become our president in January.

[DavidDvorkin]

32. But that has to happen very soon

Once the votes are certified and the Electoral College votes, it won't matter what anyone shows about the actual vote numbers. From that point on, the machinery rumbles on automatically toward inauguration.

That's what happened four years ago. The issue dropped from public view.

[zann725]

56. Say 'Temporary Restraining Order'...

The Electoral Vote can be put on hold by a T.R.O. in Ohio (or any state) due to pending Fraud suits being filed, and already filed.

And last time (remember "Farenheit 911"), no Senator came forward to contest the Certification. This time, we're working on that. Email every Senator you think might stand up, and stop the process.

[bones_7672]

37. And say hello to Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny! n/t

[AzDar]

34. George W. Bush DID NOT win the popular vote; he didn't win the election

He IS NOT President. However, no matter if he does somehow manage to hang on to his usurped office, at least when the fraud is revealed,
we won't have KKKarl Rove and his ilk crowing about their "political capital"..or their "mandate". Let Fucktard finish his four years; at this point Kerry would be walking into a mess not easily cleaned up (Iraq, the economy, etc.) that was created by Shrub, let those who broke it try to fix it. Not to mention the fact that his many criminal acts leave him vulnerable to impeachment.

[FoundInTheMaise]

52. Impeachment

Can a minority congress somehow filibuster up an impeachment? How much political capital would they use up doing such an action?

[vol5516]

36. agree

totally agree! As awful as it is, I think W will be inaugrated on Jan20th. I don't think there's any way Kerry can defeat him. No one is going to be able to PROVE fraud. Come on, does anybody in the United States really believe that Ohio would set aside the outcome of the election. I'm not sure if Jesse Jackson knows this, but HE wasn't the candidate, John Kerry was!! Maybe if Kerry was out there yapping like Rev Jackson, there might be more crdibility to this whole thing!

[Cheswick2.0]

39. Wow, what is your problem with democracy?

Jesse Jackson has every right to speak up as do we all.
What makes you think fraud can't be proven?

You know what, never mind. I am not even interested in your answer.

[zann725]

59. Maybe we won't have to depend on Ohio entirely...

To my understanding, there've been "Fraud" and Voter Suppression cases filed in numerous states. It is my understanding that a Temporary Restraining Order could be filed in any of those states, prohibiting their Electoral Votes from being confirmed.

Plus even on January 6, it is my understanding that if one Senator stands up and challenges the vote, the process is halted??

[ReadTomPaine]

38. You should have made your post a poll. Interesting to see the results.

[DavidDvorkin]

42. You're right. Should have been a poll.

I thought about it, but then I thought there'd be few responses. Any kind of thread I've started in the past has died out quickly, so this was a suprprise.

[KSAtheist]

48. No.

While the various anomalies and problems in this election need investigating, this battle is over. It's like sending your remaining battleships to chase the Japanese fleet after Pearl Harbor.

We need to save most of our energy and resources in combating the further erosion of civil liberties the next four years will bring, not squander it all on a lost cause.

[LakeCohoon]

50. Not now, nor in '08. n/t

[msgadget]

54. No, he will not.

And, time's a'wastin' in the waiting. The voting process needs overhaul for future elections, not just to get Kerry into the WH.

[autorank]

58. Niet! Nada. Never...sorry, just the facts ma'am.