"Don't attack conservatives" verses "Conservatives = Nazis" A Thought

[norml]

There's room for both approaches. It's like "good cop/bad cop" both seeming to be at odds, but really working together to get a confession. It's like when the right wing media whores, with their Republican infomercials, go much further than their candidates dare, so as to make their candidates seem reasonable by comparison. It's like when their "callers", really scripted shills, go much further than the right wing media hosts go, so as to make them seem much more moderate, reasonable, and "independent", than they really are. The "Don't attack conservatives" approach is not for me. The "Conservative = Nazis" approach is not for others. Sometimes both approaches can even be used by the same person. There is room for the "Let's be friends!" approach, as much as much as there is room for the "Die monster die!" approach. Just lets not get in the way of each other when making these cases. Learn from how they handle these sort of differences. The Republican candidate will say, "Rush may have gone too far, but he has a point". Rush will say, "The caller may have gone too far, but they have a point". The Republican candidate never repudiates Rush. Rush never repudiates "callers" telling him that he's not going far enough. They never repudiate the extreme position. They never deny that the extreme position is true. That's for the opposition to sputter over. The Book, The Art of War, says something like, "When you face a stronger opponent, irritate them". Please try not to denounce me for encouraging irritating them, and I'll try not to denounce you for encouraging making friends with them. Maybe your not attacking approach will irritate them more than mine. There's room for both Joe Lieberman, and Howard Dean.

[DireStrike]

1. Sure!

You just have to know the consequenses of your actions. You're not likely to get elected anywhere with inflammatory remarks, and you may damage your credibility.

And they're NOT conservatives. Not these guys.

[tk2kewl]

3. is norml running for office?

I agree wholeheartedly with norml's post, and I tend to be a little bit of both good cop and bad cop. I think his bottom line is that the good cop is not supposed to try to shut up the bad cop, he is supposed to use the bad cop to move the agenda and debate in the intended direction.

[DireStrike]

5. Nope, just general advice.

I agree also.

[norml]

11. "to move the agenda and debate in the intended direction"

Exactly!

[texastoast]

4. Neocons = Nazis

They are WAY past conservative. "To label them conservative is to make the same error as labeling the 1930s German Brownshirts conservative" (quoting Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration). Even the true conservatives can't stand them.

I just wish the Republicans could get it.

[LoZoccolo]

2. A slight adjustment shields the argument from its most common counter.

I don't think we should ever say conservatives = Nazis because the obvious differences discredit the similarities. Especially when you argue with a conservative - they know the differences between themselves and Nazis already, and insisting they have a quality that they know they don't is one of the stupidest ways to argue something. I think we should be specific and say _____ tactic being used now is similiar to _____ tactic which was used in Nazi Germany (or any other list of authoritarian governments) which had _____ effect. With a simple effort with regard for intellectual honesty, you protect your argument.

[tk2kewl]

6. We should be intellectually honest

even though the right never seems concerned with this. We need to expose this difference as clearly and publicly as possible.

[LoZoccolo]

8. I think we're actually at a disadvantage here.

The right has almost all day on AM radio to not only talk about their arguments, but flaws in ours as well. We need our arguments to be way more bulletproof than theirs are, because they seem to have all the time they need to shoot holes in ours.

[norml]

9. Tactics they are using now are similar to a tactics used in Nazi Germany.

If that works for you, and you think it's the best way to put things, go for it. It's not too far off from what I'm saying. They'll still say you're calling them Nazis, no matter how mildly you put it.

[mattclearing]

7. I agree.

A "whispering campaign" alleging neo-nazi conservative fascism can plant the seed of doubt that these people are out of touch with everyday people.

Then Democratic politicians can allude to it coyly and that basis will already be built in people's minds.

Edit to add: If they can call us communists, then is it really unfair to call them nazis?

[Barney Rocks]

10. I can't think

of anything that fits them better than "nazi" and "fascist".

If the shoe fits then they have to wear it. If I could come up with a more accurate description I would use it.

[blm]

12. I think you don't understand the difference between REAL conservatives and

those who bastardize the word "conservative" for their own agenda.

REAL conservatives have an honest viewpoint that doesn't involve cheating and screwing over the next guy, bullying other countries, or telling women what to do.

Attack the neo-cons, the fascists, and the radical religious extremists with their correct labels. Conservative is NOT the correct label.

[Zorra]

13. Regressives is rapidly becoming the appropriate word for these people. n/t

[Zero Gravitas]

14. As soon as they stop

acting like Fascists, we'll stop comparing them to fascists. Fact is they do have some traits of fascism... the nationalism, the use of force no matter what, the "you're with us or you're against us" attitude, the worship of a so-called "strong leader" etc.

If the jackboot fits...

[norml]

17. The jacket he had designed for himself has "Commender In Chief"

Embroidered on it, along with the Presidential Seal. Now if only he had managed to get himself some kind of medal to put on it. Maybe he can get the Republican Congress to give him The Congressional Medal Of Honor, for something, or other. Time to start a "Give President Bush The Congressional Medal Of Honor" thread in Freeperville? And yes, that is just the sort of self designed uniform that Hitler would've worn, if only it had his Iron Cross.

[merwin]

19. sadly i heard on the radio that Bush was nominated for a nobel peace prize

WTF are these ass-backwards people thinking?

[slay]

15. Fascists no doubt

Put me down in the "republicans are fascists" column. As progressives, we have tried to conduct a civil conversation with these people, but that is not the way they play the game. They make up lies about liberals which the media continues to play over and over until the average American starts to believe it. They want to force their narrow-minded views on all of us. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. If you don't believe in gay marriage, don't marry a gay person. But do NOT force your beliefs on me damnit. This has gone on far too long. They have stolen our government, our media, and our freedoms. We must stand up to these people, knowing our cause is just, and never back down. If people like Lieberman want to try to pretty it up, go for it. However the time of trying to understand where these people are coming from is over. They preach hated, war, discrimination, control, and corporate greed. That's where they are coming from. I'm not saying we as liberals are right about each and every little thing, but we are damn sure right about opposing these assholes. Freedom is under attack and we must fight back.

[Mr. Mousie]

16. I see what you're saying, but...

I think that it's ACCURATE to describe the current clique in power as fascist, and I think that it's best that people wise up to that.

When the "good cop" types start criticizing those of us who are more clear on this issue, a much needed discussion shuts down. People start worrying about the "electability" of some schmuck who's not going to do anything to really oppose the fascist agenda, and suddenly we all have to shut up.

It's a big problem.

Maybe we should talk about what fascism is instead--perhaps if we get our terms more clear, we can make some progress.

**EDIT: I meant that as a reply to the main post, not to the CLockwork Orange guy's post.

[Old Mouse]

18. They have gone beyond Nazi tactics

The Nazis focused on nationalism and racial hate. The Rovian propaganda messages are so convoluted and self-contradictory as to destroy the ability for critical thinking. You cannot argue against the faith of a Bush supporter, they are thus insulated from logic. This is beyond facism... this is more like a massive death cult.

We must stop this attempt to win over the Bush faithful though logical arguments. It becomes an unnecessarily emotional issue for us as it is easy to get lost in the need and desire to "win the argument" Its an issue of faith, the argument cannot be won. Never teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and irritates the pig.

Change the rules of engagement, do not be drawn into debate. Distract them with entertainment to keep them from being politically active. Marginalize the Bush faithful with a massive World Wrestling Entertainment Smackdown performed live on the roofs of speeding cars in a twenty-four hour flaming Nascar race of doom live on election day. With free beer.

[norml]

20. Yes, it is a cult, an evil death cult.

It is a cult which takes away services, protections, benefits, and rights from the people. It's is a cult which demands blind obedience, and unquestioning loyalty. It is a cult which sees anyone not of the cult as the enemy. It is a cult which tells it's members not to listen to anyone outside of the cult. It is a cult which tells it's members that that they are all good, and can never do anything wrong. They are a cult which tells it's members that anyone outside of the cult is all evil, and can never do anything right. It is a cult which promises jobs, low prices, prosperity, and security, if it is obeyed. It is a cult which promises freedom, but delivers slavery. it is a cult which promises peace, but delivers war. It is a cult which promises plenty, but delivers poverty. It is an evil death cult.

[norml]

21. Kickity kick kick kick!

I like this thread too.