Just saw a guy on Hardball who says that a united Europe is

[JPace]

interested in making life great for the people, not in war. People over there retire with 80% of their income, Universities are free, doctors make house calls and they never leave a bill and life just keeps getting socially better for the people. They are doing this by not having a military (no expense). Instead they use the money for making life better for citizens.

Makes me sick how our country puts all its money in wars and almost nothing in its people.

How long will this insanity go on?

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. Saw it too...very interesting discussion. What was his name? n/t

[JPace]

2. I missed his name, tried to find it on the Hardball site but it

was not there yet. Just remembered he said that the government pays parents to stay home and take care of the babies their first year of life....

Makes me feel like a 2nd class citizen living in America. Big Business and wars first...people a distant third.

[AP]

3. They could still have a military and do all that. And the military would

probably be a decent investment because it would make the US think twice before they go fuck up the world at Europe's doorstep.

It's a false dichotomy to think that you can't do one without the other (have a good social safety net but no national security, or national security but no social safety net). You can still retire with 80% of your salary and have free, decent health care regardless of whatever else you do because those things actually create more social wealth.

America's problem isn't that we don't have enough money to do good shit. It's that we insist on shifting so much of the wealth we create to so few people who so so little with it that is productive.

[Chalco]

4. It really pisses me off...

that people don't know this about Europe. People that travel know what it's like over there. They believe that the quality of life is most important. The old saying that the French work to eat and the Americans eat to work is apt. They have long vacations, they are not obese, they have less violence. I could go on and on.

Italy--work for 20 years, guaranteed pension, free health care, free university.

WTF do we get for our taxes---WAR

[AP]

5. Europe works too, but they gave up monarchy and concentrated wealth while

America seems to be embracing it. Europe and the US are moving in opposite directions.

[ooglymoogly]

10. they learned democracy from us when we were a great power

only five years ago. now that shrub has thrown this country into the crapper, they, it appears, will become the dominant power in the world of first class thinking while we on the other hand will descend to the 15th century before even the gutenberg bible. welcome to a flat earth, compliments of g w bush et al.

[AP]

12. The EU is founded on principles that are like the US Const on steroids

90% of the US Constitution is founded on the idea that America would be better if all the states competed on a level playing field.

90% of the EU founding principles are this: INDIVIDUALS should be able to compete on level playing field.

All the things that we take years of constitutional interpretation to establish, the EU states straight up are protected categorizations.

It's interesting because all the different languages and history means that the organizing principles have to go much farther to ensure people that nobody will get an preferred treatment, and, like I said, they jump straight down to the individual level rather than talk only about the protections of state citizenship.

And another consequence of this is that they take anti-monopoly laws VERY seriously. They don't want any country to give its corporations preferential treatment. That, as you can imagine, goes a long way to protect democracy.

[Chalco]

20. They also

take the environment seriously. That's why they tax gas so much. Plus they use non-gas fuels. Plus they limit electricity. They believe in handling pollution and global warming.

I am so sick of our stupid country.

I was shocked the last time I came back from Italy and sat around with a bunch of colleagues--all educated, etc--none of whom had been out of the country. Neither had Shrub before he was president. And look where we are. Back to the Crusades.

I'm sorry. I'm upset about this.

[area51]

21. Welcome

Welcome to DU, Chalco.


Man, I'd love to live in a country where the govt. didn't have its head up its @ss, and wisely used tax $ to fund universal healthcare. I'm so tired of living in fear of having an accident or developing a disease that would wipe me out financially.

[AP]

22. Bush had actually been out of the country. That was a lie they

told for Red Staters and people who'd never been out of the country.

Bush spent a lot of time at the Scotland estate of a friend of his father's whose son now runs Cairn Energy. Blair has not let Cairn Energy profit off of Iraq.

[SweetLeftFoot]

28. ?

While I would ceratinly agree that living standards are far higher in Europe than the US, I'm interested in your comment about monarchy and concentrated wealth. many European nations - Britain, Spain, Holland, Sweden, Denmark - retain their monarchies.

And there are certainly levels of concentrated wealth to rival anything in the US.

[Doctor_J]

46. We have a friend (college age) whose boyfriend is from Spain

he's an exchange student here, and can't wait to get back to Spain. People here have been conditioned to think that 50-hr weeks and 2 weeks vacation per year constitute a "life". Most of Europe knows otherwise.

[Old and In the Way]

6. Tweedy: "Europeans don't believe in war, do they?"

It's like he was amazed that Europe which knows firsthand the insanity of what a single person can do to bring devastation on a scale we've never known, could possibly want to live peacefully.

[UL_Approved]

8. The pundits just don't understand rationality

Its like a foreign language to them: rational thinking. The use of logic, humility, and common sense are so foreign to the wing-nut populace of Jesusland that we can only see in terms of violence and aggression. Europe learned its lesson, but they learned it from us, namely the Marshall Plan. We now have the fever and delirium of ultra-nationalist politics, social perversion, and systematic hatred and persecution of selected groups of people. I'm really sorry to see that the mass of people in this country have no understanding of what awaits them, and that they fail to realize the near-duplicate parallels to famous dictators of the past. I have seriously debated whether or not to stay in the United States over current trends, if for no other reason that they would not receive my tax dollars for their orgy of conquest.

[Old and In the Way]

14. I hear you.

I cannot understand how we, as a country, have forgotten what WW2 was all about. We've become brainwashed by TV programming that has made war a virtue and peace a social defect. A perfect population for the likes of a GWB to manipulate and exploit.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

45. I think it's because it didn't happen here, and there was no television

The only real battle that the United States endured on our soil was Pearl Harbor. For a time, we as a country knew what the true horror of war was like, but we didn't suffer like Europe did. Nor did we have to rebuild.

I contend the reason that Eurpoeans still remember what WWII was about is because they're living on the former battlefields. I know that the battle scars are overgrown now, but the Europeans have tried so hard to acctually learn the harsh lessons of WWII that they understand what the true cost of war is.
Even the horrors of Vietnam shown on television haven't made the dent I think it should have. I have to agree with you when you say it's because "We've become brainwashed by TV programming that has made war a virtue and peace a social defect."

[goddess40]

7. Book

I believe this man wrote, "The European Dream." I saw him where he contrasted the American dream with the European dream. Looks like I belong in Europe.

[hippiechick]

9. So when do we leave ??

:hi:

I can have my bags packed and be at the airport in 2 hours.
Deutschland here I come !! :)


:hippie:

[JPace]

11. Hi Hippiechick...

I'm too old now to go through all the adjustment of leaving, but if I were young I'd give it some serious thought. We can hope that in the next dozen years this country will turn directions and start being a peaceful nation with focus on supporting its people, but I am very worried that much suffering is in store for us before people become enlightened. If some want to avoid that suffering by leaving I would not find fault with it.

[Menshevik]

13. free health care is awesome

I go to grad school in the UK but I am a US citizen. And guess what? The British government provides me with free health care. Yup, I'm not even a citizen of their country and they issued me (and all other overseas students) an NHS medical card. Amazing. I went to the local medical center, filled out a one page form so they could put me in the system, and then met with a nurse for the required checkup...all free. I tell my British friends about the health care costs in the US and they can't believe it.

I think I'm just going to stay over here...

[LifeDuringWartime]

15. wow

how well are doctors, nurses, etc paid?

it seems like taxes would have to be very high for those in the medical profession to be paid well

im not looking to become a doctor or anything...just curious

[jojo54]

18. Don't know where you are but here

in southern "screw u" Jersey, they make about $17 to start - 'course they get the crapy shifts but the shortage around here is incredible.

[four more wars]

25. UK Healthcare Wages

looked it up, seems that a nurse would start on about $22-24000 PA a newly qualified doctor $75-85,000 PA and consultants starting at $150,000 PA

not bad at all really.

[Menshevik]

29. salary

my friend's dad is a doctor in Wales...he says that he makes about 100,000 pounds a year, which would be around $193,000. not sure what it is in the rest of the country, though

[Doctor_J]

47. My wife works with doctors

here in Chicago. One of them spends 1/2 his time on his private yacht and his private jet, and the other 1/2 of his time complaining about how his life is barely worth living because of malpractice insurance.

[KnowerOfLogic]

24. U.S.: tax$ spent helping people -wrong; tax$ spent killing people-right.

Crazy.

[Chalco]

27. Some friends of mine moved to London

in August as a result of a job change. Their youngest had dental pain so they took him to a clinic expecting lots of red tape, delays and having to pay up front. Lo and behold the boy was seen right away, was fixed, and they didn't pay a thing. Nada. Free health care even for Americans living in England.

This country sucks!

WAR BEFORE HEALTH IS NOT A FAMILY VALUE

HEALTH CARE BEFORE WAR IS A FAMILY VALUE. IT KILLS FEWER PEOPLE.

[Johnyawl]

16. No military? That's bullshit...

...of the 10 largest defense budgets in the world, four of them are in the EU. (UK, France, Germany, & Italy).

The only countries in the world that spend more on defense than those four are the US, Russia, China and Japan. And if you add all the EU military budgets together the EU is second only to the US in it's military spending. However it's a very distant second. The EU military budgets are designed to defend Europe, not to conduct offensive operations on a global scale. So they can actually afford a reasonable and realistic defense, and their social programs.

[jojo54]

17. Insanity? I feel like I'm in a sci-fi movie

with no way out of the maze and monsters creeping up my back. All I know is, with the American dollar shrinking against the Euro, our export deficit rising and this freakazoid in office, we are all gonna be f*cked by '08. We need somebody to get some kahoonies (you know what I mean), dig up the dirt on the puppet and his string holders that we know is there, and expose them for the blood thirsty, money hungry dictators that they are. And I hope that Keith O gets the scoop!!

[jeff_thompson]

19. The author's name is T. R. Reid . . .

. . . and his book is titled: "The United States of Europe: The New Superpower and the End of American Supremecy." I look forward to reading it. I've read about half of the other book mentioned by one poster: "The European Dream" by Jeremy Rifkin, and have found it worthwhile. It's a bit of an eye-opener to see how well Europe is doing. In many cases the quality of life is higher than in the U.S. It's fascinating to compare the two ways of life. In my limited experience, I have noticed that the Europeans seem quite happy with less than most Americans: Smaller houses, cars, TVs, and food portions. I'm not bashing America, but if we look around, we can learn a lot.

Jeff

[KnowerOfLogic]

23. American national identity has become completely defined by military stre

That's who we are now; we're "the superpower," and there are many in this country who will sacrifice everything else to maintain that vision of america as the the ultimate fighter.

[rman]

26. That's mostly nonsense.

Over here in Europe:

Universities are not free.

There's an increasing shortage of doctors, making ever fewer housecalls.

We do have a military.

Things are getting worse socially for people, as the leaders are dismantling the wellfare state while increasing their own salaries and those of the CEO's.

[mojavekid]

37. Hi rman, I would like to hear more...

Though I noticed that your post was ignored. I had heard that the movement towards our style of corporatist gov. was more prevalent in Germany? Is there a source for this? perhaps an online paper in English, that addresses the issues on the mainland?

Thank you.

[rman]

39. movement towards corporatism is everywhere

I'm Dutch, my country The Netherlands is part of the 'coalition of the willing'. My impression is that most people here do not support it, there have been several fairly large protests but most of the populations seems apathic.
The German population is more vocal, and the German government doesn't support *'s war. I'd say the situation in Germany is less severe then in the Netherlands.

As to sources; i don't know of any one article describing the situation in Europe. But articles from UK media that are mentioned on DU do imo give an impression. Government moving towards the right and a major part of the population not being to happy about it. It's like that all over Europe to a greater or lesser extend.

The European Union is in part hijacked by corporatists. The most glearing evidence imo is the existance of the European Commission besides the European Parliament. The EC is populated by people who represent corporate interests, all kinds legislation proposals go back and forth between the EP and the EC untill the EC is happy with the changes to the proposals. Ie they'r the ones pushing hardest for things link US-style software patents and privitisation of public transport.

Big corporate, financial and government powers are in effect global (can you say "Globalization"?). The corporatist movement is certainly not exclusively a US affair.

[mojavekid]

40. Thank you rman, I had read that Amercian Cos.

had opened up offices next to the EP, so as to have better access to, and exert influence on the policy makers. It is a classic example of America exporting it's influence, I suppose they feel it has worked in latin America, so why not Europe, who's form of Gov't. represents a direct threat to our particular style of consumerism. You still have a more equitable form of Gov't. than where we are going IMO.

Thank you for replying to my post!

[mainer]

43. Doctors are making "fewer" housecalls there?

Americans could only WISH we had that problem.

[Amaya]

30. I know someone who lives in France

anyway, she loves it! She says, the quality of life is much better (health-care and schools...etc). She always tries to persuade me to move.

By the way, I'll be visiting France in 2 weeks, maybe I'll stay. :)

[AngryAmish]

31. Wht are european birthrates so low?

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Because they are sinners who don't understand that

birth control is evil.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Yeah But We're Fatter

And our cars are bigger, which means that we're more manly.

[never cry wolf]

34. You HAVE to read this, Fighting for the Welfare State, Jacob Holdt

This made the rounds at DU maybe a year ago or so, a very interesting comparison between Europe and the USA. Makes you realize that they have it together better than we do.

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

[GOPBasher]

35. Why can't we be more like Europe?

:shrug:

[Doctor_J]

48. Because Limpballs brainwashes America

He and his soulmates tell never-ending streams of lies about Canadians flooding across the border to get health care, poor people stealing billions of dollars from the upper class, and insurance companies being better providers of health care than doctors.

[cidliz2004]

36. AND they usually take 6 - 8 weeks vacation a year.

As someone once told me: Europeans work to live and Americans live to work.

[madbelgiancow]

38. allow me to repeat my offer

for those of you who want to come and have a look-see :-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=2145983

To add to the discussion, our higher taxes pay for a quite big social correction on capitalism, which means we DO have much better living standards. But they are under pressure, as rman upthread said. The retirement of the babyboom generation will be the test to see if our model holds out. I am not that confident.

Even so, the anti-monopoly laws enforced by the European Commision are serious and a very good thing imho.

[Nordic]

41. The Europeans know better. America doesn't. America is like a 13 year old

who thinks he knows everything.

America needs to get its ass kicked, like Europe did in WWII.

America needs to be humbled. And it's well on the road to exactly that. Unfortunately. Time to get out of the way of the train wreck.

[canadianbeaver]

42. You pinned the tail on the Donkey there......n/t

[L.A.dweller]

44. There is something wrong when

elderly people decide to move to England to recieve affordable
health care. Medicare doesn't cover all of the nursing expenses that
the aging need. Too bad the government could care less.

[JPace]

49. Why would England accept American elderly people who are

sure to be medical and social liabilities?