Why did our House Dems let the Repubs slip Patriot II into Intel Reform?

[genius]

Per the alert sounded by Ron Paul (the Independent) yesterday, the House version of the Intelligence Bill includes some of the worst provisions of Patriot II: detention without trial, mandatory jobs, National ID cards, retinal scans, checkpoints. Basically, American will look like a SCI-FI version of Nazi Germany if this is the official version. Dennis Kucinich and Jim McDermott led the Democratic opposition to the bill but Nancy got most of the Dems to vote for the 3000 page bill.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

1. They're outnumbered...

Just a little dose of reality for the anti-Democratic flamers.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Walt Starr]

2. Even if outnumbered, they could still have voted no

IF every Dem had voted no, the thing would not have passed.

[genius]

3. They still need to do the right thing. That way they are on the record

You are right. The House Dems are pretty powerless. But with all the defectors from the Republican Party, they could have won this one and kept these provisions from ever seeing the light of day.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

8. A lot of those "GOP" votes are really just positioning...

by the ultra right. If the Democrats all voted against this bill, then the White House probably would have thrown in a little "sweetener" for the right-wing holdouts that would be even worse -- racial/religion based profiling, massive Defense-budget pork-barrel for certain districts, degradation of permanent resident rights, permission for "crackdown" on protesters, etc, etc.

I don't always agree with Pelosi - she's to my left. But I do trust her to make good legislative judgments.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[genius]

33. Constitutional Law Scholar Robert Byrd voted against it

He said never again after Patriot I. He kept his word.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lady Sonelle]

28. A Little Something To Think Over...

My grandmother worked for decades in a law office. She read trial transcripts daily, prepared court notes, did research, et cetera. Here is what she taught Me:

"Honey, when a woman is raped, the defence attorney will try everything in the book to impugn her. Did she ask for it? Did she fight? Did she fight hard *enough*? They'll measure the scratches inflicted on the rapist, they'll count the bruises on the woman. they'll conclude that, unless she fought almost to the death, that she wanted it! Honey, when you're being raped FIGHT LIKE HELL!"

The Democratic Party is being raped! And NOBODY is fighting!

Think about *THAT*!!

Lady Sonelle

[librechik]

31. Thanks for the apt analogy, Lady

and welcome to DU

[ElectroPrincess]

44. That is such an endearing story ... thanks much

Grandparents are so precious! IMHO we don't fully realize their beauty and insight until after they're gone.

We have no recognizable Democrats save for a few brave representatives and Senator Byrd.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Walt Starr]

5. Those bits of Patriot II not in the Intelligence Bill

will be rolled up into Enabling Ac...er...Patriot III.

Count on it.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

15. Self delete

[genius]

7. It contains the worst parts of Patriot II. That's enough.

It dosn't need the least damaging parts of Patriot II also in order to sound the alarm. The worst provisions are enough.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

16. self-delete

[punpirate]

6. I imagine they had little say...

... about what went into the bill. And, predictably, few wanted to vote against it for fear of being labeled as unpatriotic and not willing to "defend" the US against terrorism. And, no doubt, few read and studied it in its entirety (which ought to be, in more reality-based times, reason enough not to vote for it).

It's going to take months for smaller advocacy groups to dissect the entire bill, and when they do, we're likely going to find that it's a lot uglier than even we imagine now. 3000 pages is more than enough room to hide some very unpleasant changes.

[Jack_DeLeon]

9. You have to admit, the Repugs are giving our Reps the ropeadope

IMO they have been really effective using voting history to club us with.

First they get most of our guys to vote for the IWR.

Then John Kerry and others vote against the extra funding, then they club them for not voting for it.

Now this. Call me cynical but I think this will come back to haunt us.

More Democrats voted for this than Republicans, More Republicans voted against this than Democrats.

In another year or two if something else happens and there is another "intelligence failure," the Republicans and the Media will paint this as being a Democrat failure and how if it wasnt for them this would have been a better bill that could have prevented whatever.

[silver10]

10. Why I think they voted ..

One choice you didn't have is that many Dems, I am not saying all, are in the corporations pockets increasingly more than ever before, and are benefiting from big money being spent - this bill sounds like a lot of contracts for business in the future.

[newyawker99]

17. Hi silver10!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. They can't find their spine??

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. To keep the charade of a "two party" system going.

The "Loyal Opposition" has forgotten the "opposition" part.

[Q]

20. Seems they've also forgotten...

...the 'loyal' part.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Oh, they're loyal all right..to those that pay them.

"America has it's own criminal class, they're called politicians". Or something like that is what Mark Twain said.

[ElectroPrincess]

45. Yes, hunker down and prepare for complete corporate control

of our government ... and soon - The World. May we have something to reclaim after National Corporatism allows these corrupt God fearin' CEOs (in bed with both major parties) bankrupt The Treasury.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. What is your source on this mandatory job thing, for example...

How can we know why certain people voted on a bill if we can't get a legitimate answer as to what it really contains?

[The Wielding Truth]

27. ACLU says - Fight for your rights! We are losing many of them.

The USA PATRIOT Act: What rights are being threatened?
New Federal Executive Branch Actions
This lack of due process and accountability violates the rights extended to all persons, citizens
and non-citizens, by the Bill of Rights. It resurrects the illegal COINTELPRO-type programs of the ‘50’s, ‘60’s, and ‘70’s, where the FBI sought to disrupt and discredit thousands of individuals and groups engaged in legitimate political activity.

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.


• The press and the public have been barred from immigration
court hearings of those detained after September 11th and
the courts are ordered to keep secret even that the hearings
are taking place.

• The government is allowed to monitor communications between
federal detainees and their lawyers, destroying the attorney client
privilege and threatening the right to counsel.

• New Attorney General Guidelines allow FBI spying on religious
and political organizations and individuals without having
evidence of wrongdoing.

• President Bush has ordered military commissions to be set up to
try suspected terrorists who are not citizens. They can convict
based on hearsay and secret evidence by only two-thirds vote.

• American citizens suspected of terrorism are being held
indefinitely in military custody without being charged and without
access to lawyers.

The American Civil Liberties Union, along with thousands of organizations and individuals concerned with protecting our civil rights and civil liberties, is campaigning to ensure that our
rights are not a casualty of the war on terrorism.

Join us in this effort to regain our hard-won freedoms.
• Support a resolution in your city rejecting the USA PATRIOT Act, joining your city with others
across the country in upholding the Bill of Rights.
• Contact your elected representatives and the President to express your opposition to the USA PATRIOT Act.
• Send letters to local newspapers. Organize discussions
What can be done?
Become a member of the ACLU.
Because freedom can't protect
itself. For more information, go to
www.aclu.org/safeandfree

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Right, which is why I'm an ACLU member.

And the Patriot Act is full of shit, and there are plenty of legitimate concerns about it.

But anyone who has been paying attention knows that the 4th Amendment, for example, was rendered essentially null & void under the auspices of the "drug war" long before the PATRIOT ACT came along.

However, my specific question was in regards to some certain hyperbole being repeatedly waved around relating to this "Patriot Act II", and specifically pertaining to an alleged "mandatory job requirement" we keep hearing about. The only source for most of this stuff is a Republican Rep from Texas who is also a right-wing crank. Strangely enough, one of the purposes of this, and other threads on this subject, seems to be to agitate members of DU against the Democratic leadership in the House. I don't know about you, but if I have to pick who to trust between Paul of Texas and Pelosi of San Francisco, I'm going to give Pelosi the benefit of the doubt... at least until some of the weirder allegations raised in the thread can be backed up with something resembling evidence.

As of yet, there doesn't seem to be a whole hell of a lot of that.

[Zorra]

21. Kucinich and McDermott are two of the only real Democrats left, and that

should answer the question.

[MrBenchley]

23. Ron fucking Paul????

Who the fuck would believe a word that dreary crackpot has to say?

He's opposed to birth control, the UN, workers' rights, immigrants, gun control, gays, affirmative action, environmetnal laws, public schools and pretty much anything else that humans call progress.

There's a reason he turns up on the neoNazi Lew Rockwell website so often...he's nuts.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Right. Last time I checked this was "Democratic Underground"

Not, "Right-wing, Anti-Government, The Black UN Helicopters are coming to force your daughters to put condoms on bananas, Remember Ruby Ridge White Supremacist Fucking Crank Yanker Underground"

[MrBenchley]

38. Exactly....

Ron Paul is a fucking screwloose...and if someone thinks he sounds plausible, perhaps they had better check their moorings....

He's too far right for most of the shi'ite Republicans, even...

[eridani]

35. Also opposed to the war and the PATRIOT Act n/t

[MrBenchley]

39. So? Hitler loved dogs and was a vegetarian

It still leaves Ron Paul as a fucking right wing nut, opposed to pretty much every aspect of civilization.

[eridani]

55. We are going to have to learn to work with right wing Constitutionalists--

--on some issues, and this does not mean we have to agree with them that there shouldn't be a public sphere.

[mattclearing]

41. I have to stand up for Ron Paul.

I kinda like him. He was a big disser of the Patriot Act, and is more libertarian than Republican, even if he still wears the R. He has some crackpot ideas, but then so do I. I think he means well, even if I disagree with him on most of what you just mentioned.

[MrBenchley]

43. You're welcome to his company

but for the record, I find there are only two differences between libertarians and run of the mill right wing loonies.

One as that the libertarian owns a modem.

[ElectroPrincess]

46. Yes, there's much to disagree with Ron Paul on BUT

these seemingly Right Wing Libertarians will not vote to take away our personal freedoms. I've know many of these types personally and yeah, they're out there on lack of support for social programs, but they are adamant about protection of Americans' Civil Liberties.

[MrBenchley]

49. Ron Paul has a peculiar view of what "freedoms" really mean

"these seemingly Right Wing Libertarians will not vote to take away our personal freedoms"
As long as you don't count as part of personal freedom, say, the right to organize a union, or the right to have reproductive choice, or the right to have secular public schools, or the right to use public monies to aid the indigent and ill, or the right to buy birth control, or the right to regulate the gun industry, or the right to join other countries in trying to enforce international law and avoid war, or the right not to have toxic waste dumped in your air and water.

Because Ron Paul doesn't consider those rights to be part of freedom at all, and introduces bills every Congressional session to abolish those rights for you and me. However, he's such a repellent nutcase that even most other far right wingers shun him.

[catbert836]

25. Why should they care about our freedom?

They won't have to worry about it, since their corporate paymasters will get them a nice lobbying job after they either resign after changing parties, or are unseated by a real GOP candidate.

[Ladyhawk]

26. Every time I see a post like this, I wonder why I'm a Democrat.

Where is the party leadership?????? WHERE????????

[UpsideDownFlag]

30. for the last goddamned time: was it intelligence reform, or patriot II?

nt

[genius]

32. both and Robert Byrd recognized that when he voted against it.

[LynnTheDem]

37. intell reform...NOT PA II

Sure is easy to yank progressives around tho, ain't it.

No wonder the rethugs own everything; it's almost as easy to fool progressives as it is to fool rightwingnuts.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Repeating the 'Big Lie' works well with both groups.

PA2 was not passed yesterday, despite what the O/P says, yet it seems as though all that's neccessary to make people believe that it did is to shout the lie often enough.

Scary.

[UpsideDownFlag]

48. i didnt say i believed it, i was asking for clarification. i hoped genius

would tell me himself exactly what he meant, because his posts have seemed misleading regarding this issue lately.

[Cuban_Liberal]

53. Yes, they have been misleading.

Extremely so.

[truthisfreedom]

34. try "they hate us for our freedom."

it's that frigging simple.

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. You are lying

Ron Paul is not an Independent. He is a Republican.

[mattclearing]

40. They hate America.

*ducks*

:evilgrin:

[Flying Dream Blues]

47. It was a lose/lose proposition

My guess: Many of them felt that since it was going to pass anyway, why give the repugs more ammunition to go after their seats? (Why does Rep. Donkey hate 'murka?) Of course, this is a hugely depressing scenario, because it means the demos are reduced to being completely powerless without selling out. I am almost to the point of hoping their steamroller tactics get us into such bad shape that there's no doubt where the stink is coming from, and no way to blame this 4 years of "hard work" on Clinton. I try not to see things this darkly, but it's a daily struggle.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. I didn't see "they weren't voting for your bullshit hyperbole" listed...

so I didn't answer the poll.

Please show me where "retinal scans", "checkpoints", and "mandatory jobs" are in the bill. Preferably without having to reference 'sources' like the Weekly World News...

They're not? Oh, I'm sorry then, I thought we were talking about reality--- not bullshit hyperbole.

[napi21]

51. What is in Patriot II in this intel bill?

I suppose I should know this, but my brain is so crowded wiwth all the stuff that's been going on in shrub's admin, I need someone here to tell me just what they've done this time!

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Unfortunately the person(s) behind this thread

have been content to scream a bunch of unsubstantiated hyperbole "checkpoints! retinal scans! manditory jobs!", watch it work people into a froth, and then bail--- without backing a single shred of it up.

This thread stinks, frankly.

Oh. And why do I care? Hmmmm. Maybe it's because I'm part of the fascist retinal scan police, and I want to make sure that my nice checkpoint gig is safe after I show up with Kofi Annan and the UN Black Helicopters to force good middle Merkin Christian teens to put condoms on bananas...

Or.... maybe it's because when people start believing and repeating all manner of easily disproven bullshit, it makes it that much easier for the folks opposed to us to discount everything we say, particularly when we raise legitimate issues currently being sidelined as "tin foil hat craziness" by the Corporate-Owned MSM.... like, say, Black Box Voting and the odd vote totals in places like Ohio.

[realFedUp]

52. It will be interesting who are deemed to be "lone wolves"

you or you or some freeper in fresno?

I trust Bush's setting up his own civil
rights committee like I trust Saddam's
ex henchmen.