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Is the "Stop Dean" movement already in motion?

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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:47 AM
Original message
Is the "Stop Dean" movement already in motion?
Not this again. Dean is our best chance.

Who are these individuals who are content with "more of the same?" Guys, we need a DRASTIC change in the way we do things or this party will lose millions of supporters (including me).
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gWbush is Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. and me
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm not sure it ever stopped.
The beltway crowd will do anything they can to stop him. I supported JK, but I'm not happy that he's in on the stop Dean from becoming DNC chair. Quite frankly, I think Kerry owes Dean and the dem base more than that.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. Dean, Dean....Dean.....
He is the only one......If the DNC ignore him....they will loose grip of the party. Folks want a leader, democrats need a leader and his name is.....


Howard Dean.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Already"???
'Still" is the word I'd use to describe it. AFAIK, it never died.
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blackangrydem Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. What is the timetable for choosing the new chairperson?
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. New chair will be selected by March 1, 2005
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blackangrydem Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. thank yew
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
50. DNC meeting is Feb 10-12
Election will take place then. Probably on the 12th.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. I want Dean badly for DNC, but I would caution against...
..us starting the persecuted martyr routine before anything actually happens. If we want Dean for this then let's do whatever we can to make sure it happens and our voices are heard. But let's not start devolving into the "everyone is out to get him!" mentality that didn't exactly help in the primary either. It's defeatism before actual defeat and I just think that can never be a good approach.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'd like to see something
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 09:16 AM by PATRICK
besides real defeatism posing as leadership from the vaunted Democrat? NOT Committee or the Democratic Losership Council. I thought they were supposed to a) level with the American people(somehow the "with" part vanished on Nov. 2) b) take rational responsibility for failure since it represented the full capabilities of the people and philosophies "in charge". So step down and act like responsible adults already.

Nobody is asking for an angry victorious ultra something takeover to start the next Democratic civil war. We just want the vital, new voices to get to the heart of a failed leadership, issues addressed, taken seriously, mistakes admitted(the REAL mistakes, not the GOP memes adopted for the purpose of evasion). As usual it is the threatened and mean spirited fear of the failed leadership(no one is getting personal HOW the failure occurred, but HEY it happened with an anticlimactic shrug) that is driving this "conflict"> Move right or left? How about moving, period?

If the Dean talents or whatever are not suited for the job then certainly the drudges of the cowed right wing of the party are far far worse, suicidally speaking. let's get talent and conviction back on top where it belongs, not barred from the room.
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KeireG Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. As far as I am concerned
the stop Dean movement has already started. I hope it succeeds.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Oh, well good for you.
Yeah, four more years of the same losing BS.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. The 'cut your nose off to spite your face' wing of the party speaks up
:eyes:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. 'splain yourself, lucy
Why not Dean? Who would you prefer? What direction should the national party take? Don't just post some bullshit one liner about how you hope the stop dean campaign works without offering any sort of explanation.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. Yes, we've been doing so well by trying to be like the thugs
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I totally agree.....Like I said my only issue is the...
"pre-emptive victimization" routine which I think benefits nobody. If the DLC doesn't elect Dean, then Dean and his supporters should actively start their own group to take the reigns and garner themselves just as much power. That's what Dean did when he lost the primary. He didn't go around blaming anyone or playing the victim, he actively put his resources to use where they were needed. I hope he does the same now if the DLC is stupid enough to not elect him. Let them begin their slow slide into obscurity and allow the ascent of a new group to begin. That is going to accomplish far more than a bunch of people complaining on the internet about how poor Dean is being sabotaged again.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. It already exists ....
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 09:31 AM by hippiechick
"Dean and his supporters should actively start their own group to take the reigns and garner themselves just as much power."

... http://www.democracyforamerica.com

:hippie:


edited for link
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I know....but I mean....
Start it on the road to challenging the DLC for control or at least an equal voice in the party.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. I agree with you
:-) We should be channeling people toward places like DFA to solidify & grow something that is already there, rather than completely starting from scratch, though.


:hippie:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. If you don't know the difference between the
DLC and the DNC perhaps you should educate yourself. I see this mistake all the time here at DU.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I do know the difference.....it's typing/writing too quickly...
I am well aware of the actual differences between the two. However, sometimes my sausage fingers type quicker than my brain thinks.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Yes
it is easier to accomplish more by easily rising above a prone bunch of hangers on whose relevance has vanished into the mist. They have hardly- all these four years and many more- done anything exciting or informative to match the orbiting and independent groups and movements that will go ahead without them now.

They should be worried more about their essential lack of power and influence than any "danger" new blood and better thinking might bring to those chairs under their forceful occupation.

It is NOT a professional political party under their watch. Just the opposite and their vision is pitiful and flawed compared to what swirls on around them from all sides. Retire and right profitable books about their excuses and their blame and warnings and should have, could haves and I told you sos. Produce SOMETHING for a change even if it is only killing some trees.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
44. Exactly, Vi5!
Dean is my 'party chairman' so-to-speak. That's why I am an active member of Democracy for America. The DNC will show respect for him, if they want the $ support.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. They will stop at nothing to stop Dean
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Rambis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. Cheesey Dean support poem
It is an adaptation of an old Irish tune called Sam Hall-


In America in the year two thousand four
The boss was rich and the poor were slaves
The women working and children starving
Then on came Kerry like a mighty wave
The workers cringed when the boss man pondered
Overtime was our weekly chore
We asked for little and less was granted
Lest given little then he'd ask for more

In the month of November the boss man told us
No democrat for him could work
We stood by Kerry and told the boss man
We'd fight or die, but we wouldn't shirk
A year we fought and a year we starved
We stood by Kerry through thick and thin
But foodless homes and the crying of children
It broke our hearts, we just couldn't win

Then Kerry left us, we seemed defeated
The night was black for the working man
But on came Dean with new hope and counsel
His motto was that we'd rise again
In two thousand five in America’s cities
The Bush soldiers they took over our town
The stole our churches and trashed our leaders
The Constitution was buried 'neath the bloody ground

They trashed Dick Gephart and Johnny Edwards
They trashed Dennis K and Clark the brave
From the captital they took their names
To burry them in a quicklime grave
But last of all of the Democratic heroes
I sing the praise of thee Howard Dean
The voice of justice, the voice of freedom
He dedicates his life, that we might be free

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YNGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. Who's the head of the Democratic Party?
And given that, is it in that person's person best interest to have Dean in any type of leading role?

Answer that and you have your answer.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. Bet on it.
It will not stop, ever.
Ask Jimmy Carter.
Ask Bill Clinton.
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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. How many will leave if Dean doesn't get DNC chair?
Really. Not... I think I will. Not... maybe. How many have made up their minds that they are leaving if this one man doesn't get this one job.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Wrap your head around more complex thoughts, please.
The party left us behind. I still have a D after my name on the voter rolls. But they are no longer there for the majority of us.

It is not about Howard Dean. He only stands for a symbol....a symbol of change. And there won't be any.

Even if he were to get chair, it really would not bring change.
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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. "Even if he were to get chair, it really would not bring change. "
Really. So Dean just represents change? He "would not bring change." Fascinating.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. No, he could not overcome their resistance.
I am so sorry I answered you. I apologize for falling for it again.
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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Wow, this really is complex. So he can't make change, he just represents
it. And he can't overcome their resistance. What if he got really really mad, do you think he could do it then?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
60. May I see the poll that shows
that the Dem party is not there for "the majority of us."

Thanks.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. thanks for kicking the thread
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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Ches! Great to hear from you. Hey, anyway I can help. Hopefully your
guy can get the job. MadFloridian doesn't think things will change then. You better talk to her.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I didn't attack. I asked how many would leave if he didn't get the job.
Its amazing how oversensitive some Dean supporters are. I have said on more than one thread that Dean would probably make a great DNC chair. My life just doesn't depend it on it.
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. It never stopped and it is going strong here, as always....


Just stop by the graveyard and count the tombstones sometime.....the self-defeating apostles of DINO-ism will never give up until the party is compeltely dead and buried.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. I wouldn't doubt it--but why, specifically, do you ask?
Who is doing this?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
35. Do you mean there are people who don't like Dean?
Yes! Does that make it a movement or some big conspiracy out to get Howard Dean? No!

I'm not supporting Dean and I'm not content with things staying the same. I want things to change a LOT. While Dean correctly badmouths the DLC and the Democratic establishment he's only offering mild change as far as I can tell. He's a moderate. Replacing DLC moderates with another moderate who sounds better but isn't that much different is not enough change for me.
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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Blasphemy! Ooooh they are gonna get mad at you.
Run! Save yourself. Its too late for me!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Did you see his speech, or read it?
Here was the blurb about it posted on the DFA blog:

Monday, December 06, 2004
Major Speech Wednesday
http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/005625.html
Democracy for America Executive Director, Tom McMahon, sent this email to DFA supporters this morning.

Governor Dean will lay out a vision for the future of the Democratic Party this Wednesday at 12 p.m. Eastern in Washington, D.C.

He will outline not just a direction for our party, but a concrete destination: a party built from the ground up.
I see SO much ignorant blaterhing about Dean and what he represents from people who obviously don't have a friggin' clue.

Here's the blurb about the speech posted on the DFA blog:

Monday, December 06, 2004
Major Speech Wednesday
http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/005625.html
Democracy for America Executive Director, Tom McMahon, sent this email to DFA supporters this morning.

Governor Dean will lay out a vision for the future of the Democratic Party this Wednesday at 12 p.m. Eastern in Washington, D.C.

He will outline not just a direction for our party, but a concrete destination: a party built from the ground up.

That means a party powered by millions of small donors, not millionaires. It means a party that speaks plainly and commits to concrete outcomes that affect real people. And it means a party that competes in every single race, for every single vote, in all fifty states.

=====================

And here's the speech itself. You may want massive change of the type that the socially progressive and fiscally conservative Howard Dean doesn't represent (in your mind), but it won't happen without EXACTLY what Dean proposes:

Published on Wednesday, December 8, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
The Future of the Democratic Party
by Howard Dean

Remarks made by Governor Howard Dean on the Future of the Democratic Party. Given at The George Washington University on December 8, 2004

Thank you for that introduction. It's a pleasure to be here.

Let me tell you what my plan for this Party is:

We're going to win in Mississippi
...and Alabama
...and Idaho
...and South Carolina.

Four years ago, the President won 49 percent of the vote. The Republican Party treated it like it was a mandate, and we let them get away with it.

Fifty one percent is not a mandate either. And this time we're not going to let them get away with it.

Our challenge today is not to re-hash what has happened, but to look forward, to make the Democratic Party a 50-state party again, and, most importantly, to win.

To win the White House and a majority in Congress, yes. But also to do the real work that will make these victories possible -- to put Democratic ideas and Democratic candidates in every office -- whether it be Secretary of State, supervisor of elections, county commissioner or school board member.

Here in Washington, it seems that after every losing election, there's a consensus reached among decision-makers in the Democratic Party is that the way to win is to be more like Republicans.

I suppose you could call that philosophy: if you didn't beat 'em, join them.

I'm not one for making predictions -- but if we accept that philosophy this time around, another Democrat will be standing here in four years giving this same speech. we cannot win by being "Republican-lite." We've tried it; it doesn't work.

The question is not whether we move left or right. It's not about our direction. What we need to start focusing on... is the destination.

There are some practical elements to the destination.

The destination of the Democratic Party requires that it be financially viable, able to raise money not only from big donors but small contributors, not only through dinners and telephone solicitations and direct mail, but also through the Internet and person-to-person outreach.

The destination of the Democratic Party means making it a party that can communicate with its supporters and with all Americans. Politics is at its best when we create and inspire a sense of community. The tools that were pioneered in my campaign -- like blogs, and meetups, and streaming video -- are just a start. We must use all of the power and potential of technology as part of an aggressive outreach to meet and include voters, to work with the state parties, and to influence media coverage.

The most practical destination is winning elective office. And we must do that at every level of government. The way we will rebuild the Democratic Party is not from consultants down, but from the ground up.

We have some successes to build on. We raised more money than the RNC, and we did so by attracting thousands of new small donors. This is the first time in my memory that the DNC is not coming out of a national campaign in debt. We trained tens of thousands of new activists. We put together the most sophisticated get-out-the-vote operation our Party has ever had. We registered millions of new voters, including a record number of minority and young voters. And we saw those new voters overwhelmingly vote Democrat.

Now we need to build on our successes while transforming the Democratic Party into a grassroots organization that can win in 50 states.

I have seen all the doomsday predictions that the Democratic Party could shrink to become a regional Party. A Party of the Northeast and the Pacific Northwest.

We cannot be a Party that seeks the presidency by running an 18-state campaign. We cannot be a party that cedes a single state, a single District, a single precinct, nor should we cede a single voter.

As many of the candidates supported by my organization Democracy for America showed -- people in places that we've too long ignored are hungry for an alternative; they're hungry for new ideas and new candidates, and they're willing to elect Democrats.

Since we started Dean for America last March, we raised over $5 million, mostly from small donors. That money was given to 748 candidates in 46 states and at every level of government.

We helped a Democratic governor get elected in Montana and a Democratic mayor get elected in Salt Lake County, Utah.

We helped Lori Saldana in San Diego. Lori, a Latina grassroots environmental organizer was outspent in both the primary and the general, won a seat on the state assembly.

We also helped Anita Kelly become the first African-American woman elected to her circuit court in Montgomery Alabama.

Fifteen of the candidates who we helped win last month never ran for elective office before.

And in Texas, a little known candidate who had been written off completely ran the first competitive race against Tom Delay in over a decade.

There are no red states or blue states, just American states. And if we can compete at all levels and in the most conservative parts of the country, we can win ... at any level and anywhere.

People will vote for Democratic candidates in Texas, and Alabama, and Utah if we knock on their door, introduce ourselves, and tell them what we believe.

There is another destination beyond strong finances, outreach, and campaigns.

That destination is a better, stronger, smarter, safer, healthier America.

An America where we don't turn our back on our own people.

That's the America we can only build with conviction.

When some people say we should change direction, in essence they are arguing that our basic or guiding principles can be altered or modified.

They can't.

On issue after issue, we are where the majority of the American people are.

What I want to know is at what point did it become a radical notion to stand up for what we believe?

Over fifty years ago, Harry Truman said, "We are not going to get anywhere by trimming or appeasing. And we don't need to try it."

Yet here we are still making the same mistakes.

Let me tell you something: there's only one thing Republican power brokers want more than for us to lurch to the left -- and that's for us to lurch to the right.

What they fear most is that we may really begin fighting for what we believe -- the fiscally responsible, socially progressive values for which Democrats have always stood and fought.

I'll give this to Republicans. They know the America they want. They want a government so small that, in the words of one prominent Republican, it can be drowned in a bathtub.

They want a government that runs big deficits, but is small enough to fit into your bedroom.

They want a government that is of, by, and for their special interest friends.

They want a government that preaches compassion but practices division.

They want wealth rewarded over work.

And they are willing to use any means to get there.

In going from record surpluses to record deficits, the Republican Party has relinquished the mantle of fiscal responsibility.

And now they're talking about borrowing another $2 trillion to take benefits away from our Senior Citizens.

In going from record job creation to record job loss, they have abandoned the mantle of economic responsibility.

In cutting health care, education, and community policing programs... and in failing to invest in America's inner cities, or distressed rural communities... they certainly have no desire to even claim the mantle of social responsibility.

In their refusal to embrace real electoral reform or conduct the business in government in the light of day, they are hardly the model of civic responsibility.

In their willingness to change the rules so that their indicted leaders can stay in power, they have even given up any claim on personal responsibility.

And in starting an international conflict based on misleading information, I believe they have abdicated America's moral responsibility, as well.

There is a Party of fiscal responsibility... economic responsibility.... social responsibility... civic responsibility... personal responsibility... and moral responsibility.

It's the Democratic Party.

We need to be able to say strongly, firmly, and proudly what we believe.

Because we are what we believe.

And we believe every person in America should have access to affordable health care. It is wrong that we remain the only industrialized nation in the world that does not assure health care for all of its citizens.

We believe the path to a better future goes directly through our public schools. I have nothing against private schools, parochial schools and home schooling. Parents with the means and inclination should choose whatever they believe is best for their children. But those choices must never come at the expense of what has been -- and must always be -- the great equalizer in our society -- public education.

We believe that if you put in a lifetime of work, you have earned a retirement of dignity -- not one that is put at risk by your government or unethical business practices.

The first time our nation balanced its budget, it was Andrew Jackson, father of the Democratic Party, who did it. The last time our nation balanced its budget, it was Bill Clinton who did it. I did it every year as Governor. Democrats believe in fiscal responsibility and we're the only ones who have delivered it.

We believe that every single American has a voice and that it should be heard in the halls of power everyday. And it most certainly must be heard on Election Day. Democracies around the world look to us as a model. How can we be worthy of their aspirations when we have done enough to guarantee accurate elections for our own citizens.

We believe in a strong and secure America... And we believe we will be stronger by having a moral foreign policy.

We need to embrace real political reform -- because only real reform will pry government from the grasp of the special interests who have made a mockery of reform and progress for far too long.

The pundits have said that this election was decided on the issue of moral values. I don't believe that. It is a moral value to provide health care. It is a moral value to educate our young people. The sense of community that comes from full participation in our Democracy is a moral value. Honesty is a moral value.

If this election had been decided on moral values, Democrats would have won.

It is time for the Democratic Party to start framing the debate.

We have to learn to punch our way off the ropes.

We have to set the agenda.

We should not hesitate to call for reform -- reform in elections, reform in health care and education, reforms that promote ethical business practices. And, yes, we need to talk about some internal reform in the Democratic Party as well, and I'll be discussing that more specifically in the days ahead.

Reform is the hallmark of a strong Democratic Party.

Those who stand in the way of reform cannot be the focus of our attention for only four months out of every four years.

Reform is a daily battle.

And we must pursue those reforms with conviction -- every day, at all levels, in 50 states.

A little while back, at a fundraiser, a woman came up to me. She identified herself as an evangelical Christian from Texas. I asked her what you are all wondering -- why was she supporting me. She said there were two reasons. The first was that she had a child who had poly-cystic kidney disease, and what that illness made it impossible for their family to get health care.

The second thing she said was, "The other reason we're with you is because evangelical Christians are people of deep conviction, and you're a person of deep conviction. I may not agree with you on everything, but what we want more than anything else from our government is that when something happens to our family or something happens to our country -- it's that the people in office have deep conviction."

We are what we believe. And the American people know it.

And I believe that over the next two... four... ten years...

Election by election...

State by state...

Precinct by precinct...

Door by door...

Vote by vote...

We're going to lift our Party up...

And we're going to take this country back for the people who built it.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. I read it and
it seems strikingly similar to the DLC sponsored article posted yesterday.
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=171&contentid=253055

They both called for fighting for votes in the heartland and focusing on health care and the budget as our central issues. It's amazing how much Dean sounds like the DLC when he isn't telling us how bad the DLC is.
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DFLforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. You don't think it's because Dean is once again framing the debate?
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 05:55 PM by DFLforever
Even the DLC knows a good set of themes when they see one. Of course as the article shows they understand them quite differently.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. A lot of people have been saying the same thing
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 06:10 PM by Radical Activist
It's just that Dean gets more attention and coverage for saying what others have already said. No, I don't think Dean is framing the debate. I think there is a common feeling and opinion a lot of people have and Dean has done a good job of picking up on that. I think that was his main skill in the primary and why he has done so well.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. Thank you
For recognizing the great job Howard has done!

He's embracing the will of the electorate, and turning the energy of the people into political capital!


:pals:

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. I didn't see that at all--
The other pitfall Democrats should avoid is trying to trump cultural populism with economic populism. It drives liberals crazy that downscale voters who don't benefit much from GOP economic policies nonetheless backed Bush on cultural grounds. But since most voters don't neatly compartmentalize their ethical and economic concerns, simply turning up the volume on anti-business and class warfare themes isn't likely to change their minds.

And they have their heads up their asses. Economic populism is now winning over cultural conservatives wherever it has been tried. The Democrats' Da Vinci Code--

http://www.alternet.org/election04/20702/

In Vermont, Rep. Bernie Sanders, the House's only independent and a self-described socialist, racks up big wins in the "Northeast Kingdom," the rock-ribbed Republican region along the New Hampshire border. Far from the Birkenstock-wearing, liberal caricature of Vermont, the Kingdom is one of the most culturally conservative hotbeds in New England, the place that helped fuel the "Take Back Vermont" movement against gay civil unions.

Yet the pro-choice, pro-gay-rights Sanders' economic stances help him bridge the cultural divide. In the 1990s, he was one of the most energetic opponents of the trade deals with China and Mexico that destroyed the local economy. In the Bush era, he highlighted the inequity of the White House's soak-the-rich tax-cut plan by proposing to instead provide $300 tax-rebate checks to every man, woman, and child regardless of income (a version of Sanders' rebate eventually became law). For his efforts, Sanders has been rewarded in GOP strongholds like Newport Town. While voters there backed George W. Bush and Republican Gov. Jim Douglas in 2004, they also gave Sanders 68 percent of the vote.

The message is also used by Mississippi Congressman Gene Taylor, who represents a district that gave 65 percent of its vote to Bush in 2000 and was previously represented in the House by Trent Lott. Taylor bucks his district's GOP tilt by mixing opposition to free trade with what the Almanac of American Politics calls "peppery populism" and a demeanor that is "feisty to the point of being belligerent." "Unlike the policy hawks who never leave Washington ... I know the owners of factories, the foreman, and the workers, and they'll all tell you it's because of NAFTA that their factories closed," Taylor told newspapers in late 2003, criticizing the trade deal signed by President Bill Clinton.

Northern Wisconsin and the plains of North Dakota are not naturally friendly territories for progressives. Both areas are culturally conservative, yet their voters keep sending progressive Democrats like Rep. David Obey and Sen. Byron Dorgan, respectively, back to Congress.

Dorgan and Obey also opposed the Republican-backed "Freedom to Farm Act," which President Clinton signed into law. Instead of pretending the subsidies in the bill were good for the little guy, Obey told the truth and called it the "freedom-to-lose-your-shirt" bill. He noted that the new subsidies would primarily go to large corporations, encourage overproduction that depresses prices, and reward big farms over small ones.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. Clue: The DLC article appeared AFTER the contents
of Dean's speech were available. ;-)
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Dean is to the left of people like Lieberman
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but most Democrats are into Bill-Clinton-style Democrats, who are, (gasp) moderate!
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. To the left of Liebarman isn't saying much
very few people in the party aren't to the left of Lieberman.
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Romberry Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. The perfect are the enemy of the good
Are you perfect? Do any of the other potentially viable candidates to head the DNC come closer to your ideal than Dean? Your post strikes me as unrealistic and naive.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. It strikes me as naive
that someone would choose a moderate Democrat to lead a supposedly progressive movement to change the DNC. I don't need someone perfect. I just need someone who actually IS liberal, not someone who only sounds liberal sometimes.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. It's strong party vs cautious party for me--
--not moderate vs. left. Get more people participating, and they automatically become part of the public sphere that the Rethugs are trying to eliminate.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. RA, this is not the time to parse ideology.
We're in real trouble in this country. This guy may not be as "liberal" as you'd like, but at least he believes in giving a voice to the people so that their various ideologies can be weighed in the future.

It's that bad.
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DFLforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
54. His ideas for change seem 'mild' because he's a practical man
interested in effecting reform NOW, starting with immediate, take able steps.

But maybe his plans aren't so mild, because there appears to be formidable resistance from entrenched party circles.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. Greens, Democrats, Kucinich folks are trying hard here at DU.
I don't think they are in the real world, I hope not. It is getting ugly.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. Kucinich folks are separate from Democrats? But anyway....
Let's see: Greens, Democrats, Kucinich folks ... so who's left that's making up that majority you say the Dems have left behind, aside from Dean people.

Odd, though, there are plenty of Greens, Democrats and Kucinich folks calling for change too. Perhaps not necessarily Dean, but change.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. I am talking life on DU, not real life. We are all fine in real life.
PDA folks, mostly Kucinich, met with DFA this month. In real time, things are fine. In real time Clark and Dean people work hard locally together. I am speaking forum terms.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
65. Hey, I'm a Kucinich folk that would love to see Dean be DNC chair.
Best possible choice, IMO.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. And I am Dean person who loves Kucinich. Just a few cause the problems.
It is just a few, but a very vocal few. They manage to make us look very bad, and I have sometimes backed off. But I don't think I will anymore.

I remember watching Kucinich and Ritter on a committee to try to stop the war. I called his office to thank him. He impressed me, but there are several here who so resent that Dean grabbed more attention....that they transfer it.

It is a battle we need to work on.

To my hubby and me, Dean is a visionary, not perfect, not someone we always agree with....but a person who grabs the attention and holds on. We need that right now, very badly.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
42. Who are they? They are our OWN! Just remember what David Jones
did to Dean in Iowa and NH...running Osama ads against him. It's us again tearing our best and brightest to shreds with our pirhanna teeth.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. Yep, battle scars
If you can survive the Democratic primaries, you can survive anything.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
43. Well
I'm just a sad Democrat nowdays. My views on this stuff are pretty simple. I sense a vaccuum at the top. I don't hear any strong voices coming from the Dems at the top. Where are they? I'm tired of them being beholden to corporate interests the way the reps are.

I want populism. I want strength. I want LOUD VOICES from the top of the Democratic party. If I don't see Dems raising hell as much as the rules will allow them to on the floor of the Senate and the House, I will be sorely disappointed and saddened even further.

I still believe in what the Dem party stands for. But I feel.....adrift.

I like Dean. I don't want the same old, same old. But even if it isn't Dean, I just want someone willing to go to the mat for Dems and what we stand for. I want someone who will stand up and stay strong for all us "everyday Dems" out here.

I want someone who will fight like our lives depend on it. Because they just might.

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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
45. Hey, lets start the conspiracy theories now.
I heard Bill Clinton wrote a memo saying Dean was to frothy to be DNC chair. The DLC then used their mind control ray on the delegates to get them to vote for anyone except Dean.
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billie_ Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
49. I agree "Truth Hurts A Lot" we need the good Dr.Dean and his populist
message....

i am so sick us not fighting and going towards the right.....
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
51. It's never stopped.
Just take a look around DU, if you need proof.
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
56. Dean is GOOD for democracy!
I supported Kerry and still does, but also support Dean. And Clark.
And several others ;-) Clinton!

Dean is online, and I trust him because of that.
Kerry had the guts to fight for his country AND then ask questions about it - streetcred.
Imagine Clark instead of Rumschfeld. This is my wet dream.

But most of all I trust YOU people.
Does a political movement always need to develop into a monolithic charge for presidency?
The presidency should be the dessert after the long preparation for dinner, where the main course is a sound and effective party that people trust and want to vote for.

That takes some effort.
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DFLforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. Well said, mogster!


"Does a political movement always need to develop into a monolithic charge for presidency?
The presidency should be the dessert after the long preparation for dinner, where the main course is a sound and effective party that people trust and want to vote."


You cut right to the heart of the matter, though I think few are listening.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
64. It has to be done for the good of the party's funding.
Interesting diary at Kos today about the DLC's irrelevance. The new funding methods shown first by the Dean/Trippi team got their attention, the corporate funding of the DLC became/will become unnecessary.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
67. If Dean loses the corporatists have won
After the election for DNC chairman we will know who is welcome in the/our party and who is not.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
71. Geez, I've been coming in here a bit more and all I see are Dean
Up or Down posts. What's Up? Dean is fine. Dean is Dean.

It's the DNC that has a problem. The organization is out of touch with the people. The org has to decide what it's about, THEN elect a chairperson to carry out the agenda. If Dean gets the DNC Chair, great. Would I like to see someone more liberal? Yes. But Dean is a hell of a lot better than McCauliff, I think.

If DNC (Democrats) can't save social security or stop outsourcing or give us basic healthcare...then screw all of them. I take my vote elsewhere. In that case, I won't give a shit who gets the chair.

I'm sick of the two party system and the "lifer" politicians who don't know one whit about what life is like for the common man.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
72. A Major Problem With Dean Threads...
Is that they tend to be about whether he's more of a moderate, or more of a liberal. Half the people don't like him because he's too far to the left, and half don't like him because he's too far to the right. Then the Deaniacs step in and say "No, he's not really a moderate/liberal, he's really a liberal/moderate!" to which is said "He's for/against (fill in issue here), so he can't be a liberal/moderate!"

I have seen the same Deaniacs arguing both ways on different days, and I think y'all are cool, and I ain't trying to start nothing, I'm just saying...

I've also seen the same Dean-baiters arguing both ways on different days. I ain't trying to start nothing with y'all either, just telling it as I see it.

Hell, I've seen the same sniping about Kerry, and Clark, and Kucinich.

But the field has changed.

Is Bush a moderate or a conservative? To the conservatives he looks like a big-spending moderate, but to the moderates he looks like a goose-stepping, book-burning conservative.

Does being anti-war make someone liberal? Does being fiscally frugal make someone a conservative?

How about states' rights? Gun control? The Clean Air Act? Abortion? Cotton subsidies? The war on terror? Hunting? Teaching sex ed or evolution in schools? NAFTA? Israel? Human rights? Pre-emptive war? Torture? Stem cell research? Black box voting? Land mines? The Geneva Convention? The role of God in America today? The Second Coming, for crying out loud????

We're WAY down the rabbit hole here kids.

What made someone a liberal or conservative in 1968 is totally irrelevant.

In case nobody noticed, this fight is about more than who fought in Vietnam or who wants to cut or raise your taxes by 5 bucks a month.

We're fighting for the Constitution, and basic human rights, and basic, basic, basic respect for other nations and people that have done nothing to us.

We're also fighting to keep our economy out of the toilet, and to keep the dollar worth more than toilet paper for said toilet, even though the president is trying to bring about a fiscal crisis so he can abolish the social programs that keep this county from being a third world nation.

Lastly, we're fighting for a world that is worth living in, BECAUSE WE DON'T EXPECT TO BE RAPTURED NEXT WEEK AND WE'RE NOT TRYING TO BRING ABOUT ARMAGEDDON!!!!!!!
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