Why are we endlessly fighting wars over Howard Dean?

[liberalpragmatist]

I feel like I'm the only guy in the middle here. I was a strong Kerry supporter during the primaries (followed by Clark, Edwards, and Dean). I thought there were plenty of cons to Dean, as well as pros. Ultimately, I was glad that the nominee was Kerry and I still think Kerry would have made (perhaps someday WILL make?) a great President.

But that's no slam on Howard Dean. Frankly, I'm okay with him being DNC chair, and in fact I like the idea a lot. I also like Simon Rosenberg. Now, I also realize that plenty of people feel otherwise, but can we keep it civil?

Howard Dean is not the be-all-and-end-all of the Democratic Party. He's also not the disaster that they naysayers fear.

He's not the messiah. He's not the anti-Christ. He's not the conquering hero who will vanquish all the sclerotic Washington consultants with his bare fists, but neither is he some radical pinko who will destroy the party and make us forever unelectable.

He's a good guy with some good ideas, and of course, like every human being, some negatives. I'm quite sick of endlessly fighting wars over Howard Dean since the spring of 2003.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I am, too

Personally, I like Dean and his message. He's the only one I've heard speak out in the way I think Dems need to speak out. But if someone else gets the chair and is willing to fight instead of rolling over and playing dead, I'll be willing to support them.

[Pepperbelly]

2. I am with you 100% ...

It is boring, divisive, acrimonious to no end, and juvenile. I say that about ALL threads trashing our former candidates including Dean, Clark, Kerry, Sharpton, et al.

I guess they're entitled just as I am to totally avoid those bullshit threads. And I do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. In many ways I like Dean but he created much of this divisiveness

with his rhetoric..calling other Democrats including Kerry Republicans. In many ways Dean is to Democrats what Bush is to Republicans...some sort of mythical savior.

[hippiechick]

4. oooh, now there's some flamebait ....

:eyes:



:hippie:

[jpgray]

5. Both sides created it, in my view

When your own message isn't enough, you have to convince people the other guy/gal's message is shit. And that's the rule for everyone.

[blondeatlast]

9. Good point. nt

[ShaneGR]

7. That's my only reservation....

He plays the part of a uniter, but really he's not. That being said, I do appreciate a lot of what he says.

[XemaSab]

34. Join us....

Soon you will come to know the power of the Dean side....

Resistance is futile....

You will be assimilated....

:tinfoilhat:

[Cheswick2.0]

13. yeah...cause there's nothing divisive about those Osama adds Kerry

helped fund

[merh]

16. Nothing divisive about the flip flopper label Dean gave Kerry?

Get over it!

[Minstrel Boy]

18. Nothing incorrect about it,

if that's what you mean.

(ducking and covering)

[merh]

23. LOL - how's your belly button?

You know we all have them - just like opinions!

So tired of deaniacs whining that Kerry was mean to our man, but refusing to recognize how mean Dean was to his opponents. JFC, its the nature of politics and any competion!

No frying pans flying from over here. :hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

26. not even in the same league as the Osama adds Kerry pretended

he wasn't a part of. At least Dean isn't sneaky. But then that is what some of us like about him. I guess you need to get over that.

[merh]

29. yeah right

talk about someone needing to get over things. :silly:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. That's another thing..you can slam Kerry all day on this board but say one

thing about Dean..and you're persona non grata and you aren't a real progressive

[Pepperbelly]

20. true dat, Teena. nt

[JohnKleeb]

21. very true

[Cheswick2.0]

28. Unfortunately for you.......Kerry was the candidate so he is fair game

for all kinds of people, not just people who like Dean.
If people are attacking him right and left he's divisive, right? Isn't that YOUR definition? I would say there are way more people who say mean things about Kerry than do about Dean. That makes Kerry the real divisive candidate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Since the majority of Kerry hate is posted by Dean's disciples

I'd challenge that assertion...

[dolo amber]

32. Hey!

I resent that...I post plenty of Kerry *dislike*, but I was Clark all the way. Those Dean people are just crazy. They all do that scream, y'know...I hear them out in the woods on the night of the full moon. :scared:

:D

edit: See? Heh. :D

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1420722

[XemaSab]

35. The orange hats

Cover up the foil very nicely

:tinfoilhat:

[janx]

39. And the horns...

:evilgrin:

[PassingFair]

44. That is crappola!

Dean supporters do NOT post the majority of Kerry hate here. Whenever Dean's name shows up, there is a Manchurian Candidatelike response from about 5 posters on DU. They are helplessly drawn to the thread to spew their hatred and disdain not just at Dean, but at anyone who supports Dean.
WE merely defend ourselves.

[madfloridian]

49. I disagree with you on that.

I think the majority of criticism of Kerry is posted by folks who really have no agenda but dissension. Only a couple of Dean folks go after Kerry.

[KoKo]

62. Very few Kerry Haters.... Disappointed folks, though and they should be...

There's tremendous Kerry disappointment by many, but I've only seena very few Kerry "haters." A very few. There are folks angry about what David Jones did with Kerry and Gephardt behind the scenes to "knock down Dean" (Jones'words) early on before most supporters of his in other states had a chance to vote for him and it would seem to me that Dean supporters and campaigners have a right to anger over that. Especially since it was the Dean/Kucinich supporters who regrouped and fought in the grassroots in states against their own creaking Dem Party Machinery to GET OUT THE VOTE for KERRY! I worked with them here in North Carolina. They are the LIFE of the New Democratic Party. If they are angry with Kerry it's because they had to do a "switcheroo" and instead of sitting on their couches wallowing in sorrow over Dean they picked up their sorrows and went out there to work for Kerry!

I saw it here in NC and I see that the Dean/Kucinch folks are the ones still working on getting Voting reform and our vote counted. The mainstream party ops who were originally supporting Kerry...have fought us all the way...mostly by ignoring us...which is a silent form of fighting.

[quaker bill]

42. Sorry, the divisiveness existed before Dean.

He only pointed to the places where it already existed. That can be discomforting, but truth is often like that.

[madfloridian]

56. Yes, you are so right about that.

He was just the catalyst for the coming change.

[JNelson6563]

60. Voting with Shrub 72%

Yeah, way to take a stand for the little guy. Damn that Dean for suggesting our "leadership" tell the idiot usurper no.

Ugh.

Julie

[jarab]

6. If Dean is as divisive in the real world

as he is here .... why would we need someone at the DNC who's a wedge for Democrats?
Just asking ...
...O...

[quaker bill]

41. Both true and one of his better points.

It is a divisive world out there my friend. Get used to it.

Notice how the other side will run us over, then put it in reverse for another pass... Note that our representatives are not even invited to comittee meetings anymore...

[blondeatlast]

8. My sentiments exactly.

I never supported him as a primary candidate, but I definitely don't hate Dean.

I think he'sd be great as DNC chair, he and a couple of other candidates offer the grassroots a fine chance to take the party back from the DLC.

But I don't see the point in this endless Dean bashing/Dean victimization.

He's a fine person, he'd make a fine DNC chair. So would a couple of other candidates.

So what's the deal?

[Cheswick2.0]

11. there is no victimization

that is all in the minds of other posters.

[jpgray]

15. There is and was a ton of victim culture here

Especially during the primaries--I remember they even changed the rules of GD because of it.

[Cheswick2.0]

10. Who ever said he was the Messiah

I think most of us who have stuck with DFA are kind of tired of being told we treat him like the Messiah or that we think he is "the be all and end all of the democratic party".

But thanks for calling for an end to the flames.

DFA is out to change the party and make it more populist. We have plans and we are working on them. For some reason that pisses people off.

[Pepperbelly]

12. not me, bub ...

I wish you well.

I wish all of us well. We got some shit to do and it needs to be done quickly. 2006 looms, even as we speak.

[janx]

38. Yes, we do. And I just want to let you know that I laughed so hard at

a simile in one of your recent posts...something about how entrenched Dems should at least show the expression of a hound dog who stole fried chicken from the kitchen table!!

LOL! I laughed until I cried! (I know the expression...)

I don't do your writing justice here--but it was not lost on me. It was great.

[liberalpragmatist]

19. Hyperbole

I'm pointing to the extremes. There are plenty of less-rabid Dean supporters, and plenty of less-rabid non-Dean supporters - the "Silent Majority" if you will.

You're right - nobody has called Dean the messiah. But neither has anybody called Dean the antiChrist. It's hyperbole to illustrate that a segment of very vocal Dean supporters are treating him as though he is the only hope for the Democratic Party. Movements should be larger than one man. And to Dean's credit, I think he realizes that, what with DFA and all and his bid for the DNC chairmanship which is more about the party than him personally. But I really get annoyed when I see some Dean supporters acting as though he really is the only hope and that the party will whither and die without him. And I'm not saying you're one of them Cheswick, nor am I saying that a majority of Dean-supporters are that way.

[quaker bill]

43. Confronting people's erroneous assumptions

often will just irritate the crap out of them. That fact by no means relieves you of the duty to do it.

[Pirate Smile]

14. I agree, which is why I am actually trying to focus on ideas and not the

other crap.

I was for Dean in the primaries and just as strongly for Kerry in the general election. I feel a loyalty to both and get a bit irritated when people slam either.

Dean would be great as Chair of the DNC.

We need Kerry to be a very strong voice and spokesmen in the Senate.

We don't have many avenues to get much publicity so we need both of them doing their part - hopefully, with messages which are coordinated to some degree.

Here is a thread where I am trying to focus on ideas for the future regardless of who is doing the talking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1419868&mesg_id=1419868

[CatholicEdHead]

22. Simple

Because the media stuck it to him and made him a laughingstock when the YYYEEEAAAAGGHHHHHH clip came out.

He says the right things, but any public appearance will be marginalized with that sound clip being taken off the shelf for endless repetition.

[Radical Activist]

24. For some people on the board

their main purpose in posting and participating in DU is to promote Howard Dean for whatever he wants to be at the moment. That will always start a lot of discussion since Dean has also insulted and otherwise gotten on the nerves of a lot of Democrats, and not everyone is willing to accept his agenda. It's natural for there to be a lot of discussion since he is one of the biggest and most controversial figures in the Democratic Party right now.

[janx]

25. C'mon.

"for whatever he wants to be" ?

A lot of people want him to be DNC chair. That (and the successes of DFA) are the reasons his name keeps coming up.

I haven't promoted him for DNC chair. I do try to promote DFA though, because it's an solid organization that people can get involved with on a local basis.

[Radical Activist]

27. I mean

whether he wants to be DNC chair or run for President again in '08.

[cosmicdot]

31. I knew zilch about Terry McAuliffe ...

... when he became DNC chair ... and, really don't know that much about 'who he is' today, other than I expected more from the DNC under his 'leadership' during and after the Coup of 2000 and its on-going repercussions.

I believe the grassroots should have more say who becomes Chair and who operates and speaks for us.

fwiw ... Dr. Dean was my 2nd choice in the primaries.

I like knowing what I'm getting for a change ... I'm good with Dr. Dean ...

It's time to cut the corporate ties and strengthen the progressive populist ones.

I really don't want anyone with ties to the DLC nor any of its adjunct new dem organizations.

"The Next DNC Chair: Why You Should Care" - Arianna Huffington
http://www.ariannaonline.com/blog/index.php

~snip~
Will Democrats continue to toe the strategy line of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council that has brought them to the brink of permanent minority-party status? Or will they finally return to the party’s roots and recapture its lost political soul — and the White House and Congress with it?
~snip~

[DaveinMD]

33. I agree with this post

100 percent except that I supported Clark.

[mandyky]

36. Because Howard Dean has stayed visible

When he dropped out, he campaigned like mad for Kerry. Now that the election is over he's giving his opinion of the direction our party should take. He also supported about 100 Dean Dozen folks, and did a lot of campaigning for them too. I voted for Kerry because Dean asked us to, and I wanted Bush out. I think Dean would have been a better candidate but maybe we'll never know for sure.

Personally, I like a person who speaks their mind and that's Howard Dean for you. Some people here at DU didn't like some of what he said.
It is very easy to start a fight on DU, just make an outrageous statement you know others will react to, and step back so the crap doesn't splatter on your shoes. LOL

I remember before primaries really got in gear the fight provoking topic was Greens and Nader voters in 2000. Hopefully, noone takes the fighting to seriously, and it's a way to blow off steam. People are still hurting that we have to deal with 4 more years of the idiot cowboy - I am sure Dean and his supporters can buck up, hopefully the folks on the opposing view can, too.

[liberalpragmatist]

37. I'm not saying not to support him

If you want him as DNC chair, that's great. I'm not saying people shouldn't support him. Frankly, I think he'd make a great DNC chair, and I say that as a strong Kerry supporter.

My point is why is there such divisiveness? Posts on Dean tend to lean towards one extreme or the other - either saying he's the only true Democrat in the world and everyone else are corporate shills, or saying that he's a dangerous man who will destroy the Democratic Party.

So I'm saying let's be friends. Why are we fighting each other harder than we're fighting the Republicans? The whole thing seems rather silly to me.

[janx]

40. It is silly.

Especially since DFA is working hard to get Dems elected and welcomes everyone who wants to do so, whether they supported Dean previously or not.

[PassingFair]

46. There is shrillness...

because there are a handfull of posters on these boards that trash HD AND his supporters everytime his name comes up.
They use personal attacks and are extremely rude.
HD supporters are usually in defensive mode.

[madfloridian]

45. Because he is high-profile, and outspoken, and determined.

Whether he gets the DNC chair or not, he still will have a platform. I doubt very seriously he intends to fade quietly into the background. Neither do I. Nor do the over half a million who still support Democracy for America.

[DFLforever]

47. Dean's the man some LOVE to hate,

The last man I remember with this kind of magnetism in the party was Bobby Kennedy.

[zulchzulu]

48. It is always very tiresome seeing the Dean flame wars

Some are started by people who love Dean who are just picking for a "fight" over why anyone could not see Howard Dean as anything less than some perfect political rock star.

I like Dean. Didn't like him in the Primaries, but liked what he has said and done since. So shoot me.

As for him getting the Big Dem Chair, it would be cool...but if someone else got it, I wouldn't lose any sleep or go on some tirade that the Democratic Party is finished, Bush-lite, sold-out or on the way of the Whigs.

I could actually care less about Dean except that he's doing good work with DFA and makes some statements I agree with. I personally don't think he will ever be President...just like I know Kucinich will never be President. That's what I think, but I might be accused of being some kind of clueless demon because that's not my flavor of KoolAid. Oh wait...ah...whatever.

All this Dean (Is He God vs. He Is A Divider) crap is nothing more than a political parlor talk pissing contest than means nothing in the end.

Just to make this thread more interesting, I figured I'd throw in this graphic...

[janx]

50. Y'know Zulch...

I had actually reached a juncture at which I could respect your opinions and your humor.

It appears now that this period was brief.

You really don't know what the hell you are talking about, and you don't care. That much is clear to me now.

This kind of photoshop punkery is akin to freepland.

Good luck, man. You are going to need it.

[zulchzulu]

51. Well...ain't that "funny"

What's with the "good luck, man" bullshit? Yeah...I "don't care"...

Wait...you're a "peace" kinda feller. I've seen it all...

On edit:

I swear to "God" that I don't mean to offend...sometimes I look at all this Dean bantering and feel like I'm flashing back to where people said Yes was the greatest band EVER! Or that Jerry was GOD!

It's just a little hard to take after a while.

[NoPasaran]

52. LOL! Great graphic!

But just because Dean walks on water doesn't mean he's the Messiah!

[madfloridian]

53. What? He isn't? Are you sure?

I have worshipped him, and he is not the Messiah? :evilgrin:

[NoPasaran]

54. Sure, he can turn water into wine

But raising the dead? Nothing!

[mattclearing]

55. Who's fighting? Everybody Loves Howard Dean.

Dean is your God. He knows all, sees all. He can fix everything.

I thought this was common knowledge.

:D

[Withywindle]

57. Thank you!

It's unpleasant reading a lot of these threads if you believe we strongly need both John Kerry and Howard Dean. That they're both amazing men in their different ways, and the important thing is getting them where they can do the most good and supporting them when they try, not having playground fights over who can beat up who (or who did). And you can stick the names Clark, Edwards, Gore, Kucinich, Clinton, etc., etc. in there too. (Not Lieberman, though. I gotta draw the line somewhere.

So chalk me up as a strong post-primary Kerry supporter who also likes Howard Dean a lot and thinks he would be an EXCELLENT DNC chair.

[sampsonblk]

58. Because his importance goes beyond this years' primaries

Howard Dean fired up the party, but frightened the party's pragmatists. Now we are left to choose a way out of our current mess. The Dean way or some other direction? That is the question.

Note: Is there such a thing as a Kerry way? If so, I would love for someone to explain to me, in a hundred words or less, exactly what that is and where its going to take us.

[ever_green]

59. You're wrong. He is the messiah.

:) Go Dean!

[HR_Pufnstuf]

61. Its really about...

1) Small Business VS Corporations

2) Brady Boomers VS Baby Boomers

3) Techies VS Luddites

4) Digi VS Analog

5) New Economy VS Old Economy

6) pHisH VS U2

-------------------------------------

[Cuban_Liberal]

63. Beat someone with a chain, and the next time they hear links rattle...

I think the defensiveness on the part of the Dean folks is perfectly understandable, in light of what they underwent here during the primaries...

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

64. Thanks.

:hi:

[Cuban_Liberal]

65. YW.

:hi:

[KnowerOfLogic]

66. Dean is a *symbol* for the 'take no prisoners / speak truth to power'

approach vs. the "play it safe, aim for the middle, keep the corporate benefactors happy, principle-free political positioning" approach. That's where the battle in this party is right now, and that's why Dean is such a lightening rod.