Can Dean escape "I Have A Scream" speech image?

[Mike L]

I like Dean and his policies, but the DNC chair is a very visible position. I'm still a little embarrassed for Dean when he's on TV.

If Dean gets the job, will he be a running joke among repugs and Independents? It hit me how big the speech was when Dean was on TV after Iowa and my 10 year old came in the room. She asked, "Is that the crazy man"? I asked her why she thought Dean was crazy. Her reply: "I saw him on the news."

http://www.aginsights.com/dean.htm

[newsguyatl]

1. it ran its course a LONG time ago

in retrospect, it's been a wonderful thing, b/c it's made dean a vertibable celebrity.

[Mirwib]

72. I watched that speech live

and I loved it. It wasn't until later, and the media had to point this out to me (note the sarcasm please), that I found out it wasn't any good.

[MADem]

110. I saw it on TV

...and I agree with you. I couldn't understand why they kept harping on about it. It seemed somehow like a "target of opportunity" ploy to stick a long knife in Dean, and it appeared to be COORDINATED.

On the bright side, I think that signaled the beginning of the end of TV punditry. We have a long way to go before these assholes who call themselves reporters actually go back to REPORTING the news, but people are at least starting to wave the bullshit banner when they start going over the top on some of this stuff.

I think Dean is great. Whatever he does, he is an asset to us. We need a guy who speaks in concise, complete sentences, who uses the English that average people use everyday, who is not overwhelmed with his own hubris, and who can tell people to cut the crap with blazing, devastating accuracy. He resonates, like a firm, fair family doctor telling you to push your fat ass away from the table and go for a walk.

[Starlight]

127. The "controversy" was nothing but spin.

The Repubs are terrified of him.

[RetroLounge]

144. "The Repubs are terrified of him."

and quite a few Dems and so-called Dems.

Not to mention a handful of predicatable and obvious DU posters.

RL

[JohnOneillsMemory]

202. That scream personified his ability to excite and WHY he was killed off.

Dean's outraged voice and energetic yell brought on his media character assassination because-

He was both willing to fight back and effective in creating:
1)Awareness
2)Outrage
3)Action

But American 'Friendly Fascism' scientifically avoids these three thresholds with psy-ops and media complicity the way nuclear power plant technicians maintain 'safe' operating temperatures to avoid an unplanned and uncontrolled 'event.'

And that 'event' is...Democracy.

Howard Dean is the melt-down of complacency the fascists most fear.

So his best leadership qualities were 'Orwellified' into an 'unpresidential liability.'

[NEOBuckeye]

2. Oh, Stop already

All we have to do is bring up any one of a gazillion flubs that Bush Minor has made over the past four years. Any one of them is as bad or worse than Dean's mic problems. :eyes:

[mimitabby]

3. hey, i've already forgotten it!

[Placebo]

4. Someone on Crossfire (I think) made a good point today...

that the DNC chair deals a lot/mostly with organizational issues and not as much about being a spokesperson for the party. So, I'm not sure if Dean has much experience in the organization department.

[madfloridian]

13. LOL 12 years as governor might qualify him a little wee bit.

That someone was Tucker Bowtie Carlson.

[Placebo]

26. No, actually, you're wrong, it WASN'T.

It was Jenny Backus, a Democratic Strategist.

From the transcript:

BACKUS: Well, again -- first of all, there's a couple of important things people should remember about Howard Dean.

One lesson that Howard Dean learned that the Republican are going to use and McCain already uses is empowerment. One of the things that Howard Dean talked about is that you have the ability to change your world. He also helped us realize what a powerful tool the Internet is. And that's going to be the great equalizer, I think, between the two parties going forward. We have a way to make money now.

And before, we used to have to make campaign decisions on how much money are we going to have? Are we going to be able to play just 18 states? Can we expand the field? Now, thanks to Terry McAuliffe -- and I agree with Paul said earlier -- McAuliffe has given us a sort of machine. And now we're looking for the person to drive the machine.

I don't necessarily think that it will be Howard Dean, but, you know...

and then later:

CARLSON: And, Jenny, you were just saying nice things about Howard Dean the other day, as Democrats do. They feel an obligation. In two sentences, why shouldn't he be DNC chairman?

BACKUS: I think that the one thing that we want from a DNC chairman is somebody who is more, I personally think of more of a day- to-day tactician, who can figure out a strategy.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/10/cf.01.html

[madfloridian]

31. Oh, well then, he must not be organized at all. A Democrat said so.

Poor Dean, he is such a stupid nobody, that all these new attacks are coming.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

36. I bet you were very eager to slap down a fellow democrat...

[Placebo]

86. Why would you say that?

There was an error, so I corrected the person. Democrat or not.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

133. Because you have a history of Slapping people down if they support dean

no matter what. It's an on going pattern you know

[ProudToBeLiberal]

14. Umm Also Dean was once chairman of the Governor's Council...

[ProudToBeLiberal]

5. yeeeeeeeeaaaaaarrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhh

[JaneQPublic]

34. "I sound my barbaric YAWP over the roofs of the world." --Walt Whitman

Will Howard Dean live down the scream?

Did George W. live down choking on a pretzel?

Did Bill Clinton live down getting felated by an intern in the Oval Office?

Did George H.W. live down puking on a foreign head of state?

Did Ronald Reagan live down joking on a microphone he thought was off that he had started bombing Moscow?

Did Jimmy Carter live down telling a magazine interview that he "lusted in his heart"?

Did Gerald Ford live down hitting someone in the head with a golf ball?

The answer is that although the jokes continued, their political careers were not ended by the event. Indeed all of these men carried on to embarrass themselves another day.

[janx]

6. Escape it? He's capitalizing on it.

Man, even freepers love the remixes that were done using it.

[Mike L]

16. Those remixes were fun, but.........

I think the "crazy" image will stick with a lot of people.

[janx]

22. HA! No, I don't think so. That little sound bite was effectively

distorted by the media at first, but then it was used and enjoyed very creatively by the American people. Even freepers enjoyed it--some not even negatively.

[madfloridian]

24. So why do you link to one?

.

[Ladyhawk]

7. He got character assassinated, but I'm not sure the perception will last.

He's joked about it with his Yahoo ads...funny stuff. I think he has a pretty decent personality that will come through if he is put into a position of power.

However, the non-political and the Repubs may remember the "scream" forever. Personally, I think what the media did was lame and uncalled-for, but for those who don't think for themselves, it may be the magic bullet that kills Dean's career.

Personally, I like the man immensely. He is one of the few Dems with a backbone. However, I'm not sure why he isn't applying it to the possible fraud situation. :shrug:

[Mike L]

19. "He's joked about it with his Yahoo ads...funny stuff."

I haven't seen those. Anybody got a link?

[madfloridian]

27. Just do a search on it. He is making loads of money on it.

Just search on it.

[Us vs Them]

8. Let's make a pact to forget about it, yeah?

You don't say anything if we don't.

[Diane L]

9. Howard Dean has earned the DNC chair -

I never did see anything wrong with the so-called "scream". The media and the Republicans just wouldn't let it go. I would like to scream at Bush.

[Ms_Mary]

11. Certainly not so bad as running over top of your debate mod. nt

[killbotfactory]

10. I think media bigshots still get aroused thinking about it

He's not as evil as Hitler, might as well give him a chance.

[SmokingJacket]

12. To what are you referring?

I know of no "scream."

Dean is my man.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

15. Back off!!! He's mine grrrr

[madfloridian]

17. Well, then he mustn't be let out in public.

I do hope you educated your daughter on how the media acts, if not she will be a right winger she is grown up.

If it embarasses you don't watch.

[Mike L]

29. No, I just took it in as a good indicator of how the average voter

thinks. 10 year old = average American voter.....yeah, that's about right.

[madfloridian]

35. I taught that age for years...Did you tell her about the media?

That poor girl, she really needs some talking to about things in this world.

[madfloridian]

37. Whoa! just caught that. You compared your 10 yr old to average voters.

LOL

[ShaneGR]

18. Of course it will be....

The stream of "EEEAAAAHHHHHHH" coming from talk radio, television broadcasts, etc. will be deafening for a long long time.

[madfloridian]

20. Love your remix. Sorry it embarrasses you so.

So what else embarasses you, and your sweet little 10 year old. I was a teacher, so I hope you let her know about how the media acts.

[chookie]

30. Thanks for pointing that out

I'm with you. I'd have used the opportunity to straighten the kid out, and explain what brainwashing is, and what character assassination is -- because this is the reality they are growing up in.

I'd handle it the same way if my sweet little innocent child told me "2+2=5"

[madfloridian]

21. This is very obvious flamebait, and it is adding to problems here.

It is hard to hold discussions when something so obvious is happening.

[Mike L]

39. Why are reasonable questions "flamebait'?

Dean has an image problem. Many people won't take him seriously because of Iowa. Mockery is one of the most effective forms of attack. Will Dean have credibility when he is speaking for the Dem Party?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

40. dude look at what you wrote

George W Bush is the one with the image problem. I mean people think he's a simpleton, and he has still overcome that image.

[Mike L]

48. I think that's a different image problem.

Hey, we saw that substance doesn't matter. All that matters is perception.

I only asked whether Dean can overcome his image problem. Maybe he can, but it will be tough.

[madfloridian]

50. He is well on the way to doing it. How is your daughter?

Is she smart enough to be the average voter? Do you set her straight on the media?

[madfloridian]

45. If you let your daughter think Dean is crazy, then you have the problem.

Yes, you do.

[Mike L]

52. You completely missed the point and changed the subject.

[madfloridian]

53. You link to MoveOn and make fun of Howard Dean?

I did not miss your point. You meant to make Dean supporters angry,and you did. But we are so so so used to it. It is going to be a bumpy ride, and we are so so so ready.

[Mike L]

61. I didn't make fun of Dean. I like his policies.

I'm asking a legitimate question. I wish we'd asked more questions about Kerry before he got the nomination.

[madfloridian]

65. There are ways to ask legit questions.

Saying your daughter thinks Dean is crazy is divisive. I could say a lot of things about the other candidates. They have all had their foolish, silly moments. I don't, because it is rude.

[Mike L]

73. I used my daughter an an example for illustrative purposes.

A political event is big when even little kids know about it.

You've said that Dean can overcome this. Thanks for your input.

[madfloridian]

78. Here is what you said. It was very divisive.

QUOTE: "I'm still a little embarrassed for Dean when he's on TV. "
If Dean gets the job, will he be a running joke among repugs and Independents? It hit me how big the speech was when Dean was on TV after Iowa and my 10 year old came in the room. She asked, "Is that the crazy man"?

Now, I have my opinions of the other candidates, of the presidential candidates, and the DNC chair candidates....I do NOT make fun of them.

I was taught it was rude, and I just don't do it. There are so many rude things I could say. I have a huge stash of things all the candidates have said. I don't use them, because I think it is rude.

This board is getting out of control with attacks on everyone. It is becoming sad.

[Mike L]

80. Whatever. I was making a political observation and giving an example.

I'm sorry the content wasn't flattering to Dr. Dean. It WAS honest.

[madfloridian]

101. You meant it that way. It is very sad about your daughter.

It is sad she is so vulnerable to what the media says.

[RetroLounge]

145. You are assuing she actually said that

and is not being used by the OP as just another Dean Bash.

Personally, I call bullshit.

RL

[Mike L]

165. I assure you, she said that.

[chookie]

23. Yeah, we need to find someone totally unoffensive.

Yeah, really Dems, we need to get honest with ourselves and find a candidate that appeals to extremist Republicans. /sarcasm

Aw, it's so cute to hear the kiddies repeat Republican talking points just like we're all supposed to. I guess they'll be turning us into Kerik for thought crimes next -- how sweet.

Howard Dean gives a "yee-haw!" speech to supporters, and is nailed endlessly about it, to the point that it's all that the Sheeple know about him. Rove scores again!

Imagine if they'd have run Condi's little performance regarding the August 2001 PDB over and over and over and over and over and over. Imagine if they had bothered to show smirky's psycho meltdown during the debates over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And then there's the little matter of lying about Saddam Hussein to justify hijacking his people, and when you totally BUNGLE the operation, slaughter innocent people.

But no. That ten year old will likely to know Condi as "a beautiful and accomplished woman" and Georgie as a "tough leader with strong resolve who loves our troops and our flag" -- not as the incompetent and dastardly fuckups they really are.

Listen -- we could run JESUS CHRIST as our candidate, and the Republican Death Star would crucify him a second time. Gee, maybe they could show footage of him cursing the fig tree (Rush: "Hey folks, here's a guy who talks to PLANTS!") or Wolf Blitzer can show the scary scary scary scene where Jesus "totally freaks out" and smashes the tables of the money-changers inside the temple (Sean: "He's emotionally unstable, folks!") (Delay: "He was violently interferring with commerce. He doesn't care about the jobs these money-changers provide!")

Do you really think ANYONE is going to be accepted by "them"? No way.

Propaganda. It has nothing to do with facts -- everything with manipulating perceptions.

Funny how the fucking Republicans could run a Weasel/Swine ticket and win, and we would lose with Jesus/God the Father.

[madfloridian]

25. And people say we Dean supporters are divisive? This is divisive.

.

[Individualist]

28. Did you explain

to your daughter that people yell at pep rallies?

[madfloridian]

32. Wow, it is increasing since David Jones admitted they took him down.

Guilty feelings, you think?

Ah, yes. We Dean folks are so divisive.

[madfloridian]

33. Check out his link, ask him why he doesn't set daughter straight?

Hmmm.......

[madfloridian]

38. It is not Dean supporters who cause conflicts here.

It is posts that try to divide.

Bet this will make a 300 long thread.

[Mike L]

43. Certainly. Let's just pretend the issue doesn't exist. That will make it

go away.

I wish we'd taken a harder look at Kerry too before the primaries.

[madfloridian]

46. You are the one making the big deal.

When they played it on Crossfire today, they were nervous. They knew they were overdoing it. The audience hardly responded. This is the kind of thread that makes me furious. It is so divisive, and it is meant to be that way.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

63. No, calling me "bent" is wrong. It does not bother me.

I consider you did this on purpose, and I think it is wrong. I think it is very divisive.

[Mike L]

66. You're wrong.

It's a legitimate question.

[madfloridian]

70. You called me a name. That tells it all.

When you included your daughter's opinion, it became flamebait. And you knew it, I think.

[Mike L]

77. "bent", as in 'bent out of shape', or agitated.

I wasn't calling you a name.

[madfloridian]

79. No, I am neither. I am neither. Keep on, please.

.

[Leilani]

59. As a Clark supporter, I sympathize

there is a Clark thread close to 300 posts long, with every whacko Clark hater coming out of the woodwork.

Then, if Clark supporters defend him, we're called devisive, or a lot worse.

But the Clark conspiracies have been very creative.

[madfloridian]

62. You are so right. The attacks are ruining this board.

And it goes on and on and on. This is just ruining DU.

[pleiku52cab]

41. I hope all saw the post here months ago (sorry no link)

that showed and reran the scream from the perspective of ten(?) feet away. It couldn't even be heard due to crowd noise. His emotional yell to his supporters only turned into a scream when played back by his opponents from the recording equipment that filtered out other noise from the microphone he was using. Always been a Kerry supporter, but Dean really got shafted on this one.

[madfloridian]

49. This thread was meant to make us mad.

It is called flamebait. It is a shame,though, and you are mostly right.

[Clarkie1]

42. Not in this universe

[ProudToBeLiberal]

44. luckily you and I don't live in the same universe nt

[janx]

47. Not my universe either. Thank God.

[madfloridian]

51. Nor mine. This appears to be flamebait.

But then what the hell do I know?

[janx]

55. You know a lot.

:hug:

[madfloridian]

57. I know BS when I see it. LOL

I know it will reach 300 or more. Just nonsense stuff.

[SheathedPeace]

54. I hear the scream often on Air America Radio

Hard to escape what has become so common.

[madfloridian]

56. They play it because they understand why.

If it bothers you, don't listen.

[SheathedPeace]

67. It doesn't bother me

Nor did I indicate that it did. Read my post again.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. Can Mark Warner escape that he's another boring centrist pasty faced

southerner?

[Mike L]

82. "another"?

[Cheswick2.0]

85. hey don't get me wrong.......

there's nothing wrong with that. But Edwards ran this year and Warner seems to be a retread. I don't see how he gets past that problem.

[Mike L]

89. What problem?

[Cheswick2.0]

64. Can Mark Warner escape the problem of his wife not using his name?

Even Hillary Clinton had to use Clinton. I think Ms. Collis had better change it now before people notice.

[Mike L]

84. Ms Heinz only changed hers when Kerry decided to run.

[Cheswick2.0]

90. yeah and look how well that worked out

:hi:

[Mike L]

96. I think THAT was the least of Kerry's problems.

[Cheswick2.0]

113. I think it was a big problem

the average middle class white voter doesn't like women who keep their own names in marriage. Hillary changed hers and because of the personal charm of her husband it didn't hurt him too much.
Warner isn't nearly that charming.

[Cheswick2.0]

68. Can Mark Warner escape the fact that he wants to raise penalties on drug

use?
The liberal base of this party will leave in droves.

[Mike L]

88. Yeah, right.

"The liberal base of this party will leave in droves."

Are you saying Dems are soft on crime or use illegal drugs? Maybe he'll lose some Libertarian votes, which he wouldn't get anyway.

[Cheswick2.0]

92. democrats are not generally for increasing penalties for using

drugs or other drug crime. Is that really news to you?

[Mike L]

100. Bad news.

[Bouncy Ball]

69. Man

all this hand-wringing over what?

Big whoop. bush sat his ass in a classroom reading about goats while we were fucking being ATTACKED by terrorists. But somehow he gets a fucking pass on that shit, while Dean gets raked over the coals (and by other Dems, no less) for getting too enthusiastic while his crowd of supporters were cheering him. What a fucking crime.

:eyes:

Puh-leez.

[madfloridian]

71. It is being done for a reason, you know.

Wonder how long this one will get.

[UVASAM1]

74. doubtful

no. but i'm not sure it matters with the DLC chair. most voters dont pay attention to those guys anyway. does your avg voter know who ed gillespie is? Or even macaullife?

[Bouncy Ball]

76. Before about 2002

I had no idea there WAS a DNC chair. Much less who it was.

No it won't matter. It's a bunch of bullshit.

And I think it would be helpful if more Dems saw these things for what they really are--right wing smear jobs. And did NOT give them any legitimacy.

[Cheswick2.0]

75. Can Mark Warner escape that he is for laying off government workers

?

[Mike L]

105. Oh, you mean he's for balancing the budget and smaller federal government.

That should help him.

[Cheswick2.0]

that's what I said, he's for forcing democratic union government

workers on unemployment. That's not going to help at all.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. Don't you think Mark Warner looks a bit like a Klan member?

He has those weasly features and his eyes are kind of squinty. I was looking at his web site the other day and my daughter came in and she said "mommy is he one of those southern Chauvinists who want to make the democratic party just like the republicans"?

[Bouncy Ball]

83. Oh my gosh

my daughter said the same thing!

[Cheswick2.0]

94. it just goes to show how pervasive that attitude is amoung people

when even our daughters notice ..........

[Mike L]

109. Why don't you just call him part of the "white man party" like you usually

do?

Talk about stereotyping. Did you realize you just made a racist remark?

[Cheswick2.0]

111. what remark was that?

You do know there is only one race right? The human race.

[Cheswick2.0]

112. Ps.... I love it when white men complain about being victims of Racism

they have no clue.

White guy backlash, Wooooooo Hooooooo... poor poor pitiful picked on upper middle class white men.

[Mike L]

115. It's still racism and sexism. It stereotypes people by race AND gender.

And you have pushed it to include regional origin. Congratulations.

[Individualist]

95. Dang

so did the little boy who lives next door to me.

[Cheswick2.0]

104. smart boy n/t

[Individualist]

108. Yeah!

And I took it as a good indicator of how the average American voter thinks.

[UVASAM1]

87. might as well

nominate warner. he wont have anything else to do. with va's stupid law, he cant run for reelection. i doubt he would challenge Allen.
what else does he have to do?

[Cheswick2.0]

98. Sure what's another cookie cutter moderate republican lite

white guy? Maybe people will think he IS John Edwards and vote for him by accident.

[UVASAM1]

102. i personally

dislike him. my fault -- my sarcasm didnt come across well. :) i think he gets waaaay too much credit, and people automatically jump on his bandwagon b/c he is a dem governor in a red state. i know he ran against mark earley, who was just a terrible candidate, and who followed a r administration that was unpopular at election time. when people talk about him running for prez, i cringe. i wouldnt mind seeing Brazille, but honestly i dont know what to do

[Cheswick2.0]

106. I got your sarcasm

I agree with you.

[JPace]

91. Not as long as the repugs own the media, every time he starts

to get popular again or becomes too challenging they will air his primal screaming again. It is similar to Clinton's affair, they have branded him for life with it. They are the party of destruction with killer instincts. Look at what they did to Kerry with the Swift Boat ads.....they have the media, they can do anything now.

There is no winning anymore unless the left gets maim=n media outlets of their own to counter....otherwise it is hopeless. :-(

[madfloridian]

97. Not just the media, Democrats as well.

They come out in force. In the long run, Dean can't lose. He probably won't get DNC chair, but there are still well over half a million very loyal DFAers. I think there are more now, but they are not releasing figures much anymore.

He still has a base, though he is just honorary chair now.

I just get mad at the way the attacks keep on here.

[madfloridian]

93. Dean was right about Saddam....he got blasted for that.

Let's examine other candidates' statements on it:

Howard Dean on Saddam's capture:
SNIP.."He called Saddam's capture "a good thing which I hope very much will keep our soldiers in Iraq and around the world safer. But the capture of Saddam has not made America safer."

Attacks on him from others:
SNIP.."•Lieberman: "Howard Dean has climbed into his own spider hole of denial if he believes that the capture of Saddam Hussein has not made America safer. Saddam Hussein is a homicidal maniac, brutal dictator, supporter of terrorism and enemy of the United States, and there should be no doubt that America and the world are safer with him captured."

SNIP:..Kerry: "The post-Saddam Hussein Democratic presidential campaign heated up Tuesday as John Kerry charged that front-runner Howard Dean is unfit for the White House and unlikely to reach it.
"Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein and who believe today that we are not safer with his capture don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected," the Massachusetts senator said in a speech at Drake University."

Yet Dean was proven right, and Kerry was saying those very words Dean used by the last weeks of campaigning.

Well, I just thought when we got threads like this, maybe changing the subject a little would help.

Dean was right after all, and he is a pretty smart guy, spider hole of denial and all. We know that because Kerry was using his very words later on.

Oh, yes, Dean screamed once upon a time.

[madfloridian]

99. I'll see what else I can find.

Let's keep it informative.

[212demop]

103. God, I thought he already did. I enjoy the scream now. n/t

[madfloridian]

107. Post 105 about that crazy old Howard Dean.

There is more hatred at this board than among real Republicans. I wonder what the heck is going on.

[MissB]

114. Any time I read a post that starts with

"I really like X, but...." then I know exactly what is going on. :shrug:

Don't let it get to you. I think Pitt had a great response to stuff like this- Pcheez. I've seen at least one reply like that here. Dismiss it.

[madfloridian]

117. I thought I would add some other things to the discussion......

to make it more interesting, not just concentrate on the scream. I know what they are doing. I don't really care for me. I care for the foolish way it makes DU look, it is sad.

See my post below.

[madfloridian]

116. Even Saletan defended once the "new bum rap on Howard Dean"

From November 5, 2003. An unusual defense of Howard Dean. This is when Edwards said on TV...we don't need you telling us about race in the south. Then during the primaries another candidate paid for rallies with Confederate flags. Just thought I would keep this interesting. Enough about the scream already. Read all of this article.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090775/

SNIP..."The headline coming out of this debate is the pounding Howard Dean took for saying he wants the votes of guys whose trucks sport Confederate flags. It's a bum rap.

For days, Dean's opponents have assailed his flag comment. A few minutes into Tuesday's debate, a questioner told Dean, "I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended."

Note the first three words: "I recently read …" The questioner was obviously unaware that Dean has used this line all year. Had the questioner heard Dean's previous speeches, such as the one Dean delivered to the Democratic National Committee in February, he would have known exactly what Dean meant. As Dean put it on that occasion:

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

I have that speech on videotape. I'm looking at it right now. As Dean delivers the line about Confederate flags, the whole front section of the audience stands and applauds. It's a pretty white crowd, but in slow-motion playback, I can make out three black people in the crowd and two more on the dais, including DNC Vice Chair Lottie Shackelford. Every one of them is standing and applauding. As Dean finishes his speech, a dozen more black spectators rise to join in an ovation. They show no doubt or unease about what Dean meant. He wasn't condoning racism. He was saying that his party shouldn't write off people who share its economic philosophy just because they don't yet share its understanding of civil rights."

SNIP..."If Sharpton was presumptuous in his representation of blacks, John Edwards was hypocritical in his representation of Southerners. "The last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do," Edwards told Dean in the debate."

Actually Dean spoke in a pretty common sense way. But he had attacked the party leaders....and he had to go. And he screamed, and a lot of supporters did as well.

[madfloridian]

118. In fact, a pic of it happening at Dartmouth......hmmm..

This was apparently paid for by another Democratic candidate. I just thought it was pretty gracious of Howard Dean to take this everytime he went to NH.

[madfloridian]

131. This was sad, and he was gracious.

This is what our party politics are about now.

Gephardt for DNC chair. He's nice, and he would be not so outspoken.

[madfloridian]

136. Another sad moment from another rally.

Again instigated by fellow Democrats. Dean again was gracious, because he knew what he had really said. See them laughing. Very disruptive in NH.

[XemaSab]

119. That's what I love about Dean

He's not afraid to tackle these issues, and he's not afraid to admit areas where he could work on himself. Like when he went to college, and asked to be placed with black roommates. How many white people would do that?

[PurityOfEssence]

120. Absolutely. No problem.

Any embarrassment from that moment will yield more affection than derision. He meant--and means--something to many, and a lot of that was from his combative pronouncement of being representative of the "democratic wing of the Democratic Party". The fact that he was more centrist than most of the others running at the time got lost in the furore of the moment, and by not having to be held to account for a vote on the IWR, he could speak freely in a way others couldn't.

I have great problems with the guy, but he's still an important and upright voice in this world; he's secured his foothold for future achievment (not personal achievement, achievement for the many) and he is a very important voice for the future. He misrepresented the votes of the other candidates (they didn't vote for the tax cuts) and made many missteps along the way, but he's got a heart and a brain, and he's touched many in ways that will be easily rekindled.

With a personality that chafes against the smoothness necessary in major politics, I don't think his best contribution would be as DNC head, but I'd be fine with it for this reason: he'd throw it in the face of the enemy, and they'd have to deal with it. He would be a good Senator, Cabinet Member, Ambassador to the UN, and even President, but he needs a bit of seasoning and time spent fence-mending.

Born to privilege, he "gets it". This is crucial: the binding together of the divisions of this country would be well served by someone of the ruling class championing the have-nots. That's why I like FDR, and that's why I like Kerry. As John Edwards pointed out when slagged in a primary debate, Kerry and Dean were born to comfort, yet they truly understand, and that's to their credit on a deep personal level.

The scream? Fuck no; that's actually a good ice-breaker for times to come. Many appearances will be started with that, and he can smile and admit his mistaken exhuberance of the moment, and this will endear him to many. That's how American anti-intellectualism works: it's actually a real advantage for him for the battles that await us.

If for nothing else, he's incredibly important for the hatred engendered among the reactionaries. He's unbowed, and he stood with his party. He wasn't a virtuecrat like Jerry Brown, not standing with the ticket in '92, he stood with his brothers and sisters.

It's probably best for the DNC chair to be someone with out major office-holding ambitions. We shall see.

The REAL issue is taking out the House in '06. This is VERY possible, although the most important tactical issue at hand is getting rid of unverifiable electonic voting.

[madfloridian]

121. Mike Malloy just now....hilarious.

He said the other Dems heard Dean attacking what they were doing, they said boy sit down and shut up....and then he says they ran screaming into the woods. LOL

[zulchzulu]

123. Sometimes Malloy is full of shit

I heard his tired rant. He acts like Howard was beat by the "dark forces"...Dean was beat by Dean.

Why doesn't Malloy mention that Trippi wasn't even returning his phone calls in Iowa? Too scared? Clueless? I remember Malloy being a hardcore Kucinich fan back then and not liking Dean...

Dean was spinning out of control with gaffes every other day leading up to the Iowa caucus. Reading about how the evil 527 ad knocked Dean off the lead and how he woulda, coulda, shoulda blah blah blah proves that he would have been hammered if he had made it to nominee.

Can't we stop this whole "victim" bullshit with Dean? His campaign had some great things and a lot of things that sunk his campaign. Let's stop with blaming others for what Dean should have or would have been able to overcome if his campaign was better.

Turn the page.

[madfloridian]

125. This was posted as flamebait. I would never do this.

But I will stand up and be counted from now on when the attacks occur. I do not get ugly, and Mike Malloy was right. Our Democrats did not want to hear that. Read my post below. Just trying to keep it interesting.

[zulchzulu]

122. No. Everyone thinks that Dean's scream was just a little hiccup...

Um...kidding.

Dean's scream will always be pinned to him historically. To think it won't be is delusional.

His scream by itself is one thing. Its context to his full speech that evening in Des Moines is another.

[madfloridian]

129. Aw, don't worry about it.

It won't really affect anymore than anything else.

[RetroLounge]

146. Your concern is truly touching

really.

and thanks for calling others delusional.

:eyes:

RL

[madfloridian]

124. Op Ed from 2002, Edwards insists war is necessary in Iraq.

Just to keep things from being boring, here is an interesting op ed by another candidate. He is saying it must be done, by any means. Sometime it is good to change the topic and find out more about other candidates.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2002/iraq-020919-usia01.htm

This byliner by John Edwards, U.S. Senator (Democrat-North Carolina),
first appeared in The Washington Post September 19 and is in the
public domain. No republication restrictions.)

Congress Must Be Clear
John Edwards

Quick Action Will Ensure that Politics Plays no Part in the Debate
About Iraq.

Fast congressional action to reinforce our resolve is more imperative,
not less, in light of Saddam Hussein's recent overture to allow U.N.
inspectors back into Iraq. That is a gambit we have seen before.
Congress needs to act now to make clear to our U.N. allies and to Iraq
that the United States will not stand for the usual half-measures or
delaying tactics.(He says we must go anyway, especially in light of the inspectors being let in because he is tricking us. Baloney.)

Drafting an appropriate resolution that a large majority of Congress
could support should not be difficult. The outlines of such a
resolution are already clear. In fact, the biggest debate right now is
over the politics of "timing."

There's no better way to remove politics from the process than to go
straight to a debate over substance. Quick, bipartisan congressional
action will ensure that politics plays no part in this debate. It will
also strengthen America's hand as we pursue support from the Security
Council and seek to enlist the cooperation of our allies.

The resolution should be strong and unambiguous. It should not be a
blank check for the administration, but neither should it try to
micromanage a war from Capitol Hill. It should spell out the broad
elements of a process that will preserve the legitimacy of American
actions, enhance international consensus and strengthen our global
leadership.

Here's what I believe the resolution should say. First and foremost,
it should clearly endorse the use of all necessary means to eliminate
the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

Second, the resolution should call for an effort to rally the
international community under a U.N. Security Council mandate. The
president's speech last week was an important first step, and his
belated diplomatic efforts have already borne fruit. At the same time,
we must not tie our own hands by requiring Security Council action.
Congress should authorize the United States to act with whatever
allies will join us if the Security Council is prevented from
supporting action to enforce the more than 16 resolutions against
Iraq."

Much more at the link. All are proven lies now. Howard Dean was right, maybe that is why he screamed. You think?

[zulchzulu]

130. Well...just to be fair...

"Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations," Dean said. "If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."
-Howard Dean (Feb. 20, 2003)

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index.html

Whoops! That was the same position as Bush... YYYEAAAAAAAAAAGGHHH!

[madfloridian]

132. Then why did the same article accuse him of "stirring up" anti-war.

Don't turn this around now. I have the original article where he said that and he was thinking out loud. The inspectors went in, and that was when he began to understand what was going on...the push to war...

SNIP.."He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice." the inspectors were in there and he said it in that context. You know that Zulch, you know that.

"Dean is stirring up antiwar people," a senior advisor to one of his Democratic opponents says. "They are against all war, not just against war without U.N. support. When we do go to war, and Dean says he's with our troops and president in time of national crisis, the antiwar activists he's cultivated will turn on him quickly."

Dean says that's fine, and denies that there's any inconsistency. "I think people are madly trying to find one," he says. "It's part of the game."

And he was right, it was all a game on the part of the others. We needed Iraq as the gateway. They knew it, and they were complicit in lying to the people.

[zulchzulu]

134. It was a quote by Dean...just as the Edwards quotes you pointed out

Mad, I know you have intense passion for Dean. I admire it and hope it helps fuel your grassroots efforts where you are.

Just as the quote I pointed out by Dean could be seen as only a portion of his full views, it is also a quote by him nonetheless. That's the ugly side of politics.

You chose what appears to be chest-beating by Edwards for the war, but his full opinion was also about the same as Dean's was...

As for antiwar people gravitating to Dean at that time because they viewed him as a "peacenik", I bet most didn't agree with his views on the first Gulf War, the Afghan war and his initial opinions on Iraq before he saw the opportunity to amend his position.

It's a complicated, nuanced issue...and personally being an antiwar demonstrator at that time who still found reasons to support Kerry, there isn't an easy answer.

[madfloridian]

135. Edwards wrote that in a powerfully passion way...he said it clearly.

Dean said loudly all the time he was NOT anti-war, just anti this war. It is wrong for them to paint him otherwise.

Our passion here for the movement Dean started is very alive. I have posted several times that 4 of 7 of our local DEC were Dean supporters....the new elected ones.

I do not have a mad passion for Dean, I have a passion for speaking clearly and saying what the hell you mean. None of us viewed him as a peacenik.

I have heard our canidates equivocate, spin, turn, twist all during this campaign. I think if Kerry and Edwards had just come out and said what they believed, it would have been felt to be honest. They never did.

My passion is because I called people every day about this damn war. We knew what it was about. It has divided my family, who are educated and intelligent enough to know better.

I hate this "passion" for Dean stuff. I have a passion for clarity and honesty. The others were not that way. They supported the war for empire, and they were afraid to be honest.

[lojasmo]

126. If you feel embarrrased for Dean, you have been hoodwinked.

So has your daughter.

Ces't la vie.

Dean doesn't have to escape the "scream" He's too busy helping to take the party back to worry about such tripe.

[madfloridian]

128. And if he doesn't get DNC.....guess what?

I would like that better. He still has DFA and can build it. Not a problem.

I am tired of this.

[lojasmo]

150. Yup, no problem. N/T

[okieinpain]

137. dean has handled that problem very well. give him the chair, if

he can pick up a few seats in 06, he will have the last laugh.

[madfloridian]

138. I hope he does not get it.

He was very good at traveling and working with the DFA dozens. The DNC does not want him, though he was a very moderate party type.

If he wants it badly, I hope so. I would prefer him to build DFA as a base.

[clarknyc]

139. Yes, he can.

Stop smearing an honorable man. Your story regarding your 10 year old daughter could have read (bold type):

It hit me how big the speech was when Dean was on TV after Iowa and my 10 year old came in the room. She asked, "Is that the crazy man"? I asked her why she thought Dean was crazy. Her reply: "Remember? I saw him on the news. You said he was crazy."

In my experience, 10 year olds still mostly reflect their parents attitudes...

[RetroLounge]

147. "mostly reflect their parents attitudes"

Exactly what I was thinking!

Nice call...

RL

[bklyncowgirl]

140. Sure. Get out there and be himself.

He's doing the right thing by using it as an icebreaker in his speeches and playing off it on those Yahoo ads.

Dean's a sharp quotable politician who when he's on his game is very good in interview situations. He's a funny guy who can occaisionally throw out something profound. Alot of people might tune in just for the entertainment value.

If he got the DNC chair there'd be a round of SCREAM reruns for sure but if the guy can get his message out that would counteract the crazy image.

I'm looking forward to watching him on Meet the Press this Sunday to see what he has to say.

[sampsonblk]

141. It was never a big deal

The whole scream thing was stupid and cost us a good candidate.

[spguilty]

142. never

[madfloridian]

143. Feb. 2004, a Winning Day for the Democrats...DLC brags.

Ok, if this is going to be continued and go on and on...let's keep it interesting. Add some more info. Here is a gloating article from the DLC in February, so happy Dean is out.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252372&kaid=131&subid=192

DLC | New Dem Daily | February 4, 2004
A Winning Day for Democrats

Yesterday's five presidential primaries and two caucuses, held in far-flung regions of the country, confirmed that Democrats are looking for a mainstream candidate who can build on the Clinton legacy and challenge George W. Bush with a strong critique and a positive alternative agenda.

All three of the day's "winners" fit that profile. They include the clear front-runner, Sen. John Kerry, who won Missouri, Arizona, New Mexico, North Dakota, and Delaware; his leading challenger since Iowa, Sen. John Edwards, who won South Carolina; and Gen. Wesley Clark, who won a photo finish with Edwards in Oklahoma. No matter which man Democrats choose as their nominee, they've already made a wise choice about the kind of party, and the kind of campaign against George W. Bush, they really want.

And the old Nationalism thingy:
SNIP..."But what Lieberman in his gracious concession speech last night called the "larger purpose" of his campaign was vindicated: a vision of the Democratic Party that puts "the national interest above special interests and partisan interests," and a determination to fight against any abandonment of the New Democrat reforms and accomplishments of the Clinton era. Indeed, it was the emergence of other strong candidates willing to fight for that kind of party that ultimately crowded out Lieberman's own campaign....."

And they paid for rallies like this to their shame. To their utter shame. And they are proud of it, paying for the flag rallies. See the flag right up in Dean's face? He was gracious. So if we are going to continue the hateful postings, let's broaden the topics.

[Seabiscuit]

148. IMHO,

As a presidential candidate in 2008? No.

As a candidate to Chair the DNC beginning in 2005? Yes.

[madfloridian]

149. Ok, more I found out about the ad. Missed this. Keeping it varied.

I figure as long as the threads like this get over 300 or more, we might as well learn varied things. Here is a diary from Kos about just how determined they were to bring this guy down, and this was before the scream. Talk about hating your own? Isn't it sad? Maybe this is one reason he screamed.

http://nupstateny.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/7/195243/429

SNIP.."Last night David Jones of Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values was on a C-SPAN program called "527s in 2004: Did They Make A Difference?" C-SPAN is often quite dull but Mr Jones description of how he, 20 big money donors, and his 527 torpedoed Dean was stunning.

SNIP..."The most disheartening thing to me about "Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values" was Mr Jones admitting it's $600,000 was raised from only 20 donors, all Democrats. That's an average of $30,000 per donor. This hit squad intentionally quit running ads early to avoid disclosure rules though Mr Jones does say the money was from Kerry and Gephardt backers...."

And a fellow Dem or Dems paid for this rally at Dartmouth, to their shame. Doesn't it look like fun? They are all laughing, just like David Jones was.

[XemaSab]

153. Question

Does anyone know which dem or dems were behind this?

[madfloridian]

154. The campaign knew, they won't say.

Better they don't. Many have suspicions, but names are best left unsaid. Thanks for asking, it is an outrage.

[XemaSab]

155. Dean is a gentleman

Dean has been the victim of so many awful campaign tactics, but he doesn't retaliate by "outing" the people responsible.

I really respect that.

[madfloridian]

159. He did mention the civil unions slam by Clinton.

He did say in the book that Clinton before Iowa was calling Dean supporters to get them to vote for Clark. He was telling them Dean was unelectable because he signed the civil unions bill in VT.

I think he did that for a reason. One of the people Clinton called was gay, and he contacted the campaign. Also so many of the Dean supporter were gay,and they deserved to know this.

I think he was right to call it to their attention.

No one, I mean, no one deserves what they did to him. No one.

[blurp]

151. Don't be embarrassed. Dean didn't do anything wrong.

I thought "the scream" was totally overblown.

Part of me LIKED to see someone with some real energy.

[greenohio]

152. Why run from it? Embrace it. It shows passion.

He got a raw deal when the conspiracy brought him down.

[IronLionZion]

156. I loved it

I saw it live on TV as it happened and thought it was awesome! He expressed what many of us were feeling. That we can win those other states and take back America.

It was only later on that the media told me it was bad. It's a good thing I have the media tell me what to think. :eyes:

[greenohio]

158. MSM sure makes life easier doesn't it?

saves us from all that thinking. Thinking hurts you know.

A mind is a terrible thing.

[Radical Activist]

157. Can DU escape endless Dean threads?

I guess the DFA assignment of the week/month is to campaign for Dean for DNC chair. There are certainly more than enough threads trying to accomplish that every day lately.

[madfloridian]

160. Then some might feel lonely.

Some watch all the threads. BTW, this one was not started by DFA folks. It was started as flamebait.

[janx]

161. We have to find some way to keep you happy, RA!

;-)

Actually, the original poster was a MOLE dispatched by DFA to DU for exactly the purpose you cite. It's just a bunch of bloody psyops. Really!

:evilgrin:

[Radical Activist]

162. hehe that was funny

i feel the love :)

[janx]

163. I'm just kidding you.

I get tired of acrimony after awhile. And besides, I agree with you sometimes.

[Radical Activist]

164. amazing. agreeing is nice

I'll surprise you and say something nice about Dean, which I do on rare occasion. The best way to move beyond the scream is to joke about it. The yahoo commercials and other comments he make about it are smart. It was too big of a deal to use humor right after it happened but in time I think it won't matter.
In the end, his third place finish in Iowa was far more significant than a silly scream in explaining his fortunes. But of course the media focused on the trivial aspect of that loss instead of talking about it in a serious way.

[Mike L]

166. Does anyone watch Comedy Central Chanel?

I saw an ad they have for their 2004 comedy review about 5 times over the weekend. They blurb Dean's scream speech and make a comment about it ending his political career.

Just mentioned this to show the exposure Dean's speech is still receiving.

[madfloridian]

167. Yes, I heard that. You are really determined, aren't you?

Well, let's see. I guess I can find some more articles to add to vary things a little.

[Mike L]

168. Did you blow a fuse when you heard the "Yeeeeeeaah" on the ad?

Will you boycott Comedy Central?

Is Comedy Central the MSM?

[Cheswick2.0]

169. Hey, how's the Mark Warner forum coming along?

Have you pass the 100 posts mark yet?

[madfloridian]

171. I have not seen that yet, Ches.

Tell me more.

[Cheswick2.0]

172. There are about 5 people on this forum who want Mark Warner

to run in 2008. I personally think it is a wast of time to be trying to get anyone to run this early.

MikeL is one of those people, so you can see what his motives are with this kind of continued childish attack posting.

[Mike L]

179. What motive?

Dean has sabotaged his presidential hopes. He's history.

"YeeeeeeeaaaAAAAHHH!!!!"

Dean is no competition to ANYONE for president. I'd like to see him move to some purple Northern state and take some repug's Senate seat.

[Mike L]

174. Thanks for the plug.

Anyone who wants to actually win in 2008 is invited to drop in.

[madfloridian]

176. Mike, I have never attacked Warner.

Is that why you are doing this, just keeping on about this? Letting your daughter think a fine man is crazy and not telling her about the media?

Does this make you feel better?

[Cheswick2.0]

178. they are getting desparate

and the election is still 4 years away. Can you imagine what the Warner supporters might be like starting in late 2007 if they are posting these types of threads already?

[Mike L]

181. Which media? Comedy Central?

Dean is no competition to anyone who may run for president now.

The only thing wrong with Dean is that he can't control his emotions. Again, I like his politics. He would make a fine Senator.

[madfloridian]

182. Why is it so important to you to make fun of him?

I am just very curious. It is sad that it is like this here. I expect it from Republicans.

I wonder why you feel it necessary to do this?

[Mike L]

185. As I said, I'm not making fun of him.

Whether Dean will have credibility with the country is a legitimate issue if he is considering chairing the DNC.

[NYCGirl]

183. You sound like the Republicans who brought down Ed Muskie. NT

[madfloridian]

184. The Democrats are trying to keep Dean down.

With the help of the Republicans. I have noticed that everytime he opens his mouth with criticism of anyone, they come out in force, both parties.

This is interesting to watch this. It is just about 200 now, should go well over 300 if typical.

I doubt he will get DNC, I would love for him to be DFA only and be SAKAL.

[Mike L]

187. "It's a conspiracy. It's a conspiracy."

Even Comedy Central is in on it now!

[madfloridian]

189. Actually, it was a conspiracy called a 527.

I can tell you all about it. This is childish, but two can play.

[Mike L]

186. Get real. Dean did it to himself.

"Ignore that elephant. Ignore that elephant."

[madfloridian]

188. Why are you doing this?

Do you feel better?

[Mike L]

197. So we all know what we're getting in to.

Do we want a DNC chair who is a running joke?

I'd love to see some fiery oratory from Dean on the Senate floor. But I'm not sure he's the right person to chair the DNC.

[NYCGirl]

190. Sorry if you have a problem with emotion.

I like my elected leaders to be humans, not little tin demi-gods or puppets.

Seems to me that the Democrats in office could use a little more honest emotion and less pandering.

[Mike L]

191. Most voters don't think it's "presidential".

Of course, if you don't care about winning.......

[NYCGirl]

192. Have you taken a poll of "most voters"? NT

[Mike L]

194. It's common knowledge.

[NYCGirl]

196. That's a cop-out.

It holds about as much weight as "some people say" or "they think" many of the other phrases that Fox News uses as "common knowledge."

[Mike L]

198. OK, how many screaming US presidents can you name?

[NYCGirl]

201. Since we've had 24 hour news channels, or do you want to go back to the

newsreels? Things got somewhat heated during the Lincoln-Douglas debates, I've read. F.D.R. was a real firebrand, and Truman had a pretty quick trigger, too. Hey, remember when Reagan lost his temper during his debates, and demanded they keep the mic on because he paid for it?

[Mike L]

204. That's a little different. How well did Dean do after his scream?

Oh, I forgot. It's the media's fault.

[NYCGirl]

206. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was the media's fault.

However, they overplayed the directional mic feed. Did you know that CNN played it over 600 times in a week?

Did you know that the reporters in the room during that speech had no idea that anything odd or untoward had happened?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/23/opinion/meyer/main595508.shtml

And here's Diane Sawyer's mea culpa on the matter:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/012904_nw_dean_scream_abcnews.html

[madfloridian]

193. How do you know that? Must we all be presidential?

I'll keep playing the game with you.

[Mike L]

195. No, only presidents must be "presidential".

[madfloridian]

199. Kick for tactics of humiliation...just like the GOP ones.

Actually I think Howard Dean will surprise you on this. I think you are a little worried about something, or you would not feel the need to attack so much.

Most people attack out of insecurity.

[Mike L]

203. This isn't an attack. It's a question. You answered the question, but not

many have. I personally don't think Dean can overcome his image enough to be a credible player on the national stage. However, I certainly may be wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

177. LOl

yeah good luck with that. Mark Warner won't even run in 2008, you can file this post and get back to me then.
The third way is dead as a political philosophy.

[madfloridian]

173. No, I felt sad for what we have become.

I felt sad for the attacks here on Dean and us. I felt sad that a good man had been taken down by his own party. I felt sad because I realized that the Comedy Central channel was declaring him over.

No, Mike, I find it sad that you take such joy in attacks.

It appears to reflect what our country is about now.

[NYCGirl]

175. Wonder what Comedy Central's Year End Review will say about Kerry.

I suspect there'll be lots of teeth-gnashing and growling going on here.

If you take Comedy Central as your expert on political matters, you need to get a sense of humor.

[soleft]

170. I think it will be viewed like Clinton's 1988 Keynot speech

[madfloridian]

180. Kick. My estimate is over 300.

Life would be simple if we just posted bad things about others. Very easy to do.

Let's give it visibility. See if my original estimate was right.

[Cheswick2.0]

200. kick...........becaus it is never too early for Mark Warners biggest fans

to start of primary wars 2008.

[Warren DeMontague]

205. We should be asking ourselves why

it seems that George Bush could be photographed taking a dump on a coffee table in the Oval Office and the media would soft-pedal it... the punditry would give him a pass on it... Here's a guy who can't make it through a bag of snacks without turning it into a life-threatening experience, whose performance in the debates (particularly the first one) was inept bordering on the pathetic.. Yet the press adores him, covers for his ass, bends over backwards to portray him as anything except what he is; i.e. an incompetent, fumbly-mouthed, boob...

Yet-- for some odd reason, HD can't live down "the speech".

Go figure.

[Mike L]

207. "HD can't live down "the speech"."

I agree. Things like that Iowa concession speech seem to stick with people.