Those of you who are saying you won't vote.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

Those of you who claim you won't vote if your candidate isn't nominated... think. Think about what you're doing to our country. Think about what you're doing to my generation, those of us who can't yet vote. You're enabling a vicious Republican tyrant for another four years. You are hurting yourselves. You're not only hurting yourselves, you're hurting the kids, the people who have to remain silent and are controlled by the actions of the adults. You're hurting those who will rely on a Democratic win for their lives to get better. Those without healthcare and those without jobs. Those without adequate schooling and those who can't afford to put food on the table.

I can't sit back and let this happen. I can't watch those adults with a vote go without voting. I don't get a vote in this election and it pisses me off to no end that you all won't use yours. It is childish in itself that you are given the right to vote and even consider not using it. It is childish to bash another's candidate. It is even more disgusting to revel in another's defeat. Stop and think about your actions for once. Just think about giving up your vote- you have it, don't waste it. Please.

[One Taste]

1. Good post

I don't particularly like Dean, but I would still support and vote for him if he got the nomination.

[Democrats unite]

2. Very well put, Thanks.

eom

[leftist_rebel1569]

3. THANK YOU VERY MUCH

Some of you NBD people or whatever should seriously take this to heart. Great post :)

[jonnyblitz]

4. the most intelligent thread I have read tonight.

pretty bad when you have to scold people who are old enough to be your parents isn't it? :hi:

[bluestateguy]

5. Some of the adults here could take a lesson from this young lady

Thank you.

[jonnyblitz]

6. dupe

pretty bad when you have to scold people who are old enough to be your parents isn't it? :hi:

[kanrok]

7. Well said.

It pains me to see such low voter turnout in this country. I have NEVER missed a vote since I was 18. What happened in Iowa today gives me hope, though. As kerry said: If you want to see democracy in action, go to Iowa. Kudos to Iowa Dems. (I got carried away there for a second). Anyone who won't vote because they don't like the choices should do what the French do: submit an empty ballot, but GET OFF YOUR ASS AND VOTE!

[F-5]

8. Great Post!

I will do my part to vote come November, even if my candidate doesn't get the nomination. I will settle for nothing less than a Democrat as President.

I will NOT tolerate another four years of the Bush Regime.

[Fenris]

9. Wise beyond your years, girl

Adults sometimes forget what it looks like to those without a voice when they say they won't vote. It's squandering the essential gift of democracy in favor of petty candidate politics.

You kick ass, LPFF, don't you forget it!

Neil

[elperromagico]

10. The truth is, we're not all going to see our favorite candidate nominated.

It's either our nominee or Bush. Simple as that. We can't let Bush win by default because we quit after one state voted.

Please, don't let's give up.

[neverforget]

11. Great post!

[StClone]

12. Here here!

Cheers for those that pull away from that stance to go full bore for the eventual nominee. We need EACH OTHER TO STOP BUSH!

[NightTrain]

13. Don't worry. This 38-year-old will definitely be voting!

And I'll be voting for the Democratic candidate, regardless of who he is. The important thing in this election is to get that drunken, coke-sniffing, unelected AWOL fratboy out of our White House!!! :kick:

[angee_is_mad]

14. those people aren't real democrats

but independents(like Nader and the green party).

if they were real democrats they would get behind the nominee and remember it isn't just the presidency on the line but the senate, congress and governorship.

If you do not vote we will lose everything and I mean everything. Just get up off the floor, wipe off your breeches and regroup.

Think objectively about the bigger picture.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. "Real Democrats" don't use fear tactics

to try to scare people out of voting for the person they want as president.

That's what others are trying to do to those who like Dean best. That is what Republicans do to scare Independents out of voting for Democrats. As an Independent, I don't like it when the Republicans do it against the Democrats, and it's even more disgusting and sickening when I see Democrats doing it against their own. I'm fast losing all respect for the Democratic Party, and frankly, if they lose in November it will be their own fault for pushing the politics of fear.

[M155Y_A1CH]

120. I agree but.......

I think that everyone should be free to
vote their conscience.

Mine says to vote straight Dem until the Repubs
give up their criminal ways.

The third parties have no real political power
other than to suck votes away from one of the two parties.

Unfortunately, they usually hurt the party they most reflect.\

There is more to consider than Candidates.

[DoNotRefill]

29. If they pretend to give me a real candidate...

I'll pretend to really vote.

I'm sick of having to vote for the lesser of two evils, and I'm not going to do it again.

[...Alltogethernow]

41. You're not alone (n/t)

n/t

[beevul]

90. I hear that

"I'm sick of having to vote for the lesser of two evils, and I'm not going to do it again."-DoNotRefill



Makes the fictionalist party of madeupistan look good in comparison.
Sometimes the lesser of 2 evils can no more be tolerated than the greater. This is unfortunately the case alot of the time where politics is concerned, it seems.


Dean or Bust!

[Snivi Yllom]

152. I like that

I will 'pretend' to vote for a 'pretend Democrat' if that is th option presented.

[blondeatlast]

102. And most importantly to the younger generation: SCOTUS!

This is the most important issue for me because of my son. Remember these appointments last a lifetime in many cases.

If you don't vote Dem, be afraid, be very afraid.

[lastliberalintexas]

108. Why?

We Dems controlled the Seante when George HW Bush appointed Thomas- yet we did nothing to stop it. If Dems had voted against him, we'd possibly still have a working left majority on the Court since we should have been able to stall long enough to get CLinton into office.

So tell me again why I should continue to support a party that doesn't support my beliefs? Would you continue to buy a product that did nothing for you? :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

112. Well, first off, you aren't welcome at DEMOCRATIC Underground if you don't

The object is getting rid of bushit the old fashioned-way; by throwing the bum out.

[lastliberalintexas]

116. As I understand the rules

I am welcome here even after the nomination is decided so long as I don't bash the nominee. If I am wrong, then so be it.

And so you know, posts like this do nothing to keep me in the party. I AM A LIFELONG DEM. I have NEVER voted for a repub, and I never will. I have worked for and contributed to many Dem candidates- some of whom were members of my own family. I am currently the president of my county Dem club and volunteering for local Dem candidates. My first "vote" was in school for Jimmy Carter- I was 8 years old. I've voted Dem since. You wrongly assume that people who are upset with the Dem party are not actually Dems. Many of us are- which is why we're so upset about the direction of our party.

But I don't understand why you think I should continue to support a party that does not represent me? Why should that party keep getting my money, my volunteer time and my vote if they don't actually stand up for me? I'm a busy person, and there are other worthy causes which could use what little time I can give.

Would you keep purchasing a product that promised to cure your headache but really only made your headache worse? If so, then I guess there is a big difference between us.

[blondeatlast]

114. Besides, the prez picks 'em out and who they pick is usually confirmed,

whether we like it or not.

Don't like the Democrats? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[lastliberalintexas]

117. Umm, Borque?

Remember him? Remember back when Dems actually had the cajones to stand up and tell a repub president to f*** off, that we weren't going to confirm RW wack jobs to the court?

And I'm not just talking about the Supreme Court- the appellate and district courts are just as important, since most cases never even reach the high court. The repubs stood up to us when Clinton was in office, but we've just rolled over for them.

Sorry that you apparently feel we should continue to do so.

[lastliberalintexas]

141. Oh dear

Of course I meant Bork, as in Robert. Sorry for any confusion- there was a judicial candidate here in SE Texas named Borque a couple of years ago. :dunce:

[indigo32]

137. And Judicial appointments

I'm sorry but logic dictates voting for the viable opposition to the current criminals in charge.

[hlthe2b]

15. Good post, but let's go lightly with our colleagues right now...

Many who are reeling a bit and just need to vent. By tomorrow, I have no doubt that they will have picked themselves up and dusted off to fight another day. But, tonight, I'm all for giving them some space...

[GiovanniC]

16. Bravo!

I am a Clark supporter. Dean is my second choice. Lieberman is my last choice.

If Clark wins the nomination, I will round up every person I know, make sure they're registered to vote, and I will get them to the polls even if I have to taxi every damned one of them there, and we will elect Clark to be the next President of the United States. Then I will dance a jig.

I will do the same for Dean.

I will do the same for Edwards.

I will do the same for Kerry.

I will do the same for Kucinich.

I will do the same for Sharpton.

I will do the same for Lieberman (except I might not dance a jig for him).

[Lindsey]

20. Right ON!

I AM FOR ANYONE WHO CAN BEAT BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I second the post that started this thread and I second the post just above mine. I won't dance for Lieberman either but I WILL VOTE FOR HIM if I have to. BUSH MUST GO...BUSH MUST GO...BUSH MUST GO...PLEASE, IF THERE'S A GOD IN HEAVEN.....

[aldian159]

99. You don't have to marry the nominee, just

punch in the little chad (been a while since I used that word) by his name.

We're gonna need every vote to beat BushCo again.

[nankerphelge]

17. That's all well and good but...

I'm starting to think that the only way people in this country will wake up to what's going on is for things to get a hell of a lot worse before things can get any better. I'll vote but (1) the pendulum needs to start swinging back to the left and (2) a weak and watery democrat will not start the pendulum swinging the other way and will not defeat W.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

24. Welcome to DU.

I see you are a Dean supporter. That's fine, I do not hold anything against anyone. I feel that some of the other candidates are just as left if not more left than Howard Dean. 2) I think all the candidates up there are strong and have their strong points as well as their weak points, including Howard Dean.

[corporatewhore]

34. Welcome to DU and i agree

:hi: we need an opposition cannidate

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. My vote has to be earned

A candidate doesn't earn it by lying about and attacking my candidate. They also don't earn it by sending scores of rabid attack dogs onto websites that I frequent who attack my candidate AND me.

I'm not a democrat, I'm an Independent. My vote is not something any candidate is entitled to without convincing me they deserve it. Only one candidate is doing that and he is also the one being attacked relentlessly.

[oxymoron]

32. Oh spare me KK!

I am an undecided and have seen YOU regularly attack other candidates. Give me a break with the "put upon" act. You have been participating in the smears along with the rest of them.

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. If that were true I would have had at least one time out by now

and I haven't.

[oxymoron]

48. Yeah...whatever.

I did a search before I posted this. You are as guilty as anyone else.

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. Your investigating wasn't thorough then

Do another search and then read the post I'm responding to and I'm confident it will give a much different picture.

[oxymoron]

63. I was responding to:

"Only one candidate is doing that and he is also the one being attacked relentlessly."

And I invite anyone to do a quick search themselves.

[KaraokeKarlton]

68. Only one candidate is making me interested in voting

and he's the one all the other candidates are pig piling on, and the only one others are trying to organize to "stop". Dean is the only one who makes me WANT to go vote. Many Democrats want to "stop" Dean. Obviously, they don't much care for votes from people like me. If they think they can win with only the votes Gore got, all the more power to them...but I don't think it's gonna cut the mustard. :shrug:

[Tinoire]

76. You just vote your conscience KK

If we citizens don't vote our conscience, we have no right to expect our politicians to! No leg to stand on!

3rd place is a damn good show when you're running against the establishment!

Ignore any circling vultures! They love telling their prey "you're ying, you're dead" so they can swoop down.

3rd place- you should be damn proud. It's only the opening shot KK! Ignore the bookies telling you to throw away your ticket!

[KaraokeKarlton]

82. I always vote my conscience

and sometimes that means I don't vote in some elections at all.

I'm not bummed out about Iowa at all. I'm actually kinda glad, and here's why...

1) Lower expectations for my guy is good for him.

2) Pundits and silly campaign advisors will think this is a death blow and that they have succeeded in "stopping Dean", so they'll dig their claws into each other more.

3) Winning Iowa tends to be bad luck because those who win there usually lose if they are the nominee. Either that or they don't end up winning the nomination at all.

4) NH is NOT Iowa. Iowa is far more liberal a state than Dean is a candidate. Kerry can't win NH because of him running all over the state talking about favoring gun control. NH is HUGE on guns, they love 'em just like Vermonters do. However, by winning Iowa, he will get enough momentum to hopefully neutralize Clark. Edwards will hopefully get enough of a boost to zap Lieberman. Dean's NH support is solid, and it's votes, which can't be coordinated in a way to stop anyone. There is no deal making, corrdinating or alliances.

5) Dean supporters will ALL make sure they vote after Iowa. Our resolve has only gotten stronger. Head Onward...to NH! ;)

[shance]

46. Right on Karaoke*** You hit the nail on the head!!!

Like anything, especially trust and our vote, it HAS TO BE EARNED....

[leftist_rebel1569]

37. HAHAHA

They also don't earn it by sending scores of rabid attack dogs onto websites that I frequent who attack my candidate AND me.

You attack a lot of other candidates, so you really shouldn't be talking.

Only one candidate is doing that and he is also the one being attacked relentlessly.

Again, selective hearing. You quickly turn a blind eye to other candidates that even you have attacked and only recognize that Dean's being attacked. I could probably pull up a bunch of examples

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. Actually, the only time I say anything negative about any candidate

is in response to one of their supporters first attacking Dean. It's usually to point out hypocrisy and what not.

[corporatewhore]

74. right on

"My vote is not something any candidate is entitled to without convincing me they deserve it. "
:yourock:

[oasis]

19. A possible draft will bring them to their senses. And what about SCOTUS?

[imhotep]

21. threats don't work

The vast majority of Americans do not vote and they have heard all of your emotional threats a million times.
If you want to motivate people, there has to be a positive reinforcement, not your method of coercion.

[KaraokeKarlton]

28. Actually, they need to run someone I like and I'll vote

Run someone who sounds like a real person, not some scripted marionette. And for God's Sake, when you finally actually have someone like that running don't try to destroy their candidacy. I've never seen such self-sabotage as I'm seeing in the Democratic party in all my life.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

62. Well I hardly think that was necessary

but whatever...

:eyes:

[Democat]

39. How about just someone you don't hate?

If the candidate had to be loved by everyone, then there would have to be a cadidate for each person in the U.S.

Get real and help get Bush out of office.

[KaraokeKarlton]

67. When did I say "love"? I didn't. I want a candidate I like, that's it.

Dean is the only one I like. Well, I liked Braun and Graham too, but they both dropped out. :shrug:

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

70. Charming...

Seeing as I survived 10 years of severe physical abuse from my ex husband, I know what a fight looks like.

I'm not "looking for someone to walk on water", thank you very much. I want someone to balance the fucking budget so my kids don't have to pay debts that aren't theirs. I want a candidate who I know I can trust to take care of the have nots and hold the "haves" accountable. I also an big on my 2nd Amendment rights. Howard Dean was also my governor for many years. I know his leadership and I know he's the best one for the job. No one else is willing to tell the truth that unless we repeal all those tax cuts, we aren't going to get any kind of universal health care and our deficit will continue to cost my kids more and more money in interest on the debt. You see, Dean has shown me that he can balance the budget, build up a surplus, provide health care to virtually all kids and most adults, provide a REAL drug benefit for a third of all seniors under his leadership, create jobs, raise the minimum wage and he even cut some taxes too. Pardon me if I prefer a nice solid record of achievement over a bunch of votes. :shrug:

[youngred]

30. threat of what?

the evil that we're in opposition too?

this is the heartfelt cry of a person who cant vote and watches others completely waste theirs.

Coercion this is not.

[neverforget]

38. Like being concerned for the future of the country is a "method of

coercion." Give me a break!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

42. Yeah, seriously.

Because apparantly to KK, my original post was just dripping with vindictive coercion. Give me a break! It's just my simple plea to seemingly irrational DUers who won't think about what they're doing, only thinking of themselves.

[KaraokeKarlton]

75. No, that's not what I said

I simply said that I am not going to vote for someone I don't like. No one is entitled to my vote...not a party or any individual candidate. That's something that they have to work to get. I didn't view YOUR post as being coercive. But your post does try to play on guilt to sway people, and no matter how good your intentions may be, it really doesn't help sway people who are fed up with the same old same old losing methods that got us where we are in the first place.

I'm not thinking of myself...I'm thinking of my children. I won't vote for a military man with no political record whatsoever and I won't vote for a Democrat who lacked the judgement and ability to influence others to rally for what's right...like NOT going to Iraq, NOT passing No Child Left Behind, NOT passing The Patriot Act. An ineffective Democrat who doesn't get things done that are good for the little people isn't really much better than Bush in the long run. :shrug:

[imhotep]

53. it is coercion

by definition.

[The Magistrate]

73. Sheer Bilge, Mr. Hotep

Pointing out the certain consequences of one's actions is no coercion.

Pointing out that to sit on your hands in a fit of pique during the up-coming election is to lend practical support to the xriminals of the '00 Coup is no coercion.

If it makes those who declare that intention uncomfortable to have its consequences pointed out plainly and bluntly, perhaps those persons ought to reconsider their intended course. Or else boldly acknowledge that, yes, continuance of rule by the worst reactionary elements of our polity is just fine with them, and that to do what they can to secure it seems to them to be the best way to demonstrate their personal attachment to left and progressive principles.

Paradox is a speciality of mine, but that one, Sir, is quite beyond my poor wits....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[KaraokeKarlton]

77. Actually, it's more of trying to use guilt

to influence people to do something they don't feel okay doing. Her intentions are good, but these kinds of posts only serve to do the opposite of what the poster intended to do. By being honest about how I feel, the responses have just given me even more reason to say the hell with voting if Dean isn't the nominee. :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

84. Well, Sir

If in fact you do do what you suggest you will, you will be striking a blow not for the left, but for the worst elements of the right. How you will square that with claims that you are a better leftist than those who bite the bullet and take the best shot on offer promises some low amusement, or would, if the stakes were not so high just now.

"If a man will continue to insist two and two do not make four, I know of nothing in the power of argument to stop up his mouth."

[corporatewhore]

85. who says dems are always leftist?

just wpmdering?

[The Magistrate]

86. What Are You, Sir?

[KaraokeKarlton]

100. I'm not a leftist. I'm an Independent swing voter

I'm not trying to "strike a blow" to anyone. I just want someone I like on the ballot.

[The Magistrate]

126. That Is Different, Sir

But this is rather a hard-core bar here. If you have no real objection to reactionaries, except perhaps their hair-style, or some other accident of a particular individual's demeanor, there really is not much to say to you, in an argument like this.

But do, at least, attempt to understand the basics: politics is about divy-ing up the swag. The right will invariably pursue, in power, the most inequitable distribution possible, wracking wages down for workers and concentrating cash in the coffers of the boss. The left when in power pursues a more equitable distribution, seeing to it workers get a greater portion of the value their labor creates. It is actually in the personnal interest of very few people to vote for rightist candidates, as their policies bring direct benefit to only a tiny proportion of the populace. The right achieves electoral success by manipulation of traditional totemic symbols, such as the flag and the cross, that move many people to feelings of group loyalty. The left, in many cases, inadvertantly plays into this strategy by spending an inordinate amount of time disparraging such totems, and such feelings of group loyalty, which allows the right to maintain convincingly to a great number of people that leftists are not like them and are, in fact, against them and all they hold dear.

[youngred]

128. Guilt? Coercion?

have you looked up those words in the dictionary? DO you have even the faintest idea what they mean? You have not demonstrated that if you do.

[The Magistrate]

130. Well Said, Sir

One wonders what such people imagine are the tools generally used to move people, in any case. Politics is not a rational, but an emotional and instinctual business. Politics is a matter of cementing group identities; people who place the highest value on "outsider" status are useless in it.

[leftist_rebel1569]

43. Our future is on the line here

I think LPFF brings up a few great points in saying that people who are doing this are really acting childish. Because, some of you are. Why should we have to sit by and enable another 4 years of Bush? Sounds like coercion enough to me

[mitchum]

22. Absolutely ABB

[TLM]

25. I will not vote for any candidate who takes part in the Gore-ing of Dean

If the DLC candidates want to shut out the grassroots... they won't get my vote.

[bhunt70]

51. So Dean is more important than the party and getting bush out?

[LTR]

52. You do not have a monoploy on grassroots support

I would say there's quite a bit of grassroots support in ALL of the campaigns.

This level of arrogance is astonishing.

As for me, I'll vote for the Dem nominee. Regardless of who it may be. A real Democrat would do this.

[Kazak]

26. VOTE!!!

If you don't...SHAME!

[DoNotRefill]

27. A quote from Fletcher in "The Outlaw Josie Wales":

"Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining, Senator..."

that thought sums things up for me nicely.

[PopSixSquish]

31. Well Said

It's young folks such as you which give me hope.

[Zomby Woof]

35. Thanks Maggie

Always a wise and sensitive voice of reason. People need to check their egos at the ballot box, because that is all it is, an ego trip.

[curse10]

36. ABB Maggie! All the way!

:-)

[IndianaGreen]

40. I got news for you, but: Indiana is going for Bush in 2004!

Indiana went for Bush in 2000.
Indiana went for Dole in 1996.
Indiana went for Poppy Bush in 1992.
Indiana went for Poppy Bush in 1988.
Indiana went for Reagan in 1984.
Indiana went for Reagan in 1980.
Indiana went for Ford in 1976.
Indiana went for Nixon in 1972.
Indiana went for Nixon in 1968.
Indiana went for Johnson, a Democrat, in 1964!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Indiana went for Nixon in 1960.
Indiana went for Ike in 1956.
Indiana went for Ike in 1952.
Indiana went for Dewey in 1948.
Indiana went for Wilkie in 1944.

You get the drift? Indiana is a solid Republican state that goes on the GOP column a couple of minutes after the polls close.

I could skip the Presidential election without any feelings of guilt, because the GOP will carry Indiana easily. Why is that? I don't know, but I do know that a lot of voters that cast their votes for a Democratic governor in 2000, then turned around and voted for Bush.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

44. So?

Going out to vote is an American right. You don't vote because someone is going to win, or who you think is going to win. You go out to vote for who you think would do the best job possible for the good of your entire country.

[lastliberalintexas]

111. Exactly

"You don't vote because someone is going to win, or who you think is going to win. You go out to vote for who you think would do the best job possible for the good of your entire country."

But your initial post negates that very well thought out comment. Your initial post implies that I should only vote for the Dem nominee, no matter who it is, or else I am wasting my vote. That's just wrong- my vote is only wasted if I don't vote for someone in whom I believe and think would be the best person for the job.

If that happens to be the Dem, then fine. If not, that's fine too.


And please- no moaning and fussing people. I'm in Texas- my vote doesn't count in Nov anyway. I'll vote for Gumby if I choose. :-)

[sangha]

150. Not "no matter who it is"

There are only eight candidates, and only four or five of them have a reasonable shot at the nomination. Trust me, there's no chance you'll have to vote for Hitler in order to vote Dem in November.

[leftist_rebel1569]

47. And you know why this happens?

People who would normally vote dem (or green, in your case) don't vote! It's possible to win a state like Indiana, if people would go out and vote. Seriously, don't try to deny that

[IndianaGreen]

59. Greens were not on the ballot in Indiana

and there were no Greens back in prior to the early 1990s.

Democrats could not carry Indiana if Jesus was the standard bearer. Ask any Hoosier DU poster and they will tell you the same thing.

We have a Democratic governor, mayor, and congressperson, yet it seems that a good chunk of their votes goes Republican on the Presidential.

How do you explain that the Democratic governor gets half a million more votes than Gore did in 2000?

[GiovanniC]

49. Well...

If every Dem in Indiana says the same thing, then no wonder!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

54. Yep.

Exactly.

[PVnRT]

103. I love it when people who DON'T live in Indiana

try to act like they know how politics works here... :eyes:

Go back to your east coast ivory tower, we'll handle things here.

[library_max]

156. I am from Indiana and now live in that political hell known as Texas.

So maybe you'll allow me to second GiovanniC's point. We can't win by saying that we can't win. We can only win by trying to win. Giving up is self-indulgent, and voting Green is merely a form of giving up.

[demdave]

66. I agree with you on almost nothing, but you must vote.

So I guess my record is still intact. :evilgrin:


All humor aside, you must vote to be heard. Posting on the DU doesn't finish or fulfill you political duty in my mind. A defeatist always loses. VOTE.

[RamboLiberal]

56. Hoorah LeftPeopleFinishFirst - You said it well

And let me get flamed, but any of you people here who won't vote for a candidate cause your candidate got gored by him - well that unfortunately is how politics is played these days. You know Rove and Bush and Cheney will be even worse.

If you don't vote for ABB in the Democratic party this year - then you're childish assholes who don't give a damn for this country, for it's elderly, for its children, for those who lack health care, good wages, jobs, etc.

No candidate will be perfect, but their 100 times better than Bush and the path he's taking us down. I'm 51 and for the first time since Goldwater I'm truly frightened for this country.

[demdave]

58. "My vote is not transferable"

I have been seeing WAY too much of that lately. Voting isn't just a right, it is a privilege. Too not use it is sad indeed.

Very well stated LeftPeopleFinishFirst.

[ldoolin]

72. Mine is transferable

It can easily transfer to the Green Party, Workers World Party, Natural Law Party, or the Socialist Party.

My vote will be particularly likely to transfer in that way if the Democratic nominee is somebody who is tainted by votes in favor of the IWR, Patriot Act, and Homeland Security Act.

Getting rid of *Bush* isn't the point. We need to get rid of every single politician who voted in favor of the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, and IWR - and we can also add No Child Left Behind and several other bills to that list too. Just get rid of them and start over.

[The Magistrate]

78. That Is Incorrect, Mr. Doolin

It is essential to hurl from office the usurper ensconced today in it; no progress on any other matter is possible till this is done. Who does not co-operate in the effort to do so acts in material support of the criminals of the '00 Coup, and thus you would be no different from those you denounce as "enablers" of the tyrant, but merely another coming to his assistance, if that were to be how you acted.

Your final paragraph is a mere fantasy; you are not going to evict from office at a stroke the vast majority of political figures in the country: that, Sir, is a task for revolution, a thing nowhere in the offing in our country. Nor would the course you suggest, of voting for some splinter faction, advance the wholesale house-cleaning you dream of one millimeter. It is, to political strategy and effort, what purchase of a weekly lottery ticket is to financial and retirement planning....

"Politics is not the art of the possible; it consists in choosing between the disasterous and the unpalatable."

[Egnever]

95. Works for me

If its revolution we need in order to change the course then lets hurry up and get there.

By voting for the enablers we only prolong the agony.

[The Magistrate]

127. As Has Been Famously Said, Sir

Revolution is not a tea party. Nor is it a parlor game, or a hit song title, or a posture struck to impress potential sex partners.

It is a damned grim business, invariably more agonizing than even the desperation that provokes it, that neither succeeds nor fails without drowning a people in blood and pain for a generation. It very seldom ends up ijn the hands of those who began it; these are generally, whether in victory or defeat, its first casualties. Those who call for it provide textbook illustrations of the old saw: "Be careful what you wish for --- you might get it."

"The eagerness of green troops for battle is not to be much relied on."

[Egnever]

93. A-friggin -men!

Right there with you!

I refuse to vote for anyone who suported any of that crap. I will not reward them with my vote ever.

[blondeatlast]

104. It was nice to know you. Please read the rules before the nominee

is selected..

[kayob1]

144. I'm with you!

[jus_the_facts]

60. Right ON Maggie!

:thumbsup:

[LatteLib]

61. Well thought out post LPFF

I hope you will be able to influence many of your peers with your wisdom and insight.
I will be voting for the Democratic nominee in the election.
Bottom line for me is ABB.
Thanks for your post and the wake up call to people of voting age because it is the youth of this country that will suffer the consequences of apathy.

[corporatewhore]

64. What i think is more tragic is when

someone who really fights for a cause does alot of activism and organizing and protests and hell even risks bodily harm and arrest because of something like the SOA or FreeTrade and then they vote for a person who is a supporter of that issue and believe me i have gone through quite a transformation in 2000 i was cursing out nader during my highschool history class and my teacher (god bless her) helped to show me all the tragedies and the corporate support that still go on under dems.I live in texas so if dk doesnt get it i can "safely" vote for david cobb there are certain dem cannidates i would not vote for if i lived in a swing state.This is my first time i want to make it special and not just give it up to any cannidate ;)

[SW FL Dem]

65. Best Post of the night

I am a mother and I worry about what the world will be like for my son. I would love to be perfect, but I have learned that idealism is unrealistic. I have to vote to protect my son, and that means ABB.

[dreissig]

69. A Question of Values

Make your argument to people who are planning to vote for war-mongering John Kerry. At the time the invasion of Iraq was contemplated, we badly needed high-ranking Democrats to oppose it. In a display of personal values, John Kerry voted for Bush's war.

There's a case to be made for strategic voting, but there are also times when strategy ought not enter into it at all. Some issues have to be voted on as a matter of conscience. Slavery is one. Child prostitution is another. There's no way a "wrong" vote on issues like these can be overlooked or forgiven.

You do not have to agree with me that starting up a colonial war against a sovereign country is one of these "conscience" issues. I believe that it is, and I will vote accordingly, and there are lots of Democrats who agree with me.

if you're making a strategy point, you should ask whether it makes sense to nominate a candidate with high negatives within his own party. Do not ask me to forget my values so that Candidate A,B or C can be elected.

[blondeatlast]

105. Love your sig line, pal.

The way I heard it is--Fool me twice; shame on ME.

Can't take any responsibility, apparently.

Don't come crying to DU under a different name if Bush wins in 04.

[ldoolin]

71. I've concluded that...

...we need a complete housecleaning of the entire Democratic Party first before we can even think about winning back the White House.

We can start with every single one of the Democrats in the House and Senate who voted in favor of the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, and IWR. Anyone who voted for those three bills does not represent me, they represent Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

81. Amen

And I don't hear many of our candidates call for the repeal of PATRIOT and for the immediate withdrawal from Iraq.

[corporatewhore]

83. Isecond the amen

[Leilani]

89. The problem is you don't have the numbers on your side

Dems voted tonight, & you didn't agree with the outcome.
But the majority rules.
How are you going to clean out the Dem party, if the majority disagee?

[Egnever]

96. By watching them go down in flames to the facists,

Maybe it will wake them up maybe it wont. But it sure as hell wont let em think its ok to continue the course they seem intent on continuing.

[The Magistrate]

129. You Know, Fellow

The fascists count on lads like you; indiscipline and self-indulgence on the left is the secret of reactionary success, and has been for a long time.

All that what you propose amounts to is assisting the fascists to maintain power, and tighten their grip upon it.

If you propose to assist them, are you not a collaborator with them yourself? It is not the centerists, not the moderates, not the pragmatists, who empower the fascists in this struggle, Sir. It is the ultras like yourself who do that, and no one else.

[DemBones DemBones]

79. In Iowa tonight, real Democrats spoke. If they didn't choose

your candidate, they still spoke.

Iowans had an incredible amount of exposure to all the campaigns (except, obviously, those who weren't campaigning in Iowa.) Candidates were on television, they were in the newspaper, they were LIVE all over Iowa. People working for campaigns were phoning Iowans, writing letters and postcards to Iowans, urging them to vote for their guy. Candidates had ads and billboards, too.

Iowans had every opportunity to learn about every candidate. It's disappointing if they didn't give your candidate the support you'd have liked, (We Kucinich supporters would have liked more than 1%!), but I thought we all knew only one person can get the nomination.

Every candidate has positives and negatives. Every candidate has committed supporters. Only one candidate will respresent the party in November. Others can influence the platform and the choice of nominee. That's how our system works.

Remember: The goal is to defeat Bush.

[corporatewhore]

140. The Goal is to defeat what bush stands for

like wars for oil
imperalism
"free" trade
social injustice
Theese happen under dems too

[lazarus]

80. I figured out a long, long time ago

That I'll find a candidate I agree with 100% as soon as I run myself. Until then, I'll just find the candidate who comes closest to achieving the goals I want, and vote for him.

Right now, the goal is unseating Bush.

[candy331]

88. KaraokeKarlton I have to say

I love reading your posts and agree with you. I have never voted(for religious reasons that's now over) so this will be my first time but I have watched from the sidelines and know that a change has to come in this party. Voting for the same old stale candidates who care nothing but for themselves is a no no for me. Dean is the only one presenting a message of change that could bring hope to a shattered party. People I think are so caught up in the movie star arena that they want a candidate to reflect, they don't care about the message. If another candidate had stood up and fought Bush and brought the message of take back your country then I would consider voting for them but none did they quaked in their boots when Bush spoke and joined with him in their votes. So no I want be voting for ABB. You hold out hope to the end but when the patient is beyond help you call time of death. The Dem party may have time of death called soon.
Pessimistic no just realistic.

[foo_bar]

98. the irony is, "nobody but dean" folks are

the most identifiable victims of the media saturation they project onto everyone and everything else. They've become so addicted to their pet avatar, like a Che Guevara T-shirt, that they stage mock couch potato revolutions (in their mind) in defense of brand loyalty.
That's what I'd consider the movie star mentality: the medium trumps the message so thoroughly that only Dean-Pepsi will quench their thirst for something they wouldn't even pick in a blind taste test.

[blondeatlast]

107. "Brand loyalty" is exactly right! I've been wondering what bothered

me about the Dean campaign--that's just it.

[Walt Starr]

119. No, those of us who are NBD want to vote FOR somebody

I'm sick of voting AGAINST Republicans. I've been doing it for two decades and from now on, I'll be either voting for somebody or not voting.

[tinanator]

124. why?

care to share a few solid reasons?

[Walt Starr]

136. After two decades, all that voting AGAINST Republicans has accomplished

is moving this nation further and further to the right.

I no longer fear George Bush. To fear something is to give it power over you.

[Zomby Woof]

131. Most of us here...

No matter who we support, ARE voting FOR somebody. We DK supporters are just as zealous in voting FOR and SUPPORTING DK. He is not merely the anti-Bush, but rather he is someone we can take pride in supporting because he has a REAL Democratic platform, reflecting REAL Democratic values, and posseses all of the integrity we find lacking in Dean, who also lacks a decent Democratic platform too.

That is why I take issue with many Dean supporters on here. They act like he is the ONLY candidate worth supporting. As enthusiastic as I am about DK, I could vote for one of the other Democrats if I must, and not just out of an ABB sentiment.

All of the supporters have valid reasons for supporting their candidate, whether Dean, Clark, Kerry, Edwards, Sharpton, Lieberman, or DK.

[Seldona]

87. Agreed. Great post.

I really think voting should be the law.

It amazes me that anyone would just walk away.

We are at a crossroads today.

The Neocons literaly want to crush the opposition. Eliminate it. If not forever, for a very long time.

If you believe in America, it is your DUTY to ensure the survival of our system.

It sure isn't perfect.

But I can't think of any place else in the world I would rather live.

[Memekiller]

91. Here, here...

I'm a Clark supporter, but what everyone wants (with the exception, it appears, of a few Dean supporters) is to not have another four years of Bush. I think Clark is the best, and I'll work for him with all my heart and soul, but I'll support any of the leading candidates . There's four or five I'd feel totally comfortable with at the top of the ticket. Anyone who remembers all the people who refused to support Gore because he was "the same" as Bush knows there's a HUGE difference between Bush and any one of these candidates.

[incapsulated]

92. Listen to the kid..

She may well be deciding whether to pull the plug on you in coming years! ;)

Great post.

[Selwynn]

94. I will vote for any of the democratic candidates --

I really like Clark so far. But I'm smart enough and not childish enough to compare any candidate against Bush and vote for the better choice. In almost every scenario, probably even lieberman, that choice is a Democratic nominee.

[carpetbagger]

97. Every withheld vote makes us reach to the right for another.

Whoever doesn't like the idea of Republican lite needs to get on board and stay on board.

[blondeatlast]

106. EXACTLY! Change should come from within, not without.

[Walt Starr]

109. I've followed that strategy for 20 years

It hasn't gotten me anywhere except in a nation on the verge of fascism.

Maybe fascism is what we need in order to turn it around. It may have to get incredibly worse in order for it to get any better.

At any rate, I view too many of the tired old hacks of the Democratic PArty to be part of the problem, espcially the one that won last night.

[IndianaGreen]

134. The political "middle" has been moving rightward for years

so much so that being a centrist today is what being a Republican was when Kennedy was President.

I will move rightwards no more!

[Walt Starr]

101. Nope, sorry. 2002 was the last time I vote AGAINST Republicans

In 2004, I either vote FOR somebody I feel good about, or I just stay home.

[Stuckinthebush]

110. Now, come on Walt

I'm a Dean guy myself, but I'm also a realist.

I'll work my ass off to get Dean the nomination, but if he doesn't get it, then the next task is to make sure Bush is out of office.

Like it or not, we have two real choices come November - Bush or Dem. Any vote not for "Dem" is a vote for Bush.

I think Dean will win NH and take that momentum on to Super Tuesday, but if for some reason the majority of people begin to buy into the media and GOP (and establishment Dem) lines about Dean's "anger", then he will lose. As much as it will piss me off, I'll have to keep the bigger prize in sight...Bush back to Crawford.

[Walt Starr]

113. There is only ONE way to vote for Bush

No matter how much you want to say otherwise, voting for anybody other than Bush is NOT voting for Bush.

I'm through voting against people. This year, I etiher vote for somebody or I don't vote. So the Democrats can either give me a candidate I feel good about voting for or they lose my vote.

It's as simple as that.

[tinanator]

125. might want to change that

to Howard Dean Fanatic.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. I will vote for any anti-war candidate. Dem or Green.

I've only not voted in one election and, ironically, it was the one non-vote that probably had the most effect. We had a Dem representative that sold her soul to the NRA so I (and a lot of other lefties) sat it out. She was replaced by an ultra-rightwing religious nutcase. 2 years later she was replaced by an ultra-liberal who is still in office.

Non-voting or voting 3rd party can be effective.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fleetus]

121. I support Dean, but I'll vote Dem regardless.

Obviously we all have our favorite candidate in the primary, but I disagree with the idea that we should not "settle" for for the lesser of two evils.

The strategy that we should concede this election by dividing our vote until a "real" leftist candidate wins a primary is doomed to failure. This administration is so far right, and so organized in their control of the media, that giving them four more years would be utterly disasterous. Look at what has happened to our country in the past 3 years, and imagine what outlets for opposition will exist in 5. By then we'll need a "real" revolution, but unfortunately Bushco will have gotten so strong that said revolution would be squashed.

The time to send the message is NOW. If every American who disagrees with the direction this country is headed votes for the better of the two candidates in November, Bushco will be out of office and we can start rebuilding our nation. We can not concentrate this party farther left while the right gains insurmountable strength. There simply isn't time.

[Northwind]

122. You better support Dean then

And make sure he gets nominated.

That is your only option. Anything else, and you guarantee a Democratic defeat in November.

Hardcore Dean people will note vote for someone else. They will stay home, vote 3rd party, or write in Dean (my own opreferred option, one that is beginning to garner a strong following).

And do not try appealing to my patriotism or sense of civic duty. If the Dems do not nominate Dean, then the party deserves oblivion and the country deserves Bush.

This is a non-negotiable position. Rant and rave all you like.

But in the end,you better nominate Dean.

NBD '04.

[John_H]

133. EVERYONE PLEASE READ THE ABOVE POST

[youngred]

135. Dean is God

our saviour indeed!

[The Magistrate]

138. This Swill

Might as well have been written by Karl Rove: it can only be the product of genuine hatred for the United States and the Democratic Party. There is no excuse for this.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[Blitz]

145. Last night was a worst case scenario for Bush & Rove

But I'm sure that attitudes like yours put smiles on their faces in spite of the emergence of a viable Democratic opponent.

You have the right to your opinion, though and, hey, you can make travel plans for that Tuesday in November when the rest of us will be voting.

[K8-EEE]

149. I Don't Agree At All

Not all Dean supporters are inflexible. I myself have changed my position on him totally, I would only vote for him if I though he could win, I feel he is losing it for himself, by his own behavior. I'm sure I'm not the only owe who feels that way.

[sangha]

151. Dean supporters won't go for another candidate??

Dean had something like 40%, and then it dropped below 20%. It seems like Dean supporters have ALREADY gone for another candidate.

The idea that Dean supporters won't go for another candidate is as false as the idea that Dems wouldn't vote for a candidate that voted for IWR.

[The Magistrate]

153. Indeed, Sir

This nihilist line represents only a tiny proportion of Gov. Dean's supporters. The sheer perversity of the line calls forth an energetic response against it, of course, but the overwhelming majority of those supporting Gov. Dean deire the defeat of the criminals of the '0 Coup, and will work to that come the fall.

[M155Y_A1CH]

123. The problem arises in the liberal mind set

A laissez faire attitude prevails in most fair and open minded people.

When you are willing to let your neighbor do as he will and try not to pass judgements on others in your daily life, you relinquish judgemental control over others.

Voting, by extension becomes just another judgemental control that you can give up for lent. Let others decide so I know I didn't vote for the devil. The exception being when a particular benevolent genius is on the ticket and I really believe in him/her.

Else it is seemingly unimportant to you who occupies
elected offices because they are all just politicians.

When I was a young idealist, I felt that way and
I'll bet it's the true root of low Dem voter turnout.

I found that the errors of that way of thinking were;
all politicians and parties are not the same,
the party least reflective of my ideals
was infested with voting loyalists and
I was giving away my right to vote.

I hope, when you become able to vote you will remember this pitfall. The onset of which occurs in a year when it really doesn't seem to matter much which way you would vote.

Just keep repeating "the lesser of two evils is still less evil". Just get out there and vote for less evil!

[John_H]

132. Just as long as they stay out of the way, I'm fine with them.

For them there will be other bandwagons--superbowl teams, perhaps. Rock bands. Whatever.

The serious people will be working for their country.

[5thGenDemocrat]

139. From, a fellow John H

You're damned right. Let the boo-hooers get out now and stop wasting our bandwidth. I want Bush out and I'll work with ANY Dem, Independant or Republican who wants to help us do that.
John (H)
To hell with the rest of them. Pragma trumps dogma for me.

[oasis]

142. Beat Bush in 2004, is my motto. Whoever can get the job done is my hero.

[mvd]

143. Right on, LPFF!

Even my least favorites, Clark and Lieberman, are a million times better than Bush! Clark comes off as a bit goofy to me and Lieberman just annoys me, but this is too important a time to not get involved for our eventual nominee.

[spindoctor]

146. Like hell I will.

I don't like half-assed solutions. Sometimes a work-around is just not good enough.

I heard a Republican on Hannity defend his decission not to vote defend by saying: "I rather have somebody in the White House who I know is my enemy, than somebody who pretends to be my friend."

It is not often that I agree with hardline RW'ers, but this statement is good enough for a sig line.
There are issues that need to be addressed in this country. If we nominate a candidate that isn't going to address them, then what is the point? If we go to hell, I rather have a Republican to blame for it.

In short, no I will not squander my vote on just any candidate. My main goal is not to defeat Bush, it is to fix this broken country.

[corporatewhore]

148. here here!!!

Our main goal is to not just beat bush but beat what hestands for

[K8-EEE]

147. Right ON!!

Great post, I think this time around there will be a lot less people thinking "oh, there's no difference between the two major parties." I consider that to have been a big lie, frankly, and I have a hard time forgiving Nader for it. Exibit A, Iraq War, Exhibit B, the deficit....we wouldn't be in this sorry shape without GWB.`

[library_max]

154. Question for all the "my candidate or nobody" posters.

Suppose your candidate wins the nomination. What are you going to say to the supporters of all the other candidates? Surely you can't expect to win in the general election without the party united behind your candidate.

Wouldn't you expect people to rise above their anger and disappointment? Wouldn't you expect people to look at the big picture and see the necessity, first and foremost, of getting Bush out of the White House?

Sure, you're angry about smears and cheap shots against your candidate. But every significant candidate has had to endure smears and cheap shots. Just for a quick overview, there's the "angry man" stuff about Dean, the Skull and Bones stuff about Kerry, the DINO stuff about Clark, and the "pretty boy" stuff about Edwards. That's just politics. If you're going to become hateful about it, why shouldn't supporters of other candidates feel the same way? And then where would you be if your guy DID get the nomination?

[Crewleader]

155. I applaud you Maggie....

:yourock:

[library_max]

157. Thread kick.

:kick:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

158. thanks

I appreciate everyone who replied to this post, wasn't expecting such a large turn out!

[library_max]

159. Kick again.