zogby: 43 percent of democrats think abortion is manslaughter

[Clarkie1]

Do you?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1219-03.htm

Discuss...

[leftyandproud]

1. that means 43% of democrats are idiots

hate to say it, but if the poll is accurate, then so is the above statement.

[WindRavenX]

2. ditto

Sigh.
Why do I have a sinking feeling that abortion really IS going to be made illegal real soon?

[efhmc]

7. That would be because people without uteruses, empathy or with any

thoughts concerning women except those of power and control are at the head of our wonderful government.

[aquart]

17. De facto white slavery.

Anti-abortion laws ensure a constant stream of new young prostitutes as desperate girls are forced to leave home, family, friends, and school to go places where they are prey.

Anti-abortion is pro-prostitution.

And the only ones in favor of that are middle-aged men who HAVE to pay for young flesh.

[tx_dem41]

89. I am confused on why you used the term "white" slavery.

Please help me out.

[aquart]

109. Did you check your dictionary?

white slavery. imposed prostitution. (American Heritage Dictionary)

[tx_dem41]

116. Well..

I just thought the racial connotation was odd. I wonder what the origins of the phrase are?

[MrUnderhill]

33. You don't think there's ANY chance...

that some of them merely think it's a person?

[Cheswick2.0]

36. Have I seen one post by you about the personhood of the woman

involved? Why is that the element always missing from anti-choice arguments. The fetus is a person but the woman is an incubator not even worth talking about. That is what I see here on DU when this topic comes up.

[MrUnderhill]

40. ?? Excuse me?

I'm not exactly sure what "personhood" is supposed to mean. OF COURSE the woman is a person!

I'm not making the pro-life argument here. I'm simply explaining how so many Democrats can be personally against abortion, yet be pro choice. It's because we can't KNOW for certain that this is a human being. And, not KNOWING, how can we encumber millions of our citizens?

What I'm saying is that if we DID know that it was a human/person/baby, then of course the government would be correct to limit abortions. If I hold a gun to your head because you annoy me, I can't rail against the patriarchal system that keeps me from shooting you.

This is the point. Not that the fetus being a "person" makes the woman LESS of a person (I like the "incubator" line)... it merely would mean that they would BOTH be persons. And the law has a place intervening where the life of one person may be ended.

I think the part that twist me up inside is how it impacts me. I've got four kids, and thought of them as "people" long before they ever came out (of the incubator?). I wonder how we don't go crazy thinking of them as people (or not) based entirely on whether we WANT them?

[Cheswick2.0]

45. And my point still stands

and is not directed to you necessarily. "Of course the woman is a person" is not good enough. When this board gets into a discussion of choice I never see one argument made by the anti-choice crowd that considers the life of the woman and what it might mean to woman to be forced into carrying a pregnancy she doesn't want. You say of course a woman is a person... but no matter what you say, women are not equal to the contents of their uterus to the anti-choice crowd.
Their lives, needs, financial difficulties, futures, health or plans are never talked about. All that pales in comparison to the fantasy of babies in fluffy blankets.

[okieinpain]

112. so then a fetus doesn't mean shit to you. if that's true then dems

deserve to lose to repugs.

[lojasmo]

38. The mother, a person? Not a chance. N/T

[MrUnderhill]

41. Of COURSE!

But if they were BOTH "persons", what would that mean?

[Cheswick2.0]

46. great now please consider the life the woman who actually is a person

can you discuss that person? Let's hear about her.

[MrUnderhill]

51. Sure! I married her.

And my views on this issue have been molded and shaped by hers.

She's simply the most incedibly amazing person I've ever met.

[Cheswick2.0]

61. and she had an abortion?

[MrUnderhill]

72. No.

I'm sorry.... is she LESS of a woman because she had all four kids?

Or maybe her opinion isn't valid either?

[Cheswick2.0]

75. clearly I was talking about women making the decission to have an abortion

clearly you avoided my request.

[aquart]

110. So you admire her for.........

Doing exactly what YOU wanted her to do?

Doing what she wanted to do?

What? Was there some dreadful obstacle that made her having children heroic?

[lojasmo]

47. That the person's grasp on medical science is poor. N/T

[MrUnderhill]

52. I'm sure insult wins arguments somewhere...

...but not often in politics.

A baby doesn't magically become a "person" the second it's born. The difference between a medical procedure and infanticide is not when it looks at you. At some point it ISN'T a person and then at some unknowable point it IS. Magic, miracle, whatever.

I'm saying that since we don't KNOW when that point comes, we can't possibly legislate a woman's life away protecting what may not even exist. But legislation and emotion are different things. We're talking about this supposed poll saying many Democrats have a personal problem with the procedure. I'm simply saying that it isn't accurate to refer to them as a bunch of idiots who care not a whit about women.

[lojasmo]

56. ROE V. WADE and MEDICAL science.

There is a point of medical viability. It is somewhere around 23 weeks. Anybody yammering about "manslaughter" regarding an abortion prior to that gestational milestone is spouting ignorant claptrap.

<snip: "Methods We studied retrospectively all 142 infants born at 22 to 25 weeks' gestation (as judged by best obstetrical estimate) from May 1988 through September 1991 in a single hospital. Mortality in the first six months, including stillbirths, and neonatal morbidity (i.e., the presence of intracranial pathologic conditions, chronic lung disease, and retinopathy of prematurity) were analyzed.

Results Fifty-six infants (39 percent) survived for six months. Survival improved with increasing gestational age; none of 29 infants born at 22 weeks' gestation survived, as compared with 6 of 40 (15 percent) born at 23 weeks, 19 of 34 (56 percent) born at 24 weeks, and 31 of 39 (79 percent) born at 25 weeks"

[MrUnderhill]

58. Sounds about right...

But the line has been pushed back closer to 21 weeks.

But nobody has been arguing one side of that line or another. It was just "abortion" in general (YOU certaily didn't set the limit for your previous comment).

So are you now advocating outlawing all abortions (minus life of the mother issues) past the point of viability?

[lojasmo]

59. It was pushed back by religious zealots and capitulating dems

Not by scientific discovery. And no. I am not advocating the outlawing on ANY abortions. I am opposed to legislating women's health care choices.

[MrUnderhill]

66. It was "pushed back" by infants being born and surviving.

I thought this was a medical discussion?

As for your second point... you seem to be arguing both sides of the issue? You talked about a viability age and using "manslaughter" before that point is claptrap. Does it not logically follow that you were saying manslaughter AFTER that point might fit?

[lojasmo]

73. It may logically follow, for some....

but I don't agree. I just think it's especailly stupid to call early abortions manslaughter.

[lojasmo]

85. You're wrong. 23 weeks is the earliest case I can find

If you've got some evidence to back your assertion, please do so. We know that the republicans have fought to push against Roe v. Wade, and we know democrats have capitulated.

From the NIH:

<snipOBJECTIVE: To describe the outcome of labour, signs of life at birth, and duration of survival after delivery at 20-23 weeks gestation. DESIGN: An observational study using data from the Confidential Enquiry into Stillbirths and Deaths in Infancy 1995-2000. SETTING: All deliveries to mothers resident in Trent Health Region. PATIENTS: 1306 babies delivered at 20-23 weeks gestation. RESULTS: Termination of pregnancy accounted for 33% of deliveries at 20-23 weeks; these were excluded from further analysis. Spontaneous delivery occurred at a frequency of 2.5/1000 deliveries; 30% died before the onset of labour, 27% died during labour, and 35% showed signs of life at birth. Of the latter, 8% were not registered as statutory live births. Of the live born infants, the largest group (39%) had a heart beat but no other signs of life. There was no trend for infants of lower gestation to show fewer signs of life. Duration of survival varied widely (median 60 minutes at 20-22 weeks), and this did not increase with gestation until 23 weeks (median six hours), probably because of selective treatment. Survival curves are presented for each gestation group. At 23 weeks, 4.5% survived to 1 year of age; all were > 500 g birth weight. Below 23 weeks gestation, none survived, and 94% had died within 4 hours of age. CONCLUSIONS: This information on surviving labour, signs of life at birth, duration of survival, and birth weight at 20-23 weeks gestation should help decision making in the management of pre-viable delivery."

[MrUnderhill]

90. Nope. That was one survey.

And it certainly demonstrates that even if it's possible, early delivery is far less likely to produce a living baby. But it isn't the totality of the situation. Survival before 23 weeks is certainly rare, but not at all unheard of. Viability that pre-term varies SUBSTANTIALLY from one facility to another - depending on what equipment and/or doctors are available.

Japan has done national studies, and has a 4% survival rate at 21 weeks and to the upper double-digits for 22 weeks.

The right wing anti-abortion groups claim figures as low as 19-20 weeks, but the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) (according to their "Perinatal care at the threshold of viability") says 21 weeks. The British Association of Perinatal Medicine’s rule seems to be 21 weeks and a couple days.

But I have a cousin who was born at 22 weeks, and all signs seem to show he was "viable" (since he's still with us).

I found a dozen sites on google with lists of babies born at 20-22 weeks, but all appeared to be RW sites.

[lojasmo]

91. That was a NIH study of 1080 premature births.

Not a survey. If you'd care to give some hard data, I'd welcome it...or even a link or something, you know?

[Warren DeMontague]

97. I think sperm are little people, and I think you should go to jail for

killing millions of them every time you hide in the bathroom with that copy of YANK.

Discuss.

[TyeDye75]

29. agreed /nt

[dolstein]

69. Do you feel the same about Democrats who believe in God?

NT

[leftyandproud]

95. pretty much

to a lesser extent of course

[Warren DeMontague]

99. You can believe in Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy & The Wizard of Oz,

for all I care...

It's when your belief in them causes you to start passing laws pertaining to MY Body that we have a problem.

[w4rma]

94. I don't think so. But it does mean that you need to make sure that you are

supporting the freedom to choose and not trying to get folks to believe that abortion is ethical.

[okieinpain]

111. I don't believe that it's manslaughter, but I can see where others

would. and if your mind is so narrow that they seem like idiots, then you need to look in the mirror.

[InvisibleBallots]

118. what if they think it's justifiable manslaughter?

Are they still idiots?

[NVMojo]

3. I really don't think it is my business to judge someone on this level

[efhmc]

8. Please explain. I really do not understand whom you are talking about.

[efhmc]

4. That is not even close to being a true statement. I am wondering where

these Democrats were found, in Zell's bedroom?

[unblock]

5. PUSH poll PUSH poll PUSH poll

"manslaughter" is a LEGAL term.

so, when asked, "do you think abortion is manslaughter", are they asking "do you think it ought to be a crime?" or "do you think it happens to be classified as a crime at the moment?"

i'll be a LOT of people answered "yes" thinking that they were saying that the thought it happened to be a crime at the moment (what with the banana republicans being in charge and all) and now it's being used to claim that 43% think is OUGHT to be a crime.

very, very slimy!

[MrUnderhill]

34. Oh ... I think it's MUCH simpler than that.

The word avoided here is "murder". I think (as you said) that many/most people don't understand what manslaughter IS...

I think this is just their way of saying "bad... but not as bad as murder" and "manslaughter" is not as "bad" as murder.

Overly simplistic.


Had they simply asked "should it be a crime", I doubt the percentages would be the same.

[THUNDER HANDS]

6. okay, how does the Canadian national anthem go again?

this country is sick in the head, like it got dropped down a well head-first.

[Geek_Girl]

125. I agree Canada is looking real good

These days. I wonder how welcoming they'd be to an influx of Americans though?

[efhmc]

9. Does anyone besides me see the irony in the term MANslaughter?

[Clarkie1]

10. Yes

[Withywindle]

11. Nope, I see it too

...After all, a woman's just a woman...


But that fetus MIGHT be a MALE!!! Gotta save it just in case!

[cavanaghjam]

12. I guess that means

male masturbation is genocide. After all, think of those potential children. What logic.

People got to understand, the womb should be in no way property of the state.

[aquart]

19. It was property of the state in Germany, Rumania...

Dictatorships.

[TyeDye75]

30. The handmaids tale.... wombs were state property

two years ago i thought that book was scary now its freaking terrifying.

[SheilaT]

13. I did a piece on abortion

many years ago (some 25 years ago, to be precise) for a philosophy class at a university. And in the course of my research, I learned that abortions were extremely dangerous to the mother up until quite recent times. She was as likely to be killed or maimed by an abortion as to survive but without the pregnancy. And for thousands and thousands of years we humans lived in small groups in which every single person was needed for the survival of the group. Women in particular were needed to bear children and keep the group going. Infant mortality was high. And many who survived infancy would still not live long enough to reproduce.

And so, it was important that women be discouraged as strongly as possible from terminating a pregnancy.

We've inherited that psychological history, even though we don't fully know it or understand it. Now, ending a pregnancy without harming the mother is (physically) easy, but we haven't collectively gotten over the legacy of our past.

The problem is, merely understanding this doesn't always alter our visceral reaction to abortion, or to the control of women and their bodies that forbidding abortion entails.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm fully supportive of a woman's right to chose. But when I learned this stuff, it helped me understand the anti-choice people a little better, although I still think they're wrong.

[KittyWampus]

15. That Psychic Baggage Is Largely Detrius From Male Domination Of

women and society as a whole. Especially in societies that have things like property rights.

The conditions of which you speak (regarding abortion being dangerous) are somewhat cliche and not entirely true.

There are natural abortificants that are relatively safe and effective. And in times of stress, it's better for women to abort.

And in some societies it was considered proper to abort or dispense with a female newborn if a woman already has a young male child... so she can give more to her son.

[serryjw]

14. Why would anyome belive anything Zogby says.....

Didn't we all go thru this for 2 years during the election. You can ask any question any way you want to get the response you are seeking.75% of Americans think that abortion s/b legal than about 20% think it should be legal and manslaughter???????

[DesEtoiles]

16. And 100% of them think it's not the government's business

[genius]

22. That's probably right.

[AuntiBush]

18. Talk about Flip-Flopping

"Anti-Abortion to Taking Food/Housing/SSI/Education YOU NAME IT!"

Anyone else going thru this weird stage of seeing Cap Hill Dem's as a-holes lickers? It's more than disturbing - putrid actually.

I'm female and love children. But no one, and I mean no one should ever have the power to tell a woman, any woman for that matter what to do with her body. Walk a mile in her shoes first and cast the first stone... please, cast it and I hope I'm there when they do!

Of course if they place abortion on the illegal agenda, who's going to help them with housing, food, etc. etc. etc... oh, that's right. That's where LIBERALS step-in. Da*&*$m BAAST*$%A*(DS! GRRR!

[robcon]

20. I think abortion is murder

I guess I agree with 43% of my fellow democrats.

[MrUnderhill]

55. Interesting... but do you think...

that the government should be legislating based on that belief?

[genius]

21. Manslaughter is a crime. I think that many Dems are morally opposed

but think abortion should be legal.

[Blue Wally]

23. It should be possible to obtain a legal abortion

Abortion is an evil thing. It is a killing. It should only be done as a last resort, BUT, back alley abortions are the most evil thing of all.


We as Democrats should disapprove of abortion, but should never back down on keeping abortions legal. We should allow anti-abortion, pro-adoption counselling and parental notification prior to permitting a legal abortion, but the final choice as to getting an abortion should be with the woman.

[Cheswick2.0]

42. You are obviously more moral than all those evil women who

for selfish reasons and lack of a good anti-abortion lecture have killed a potential person.

Bad bad, stupid evil women.

[Pathwalker]

70. I don't think abortion is evil - I've had thirty seven of them!

Or is it forty? Of course it is the only "birth control" I use, living in a trailer and being a Welfare Queen, after all. Just using the right-wing talking points that have yet to be used in this thread.
:eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

77. abortion is just so much easier than making my man wear a condom

just takes a few minutes and is cheaper than the pill since you have to keep buying them. I figured that if I waited until the 7th month to get that abortion then it would usually be a year before I had to get another one. At 200 bucks a shot, that sure is cheaper than the pills I was paying for. Since my medical insurance will pay for my hubby's erection protection and not my birth control pills, abortion really is the easiest way to keep from having a bunch of rug rats.

Next year I am considering having a baby and selling it on Ebay.

[Pathwalker]

87. A very good idea! Wait until it's born, though.

As you know, they're only sacred until they're born, afterwards they're nothing more than fair game. If you decide otherwise, see if you can talk your Doctor into giving you a repeat customer discount, like with frequent flyer miles. Besides, everyone knows a single abortion is just SOOO much easier than remembering to take all those pills - who has the time to remember something like that? No, an abortion is so much easier. Besides,it really is unfair to ask the man to stop and do something sensible in the heat of passion - it's not like it's their responsibility too... :evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

102. Right, and then you laugh as you eat bon bons and drink expensive vodka

paid for with the sweat and hard work and paychecks of hard-working, white male cubicle drones..

Except, really, you're not in a trailer park.. that doesn't carry the proper, erm, demographic connotations. You're in a public housing project, you know, one of those luxurious fancy expensive buildings in the inner city.

[Demi_Babe]

24. I think abortion is killing

but that is my own personal belief. I am 100% pro choice and always will be.

[Zynx]

26. I am of the same line of thinking on that.

I believe abortion is wrong, but outlawing abortion will not help this situation. We should do everything we can to reduce the number of abortions in this country by giving incentives for adoption and reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. well swatting a fly is killing

so is picking a flower.

[renegade000]

108. heck

washing your hands is genocide :P

[Nederland]

86. I don't understand that argument

If you think abortion is "killing", why shouldn't it be illegal? Personally, I'm pro-choice because I don't believe the fetus has rights. To say that abortion is wrong but should be a personal decision is a bit like saying you are "personally" opposed to slavery but believe that the decision to own slaves is a personal one and laws outlawing slavery are a violation of privacy rights.

I just don't get it, if something is "killing", it should be illegal.

[tjdee]

101. War is not illegal.

Killing in self defense isn't illegal either.

[Nederland]

104. Response

99% of abortions are not self defense either. And if you believe that having an abortion is somehow equivalent to waging war, I guess we just disagree...

[cally]

105. Explain your statistics

I think you are citing a belief but not a fact. Look up why women get abortions. You will be surprised.

First, have you ever been pregnant? Do you have any idea how hard it is for many women to work at the same level when pregnant? Do you have any idea of the risks to a women's health and life carrying a child to term is? Pregnancy and bearing children threaten a woman's life and changes her entire life.

[Nederland]

117. Gladly

I have looked up why women get abortions and I think you are the one who is citing belief not fact. Please keep in mind that I am pro-choice and I believe that the choice is a woman's regardless of her reasons. I simply take issue with your assertion.


In a study by Torres and Forrest (1998) -- based on 1987 data -- women gave an average of 3.7 reasons for wanting an abortion:

The vast majority (in excess of 90%) of abortions are sought for personal reasons:
21% feel that they do not have the financial resources to bring up a child.
21% feel that they are not ready for the responsibility of bringing up a child.
16% feel that their life would be changed too much. She might have a plan for her future (education, developing a career, etc.) that does not allow for having a child at the present time. She might be looking after an elderly parent and does not have sufficient time or energy to commit to a baby.
12% feel that her relationship with her partner is in difficulty.
11% feel that they are too young, and not sufficiently mature to become a mother.
In 8% of the cases, her children are grown and she does not want to start another family, or that she has all the children that she wants.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_why.htm

Not that "threat to health" doesn't even make the list it's so rare.

[tjdee]

106. I don't think it's equivalent to either.

I was just responding to the implication in that post that all killing is illegal.

[AgadorSparticus]

25. i think people who voted for bush are accomplices in manslaughter.

[Zynx]

28. Indeed they are.

Anyone who votes for a leader who is prosecuting a war is indirectly responsible for the outcome.

[intheflow]

124. Absolutely! n/t

[Q]

27. I simply don't believe polls...

...when they're used for political purposes...or even when they favor my point of view. It's dangerous to change the course of a party based on the opinion of a few hundred or thousand people.

I realize that many people think it's 'scientific' to conduct polls....but polling a thousand people can never reflect the views of the total...especially if they don't take into account cultural differences. Many polls are used to push people to a certain conclusion so that their opinion can be used to make decisions for everyone.

And didn't Zogby predict Kerry would win based on his polls?

[MrUnderhill]

35. Neither do 68% of respondents.

Slightly higher among "likely voters".

[Guaranteed]

31. God dammit. When are we going to start making an argument?

Our leadership SUCKS DONKEY BALLS.

[0007]

32. Bull fucking shit!

[lojasmo]

37. 57% believe that statement is utter crap.

I am one of those.

[noonwitch]

39. Zogby doesn't have the greatest track record, recently

So I'm not putting a lot of stock in his numbers on anything these days.

Abortion is not supposed to be an easy issue. I think it should be legal, but I don't know if I would have one under circumstances other than rape or finding out the fetus had some kind of birth defect beyond what I could handle, or if I developed some type of life threatening condition and knew about it early in the pregnancy.

Legally, it's an all or nothing thing. You can't legislate exceptions for rape and incest-this needs to be made clear to the mushy middle. If there is a ban on abortion except for rape and incest, who has to prove rape? A criminal conviction? We know how that goes, and it can't be done in an appropriate time frame for the woman to get a safe abortion. That is, if the rapist is convicted to begin with, and doesn't sue the woman to keep her from aborting the fetus he fathered.

[aWaKeNoW]

43. So is war

if people are going to think of the word "manslaughter" to describe abortion. I guess our current government wants us to have plenty of kids so they can grow up and be sent over to another country to be "slaughtered" in a war that doesn't make any sense to a lot of people in this country.

I am very pro-choice and think it should always remain a woman's right to do what she feels is best for her. I do not agree, however, for using it as a form of 'birth control' and think that they should have more stiff regulations on abortion so that women aren't able to just use it for that purpose.

[MrUnderhill]

44. Amen. n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

49. What?

Please explain what using abortion as birth control means.

PS ... you are not very pro-choice if you think there should be more regulations than there already are.

[aWaKeNoW]

53. I used ('birth control') with quotes because

Instead of actually getting a monthly shot or taking the pill or even having their partner use a condom, some women are just sexually active without trying to prevent pregnancy and abuse their abortion right when..OOPS..they get pregnant and are in no way shape or form ready to raise a child. This is what I personally do not agree with and don't think that women should just keep using it for that purpose.
I can be very pro-choice and at the same time wish that women wouldn't abuse their right to have an abortion..over, and over and over again.

[Cheswick2.0]

62. this is of course all in your imaginagtion

What proof do you have that women are simply not using birth control and then getting abortions? That's just nonsense.
Where is your proof that women get abortions over and over and over? How does someone abuse their rights? That's like saying it is an abuse if you vote over and over and over year after year.

[aWaKeNoW]

64. I personally know

someone who has had 2 abortions and she does not use any protection of any kind (nor does she want to), and I do not agree with this. I respect your views/opinions and wish you would respect mine.

[Cheswick2.0]

65. Yes I bet you know someone like that

:eyes:

Because abortion is so much cheaper and easier than using a condom.

[MrUnderhill]

67. I believe that was MY point?

And you slammed me on your following post?

[Cheswick2.0]

78. I believe sarcastic and you

missed my point.
If I objected to something in your post it was not the idea that women are not using abortion as birth control.

[MrUnderhill]

83. Nope. I was also being sarcastic.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. So how, exactly, do you propose to monitor who is doing what

..and for what "reasons"?

Also, FYI, most "pro-life" organizations are also across-the-board opposed to all birth control, period.

Maybe the thing to do, if you're really interested in preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place (a noble way to approach the problem, for those who are philosophically opposed to surgical abortion, in my opinion) is to support research into better, safer and more effective forms of birth control- as I'm sure you're aware, there have been no major advancements in this science in some 40 years or so... Also, working to make sure that health plans cover birth control so it is available to all.. lastly, many people (myself included) think that not only morning after contraception, but ALL oral contraceptives should be available OTC.

Unfortunately, right now we have a bizarro situation where instead of birth control being made more available, it is becoming less available- particularly in areas where pharmacists decide they have a "moral objection" and refuse to fill prescriptions.

Maybe before you start trying to figure out how to weed out the irresponsible women from the responsible ones trying to get abortions, you can save some of your rage for the self-righteous assholes who won't fill pill prescriptions.

[Ripley]

98. Hot Damn!

Thanks for bringing up the current Talibornagains infiltrating the pharmacies (as they have the school boards) so they can extend their concept of acceptable sexual relations.

Ack. I just made a post about Peace in GD and now I'm in a big flame thread. Oh well, what can we do?

Peace.

[Warren DeMontague]

100. Well, there's a difference between being angry

and standing up forcefully and articulating what you believe in.

Beyond that, I think we're currently being overrun with how shall I say it, erm, "outside influences"--- probably folks worked into a froth by this "Liberals hate Christmas" bullshit. This too shall pass.

Peace.

[MrUnderhill]

54. ?

And you wouldn't be very up an the abortion debate if you haven't heard the "abortion as birth control" canard.

The idea is that there are millions of women out there who intentionally don't use birth control because "If I get pregnant, I can always have an abortion".

Like a few hundred dollars (or whatever they cost) and an uncomfortable medical procedure are a fair trade off for getting some guy to wear a condom? Or taking a pill?

I'm sure there are some women who feel this way, but it's just as ridiculous to claim that it is the norm as it is to pretend that virtually ALL abortions are due to medical necessity.

In his/her defense... every poll shows incredible margins against "abortion as birth control" (80% plus). But no poll saying how may abortions people think fit that category.

The other big one is "abortion for gender selection", which I also can't imagine is incredibly common, but is often brought up.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. I am not up on the abortion debate

I am up on the abortion reality. Abortion as birth control is a bullshit right wing argument.
And no one is saying all abortions are for medical necessity.
Where did you get that idea? No one says that and there is no reason for women to have to justify themselves that way.

[Ripley]

79. Where the hell are the mods?

There are at least 5 foul-breathed trolls on the board today.

"Millions of women use abortion as birth control." That is the stupidest bullshit I have ever heard in my entire life. No wait, that would be second to the guy at my gym. When we were discussing the sorry state of public education in this state, he got all hot and bothered and raised his voice to say "If they didn't spend so much time teaching sex education maybe the stupid kids would learn reading and writing."

Yep, that's the answer. Drop sex education altogether (like they really spend that much time on it here in the deep south) and then magically all the kids will have grades as high as the rest of the Western world. Oh, and the teenage pregnancy rate and abortion rate and unplanned pregnancies will magically decrease too.

Why do so many "pro-life" people have to resort to lies? This debate always, ALWAYS comes down to this:

They believe a fetus has more rights and deserves more compassion than a woman. They have no interest in hearing the circumstances of the pregnant woman. They believe we should live in a Taliban-type Totalitarian country where the government will force women to carry all pregnancies to term. ALWAYS. No matter her age, health, competency, financial situation or personal desire. To them it is PUNISHMENT for women having sex outside the function of procreating.

And don't give me this shit about how women only get pregnant if they refuse to use birth control. ALL BIRTH CONTROL HAS FAILURE RATES. And it's pretty freaking extreme to punish a woman who does not want a child to FORCE HER to carry it for nine months because she forgot to take her pill one or two nights in a month. Shit happens, women are not perfect. I'd like to see men account for their "mistakes" ... say starting illegal wars where thousands of real live breathing human beings are slaughtered.

On edit: Didn't mean to direct this at you Cheswick...you know who I mean! :hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

84. you are right as usual

and as fabulous as ever Ripley!

[robbedvoter]

50. And I say Viagra encourages terrorism. Discuss.

Why is Zogby even polling for this BS?

[MrUnderhill]

68. Maybe he's tring to keep his callers employed?

Or maybe he's just "down" about gettnig so little press coverage since the elections?

[Nederland]

57. I hate these types of polls

I would have thought that Zogby would understand that how people feel about abortion depends entirely on WHEN that abortion takes place. A significant majority of people want to see early term abortion remain safe and legal. Likewise, a significant majority of people believe that late term abortions are wrong. Simplistic polls like this one that fail to ask questions that take this difference into account are therefore fundamentally flawed.

[greenohio]

60. We need to embrace pro-life Dems....

haven't you heard that?

[robbedvoter]

71. Only if we confiscate their Viagra. When was this new vedgie even

became a talking point? It sure wasn't during the election, but now everyone is peddling it on our boards. (maybe in the media too? - I wouldn't know)
Why do you think that is?

[Radical Activist]

74. What other issue is an entrance requirement for the party?

I can look at any Democrat in Congress and find at least one issue where we disagree. I can't think of any issue where the Party says, if you don't agree with us on this, then you can't be a Democrat.

There are anti-union Democrats, there are Democrats weak on civil rights, there are Dems weak on the environment, Dems who don't support gay rights, and Dems that are war hawks. I'm pro-choice but I don't understand the logic that says this is the one and only issue where you aren't allowed to disagree with the official party stance if you want to be a Democrat.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. you can be anti-choice and be a democrat

there are just a lot of us who will make sure you don't get elected to any office where you get to vote on matters of choice.
I'd do the same if someone were for reinstituting slavery.

The beauty of it all is that there are always pro-choice candidates who are just as good on all the other issues and I have never been forced to vote for an anti-choice candidate or the republican. So why should I voluntarily give up my rights when I have other options?

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

80. O Fer Chrissakes

How many more astroturf mowers can we fit under this tent?

Your agenda is showing

[Cheswick2.0]

82. Violets are Blue and Roses are Red

you're talking to a poster who is already dead.

[Cocoa]

88. so how do you like the discussion you got?

was it productive for you, for us, for anyone? Or did it just get people upset.

[The Gigmeister]

92. Yes, but...

...I live with the guilt of wanting to keep it legal because I'm Pro-Choice and will remain so.

Personally, I just wish everything would stay exactly as it is now and the issue would GO AWAY!!!

[w4rma]

93. I don't know. But I do know that pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.

I'm not going to debate whether abortion is ethical or moral and the circumstances that it is or isn't ethical or moral. I'll debate why freedom to choose IS ethical and moral, however.

[tjdee]

103. Once the human heart is beating, it's a person IMO.

I am pro-choice completely and I would never judge anyone who has to make that decision. I can't bring myself to call an abortion manslaughter or murder. No one has an abortion for fun.

When people have miscarriages, people don't ridicule the parents for naming their child and grieving even though it didn't go to term.

When people announce they're pregnant (and keeping it), people don't go so what, get back to me when it starts breathing because it's not a person now.

:shrug: I think fetuses are babies, they have human hearts... sorry if that makes me an improper liberal, or whatever.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

114. You are your brain. The heart is just a hydraulic pump. (nt)

[zulchzulu]

107. This is absolutely ridiculous

Like it or not, abortion HAS to be legal. Like Clinton had noted, it should be rare..but it should be safe, legal and not negotiable.

Having the government intervene on a medical procedure that is now safe is for those that want the government to control a woman's choice and thus intend the government to adhere to other forms of control detrimental to freedom.

There is nothing to bargain for. There is nothing to be persuaded any other way.

Having Pelosi (who just voted for Patriot Act II) think that the Democratic Party should give that freedom up to get some Religious Reichists to kick the Democratic Party's tires is pure foolishness. Along with their "moral" judgements on the evils of abortion they will also want to work on the "morals" of gay rights, the "morals" of allowing businesses to pollute and send jobs overseas in the name of what is good for capitalism...it's a slippery slope.

Let the Religious Reichists who are against abortion stay right where they are...in the arms of the corrupt GOP.

Negotiating abortion rights to somehow be seen as a strategy to let more people in the Democratic Party is like a union allowing scab workers to take over the union workers' jobs...and thinking that it's bringing more people into unions.

[Geek_Girl]

126. What are the Pro-Choice Republicans saying about all this?

There are a few I'm just wondering are they speaking up? Because the pro-choice dems have lost their fucking minds.

[shockra]

113. If evolution were really true...

Then women would never abort. They'd only be interested in spreading their genes, and having as many babies as possible.

Like conservative women, who believe in creationism.:crazy:

Unless evolution only really refers to males! Nah. Men never construct theories around themselves.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

115. Uh huh...

[shockra]

120. Well, really. I was starting to lose my mind, but...

There is something wrong with the neo-Darwinist theory of evolution. Undoubtedly we evolve, but it can't work the way they say it does. If you believe the strict reductionists like Richard Dawkins, genes are in control and bodies are just nature's way of making more genes. All life is supposed to be primarily concerned with its genetic legacy.

Clearly, this theory doesn't apply very well to humans. Some people want to make as many others similar to themselves as possible, but most people do not. Some people don't care to ever have children at all. That kind of puts a crimp in the masterful gene theory.

It's also funny that the ones who seem to abide most closely to the evolution rule are the conservatives, who have lots of children. And think birth control is a sin. It must be interfering with our genetic imperative/nature!

P.S. Hey! I love the bunny. I'm feeding 3 stray bunnies in my backyard this winter. Not pancakes, though. Ha.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. Have you READ Dawkins?

Go get "The Blind Watchmaker". And read it cover to cover. If you don't want to give money to the Darwinian Branch of the Satanic Army, pick it at a public library.

[w4rma]

123. I don't think conservatism or liberalism are passed by genes. (nt)

[SemperEadem]

119. yeah, unless they caused one or their daughter needs one

to keep the family name out of shame... then it's ok with them.

funny how that works.

[BrklynLiberal]

121. Doesn't one of the commandments say something about adultery???????

How many people have violated that one? HYPOCRITES!!!!!!
If YOU think it is wrong DON'T DO IT!! Don't tell ME what too!!!!