Would Dean forming another party hurt the Democrats?

[Guaranteed]

Just wondering what you guys think would happen.

[colonel odis]

i hope it would hurt them

[xultar]

5. That's what the Rethugs want, that is what they would say too.

No biggie what will happen will happen.

[Guaranteed]

6. What do WE want, though? nt

[xultar]

7. Great Question. IS this what we want a new party? Contact Dean

and tell him it's time to do it. I think if he gets enough supporters he'll go for it.

[Guaranteed]

10. Well, nobody's saying this, quite yet. nt

[still_one]

14. I'll vote for him

most of the current democrats in congress are not democrats anyway

watch how they will buckle under social security when it comes up

[mzmolly]

1. After I laughed .... I voted yep.

;)

[Eloriel]

44. You laughed, I winced: What Democrats?

They're all dead or comitose.

man, I am SO ready to follow Dean to electoral victory in another party uniting a GOB of disaffected people from all over the country and all across the political spectrum.

[mzmolly]

46. Well, you'll be waiting quite sometime because as Dean says

"it's not about me, it's about America."

Edited to add :hi:

[billie_]

71. i almost forgot what a democrat was until Dr.Dean ....

hurt the democratic party?
we have no party anymore....

i agree with your post as usual Eloriel, you are right on!
DFA

obviously there are REAL democrats left, some who come to mind...

Kucinich
Byrd
Waters
Ryan
Hastings
Obama
Jackson-Lee
Wellstone (may he RIP)...etc, etc...

[loudsue]

76. I'd be right behind you, Eloriel!

:bounce: I wish Dean WOULD start a new party....the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party!!!

I'd go door to door for that idea, and promote the candidates in every NEW PARTY race....

Of course, we need to get our election process straightened out first, or all bets are off!

:kick::kick::kick:

[DemDogs]

86. Short memories here

A couple of things:
We won presidential elections in the past with combinations of all kinds of Democrats -- ones you would like and ones you wouldn't, but the policies of the candidates they elected put in place and the judges they appointed stood for what most of us stood for. Don't keep dumping on these Democrats who got us the White House.

And I like Dean fine, but it is a pipe dream to think that he would have won in November. Before the scream, BEFORE the scream, with all the momentum and all the money, he fell apart the kind of pressure that is child's play to Rove and company. And that was just with Democrats. It is fine to recount the good things he did, but it is nonsense to suggest that it would have been anything other than more lopsided if he had been the nominee.

[DrGonzoLives]

2. Democrats are fractious enough

So yes, it will hurt, although it would be doubtful that Dean would carry even a state.

[Florida_Geek]

3. But it would be a Good thing IMHO --- IF

the Dems keep turning more and more into Repugs.

[The Gigmeister]

4. Yes. And he's never win...And it would ensure pukes win forever...

...

[Guaranteed]

9. He'd probably win a few states, in my opinion.

But the Democrats wouldn't be SHIT anymore.

[still_one]

12. no it wouldn't

here is what kerry and the dems stood for:

1. giving * the right to delcare war on Iraq, when it should have been a congressional vote

2. voting for the medicare prescription drug plan

3. voting for the 385 billion dollar budget which diminishes rov v wade, reduces pell grants, and has enough pork to give you a cholesterol problem

no, we need people who distinguish themselves from republicans, not who just sit on the fence, and watch the way the wind blows

As far as your saying it would insure continued democratic loses, that is what the DNC and DLC, and the democratic congress have already been doing

[The Gigmeister]

24. WE BARELY LOST!!!

Jesus MAN!!!

Another 120,000 Democrat votes in Ohio and we're running around here planning President Kerry parties!!

Now we've got people talking about taking down the Democratic Party???

WHAT FUCKING PLANET AM I ON????

[KissMeKate]

56. "Barely" is still a loss.

a loss is a loss.

electability lost.

second place in a winner take all system is an unequivacal loss.

[Q]

64. Perhaps you're on the planet Denial?

This isn't just about the White House. Democrats have NEVER been in this sad of shape. Never.

Starting in the 90s...Democrats have lost more seats than any time in history.

And you better start thinking about WHY Kerry lost instead of how many votes he lost by.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. The party is going right and the rank and file want to stay in the middle or go left.

[The Gigmeister]

80. Yeah that's the ticket...We've lost all those Senate seats in the south...

...by not moving further left.

I'm in Indiana where good, solid Democrats (Whom many despise), like Byah and Roemer and Lee Hamilton WIN!! Even though it's about as red as red can get!!

I'm not the one in denial here.

[Q]

81. To many...moving 'further left' means nothing more than moving BACK...

...to the middle. It's the centrists who are arguing extreme postions...like supporting an illegal, aggressive war in Iraq, privatizing SS and giving tax cuts to the rich while everyone else is left with crumbs.

Byah is an example of a corporate DINO...not a 'solid' Democrat. His association with the DLCers pits him against the working class and the poor. Since when does this describe a good or solid Democrat?

[lojasmo]

84. Bayh, Roemer, and Hamilton win red because they're DINOs N/T

[w4rma]

88. PATRIOT ACT, Iraq War, Bankrupcy "reform", PATRIOT ACT II,

Corporate Welfare.

When they say "move left" these are the issues they are talking about. It annoys me that they vaguely say "move left" instead of talking about specific issues.

[lojasmo]

82. I was wondering what fucking planet you're on too. N/T

[0007]

98. Johnny come late sez; WHAT FUCKING PLANET AM I ON????

[madfloridian]

19. Well, think about this...if we become more like them on issues....

there will only be one party anyway. Then he can start a 2nd party. :silly:

[still_one]

8. I hope so

it wasn't until he critisized * that the other sheep democrats followed

[okieinpain]

11. and if they keep putting these old fu**s on tv, calling mike moore

names, I'm going to be all for it.

[NightTrain]

13. The Democratic Party is already dying of self-inflicted wounds.

I say form a viable third party and put the Democrats out of their misery!

[still_one]

15. i second that, but no way do I want nader

[NightTrain]

18. You're right. Not only is Nader too divisive a figure...

...let's be honest about this, he's getting old. A viable third party to fight the G.O.P. needs a healthy infusion of young(ish) blood!

[KissMeKate]

58. The Green party dumped nader for good.

you dont have to worry about Nader coming back- hes gone for good, after his embarassing showing this election.

[Guaranteed]

16. That's what I'M saying.

It's decaying...time for rebirth.

[madfloridian]

17. He says he won't. But....

He said many times now is not the time, but I think there are enough people angered now that it might come to that someday....

There are many like us who now donate only to DFA and the candidates it supports.

I don't know if it is a good idea, or a bad one, but I do know that the way things are heading it is a possibility in the future.

[OKNancy]

20. Howard Dean is a Democrat

He would never do such a thing. From everything I've ever read about him and heard him say...he's a loyal Democrat. He would even like to be head of the party. I hope he gets it.

[Lexingtonian]

21. But will he get Ross Perot to run?

Yes, I voted "No".

[janx]

22. I don't think he'd do it.

He has been a Dem and worked for Dems for so long. But I'd support such an effort if he tried, and I know one heck of a lot of people who would do the same. Half of the people active in DFA right now aren't even Dems--they're moderate Repubs, libertarians, green types, and independents.

My brother is convinced that he should do so; he thinks it's the only way anything is going to change.

But again, I don't know that Dean would do that.

[Guaranteed]

25. I agree with your brother.

I call it "tough love" for the Democrats.

My thinking IS that it probably would be a short-lived party. But it would force the Dems to finally protect their left flank, and more importantly, just start acting like they actually respect themselves. And then they'd start winning again.

[janx]

31. I don't think it would be a short-lived party, necessarily.

There are a lot of people who are disgusted with the corruption in our government these days--Dem and Repub and others.

[Eloriel]

40. Yes, and those very people come from all across the political

spectrum (with the possible exception of fundie far right). AND, like many of us, they're dying for a big dose of truth, honesty and integrity in both politics and government. On that score, Dean's the man.

[Guaranteed]

47. Right, but what I'm saying is that such a party

would force the Democrats back in line. They would be affected, and they would move. They'd have to. Just like when Dean implanted that spine in the primaries. They have to protect their left flank- it's their Achilles Heel.

You get a charismatic character with a strong following on your left flank, as a DLC Democrat, and you're finished.

[bluedonkey]

23. It should hurt them

They have been so eager to please this administration it makes me sick!
I would follow Dean and I'd like to hear his 'battle cry' again.I love a man with passion! Kerry used to have passion,now he calculates his risk.Don't get me wrong,if Kerry is sworn in as President,I'd be very happy,but in the future,I will put my suport elsewhere.
We have to stop supporting a weak party;that's how we lose!
The party has no identifyable platform,that's how we lose!

[American Tragedy]

26. Dean has already said over and over that he's not going to do that

So it's a totally pointless question.

[Guaranteed]

27. He said he wouldn't run as a third party candidate in the 2004 election.

I don't know of him ever saying that he would NEVER form a third party.

Madfloridian, the Dean expert around here, seems to think it's a possibility, at least.

[madfloridian]

28. I am looking now, but my recollection is.....

that now was not the time for a 3rd party. I don't ever recall his saying never. But it is hard to find a negative when researching.

My best recall is that he said not now.

[American Tragedy]

33. He won't do it. He is too pragmatic.

I've heard him speak often enough to know that he does recognize the limitations of the political system in America. He's not quite as blindly idealistic as people reckon him to be.

[Guaranteed]

34. Oh, no, I don't see him as blindly idealistic at all.

I do see him as very dedicated to his supporters, though, and he knows that the party is weak.

[Eloriel]

48. You never know -- things change, people smarten up and see the

handwriting on the wall.

Dean is easily one of THE most loyal people I've ever seen, but even for loyalists there may be a breaking point. He's also smart, and he's ultra-pragmatic. Comes a point when loyalty to a dying party isn't the PRACTICAL thing to do when you've got a country to save.

I feel fairly certain he's not entertained serious thoughts about it up til now, but you just never know what the future holds.

[madfloridian]

49. Yep, even for loyalists.

:hi:

[lojasmo]

83. This is the site of pointless questions i.e. Dean left of clark? N/T

[tjwmason]

29. Be very careful here.

In the early 1980s it was generally perceived that the Labour Party was moving to the left, as a response four senior members left to form the Social Democratic Party. This helped to cripple the British left electorally and give the Tories 18 years straight in power (and being in power in Britain gives more than it does in the U.S.).

I realise that the whole left-right things are different, but a new party which is perceived (perception is all that really matters) to be on the same ground as the Dems would draw support, and would not necessarily benefit progressive politics generally.

That said, there always has to be a point at which you stand up and refuse to remain in a party which has left you behind. It's not for me to tell you that part.

[WithStamina]

30. Of course it would hurt the Dems

The question is this: would it help the liberal cause?

[janx]

32. I think it would help the American cause,

to be honest.

We're in a hell of a way. Some of our Dems are trying to figure out ways to capitulate to the religious right wingers to gain more votes.

That is not what our country was based on. We need to reclaim our country and our democracy.

[Guaranteed]

36. Which they would never get, anyway. nt

[janx]

41. Exactly!

What kind of ridiculous idea is that, anyway? The Republican party has grown so extreme that one octogenarian Michigander I know, who used to be buddies with Lynn Cheney, has pronounced herself a (small-L) libertarian!

My own mother, who is no longer with us in body, was an old moderate Repub type with very strong interests in conservation/environment, women's rights (especially reproductive rights), and the separation of church and state.

The Republican party today is the opposite of these great women. It got hijacked by religious extremists.

[Cuban_Liberal]

35. He'd never do such a thing.

Dr. Dean is a loyal Democrat, and I hope he becomes our party's chair.

:)

[janx]

37. I must add that it would detract from the Repub numbers too.

The independent/libertarian types *like* Dean, as do a lot of independents who have voted Repub in the past--even if that was twenty years ago.

[Guaranteed]

39. YES. nt

[Obviousman]

38. yes!

end of discussion!
William Donohue

[Disturbed]

42. Dean/Kucinich

The Green Pary ticket for 2008. ;0)

[Orangepeel]

43. would martians landing in New York hurt the Democratic party?

just about as likely

;-)

Dean won't form a third party

[Guaranteed]

45. I wouldn't count out aliens landing in New York, either.

;)

[janx]

50. TRUE!

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas, etc., BGL.

:toast:

[Eloriel]

51. ROTFL

GREAT response. Really cute.

[Gyre]

52. DNC's worst nightmare

The fire in the party completely leaving the "establishment" to itself. That would be so cool!

Gyre

[Walt Starr]

53. I HOPE he does start a third party

It would complete the Whigging of Demco!

[madfloridian]

73. He already has the basic foundation, with over 700,000.

They play the numbers close to the vest now. The basics are already there.

[zonmoy]

54. he will but

the democrats are hurting themselves far more by trying to be republican lite.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. I would rather see him join the Greens.

It would certainly help build the party and give a strong alternative the two(?) corporate parties.

[Walt Starr]

57. I don't think Dean would ever join the Greens

He;d start a completely new party before doing that, IMO.

[Disturbed]

60. Why not the Green Party?

Seems to me instead of starting another party it would make more sense to join a party that already is set up that stands for the principles that most progressive Dems hold.

[Walt Starr]

61. Because the Greens are already marginalized

IMO, what's needed is an entirely new beginning.

[Radical Activist]

68. Not in a million years

Dean would never abandon electability. He's much too practical to join the Greens. Also the Greens would never accept Dean. They are very far apart on the issues. Dean isn't nearly progressive enough for them.

[greenohio]

79. We don't want him.

[IndianaGreen]

59. A better question is who left whom?

Who turned its back on the party's base? Who ignored the pleas for peace? Who ignored the criticism of PATRIOT, NAFTA, etc?

Progressives didn't leave the Democratic Party, it was Terry McCaulife's party that left progressives!

[imenja]

62. It's not going to happen

at least not anytime soon. Dean is committed to reforming the party, not destroying it.

[imenja]

63. delete

delete

[satori]

65. Yes

I voted Yes. Dean needs to stay with the Dems it does not look like he will become DNC head as I would of liked but perhaps we can create a liberalism group in the Dem Party and make him head of that.

[madfloridian]

66. Actually, I think it is time for all the "people" to get together and act.

We use DFA as our vehicle for change. I speak of myself, my husband, and two of our daughters in other states. I also refer to our group here locally, our DFA group.

That is what we intend to do. I have noticed that Kevin Spidel of PDA has posted here tonight about their very active group. Many of the DFA state groups, and other DFA connected groups such as Grassroots for America have joined with them.

Since DFA works from the bottom up, the local groups mostly make the decisions. I think right now DFA is sort of on hold, waiting to see how the chair deal goes. But more elections in a few months, so we are still there.

I think that if more state DFA groups will combine with other progressive groups at local levels, like was done at the last meet-up.....it would grow the groups.

I think that forums like this could be very influential in building the grassroots, but that won't happen easily here. The bitterness is too great, and I had hoped that would be overcome.

We intend to make DFA our main group to support, but I signed up at PDA for the mailings. I also sign up for other groups like that that interest me.

This is all new, never been tried that I remember. It is figuring out each step as we go. The Democratic party per se is not open to change right now. Not real change. They have become to beholden to the money of big business, and it is not to their benefit to change.

So we will have to do it ourselves. Find Kevin's post here tonight about PDA and join up for the mailings.

[Radical Activist]

67. We already have a center-left Party

Why would Dean leave the Dems to start another one?

[madfloridian]

69. What would that be?

?

[Radical Activist]

70. uummm....You know....the Democrats

the big tent party with liberals, moderates and conservatives. Center-left describes most of the leadership. Moderate but not too progressive, like Dean.

[madfloridian]

72. LOL

Sorry, but that struck me funny. I am a moderate, and I don't belong. Wonder how the liberals feel? They voted to destroy the school system, they voted for the huge tax cuts, for the war, and they are going to privatize social security. Hubby has drug coverage from the employer he retired from...he will be losing that next year.

Tell me again about the big tent?

[Radical Activist]

74. Yes "they" did all those things

I was expecting a response like that. I guess ALL Democrats supported those things? In reality a majority of Democrats in the House voted against the war in Iraq, many voted against the Bush tax cuts and most are opposed to privatizing social security. I don't believe your describing a majority of the Democratic Party. It only takes a few Democrats crossing over to give Bush a victory in Congress.

If Dean were in Congress I'm sure he would fit right in with some Democrats to the left and some to the right.

[greenohio]

78. Then why are you here? Really?

[Guaranteed]

85. You're Green...apparently.

Why are YOU here? Especially defending the DLC whores constantly?

[greenohio]

87. Cause its fun BullGooseLoony

So get back to your Dem bashing.

[Clarkie1]

75. Sooner or later there had to be a thread about Karl Rove's wildest dream

[janx]

89. It would be a very bad dream. n/t

[Pepper32]

77. Yes, without a doubt it will. I don't see Dean ever doing that though.

[Oreegone]

90. Dean is not going to leave the Democratic Party

One of the goals of Democracy for America is to reinvigorate the Democratic Party. He wants people to get involved, become precinct committee persons.

Dean wants people to get involved in politics even if its the local School Board or the Water Commission. Because that is where it starts folks, if we want good people in office then we need to be those people.

Change starts from the bottom up. Whether you like it or not, this is a two party system. If you don't like the Democratic Party get involved and change it. Believe me it's not as difficult as it seems. I guarantee you that in almost any county in the US there are vacant precinct seats for you to take. There are vacant delegate positions and district positions. I say if you really think Howard Dean has good solid ideas, then GET INVOLVED. If we all use the anger, the disappointment, the shock to channel into something positive we can turn things around in no time. So get involved in the DEMOCRATIC Party and make it what you want it to be.

This has been an unsolicited advertisement for Democracy for America. Go to Meetup and find a meeting near you. WE ROCK and so can you.


"The state of the union may look rosy from the White House balcony or the suites of George Bush's wealthiest donors. But hard-working Americans will see through this President's effort to wrap his radical agenda with a compassionate ribbon."
--Howard Dean


:kick: :yourock:

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karenca]

92. We didn't lose. ............ nt

[BrklynLiberal]

93. How much more out of power could the Democratic party be????

DUH!!! Another party for the TRUE liberal/progressive thinking voters might be just the thing to energize the people to get out there and start working!!!! If the Dems move any further to the right, they might as well just join the Republican party. They will have abandoned every single basic principle that defined the Democratic party from its inception. Why should anyone who believes in those principles stay in the party?
We need to dig in and start demanding that our leadership get some cujones and stand up and spit back at these Repugnants!!! Move further LEFT, not to the right!!!!!! Get more stubborn about the principles we stand for, not waver over them. How can we expect people to follow us if we are not sure where we are going???

It was Arianna Huffington who quoted George Lakoff:

"As cognitive psychologist George Lakoff told me: "Democrats moving to the middle is a double disaster that alienates the party's progressive base while simultaneously sending a message to swing voters that the other side is where the good ideas are." It unconsciously locks in the notion that the other side's positions are worth moving toward, while your side's positions are the ones to move away from. Plus every time you move to the center, the right just moves further to the right."

From this article:

THE NEXT DNC CHAIR: WHY YOU SHOULD CARE

Arianna Huffington, AlterNet

[Threedifferentones]

94. Yes, it would hurt the Democratic party.

I also think that the Democratic party may need the pain, because they don't seem to be the party I am looking for.

[youngred]

95. of course

any center-left third party would.

What those on the left (myself included) need to do is stop bitching and threatening to leave like toddlers, roll up their sleeves, and take back their party and their nation.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

96. i picked other...i think it would destroy the democratic party

but then we could rebuild it right. the democratic party is pretty much useless now, as it is, it is far to right, far too ineffective, and they don't defend our issues, our civil liberties, our votes, they do nothing for us, they are a useless dead gangrenous limb, we might as well chop them off and grow another. I have been a democrat for 49 years but, libertarians are looking good these days.

[0007]

97. Hell no! How can 'ya get hurt if ya haven't anything to win?