Would you PLEASE stop calling the anti-abortion right 'pro-life'?

[Q]

I've seen this term used repeatedly on nearly every thread concerning abortion and leadership. It's once again allowing the right to frame the debate. This is what they want pro-life to mean:

If they're pro-life then their opponents must be pro-death.

Isn't it time that Democrats stop debating issues using words defined by the opposition? Reality shows that the right is no more 'pro-life' than the left. It's just that they're savvy enough to define the terms of debate in an attempt to capture the high ground.

So please, just stop it. Those who want to turn back the clock, make women property and put them back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant are anti-choice, not pro-life.

[Florida_Geek]

1. A true "Pro-Lifer" would be against the Death Penalty

IMHO only then can they call themselves "Pro-Life".

[forgethell]

38. If they decided to be

aagainst the death penalty, would you join them against abortion? to do otherwise, after having set the condition, would seem to be hypocrisy.

What the hell? shouldn't we call them what they want to be called? We like pro-choice rather than pro-abortion. Yet choice can extend to various other things we are against.

[blackangrydem]

57. Most Pro-Lifers claim to be against the murder of innocents (infants)

They claim the death penalty is the justified killing of non-innocents for society's sake.

Sounds convoluted to me.

[laruemtt]

2. if anyone tells me they're "pro life,"

i just look relieved and say something like, "phew, good, you're against the war too. now we can talk. thanks."

[blackangrydem]

58. No good.

Similar to the death penalty, the killing of combatants in a justified war is not seen as the murder of innocents.

In their eyes, abortion is the murder of innocents.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. dupe

[Cheswick2.0]

4. you are right

And I hate it when people refuse to use the word choice and say they are pro-life because they are against the death penalty etc... people don't get it. It's just a way to weasel out of saying you are pro-choice.

Either you are prochoice or you are not. You are not pro-choice if you are in favor of "more regulations". It is not pro-choice to be for parental notification or for making (what you believe are uneducated women)watch films about the developement of the fetus, or subject her to lectures about adoption and how wonderful it is.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. Sorry, but I call you pro-choice since you prefer that term to define you,

so why should you get to define me?

In fact, people who are not pro-life ARE pro-death in that they (you) support the deliberately caused death of unborn human beings. But I realize they (you) don't necessarily support human death in other situations. Many of them (you) are against capital punishment and all the deaths caused by war. The question is why you don't care about the deaths of unborn human beings.

[Q]

8. "The death of unborn human beings"

Why are YOU trying to frame the debate by saying that pro-choice means 'not caring' about 'unborn human beings'? And I didn't realize until now that you were on the 'anti-abortion right'.

It's amazing how the anti-abortion left has adopted the exact same language as the anti-choice right. Is this a coincidence? Or do you read the same talking points manual? Why are you helping the right end a woman's choice to make her own reproductive decisions and determine her own future?

And the anti-choicers always seem to leave out the fact that 'choice' includes the options to use birth control, receive family planning and choose adoption.

[RC]

12. Do I hear anything about the mother?

Her circumstances? Why she might want to or even NEED to abort?
No. All we hear from from the anti-choice crowd is about this perfect well formed White Baby of a few weeks to a few mouths after conception and how it is killing or murdering a defenseless human baby.

Lets worry about the people that are already here for a change. Feed & clothe them. Make sure everyone is adequately housed, educated, have a productive job. You know, dignity and a purpose in life.

Then worry about a symptom, which abortion is, of a increasingly non-caring society.

[0007]

47. I'm with you RC. Man's freedom ends where the pregnant

women's nose begins.

[hinachan]

69. They're not pro-life, just anti-abortion

<<Lets worry about the people that are already here for a change. Feed & clothe them. Make sure everyone is adequately housed, educated, have a productive job. You know, dignity and a purpose in life.>>

They don't care about anyone who already is alive, so to hell with the "pro-life" crapola. They're anti-abortion and anti-woman, period.

[sportndandy]

13. "pro-choice" and "pro-life"

Originally pro lifers were called anti-abortionists. Instead of calling themselves pro-abortionists (which would not be accurate) someone coined the term Pro Choice. In order to sound positive, the anti abortion group starting calling itself Pro Life, with the insinuation that choice people are uniform anti-life. Most Pro-choice people ARE Pro-life. They just argue that it is not the governments goddam business to dictate, that pro choice is essential, and abortion should be unnecessary.

[goddess40]

63. You can't be Pro-Life if you're Pro-War

This is what one of my newest protest signs says. Surprisingly I've only gotten looks but no one has said anything.

Bush is Pro-death and I tell anyone that says otherwise the truth.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. Why don't you care about the lives of women?

Why is the life of the fetus more important than the life of the pregnant woman?

You are either for women's civil rights or you are not. Stop romanticizing pregnancy and think about those already living for a change.

You are either pro-choice or you are anti-choice. You may or may not be against the death penalty etc etc... but that has nothing to do with the issue of woman's reproductive rights.

God apparently is also pro-death since he lets so many precious babies die in the womb and so many fertilized eggs get flushed down the toilet on a monthly basis.

[hinachan]

70. Finally, this is what I've been saying for years!

<<God apparently is also pro-death since he lets so many precious babies die in the womb and so many fertilized eggs get flushed down the toilet on a monthly basis.>>

Given the number of natural miscarriages, God is the most pro-abortion force on earth. When I see someone with a bumper sticker that says "God is pro-life", I say to them, "If God's so pro-life, where was He when my friend's twin babies were miscarried, and she nearly died, as well?" If they say some crap about it being God's will, I say, "That proves my point then...his will is to kill fetuses in millions of women's wombs."

F*cks their minds every time! :evilgrin:

[JerseygirlCT]

23. We do care

but that must be weighed against the care for the already living woman. There's no way to ignore that actual life, either, in favor of a potential life.

I'm willing to call those against abortion anti-abortion (rather than my preferred anti-choice), but pro-life doesn't fit for those whose only issue is denying women the right to make private, personal medical decisions.

[sandnsea]

49. Because tissue isn't a human being

Because people have the right to come to their own conclusion about life and health and reproductive responsibility. Because it wasn't until Jesus was actually born that he was considered, to the world, as the savior.

[Cheswick2.0]

66. Why don't you care about the lives of women?

Why is a fetus more important than a living breathing woman who has a life of her own she is trying to protect?

[Paradise]

6. Simple: Pro-Choice - Anti-Choice! n/t

[rurallib]

33. I frame it "pro-choice, no-choice"

has a nice ring.

[Paradise]

59. yes, it does. n/t

[hyphenate]

7. Amen

I've said it over and over as well. The meme is that we're "babykillers." They take that stance if their title is "pro-life." As you said, that means we're "pro-death" and we're not. The meme we should be using is "pro-choice" vs "anti-choice." If we could get the connotations cemented into the minds of people across the country, the "anti" tag might prevail and show those hypocritical bastards for what they are.

[Crowdance]

9. Anti-choice = pro-death

for women. Denying women the choice to save their lives or health should be an outrage. That should be our talking point.

[tsuki]

10. They are not pro-life, that is a commitment, a long term

commitment. They are pro-birth.

Question I ask all the time: Are you pro-life, or just pro-birth?

If you are pro-life, then you won't mind the extra taxes to provide health care, dental care, day care, food, & housing for every child.

Haven't met a pro-lifer yet.

[Sporadicus]

11. By the Same Token, We Can't Allow the Term 'Pro-Abortion'

to define our positions. I don't like abortion, but it's ultimately the woman's right to choose whether or not to carry a fetus to full-term.

[Q]

15. No one likes abortion!

Like war...it should always be used as a last resort. But those who want to end choice are ignoring history and reality. It was just a few decades ago that women were given the 'right' to vote and be considered 'separate but equal' with men. It wasn't long ago that men had the legal 'right' in some parts of the country to beat their unruly wives. They were considered as less than men and couldn't own their own property, open bank accounts or establish credit in their names.

It has to be the choice of women or it becomes the choice of the state and the men who run it.

[robbedvoter]

14. Anti-Choice; Bush's war; Inheritance tax; late term abortion

Borrow and spend GOP-ers; Religion as weapon; Government for oppression, not help

[Walt Starr]

17. They are Anti-Choice

There's not anything about the fucks that is "pro-life".

[illflem]

20. I feel calling them anti-free choice

makes it sound like it really is

[Mend]

18. Pro-life is pro-death

I am sorry that some of you are too young to remember the fight to get abortion legalized or the good old days when women used coat hangers, poison, knitting needles, guns, knives and anything else they could find to end unwanted pregnancies. ABORTION WILL NEVER END....that was the point in legalizing it. It will either be safe or unsafe. The only way to stop abortion is to have excellent birth control available starting at puberty, excellent medical care for all people, excellent schools, good incomes for all, a redistribution of wealth so that all beings are welcomed to the planet and can lead decent lives. Let me know when that happens and I will rethink my position re legalized termination of pregnancy.

[luaneryder]

19. Pro life=pro birth/pro fetus

Pro life stance would take the mother into consideration and I don't hear that from the vocal anti choice crowd. A true "pro lifer" would be against the DP, against war, against hunger, yet the term is used exclusively for those who want to prevent a woman to have control over her body and force their morality on the masses.

[MercutioATC]

28. That's what I call 'em..."Pro-fetus".

They're really concerned about fetuses being killed but have no problem killing people once they're born. "Pro-life" would cover all life, I'd think.

[xultar]

21. We're all Pro Life, Liberals & Progressives are better Pro-Lifers than

wingnuts.

We're Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. They are ANTI-CHOICE.

We are not Abortionists or Abortion Rights people, we are Pro-Life Pro Choice.

They are Anti-Choice and Anti-Humanists. They don't care about the babies after they are born. They want to send the babies off to war. They want to kill innocent babies, and innocent civilians in war.

We are Pro-Life cuz we are Anti WAR and Humanists. We are Pro-Choice because we care about women.

[shockra]

22. I'm tired of it too.

Especially people who say they're pro-life, but wouldn't tell anybody *else* what to do about their pregnancy. What is that supposed to mean? That they think they're actually differentiating themselves from pro-choicers by saying they'd rather fetuses were born? That DOES make it sound like pro-choicers *prefer* fetuses being aborted to being born.

It really rankles a lot of people that women are *ever* allowed to make life or death choices. Men have always determined who lives or who dies, and often on a whim. (Seems there's more than a little projection here, since anti-abortionists think women abort on a whim.) It's always been men who start the wars, play power games with people's lives through politics, commit the majority of the murders. They don't want women to confer that privilege on themselves, it's supposed to be a male bastion of superiority.

It serves their purpose to pronounce that fetuses are already people. For one thing it causes more emotional divisiveness through cognitive dissonance over the concept of woman as "nurturer." She can't be (allowed to be) a "killer," too.

[MooPie]

31. You are dead on.

Pun intended. IMHO it all comes down to power and control and the sorry status of women in our society where we would subordinate them to a fetus. Giving women "control" over their reproductive systems deprives society of control over women. By allowing women the freedom to make choices, we allow them to compete on an equal playing field rather than being able to assign them to a specific role in society.
I feel anti-abortionists for the most part do not give a damn about the living but rather harbor a form misogyny complicated by a peculiar fetal worship, and even that's questionable. If they cared so much about "life" our nation would not have the record numbers of impoverished and abused children, as well as all of the other people who live under woeful conditions. Pro-life my ass.

[Malva Zebrina]

24. I have tried several times to point it out

Reason, logic and fact get pushed aside. People who are proud to be "pro-life" appear to be flush with the idea that they are "potential" saints for being the advocate for the "potential" human being and they love the love they feel deep within their sanctimonious souls when imagining a full blown "baby"(sometimes talking and cute with the added dimension of a soul) is present in a blastocele.

The "pro-life" meme has been repeated so often by the religious right, that it has now become some unrefutable truth and those who adopt it, religious right or not, have succumbed to the religious right.

People it seems, and more than a few on DU, have bought the language the right has drummed into their naive and vulnerable consciousness. It reminds me of the Bush "support the troops" meme that was latched onto by liberals for fear that not saying, displaying or asserting that amounted to nothing less than being perceived as treasonous, anti-americans, anti-loving, pro-Saddam ghouls.

This is what seems to have happened here also.


We need to stop adopting the language and the memes of the fascist right , whether preached from the pulpit or from the office of George Bush or on Pat Reobertson's 700 club.

This embracing of their language, has hurt women.

[Q]

25. Exactly right...it's like the 'Clear Skies' initiative...

...which allows industry to pollute our skies and water.

Women and Blacks have traditionally supported the Democratic party because they felt it was the only party that represented them in the past. The party is already losing the support of Blacks because in 2000 (and now in 2004) they refused to support investigations into massive civil rights abuses.

And now the party machine is installing 'democrats' in leadership roles who are outright opposed to 'choice'. They are foolhardy to believe that women and people of conscience will continue to support a party that seems to be blending with the fascists on the right.

[sherilocks]

26. Just shows how well the repugs have brainwashed

the public when DUers use the term pro-life to describe people who would rather see a pregnant woman die than allow her to choose an abortion.

[Q]

29. Well...they've been at it a long time...

...starting with the campaigns of the 'moral majority'...now known as the 'christian' coalition. That's why they have jumped in bed with a republican government. In exchange for supporting the Bushies with their time, money and votes...in return they get a government that literally ignores the Bill of Rights and pushes an agenda for the 'reiigious' right.

And make no mistake...this whole 'pro-life' thing is all about religion and government joining forces to take us back to a time when commoners were thought of as chattel and women simply breeders for the state.

[corker]

27. pro birth n/t

[lulu]

30. Also, pro-woman

My great grandmother had 12 children. When she finally decided that enough was enough, she refused sex with my great grandfather. She was still in her 40s and still able to have children. She was a midwife and had seen women die after bearing multitudes of children. My great grandfather then left my great grandmother, sold their farm (given to them by her father as a marriage gift) out from under her, making her homeless. He then hooked up with his younger secretary and used the money to travel to the Holy Land. He was a church minister.

A womb is not public property, owned by the husband, the boyfriend, the government. A womb belongs to a woman.

[yellowdogintexas]

32. Pro criminalization is more like it

Pro life would be much more appropriate if they were willing to take on the responsibility for all those babies after they are born, with all the medical problems, emotional problems, poverty, that can accompany an unwanted birth

[greenohio]

34. We got it from Dean. He's the one that said we should use the

term just change the meaning. I knew he was a DLC plant.

[Q]

36. Thanks for your drive-by posting...

...irrelevant to the topic and nothing more than a hit on a Democrat who believes in choice. I'll take note that you didn't bother with your own opinion.

[greenohio]

41. I didn't use the term pro-life until Dean said to. I always

called them anti-choice. Are you saying Dean is wrong to use the term pro-life?

[sonicx]

48. you don't have a mind of your own?

[greenohio]

54. Dean is our saviour. Where have you been?

[x_y_no]

40. please quit it already ...

This crap is unproductive.

[greenohio]

42. Quit what?

"I have long believed that we ought to make a home for PRO-LIFE Democrats. The Democrats that have stuck with us, who are pro-life, through their long period of conviction, are people who are the kind of pro-life people that we ought to have deep respect for. Not only are they pro-life, which, I think, is a moral judgment--I happen to be strongly pro-choice, as a physician--but they are pro-life more moral reasons. They also, if they're in the Democratic Party, are real pro-life. That is, they're pro-life not just for unborn children. They're pro-life for investing in children's programs. They're pro-life for helping small children and young families. They're pro-life in making sure adequate medical care happens to children."

H. Dean

Hes not avoiding the term, he is trying to redefine it.

[Q]

50. Appreciate you coming back to explain yourself...

...but Dean trying to be a peacemaker has nothing to do with the way anti-abortion RWingers use 'pro-life' to demean and stereotype the pro-choicers as 'baby-killers' and worse. They're intentionally trying to distract from the real intent of the choice position: leaving the decision up to the woman instead of the state.

[greenohio]

53. Make up my mind here. Do you want us using pro-life or not?

Dean is using "pro-life". Do you, or do you not, have a problem with the term?

[Cheswick2.0]

65. The poster knows that

[Donna Zen]

35. roe v wade

Overturning R v W means nothing less than being: Pro-putting the government in our bedrooms. A position that includes giving the government the authority to order abortions a la China. Losing our Constitutional rights as currently defined, puts us at the mercy of any laws the government comes up with.

[housewolf]

37. I agree - we should NEVER

use the term "pro-life" to define their position. It is a distortion of their position. We need to beat the drum over and over again that they are ANTI - anti-choice, anti-abortion RIGHTS, anti-freedom, anti-woman's rights. If they are pro- anything, it's pro-control or pro-regulation.

Everytime we use the term "pro-life" in reference to their position, we show that we have caved in to their frame of the debate. We can't do that anymore. We need to own our own positions and frame them in language that benefits us, not them.

AND we need to convince our leaders to do the same! I saw Dean on "Meet the Press" a couple of weeks ago and cringed over and over as he referred to their position as "pro-life." Our leaders do not help us when they do that.

[countryjake]

39. Couldn't we somehow take back that word?

I've had some of "those people" get pretty voracious real quick on me, when I point out that they are just saying they're "anti-choice". They seem to be one step ahead in their rhetoric, as the line for that is, "No, we're for giving babies a choice, too!"

Why couldn't a movement begin that makes the word "Life" repugnant to them...turn the tables on them, the same way they've made "abortion" & "liberal" dirty words!

How's about we make up some bumper stickers or buttons that say,

"LIFE - Liberals for Inherent Freedoms and Equality"

[Hippo_Tron]

43. Many DUers here describe themselves as pro life, and by that...

They mean that they don't like abortion but that they are not anti-choice.

[Catchawave]

44. I'm old enough, I think....?

What did they call it before Roe v Wade?

Please rent, if you (generic) can, "Love With The Proper Stranger", from the 50's? Natalie Wood/Steve McQueen.

[countryjake]

45. Equality...

- equal pay for equal work, contraception & abortion on demand. It was women's liberation, pure & simple. Began in early 60s with factory workers, demanding pay checks as high as their male equivalents doing exactly the same job; no more "Class A" & Class B" job classifictions. College women picked up on that struggle & extended it to include the right to determine our own fertility.

Key here is that it was the working class & intelligentsia who led the movement, joined at the hip toward a common goal. Without that unity, I think we would have never won; it always was & remains about Equality for all.

[Jade Fox]

46. Many are in reality Anti-Sexually Active Women....

If we women would all just be good girls and keep our legs crossed,
unwanted pregnancy would not be a problem. If not, we deserve what
we get.

If the anti-abortion movement were truely interested in ending abortion
they would be promoting sex education, and new innovative forms of
birth control.

Making abortion illegal will only drive it underground at the cost of women's
lives.

[Zhade]

51. Indeed. They're pro-birth and anti-self-sovereignty.

NT!

[48pan]

52. By the same logic...

We're pro-abortion. I think we have won the rhetoric framing battle on this one. They can be as pro-life as they want, as long as we can be pro-choice instead of pro-abortion.

[BrklynLiberal]

55. That "pro-life" crap is the RW fundie Neocon "framing" of their

"position". They have forced use to us "Pro-choice" It does NOT mean babykilling(As Donna Brazile has so stupidly said in her most recent public statement) Pro-choice stands for a lot more than abortion. It means equitable and easy access to women's health options, and health alternatives both here and elsewhere in the world for both the poor and the rich alike, it means adequate prenatal and postnatal health care and health information for both mother and child, it means adequate education and nutrition for pregnant women and children the world over, it means adequate birth control education for both the poor and the rich, the world over. There is so very, very much more to CHOICE than mere baby-killing and if Donna Brazile, and the other "accommodaters" of the Democratic party cannot explain that, then they should not be representing me and my philosophies or my Democratic party!!!!!! Either they should be Republicans..or I will join the Green party.

[Q]

56. You're right...they won't stop with making abortion illegal...

...they're already fast on their way to making birth control and family planning impossible or difficult to get. They want total control over a woman's body and THEY want to decide if and when they'll bear children. It's the fascist's dream come true.

[AzDar]

60. I agree....I think Pro-choice vs. No-choice should be the new terminology

n/t

[Q]

61. We simply HAVE TO STOP debating on their terms...

...and by their rules. We're not 'unpatriotic' or 'anti-American' for insisting that our government not start aggressives wars against nations that pose no threat. We're not 'baby-killers' for insisting that women be treated as equals and having the right to make their own decisions. We're not 'elitists' for demanding that these decisions are left to the woman instead of the state.

Let's define the terms and force the RWingers to debate with our rules for a change.

[rfkrfk]

62. the 'terms', don't fool anyone

Everybody, of voting age, knows what the deal is.
...
IMO, we should state our beliefs, with honesty and integrity.
Don't try to fool people.

[rman]

64. not so sure of that

The mass media generally do not go very deeply into the issues. So many people know very little about the issues, which makes it difficult for them to make rational decisions regarding their stance on those issues.

That's why many people base their stance on issues more on emotions then on rational thought.

If pretty much all you've got to go on is the popular name of an issue, then your judgment is likely to be based largely on whether or not it sounds good;
people want to live so "pro life" sounds good
people want to be free so "new freedom initiative" sounds good
people want clean air so "clean air act" sound good

Imagine rebups would call the abortion issue "anti-choice", don't you think that would affect people's stance on that issue?

Of course there are people on both sides of various issues who are informed (especially wrt abortion) - those people are not the target group for these 'slogans'. But a large part of the population is poorly informed and swaying the opinion of these people either way can be the determining factor in gaining majority support for either side of any issue.

[rfkrfk]

67. Most people, are not as shallow, as you would imply

Sadly, some are.
Think long term.
People change over time.

[rman]

75. it's not a matter of being shallow

it's a matter of being stupified by the media.

[rfkrfk]

76. If people won't think for themselves...

then, that's a problem.
With that said, I don't think that there are lots of people like
that, at least on this issue.
{there are some people that are not 'one issue voters'.}
IMO, it is not worth alienating some people, who might take offense
at the name game switcherooo.

[rman]

77. the question is

do we have to debate on the terms set by republicans?

would it be better to call the anti-abortion stance "pro-life", or "anti-choice"?

should we call tax cuts "tax relief" or should we point out that reducing taxes reduces "investment in America"?

[rfkrfk]

80. members of the group, usually chose the groups' name

non-members, usually, are not invited to make that decision.
You can't expect your opponents to help you with your rhetoric.
..........
How do you feel about trying to get states to repeal
abortion laws?, in Dem-friendly states.
I don't see much chatter about that.

[leesa]

68. Absolutely! The fascists who support Bush and his genocidal murders

have no business calling themselves "pro-life".

[MaryBear]

71. Whose power is at stake?

It is the woman's power to control her own body. Anti-choice, pro-choice, anti-abortion, pro-abortion -- the argument comes down to who has the power to control the woman.

Abortion is bad -- psychologically and, often, physically -- for the woman. So is using a public rest room and not washing her hands. Yet, Ultimately in a free society an individual has choice. Let's truly empower women so they are able to make good choices for themselves. Trust me, an empowered woman would avoid an unwanted pregnancy if she could. And she may well not view her self worth as based on bedding a man, in the first place.

BTW, although I like men, and I am neither pro nor anti abortion, per se, I am strongly in support of a woman's control of her own body. Shall I call myself "pro-right-to-make-an-informed choice"?

Thank you, Q, for reminding us of the importance of words.

[zulchzulu]

72. It's really "Pro-Fetal Government Intervention"

Usually the people who are "pro-life" love the war and capital punishment.

Call it what it is. Having the government intervene on a woman's personal health issues and declare her to be less of a person and not allowing a safe medical procedure to occur is exactly what the issue is.

Basing that life begins "at conception" is to use intangible theocratic nomanclature as some kind of faux-scientific "fact".

[NightTrain]

73. I've never called them that; for me, it's always been "anti-choice."

Of course, I occasionally run into an anti-choicer who calls our side "pro-death." :eyes:

[The Judged]

74. Republican Revolutionary Lexicon starting to get to you? lol

You're right, um left, um correct!

[Q]

78. There is no 'right or left' on this issue...

...just right versus wrong. I can't believe Dems have fallen into this trap of thinking they have to compromise with RWingers over whether a woman or the state should decide about abortion and family planning.

But the answer is simple: in free countries, the woman decides. In banana republics or dictatorships the state decides.

[CTLawGuy]

79. I say we use

pro-choice vs. pro-big-government