I have a Republican friend that constantly complains about Dems....

[Darkhawk32]

raising taxes. Is there any evidence I can use that goes against that claim?

Thx :)

[LittleClarkie]

1. You could point out Republicans who do the same

Our Governor turned Sec of Health and Human Services turned ordinary citizen, Tommy Thompson, for example.

We used to call him "tax and spend Tommy." Considering how long he'd been Governor, you'd think someone would have noticed that our taxes hadn't gone down under the old Republican. But no, he just incumbented his way into term after term.

[iamjoy]

2. Ask If Your Friend Likes

public roads
public libraries
public parks
police
fire fighters
teachers
cheap produce*
clean water
sewer systems
national defense
FDIC**
FEMA**

*the govt subsidizes farmers, our food would cost more if they didn't
**knowing the money you put in the bank won't be lost if the bank fails
***aid when a tornado, flood or other natural disaster hits

[unpossibles]

11. not just cheap produce

but all food - cows and pigs and such animals who eat grain (well, when we aren't feeding them other cows and pigs and such... :puke: ), are all subsidized much more so because of the amount of water and grains necessary to raise an animal.

One estimate I have read (and this was 15 years ago) that if water subsidies did not go to cattle farmers, cheap ground beef would cost at least $30 per pound. I don't have it in front of me, so this figure may be a bit off, but I know it costs us in the 100's of millions of dollars per year.

some stats can be found on google, but are quite varied as it is hard to say how much water goes into growing feed, water for the animals themselves, and water used to drain waste. In contrast, if we eat more veggies, not only is it better for us, but also better for the environment and not as financially wasteful.

"Agriculture in the west occurs largely in arid to semiarid regions and requires large water subsidies. It takes about 2500 gallons of water to produce 1 LB of beef, 1600 gallons of water to produce 1 LB of pork, 815 gallons to produce 1 LB of chicken."
from: http://users.sisqtel.net/tcreek/bwaterefficmarkd.htm

I like to use this argument when discussing this with people who like to passionately call for a "free market" away from regulations and socialist dogma. I remind them that we all use more social systems than we are aware, from roads to food to public safety to education grants and beyond.

Tax and spend Democrat is yet another ad campaign by the Repukes to make everyone else look bad. Sadly, it has sunk in, much like the "success" of trickle-down economics.

[Spinzonner]

3. Why not ask them why

The Republicans aren't just spending tomorrows taxes with their "Borrow and Spend' ways.

And the interest payments are going to their base and foreign friends who finance it instead of the money being used for the benefit of the country.

[Warpy]

4. Reagan raised taxes 6 times

He raised FICA taxes on the poorest. He also closed a lot of the tax loopholes people of modest means used, like the deduction for credit card interest and (cruelest of all) the deduction for out of pocket health care costs.

Bush I raised everybody's income taxes.

Bush II created such a budget disaster that states and cities were forced to raise local property and sales taxes, things that once again fall most heavily on everybody who aint rich.

When Clinton raised taxes, he raised them only on the wealthy. Kerry would have done the same.

Now ask your dumb friend why he votes to have HIS taxes raised, because that's what the GOP always does to the middle class!

[Darkhawk32]

5. Ok, to add more fuel....

Before * came into office, my friend made about $35,000 a year (for MO, that's not bad). He was laid off from his job and had to take one that pays $24,000 a year.

He loves Bush because he saved 6% on his taxes last year. 6% of the TAXES, not his total income. How much could that have possibly have been considering he also has a son? $20??

[NuttyFluffers]

10. say to him "Bush saved you from taking home 31% of your hard earned money"

and he agrees, just laugh and say, 'idiot.' if he gets it, that his salary went down 30% because of this bush economy, cool, then rub salt into the wound until he winces. if not, laugh behind his back; tell him he should repeat what you said to others. if he's stupid he can make himself look like a fool to more people.

and yes, i'm not a very 'gentle' friend when they are thinking stupid. if you can, you are a better person than i.

[DieboldMustDie]

12. So he took a 31% pay cut and saved 6% on his taxes...

and he thinks this is a good thing? :crazy:

[Nay]

13. You'd be surprised at the number of people who think this way.

It's amazing. It's like being happy to successfully beg back fifty cents for bus fare from an armed robber who has just beaten you up and taken your whole wallet.

You can't fix stupid.

[DBoon]

6. Has this friend ever benefited from government programs?

Went to public schools?

Went to a state university?

Drives on tax-funded roads?

Goes to publicly owned and operated beachs, mountain resorts, etc?

Would call the police for a serious crime?

Expects a publicly financed fire department to come running is his/her house catches on fire? (see The Onion, "Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department", ref in http://www.everythingisnt.com/archives/00001381.htm )

And if taxes did not fund these activities, how much do you think the private service charges would be?

Getting rid of taxes doesn't mean you suddenly get the services for free.

[WMliberal]

7. how abot that time Clinton raised the taxes on the richqand then we had a

HUGE economic boom.

I think it was called the 1990's.

[EC]

8. I pointed out to my brother in law

that I went to college on Pell Grants
my daughter went to college on pell grants

I went back to college to upgrade on displaced homemaker grant


and asked him what government programs he took advantage of...
He, went to college on pell grants
first time homeowners loans
small business loans etc...so when he began to notice that it isn't only "lazy" welfare people (which I pointed out was a small segment that need these services), that the bulk of the people helped are you and me, everyone..


Being taxed isn't the problem, it's where the money goes...With the Republican's it seems to go into their pockets- this you can see by the corps that fund them and lobby them. The same with the Dems, but look who funds and lobbies them, the unions, the schools, these are representative of the peoples needs... So, since we have to pay taxes anyway, and they are not going to go down...what programs do you want funded? Who do you want to help? Who is actually for the greater good?

[eleny]

9. Just tell your friend that we like to pay as we go

As someone else pointed out, the Rs like to borrow and spend. Ask which way is the ideal to run their household. Case closed.

[LynnTheDem]

14. "READ MY LIPS"

NO NEW TAXES.

So lied Poppa bush right before raising taxes to what was, I believe, a record amount in US history.

TAX AND SPEND MYTHS V. REALITIES

Republicans allege that Democrats are Tax and Spend Liberals. Is that true? Not really!

Indeed, it could be argued that the opposite is true- namely that Republicans are tax and spend conservatives.

http://www.eriposte.com/economy/tax/tax_n_spend_truths.htm

DEMOCRATS v. REPUBLICANS on the issue of the U.S. ECONOMY

http://www.eriposte.com/economy/other/demovsrep.htm

Tax and Spend vs. Borrow and Spend: McCain and the GOP’s False Choices

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3459.html

"The Congress will push me to raise taxes and I'll say no. And they'll push, and I'll say no, and they'll push again. And I'll say to them: 'Read my lips -- No. New. Taxes.'"

After Bush won the election, of course he raised taxes. He always knew he was going to have to do it -- it was inevitable.

In fact, Bush signed the largest tax increase in history.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-hw-bush/

[hollowdweller]

15. Isn't it funny how the GOP manages to use peoples greed to their advantage

People will go nuts over their taxes going up 10 bucks even if it means tens of thousands of people will live a better life. Where's their Christian chairity?

[0007]

16. I'd have to say you have a pretty dumb friend. Most repukes

think along those lines.

[NewJeffCT]

17. Didn't Reagan sign one of the biggest % increases in history?

Early on, he slashed income taxes on millionaires, but then a year later, he turned around & raised the regressive payroll tax.

[justa]

21. yes, I believe in 86.

It's still the largest increase as a % of the GDP ever.

[snippy]

18. Your friend is just another republican welfare queen.

The republican welfare queens think that all of their government benefits should be free.

[FormerDittoHead]

19. *CURRENT* BUSH TAX PLAN *RAISES* TAXES - Newsweek

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4660655

basically: scheduled changes in the Alternative Minimum Tax will dramatically increase the burden on tax payers.

It's somewhat complicated, however, for those who are "confused" by multiple tax brackets. It's not the Democrat's plan, however.

Excerpt:

"About 2.3 million returns for 2003 got nipped by the AMT, and that could rise to more than 30 million by 2010. This year's (2004) new victims ranged from a two-person New Jersey family with big state- and local-tax deductions to a seven-person family in rural Kansas taking the standard deduction. In a tongue-in-cheek calculation in the July 7 issue of Tax Notes, tax mavens Leonard Burman, Bill Gale and Jeff Rohaly calculated that in 2008, the government would realize more revenue by abolishing the income tax and keeping the AMT intact than it would get by abolishing the AMT and leaving the income tax intact. It makes your head spin."

[dawg]

20. I don't like tax increases either!

But I prefer them to government borrowing. Tax increases fall largely on those with the means to pay. Gov't borrowing drives up interest rates, adding hardship to those who are already in debt.

Gov't borrowing, except in situations of extreme need, is also profoundly unfair to future generations.

[Bush was AWOL]

22. Taxing and spending works just fine. Tell your friend to take a look

at 93 through 2000.