Dean endorses electronic national ID cards?

[wyldwolf]

Honestly, not trying to start a Dean flame war. And the source this is from, to me, is a leftwing Drudge or Newsmax.

on edit: I'd be against this no matter who endorsed it.

But here is what Counterpunch is running:

Privacy Piracy?
What Howard Dean May Bring to the DNC
By JOSHUA FRANK

A year before Howard Dean announced his bid for the presidency; he spoke at a Pittsburg event sponsored by a "smart-card" firm, Wave Systems, which was a sure sign Dean was fast running away from his grassroots support, and right into the arms of the corporate elite. At the conference Dean announced that he hoped to one day implement a national identification card that would discourage online terrorism and identity theft, which would ultimately make Wave Systems a very rich corporation.

"We must move to smarter license cards that carry secure digital information that can be universally read at vital checkpoints," Dean explained during his speech in March 2002. "Issuing such a card would have little effect on the privacy of Americans." Dean's Star Trek like fantasy went as far as to state that the Federal government should mandate the implementation of ID card readers in all personal computers. The computer could then only be accessed once the system user inserted his or her national ID number into the security login.

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank12282004.html

[politicaholic]

1. That's not Howard Dean, that's MechanoDean, built by the neocons...

It looks and sounds like Howard Dean, but its not. It's a mechanical look-a-like that the neocons roll out at press conferances when their wacky ideas are so outragious they need a voice to legitimize the idea.

Howard Dean is safely at home in Vermont...with the television off.

[genius]

84. That's part of the reason I didn't back him for President.

This is old news. He is not a progressive. However, he is outspoken, something we need in a DNC Chairman.

[Inland]

2. Sounds good to me.

I never had a problem with a national identity card. We already have easily forgeable state identity cards. We already have our identitifying information in easily stealable form. We already have information that can be "read at vital checkpoints" in the form of easily copied ID badges. All that we lack is a universally read ID.

And the cheap shot that an ID card would make the suppliers of ID cards rich--thanks for showing why we can't possibly win another elecion, since no policy can be proposed without a mau-mauing. Hey, dope, you could have the Fed gov't implement the system, putting the technology to read the matters in the public domain. Then private enterprise could fall all over themselves creating hardware and software for a competitive price.

[madfloridian]

3. If you want to quote Josh Frank on Dean.....I can quote him on...

all the others.

SNIP..."I'm from Vermont and believe me, government is kept at a respectful but very conscious distance," Dean said. "Reality demands that we understand, first, that the rise of empowered individuals whose single mission is to destroy Americans means that we have to fight them at an INDIVIDUAL level and second-that we have already ceded our private information to faceless credit card companies and direct marketers who then sell it for a profit. Now-I believe that our nation has the technological capacity to protect both our privacy and our way of life."(They already have it, we have to control it.)

He touted, "We will not, and should not, tolerate a call to erode privacy even further-far from it. Americans can only be assured that their personal identity and information are safe and protected when they are able to gain more control over this information and its use."

Now I don't debate the merits, but he was thinking very rationally on this. Before you start quoting Josh Frank on Dean, do a search on Josh Frank on Clark....then see if you think he is fair.

He uses some individuals as sources who might be considered really really prejudiced.

[wyldwolf]

5. ok, do it if it will make you feel better

even though I said, "Honestly, not trying to start a Dean flame war. And the source this is from, to me, is a leftwing Drudge or Newsmax... I'd be against this no matter who endorsed it," if you need to talk about the other democrats instead of addressing the point of the thread, go right ahead.

[madfloridian]

9. Of course you are trying to start a Dean flame war.

Otherwise you would not have quoted Josh Frank on Dean. You would be furious if I posted some of the articles he has about Clark.

Out of respect for others, I don't post them. I wish you felt the same.

[Radical Activist]

11. None of those quotes is a clear statement against national ID cards

Maybe Dean thinks the way to secure our privacy is through a secure national ID system. Do you have any quotes ruling out national ID cards?

[Cheswick2.0]

65. I think I'll take Dean's word for it rather than the ass who wrote the

hit piece for counterpunch.

[NYCGirl]

28. I googled Joshua Frank and the first thing to come up

is an interview with someone named Mickey Z., but the second thing is an article claiming John Kerry is bad on environmental issues. Then there's an article about the "bright side" of re-electing Bush... you don't mind if I don't pay attention to a single word this guy says, do you?

[charlie]

4. Yech

I don't like to hear that kind of talk from anybody. I hope he's reconsidered since then.

[madfloridian]

6. Do the research yourself...don't trust Frank about Dean.

Actually it does not bother me that much the way he was putting it.

This was an issue dug up by the hordes of campaign researchers of other Democrats...oh yeah it is.

[InvisibleBallots]

7. I've always thought this was a non-issue

I fully understand the privacy implications - but we lost our privacy in the early 1990s, and national ID cards aren't going to make a bit of difference. Now I feel complaining about national ID cards is shutting the barn door after the horses already left, or whatever.

[madfloridian]

8. Wyldwolf, you must be getting nervous about Dean now.

If you don't like Counterpunch as a source, but you feel compelled....well, there must be a reason. Maybe you think he might make a difference or contribute to our Democracy?

[wyldwolf]

12. sure there is a reason

1. I don't like counterpunch
2. The writer didn't make the charges up.
3. I'm against such ID cards.
4. Typical response from a hardcore Dean supporter. I put a topic out there for comment and still, no one has refuted it. You just attack the messenger.

Maybe you think he might make a difference or contribute to our Democracy?

Not endorsing national ID cards.

[madfloridian]

20. Is it like Axciom, no fly list, and all that stuff?

Hyped a little for the campaign? Or true and dangerous.

http://www.counterpunch.org/donahue10012003.html

Axciom, the Constitution and the General
Wesley Clark and the "No Fly" List
But as a businessman, Clark has been involved in helping companies sell the Pentagon and the Transportation Security Administration technologies that may threaten the civil liberties and privacy rights of Americans. In a recent profile, the Wall Street Journal reported that "Since retiring from a 34-year Army career in 2000, Gen. Clark has become: chairman of a suburban Washington technology-corridor start-up, managing director at an investment firm, a director at four other firms around the country and an advisory-board member for two others. For most, he was hired to help boost the companies' military business. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Gen. Clark counseled clients on how to pitch commercial technologies to the government for homeland-security applications."

Clark's most controversial role has been as a member of the Board of Directors of Axciom, a Little Rock-based database company that owns some of the most extensive consumer databases in the world. According to the Wall Street Journal, Clark "joined the board of the Nasdaq-traded company in December 2001, as the company started to market its customer-database software to federal agencies eager to hunt for terrorists by scanning and coordinating the vast cyberspace trove of citizen information." Fortune magazine reported that Clark "is spearheading the company's pursuit of contracts with the federal government. For example, the company can retool software that detects insurance fraud and make it screen airline passengers instead. Acxiom is now in talks with several government agencies and has won at least one contract so far."

[wyldwolf]

21. yeah, probably just like that

BUT you have yet to justify Dean's position. Clark isn't running for the highest position in the DNC.

[janx]

24. This writer does not portray Dean's position.

He's so far left that he doesn't portray an accurate rendition of anyone's position. In fact, he downright lies. It's not unusual in journalism these days.

Would you like some examples?

Edit: I see that madfloridian beat me to it.

[Sparkly]

22. Is it possible to have a thread about Dean w/o Clark-bashing?

Didn't think so. :eyes:

[janx]

36. MF is bashing the source, Sparkly--as well she should.

Joshua Frank is an equal opportunity distorter of information, as long he can fabricate his distortions to meet his own narrow worldview.

[madfloridian]

38. Oh, and there is lots more disinfo at the source, on all candidates.

It will be quite painful to bring it out. It will make Dean's saying we need to control the way they handle our privacy....seem like nothing at all.

[janx]

42. I know, but I don't find it painful.

Maybe it's because I see his technique--I don't know, the result is so hyped and exaggerated that it might pass for satire!

It's THAT BAD! ;-)

[madfloridian]

44. You might be right.

Too bad to pass for satire.
:evilgrin:

[madfloridian]

23. Not when it is being done in this manner.

SNIP..."I'm from Vermont and believe me, government is kept at a respectful but very conscious distance," Dean said. "Reality demands that we understand, first, that the rise of empowered individuals whose single mission is to destroy Americans means that we have to fight them at an INDIVIDUAL level and second-that we have already ceded our private information to faceless credit card companies and direct marketers who then sell it for a profit. Now-I believe that our nation has the technological capacity to protect both our privacy and our way of life."(They already have it, we have to control it.)

He touted, "We will not, and should not, tolerate a call to erode privacy even further-far from it. Americans can only be assured that their personal identity and information are safe and protected when they are able to gain more control over this information and its use."

[Tinoire]

10. You seriously don't think you're helping Clark do you? / On edit

On edit... never mind. Maybe your intent wasn't malicious but as a non-Dean supporter, I really have to tell you that this type of morbid fascination with Dean can be easily misinterpreted.

[madfloridian]

13. Actually the more I read about what Dean actually said.....

it is very practical. I do think he is a little less supportive of it now, though.

[wyldwolf]

16. why do you think he is less supportive of it now?

[Tinoire]

17. I am totally against it. And it's things like this that bother me

but then again, I haven't read his explanation. I just don't see whatever possible good it would do us as outweighing what it will inevitably be used for.

Edit: spelling

[wyldwolf]

15. I know the charges against Clark.

... but I'm asking specifically for clarifications on Dean.

[Tinoire]

18. Neither one of them is running right now

and even if we knew they were, it's waaay too early for flame wars.

100,000 dead... I'd prefer to hear what both Dean and Clark have to say about it... but you're right, national idea cards are important too... just not the most pressing issue at this moment I think.

[wyldwolf]

19. Tinoire, good post... however...

...Dean is a favorite around here for the DNC chair.

And just as the other frontrunners for the position have been raked over the coals, so to speak, for their positions and idealogy, I feel no one should be free of scrutiny before the DNC chair is selected.

[Tinoire]

29. Ok. Good point about the DNC chairmanship. Makes sense

I'm against it. Haven't read his explanation but I'm totally against it. I must add though that when I lived in Germany, every German citizen was required by law to carry an ID card.

Regardless, I am still against it. Vehemently. I don't want to go down any slippery slopes.

In fairness, now I have to go read what he said and why though, and this is in no way a slam at you or anyone else talking about this, I can't right now... the catastrophe in the Indian Ocean, the possibility of yet another, a differnt, tsunami hitting the West Coast, that obscene war in Iraq, Cheney's little excursion into Ukrainia, China and Russia deciding to hold their first ever joint military exercise immediately after that Sept 04 PNAC letter to Russia, just having looked at these photos

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28&page=1

and so on and so on, I feel it has all come apart. The center has totally let go. It's a mind-boggling nightmare. National ID cards are important. Thank you and Madfloridian for keeping an eye on this. I just don't have the strength right now to even care because I feel myself becoming totally numb to all this horror.

IS THERE NO GOOD NEWS TODAY????? Anywhere? No small corner of refuge?

[charlie]

35. A smidge of something cheering

Officials at Sri Lanka's largest wildlife reserve haven't found a single dead animal. 40 tourists drowned but the elephants, leopards, hares, etc, cleared out before the waters hit.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=5&u=/nm/20041229/od_nm/wildlife_dc

[Tinoire]

48. Thank you Charlie! That IS cheering!

Now I want to find that post someone started asking "Where are all the animals". That is warm, good news. Thank you!

[madfloridian]

26. Tinoire, check out motive here both for Dean and for Wyldwolf.

I don't really care anymore, as we are going there whether Dean likes them or doesn't like them. His idea was they have it, we need to control it.

[Tinoire]

31. HD makes an excellent point. I'm just so tired of watching the Right wing

define our talking points & putting us on a defensive like that. But the Right is on the offense.

:hug:

I almost wrote in my previous post to Wldwolf, at the end... "Fuck it, they can brand me for all I care, just stop this war". That's how tired I am and really not caring though I know we need to keep caring.

:hug:

Did you ever think we would live to see these things?

[madfloridian]

37. I said in a post earlier in another forum....and I will say it now.

We are going to self-destruct. The same people, including Clark and Clinton, who did not want Dean to advance in the primaries, will never let him advance now. He has brilliant ideas for our country, he in his book admitted his stance on NAFTA had changed and he told why.

He is a good man, very strong for America, very outspoken, but we have gone too far now in the hatred.

But not a single person is good enough for some, NOR left enough for some.

We will self-destruct. This issue was played out here so thoroughly during the primaries, and now it starts again. This post was not a good idea. Dean is about the only one speaking out at all right now, and the same ones here are trying to destroy again.

[Tinoire]

51. Unfortunaly it wasn't. The timing doesn't seem right 4 this sort of thing

What a heart-breaking week! And what an appropriate time to use the word "self-destruct". Everything seems to be self-destructing right now. This is why I am going to take a hot bath, put on some music and try to re-balance for a while.

Have faith, have patience like you have had.

:hug: you are not alone but you are so valiant in your pursuit of truth. I love you Madfloridian.

You know Dean isn't left enough for me. But I'll take him. His heart and the heart of his movement are in the right place. People like Dean are the progressive center where I am willing to meet my moderate Dem friends but not one inch, not one millimeter more to the right because there's a line and I'm not going to cross it. Never again. I've seen the results of bi-partisanship and compromise. They're all around us today. NEVER, EVER AGAIN.

Thanks for letting me rant :hug:

[madfloridian]

53. I realize that you are way to our left.

And that is ok. He is the one speaking out the most now, trying to put out sensible thoughts.

Yes, it is self-distructive.

Love you, too, Tinoire, you old lefty you.

:hug:

[Tinoire]

54. Lol

I honestly consider you as to the left and very close to me. I am not as leftist as people think- just very very anti anything neoliberal or neoconservative. Always voted Dem though at the local level it's because I was fortunate enough to have Dems I really like.

If you recall, before the primaries we were very united in what we wanted and how we wanted it. I'm still with you. I don't want the shock and awe to our system that many Leftists do. But what I also don't want is people who come taking about bi-partisanship or pragmatism because they care more about their portfolios than anything else. I don't see Dean that way and I don't see any of his supporters that way... That's why it wouldn't be a compromise for me to support Dean.

Take care... I took a warm shower, had a few glasses of chai with vanilla cream and now am feeling so much better. Thanks for your warmth! You old lefty you ;) (Argh, how I hate those labels!)
:hug:

[madfloridian]

55. You see "real" in a person.

That is why you understand. You see through fake and pretense.
You would make a fine Deaniac someday. Sorry couldn't resist that.

:loveya:

[Tinoire]

56. LMAO!

:loveya: too!

[Uzybone]

14. I hope he is not for this

its a crazy idea.

But of course I already see some defending it.

edit: counterpunch? Id have to see it from a reputable source.

[DaveinMD]

25. I've said it about others I'll say it about Dean

It doesn't matter what the DNC Chair thinks about policy. Its not a policy position. Its about building the party. Candidates takes positions on policy matters. The job of the DNC is to get those candidates elected.

[Tinoire]

32. I was going to make that point because that's how it should be but

but in practice, they cross that line over and over again.

[DaveinMD]

33. they do lots wrong

but they don't really set policy. The leaders in Congress do. The main problems with the party have been that they seem to be over-concerned with fundraising at the expense of party building, hiring the same people that keep losing campaigns, and lackluster performance on the punditry circuit.

[DemOperative]

27. pretty far stretch isn't that?

from a smart license to the mark of the beast.

This debate took place when they wanted a national standard to put PICTURES on drivers licenses in the 60's. It took place again in the 80's over thumbprints.

More to the point is why there is such rampant paranoia about Dean from the usual suspects.

Do you honestly think things will improve in this country if Dean is marginalized?

Think about this.

[madfloridian]

30. Here is a page which has SENSIBLE discussion of this from January.

I could post this kind of thread just to make people mad, but I find it hurtful to the party and to all of us. This page has links and examines what was really being said here. It even agrees with part of it, and it shows the positive/negative.

This reaches the conclusion that privacy is basically a myth now, is this age of information.

http://www.discourse.net/archives/2004/01/update_howard_dean_on_id_cards_not_so_bad_but_not_so_good.html


SNIP...."Larry, like the first commentator on the earlier item, also points to the Register’s timely reminder that the source of this report has a very bad track record for carelessly sliming Democrats on tech issues. Fair enough.

SNIP..."Indeed, the full text of Dean’s speech isn’t as bad as the news account made it sound. It does contain many nods towards privacy rights. And it actually makes a point I agree with — the current privacy baseline is low, as we’ve ceded a lot of privacy already. Having said that, though, it does seem to me that this speech is fairly described as a strong endorsement of ubiquitious smart card readers (not mandatory, just standards-driven) for PCs in order to create a world in which communications are better authenticated, and access to information can be more properly rationed (e.g. age restrictions). Would that be a better world? I have my doubts. Is it a likely world? Alas, yes. Could it be implemented in ways that are more or less evil? Absolutely, and I’ll have lots to say about that in coming months....."

[madfloridian]

34. This paragraph by Frank is outrageous. He just makes it up.

I have other examples as well of what he has done and written, and I seldom accept it as good journalism. He has gone after all of our candidates fiercely.

SNIP..."A year before Howard Dean announced his bid for the presidency; he spoke at a Pittsburg event sponsored by a "smart-card" firm, Wave Systems, which was a sure sign Dean was fast running away from his grassroots support, and right into the arms of the corporate elite. At the conference Dean announced that he hoped to one day implement a national identification card that would discourage online terrorism and identity theft, which would ultimately make Wave Systems a very rich corporation...."

Wyldwolf, how in hell could he be running from grassroots support when he was not even running?

Did you even read his premise?

That outrageous first paragraph shows his bias so strongly? You did not need to do this. Dean was being practical in an approach to a problem that has already happened.

So if you can't figure out what he is saying....then don't vote for him for anything.

[janx]

39. He makes everything up, essentially by injecting his opinion

and pawning it off as fact. (Hyperbole does wonders for this technique.) It's common in what passes for journalism these days, but it's even more aggregious than the run-of-the-mill gossip, because people like this wind up believing what they write. It's no different from the people who worked on the Arkansas Project.

There is an absence of critical thought on the internet, unfortunately, because sources are so readily available that people aren't wise about which ones they choose to post.

[madfloridian]

41. I think sensible Clark supporters resent the source like we do.

This is such a shame.

[madfloridian]

40. Counterpunch on Kerry, if you really want to see the outrage.

They are truly awful in this article.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07292004.html

I will not even post snips.

If you want to start a flamewar, use a decent source.

[madfloridian]

43. In fact, we want right wing media to be responsible.

Why do we quote such sources as this when they are left leaning? That is two-faced.

[wyldwolf]

46. ok, then... how about this source?

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-5147158.html

There's probably a good reason why Dean spoke so vaguely: It's unclear how such a system would work in practice. Must Internet cafes include uniform ID card readers on public computers? Would existing computers have to be retrofitted? Would tourists be prohibited from bringing laptops unless they sported uniform ID readers? What about Unix shell accounts? How did a politician who is said to be Internet-savvy concoct this scheme?

Perhaps most importantly, does Dean still want to forcibly implant all of our computers with uniform ID readers?

Unfortunately, Dean's presidential campaign won't answer any of those questions. I've tried six times since Jan. 16 to get a response, and all the press office will say is they've "forwarded it on to our policy folks." And the policy shop isn't talking.

Then there are the privacy questions. To curry favor among the progressive types who form the backbone of his campaign, Dean has positioned himself as a left-of-center civil libertarian. He's guest-blogged for progressive doyen Larry Lessig, embraced the Brady Bill and affirmative action, told audiences on the campaign trail that the Bush administration has "compromised our freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism," and pledged to repeal parts of the USA Patriot Act.

It's difficult to reconcile Dean's current statements with his recent support--less than two years ago--for what amounts to a national ID card and a likely reduction in Americans' privacy. "Privacy is the new urban myth," Dean said in that March 2002 speech.

"I know of no other Democratic candidate who has this view on national ID," said Chris Hoofnagle, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "I hope that he'd reconsider his policy on national ID because it has significant affects on individuals' right to privacy and does not make the country more secure. If you think about it, the implication is that children would have to be issued cards as well. Are we talking about ID cards from birth?"

...One prominent group that did support a standardized ID at the time is the New Democrats' public policy wing...

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-5147158.html

[madfloridian]

49. Another source here.

I think people need to run from this bad guy. Good gracious.
This reaches the conclusion that privacy is basically a myth now, is this age of information.

http://www.discourse.net/archives/2004/01/update_howard_dean_on_id_cards_not_so_bad_but_not_so_good.html

SNIP...."Larry, like the first commentator on the earlier item, also points to the Register’s timely reminder that the source of this report has a very bad track record for carelessly sliming Democrats on tech issues. Fair enough.

SNIP..."Indeed, the full text of Dean’s speech isn’t as bad as the news account made it sound. It does contain many nods towards privacy rights. And it actually makes a point I agree with — the current privacy baseline is low, as we’ve ceded a lot of privacy already. Having said that, though, it does seem to me that this speech is fairly described as a strong endorsement of ubiquitious smart card readers (not mandatory, just standards-driven) for PCs in order to create a world in which communications are better authenticated, and access to information can be more properly rationed (e.g. age restrictions). Would that be a better world? I have my doubts. Is it a likely world? Alas, yes. Could it be implemented in ways that are more or less evil? Absolutely, and I’ll have lots to say about that in coming months.....

[janx]

50. You conveniently left off the first paragraph of this guy's

opinion piece:

COMMENTARY--After Howard Dean's unexpected defeat last week in Iowa, public attention has focused on his temper, his character, and that guttural Tyrannosaurus bellow of his not-quite-a-concession speech. But Dean's views on Americans' privacy rights may be a superior test of his fitness to be president.

Some critical thinking would be helpful here. This guy's no better than the last.

[madfloridian]

52. Ah, that is the guy my source was debunking as exaggerating. LOL

Oh, darn it, Wyldwolf, let's have a good source fight. Or better yet, we could both concede that Howard Dean is not an evil man, that he is a pretty good guy who cares about the country.....

Oh, but that might work. Better not.

[wyldwolf]

59. your source didn't "debunk" - it rationalized... like you're doing

[madfloridian]

61. No, I am saying he said more than you admit.

You are out to get what you can to portray Dean as a fake. I get very tired of it. Now I think it is time to post some stuff for you to debunk.

I never denied it, I did not excuse, and I am tired of being attacked.

Most of the Clark people here are like us, they are trying their best to not be critical so Clark and Dean folks can build a coalition for the future.

If you are going to continue to do this, then we need to get all the ugly stuff about everyone out in the open,.....don't you think?

[wyldwolf]

64. More than I admit?

I posted links to the articles. Per DU rules, I can only quote so much of the articles. There is nothing to "admit." The links are there to be followed and read.

I never denied it, I did not excuse, and I am tired of being attacked.

Your spun and justified it.

If you are going to continue to do this, then we need to get all the ugly stuff about everyone out in the open,.....don't you think?

Yeah.. Good idea. Practice what you preach. You want to continue posting things critical of other dems? We CAN get all the ugly stuff out in the open.

[madfloridian]

72. I have done what you asked. I found other sources, gave a reason for it.

If you are going to do this everytime Dean gets attention, we can help you a lot.

[wyldwolf]

77. what, when, and where did I ask anything of you?

Do what everytime Dean gets attention? Post information?

[madfloridian]

85. You keep saying explain it, prove it. You ignore the points I make.

Hey, there is so much more.

[wyldwolf]

88. Where?

What you have provided is someone rationalizing, to confirm your point of view.

[madfloridian]

90. See, that is all you do. You do not give credit.

Ok, more about Clark and the others coming up. But you can't argue because you believe Josh is right on his interpretation....so that is not a tenable position for discussion.

[wyldwolf]

96. Go right ahead

Divert away. Post whatever you want about whoever you want.

It won't change the fact that Dean endorsed a national ID card.

[madfloridian]

100. But you won't read why he said that. You do not want to know.

I am backing off from this. You win.

[wyldwolf]

101. Has Dean gone on record as to why he said it and what he meant?

[PassingFair]

106. So?

Kerry endorsed the Iraq war AND the "Patriot" Act.
Don't you get tired of pulling stuff out-of-context to torpedo Dean?

Last week someone had the gall to post out-of-context content to show that Dean was anti-choice, of all things.

:freak:

[Radical Activist]

45. so the source is bad, but

Has Dean made a direct statement against national ID cards? Just asking. That would clear the whole thing up. Its starting to look like he hasn't come down on either side of the issue.

[madfloridian]

47. This is from the article, which Frank starts out as a fool.

In the first paragraph he accuses Dean of running from the grassroots a year before he began to run.

Dean says this, which sounds like he is thinking of ways to control what is already out there.

SNIP.."SNIP..."I'm from Vermont and believe me, government is kept at a respectful but very conscious distance," Dean said. "Reality demands that we understand, first, that the rise of empowered individuals whose single mission is to destroy Americans means that we have to fight them at an INDIVIDUAL level and second-that we have already ceded our private information to faceless credit card companies and direct marketers who then sell it for a profit. Now-I believe that our nation has the technological capacity to protect both our privacy and our way of life."(They already have it, we have to control it.)

He touted, "We will not, and should not, tolerate a call to erode privacy even further-far from it. Americans can only be assured that their personal identity and information are safe and protected when they are able to gain more control over this information and its use."

[zulchzulu]

57. Maybe Dean is an Ellison Democrat

Larry Ellison wants to make electronic cards a nice little business with Oracle databases and "smart" cards.

Granted, all this is inevitable, but...

I could see Dean going through Oracle to get some money...that's inevitable too. Check out Dean's history with IBM in Vermont.

Google it yourself. Hey, imagine your "smart" card being googleable....hmmmm...

Nothing wrong with Dean...it's politics.

Oh...an old dot-bomb joke if you were digging for e-gold back in the day... What does Oracle stand for? Obnoxious Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison.

[bushclipper]

58. what I see in this thread

Howard Dean endorsing and participating in the corporatism and privacy invasion other Dems (and Repubs) have been accused of.

However, the messenger is being attacked and Dean's actions are being either justified or ignored.

One DU member here actually seems appalled, not that Dean supports this, but that someone would point it out.

So much hypocrisy in one place.

[madfloridian]

60. No, our Dems are the ones who sponsored the DMCA. Why pick on Dean alone?

None of our Democrats are perfect, and they all had things I did not agree with. I challenge you to read the first paragraph of Frank's piece and tell me it is good journalism.

Hollings, Stevens, Inouye, Breaux, Nelson and Feinstein
http://news.dmusic.com/article/4630

"Security Systems Standards and Certification Act (SSSCA)is now a bill in the Senate. Renamed the Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act (CBDTPA ),it prohibits the sale or distribution of nearly any kind of electronic device -- unless that device includes copy-protection standards to be set by the federal government.

Responding to concerns about unauthorized sharing of digital media over the Internet, Sen. Ernest Hollings introduced a bill that would require Silicon Valley and Hollywood to agree on a standard to stop digital piracy. The bill would require any digital device to incorporate copy protection into the device. All computers, vcrs, walkmen, mp3 players, toasters, microwaves. Yep, that's right microwaves. The wording (if it's anything like the draft verson) is so broad that even those devices would be required to have copy protections built in.

It also creates new federal felonies, punishable by five years in prison and fines of up to $500,000. Anyone who distributes copyrighted material with "security measures" disabled or has a network-attached computer that disables copy protection is covered."

[bushclipper]

63. no one is picking on Dean alone

Day after day, hour after hour, I read "Kerry did this" and "the DLC did that" and "Harry Reid is a republican" and all manner of insulting posts about Democrats.

Now, someone posts something substantial and sourced, a legitimate concern (whether the poster likes Dean or not) and there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, killing the messenger, and a great deal of rationalizing all because the target in this instance in Howard Dean.

I was torn between Dean and Clark in the primaries so I feel like I can say this. Dean is not above criticism. People's reaction to Dean being criticized is quite similar to the way Republicans respond when their boy bush is criticized - the messenger is attacked.

[incapsulated]

66. So...

If Kerry or Reid are being attacked, let's go at all the Dems, right?

Tell me why, again?

The reason many supporters of primary candidates respond the way we do is because we've been through all this before and don't like rehashing it all again, we are sick of it. None of us get to vote for DNC Chair, for one, and if you are clueless about Dean, then do your own reasearch, don't rely on thinly veiled attacks on DU for your information.

[bushclipper]

70. you've misinterpreted my statement

Merely, Dean is not above criticism.

Anyone on DU who can ask "why go after Dean alone?" hasn't been following the threads here.

I don't feel I'm relying on attacks on DU for my info. The poster had provided two sources. One that he admits is shadey and the other that is clearly legitimate.

I was here during the primaries and don't recall this particular charge. I do know that the first article quoted is from today. However, I often see articles several years old posted to discredit John Kerry, the DLC, etc.

[incapsulated]

76. Dean, Clark and Kerry

are all lightning rods, and any of their supporters can claim they are being picked on with some legitimacy.

I do remember this issue from the primaries. Unfortunately, I am reminded of all the charges against all the candidates on a almost daily basis, here. Let's move the fuck on, shall we?

[madfloridian]

82. Talk to wyldwolf, I thought we had.

I post pro-Dean since he is running for chair.

[wyldwolf]

89. you also post anti-DLC

[madfloridian]

91. Uh, I just said that wyldwolf, That is what I do. Nothing wrong .

They have hurt this party badly. They had goals that were not good ones.

[wyldwolf]

98. your opinion

Just as it is mine about Dean.

[incapsulated]

92. Fuck the DLC

The DLC is not a single person and is a very different issue.

But screw them as an organization. How anyone can defend this loser "strategy" is beyond me. Knock yourself out, you won't find many takers here.

[incapsulated]

94. I'm not responsible for what he posts

And have no contact with him, either. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

73. Right, let's be equal-opportunity pickers and bashers. My point, exactly.

Ready, set , go.

[bushclipper]

87. Again, let me say

I'm sure people on a daily basis take great joy in posting the anti DNC/DLC/Kerry/Centrists post of the day. Perhaps they feel they are doing us a service?

Of course, those who post anti Dean posts may also feel the information is needed.

So we should all remember next time we choose to demean a fellow democrat, something equalling damning can be dug up on your guy )whoever he/she may be.)

Actually, I'm surprised the moderate dems here haven't responded more agressively to the insulting posts they endure daily.

[madfloridian]

95. I do NOT demean individuals. I demean the DLC, deservedly so.

The DLC is not made up of moderate Dems. A few of them belong, but many have gotten a clue what it is about. Obama asked them to take his name off, that he had not signed up. Corzine decided not to join, and I doubt Dean would be welcome anymore now that he criticized them. Their goals were not for the people.

[incapsulated]

62. Gee, where did I hear this before?

I know, it was back during the fucking primaries.

Why drag all this shit up again? Do you want to start Dean/Clark flame wars? I haven't heard that either of them are in competition against each other for any office, lately.

I support, strongly, Dean for DNC Chair. I honestly think this is one of the few hopes for the survival of the party. And I certainly wouldn't support him if I believed he had a plan to put a Federal Computer Chip ID in my head.

God, I'm sick of this stupid shit.

*pissed off Clarkie*

[janx]

69. But HE DOES, HE DOES!

Not only in your head, but in the heads of your dogs and cats!

;-)

[incapsulated]

78. Actually, that's ok...

But only the kind that lead them home when lost, not the kind that tell you the political history of their owners.

;)

[janx]

103. Wyldwolf is dragging it up again, incap.

I only hope it is not a coordinated effort from the DU Clarkie site. I was very disappointed to look at that one because of the futile and stupid efforts I saw there to manipulate threads on DU.

That was depressing to see.

How far can the "war" metaphor go, anyway?

[madfloridian]

105. Remember the snip I PMed you today?

I will send you the full transcript by email when I get just the Clark portion in a separate mail. That way you don't have to pay. Pop an address or a way to send it in my inbox.

I thought it was such an interesting little snip and explains so much.

We are going to self-destruct as a party, I fear. No one is good enough. No one.

Some Clark folks are trying to be nicer, but a few just won't let up.

[janx]

107. I don't think that most people realize just how far this can go.

Thanks, MF.

Check your in box.

[madfloridian]

109. Transcript on its way.

:hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

67. "Honestly, not trying to start a Dean flame war."

ummmmmmmmmm LOL

[Cheswick2.0]

68. Shooting From the Hip: Kerry Out-Hawks Bush

http://www.lefthook.org/Politics/Frank10172004.html

by Joshua Frank

It may seem inconceivable to some, but John Kerry is indeed out-hawking George W. Bush this election season. No doubt we should have seen it coming as the Democratic National Convention was nothing more than a glorified war parade, where Kerry floated on by and reprehensibly announced that he was “reporting for duty.”

Since this obscure proclamation in Boston last summer, Kerry has been trouncing around the country defending his call for the continued U.S. occupation of Iraq. In the first presidential debate held in Florida, Kerry boasted of his numerous veteran military backers, “I am proud that important military figures are supporting me in this race: former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff John Shalikashvili; just yesterday, General Eisenhower’s son, General John Eisenhower, endorsed me; General Admiral William Crowe; General Tony McBeak, who ran the Air Force war so effectively for his father—all believe I would make a stronger commander in chief.”

William Safire, the conservative columnist for the New York Times on October 4 opined that Kerry is the “newest neo-conservative” and went as far as to say that Kerry is even “more hawkish than President Bush.”

Kerry wants to show voters that he will be tough on terror, I assume, and he is doing so by defending Bush’s pre-emptive doctrine. “The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.”

So much for differentiating himself from the Bush agenda. If anything, Kerry is simply saying he could do the whole thing better, and in fact has said as much. “ will hunt and kill the terrorists wherever they are ... I can do better.” Kerry also says he will accomplish his goal by not backing off “of Fallujah and other places,” which he says sends “the wrong message to terrorists.”

[madfloridian]

71. Clinton's Legacy: Joshua Frank. Ugly article.

http://www.counterpunch.org/yugo.html

Most of this is so embarrassing that I won't print clips. Unless it becomes necessary.

I did give a rational explanation of the cards. This site does NOT like a single Democrat....NONE.

Find one, show me....maybe Kucinich, but I have seen them rip him too.

You guys are trying to blast a good guy out of the water now, and I think we should equal opportunity blast, don't you?

We demand other news media be fair, why not demand it of Josh Frank.

[bushclipper]

75. madfloridian, I have seen you post

articles several years old that are critical of other Democrats that are, for example, Democratic Leadership Council members.

Further, article and posts are put up almost daily on DU that are critical of Bill Clinton and John Kerry. Posting one more now carries no "wow" factor. Further, it doesn't divert attention away from the point of this thread.

A lesson here is the golden rule. I've seen Kerry people and DLC people contend with much abuse here from Dean people. How long did anyone expect it would take before it was sent back your way?

[janx]

80. She has posted pro-Dean stuff.

For a long time.

Stop it.

[bushclipper]

93. I've been on DU for a little over a year

I haven't posted much but have read faithfully.

I know what she has posted. I know what wyldwolf has posted.

[madfloridian]

97. I post pro-Dean stuff. I post anti-DLC stuff. Nothing wrong with that.

I do not go after individuals, but I can if you wish.
If you are accusing me of posting things you think are wrong, find my posts....go ahead. Quit saying things that are not true.

[bushclipper]

99. Just as there is nothing wrong with posting anti-Dean stuff

[madfloridian]

102. There is suspect motive. That is ok, though.

:hi:
Backing off.

[madfloridian]

81. You have seen me post about the DLC, that is it.

I can NOT help it if others post about Kerry or Clinton. Sorry about that.

I post about the purpose of the DLC which was to marginalize its base so it could get easier more comfortable funding.

They said it they did it, and now the GOP owns the WH and the congress.

I am sorry you are trying to blame me for what others do. Quoting Joshua Frank or Counterpunch, who totally despise all Democrats is not going to go unnoticed here.

Dean is one of our best Democrats. He cares about this country, he has good stances on most issues, he is practical, he is sensible. Well by damn we most certainly can not have that in the party, so they did him in.

Now that he is running for chair, they are trying to do it again. I am tired of it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

111. "I've seen Kerry people and DLC people contend with much abuse here......

....and which Bizzaro world would that be in?

[Cheswick2.0]

79. yeah, they like DK.. but

they fail to talk about his right wing authoritarian votes on some weird legislation and they accuse him of selling out by supporting Kerry during the presidential race.

[w4rma]

83. For the most part I think that Joshua's job is one purpose. To divide

Democrats by conning the gullible ones into infighting and to tear down folks who *really* might upset the applecart within the Democratic Party.

He'll promote a Democratic politician unless he misjudges that politician's potential and that politician becomes popular, at which point he'll turn on that politician and start harping about some other guy who he thinks has no chance.

People who appear to be on the left, sometimes aren't actually on the left, they are there to start infights. They are there to keep Dems occupied on themselves instead of our country's problems (specifically the problem we have with too much conglomeration of power).

[Cheswick2.0]

74. oh look, he confirms that Kerry and Clark were the DLC candidates

The DLC's top picks, "war heroes" (the DLC's term, not ours) Wesley Clark and John Kerry, lagged pathetically behind in the primary polls. Both Clark and Kerry had difficulty articulating firm stances on the Iraq war, and Clark's criticisms of the invasion jibed poorly with prior effusive statements supporting not only the war effort, but also several right-wing Republicans throughout the 1980s and 1990s including Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.

[janx]

86. The Dems were so stupid regarding all of this.

We knew it, and we actually made fun of the warring and the lingo.

... Who could be the best warrior to fit into the debate framed by Chimpco?

..................................................................................................... Do you remember?

[zulchzulu]

108. Delusorevisionism again?

"The DLC's top picks, "war heroes" (the DLC's term, not ours) Wesley Clark and John Kerry, lagged pathetically behind in the primary polls."

You mean the primary polls in December when no one was really paying attention? (That's not good.) I guess you think Dean got the nomination or something based on his strong primary polls up to and before January 13th...

Dean dropped out a day after Clark did. It was not only the primary polls at that point, but also a few states into the primaries...remember?

[madfloridian]

110. She was posting what Josh Frank wrote....since we are quoting him today.

37 states did not get to vote for Dean. So if Clark dropped out on Feb. 19, then about that many did not get to vote for him either.

She is showing the irony of using the quotes against Dean, when he attacks all Democrats. Counterpunch does not like Democrats.

[madfloridian]

104. Hey, Counterpunch even goes after Edwards. True? Probably not.

But it does not matter if you don't consider the source. That is the point. Dean did speak of ID cards, he also said they had all our info anyway. He said we needed a way to manage it without losing even more privacy. But, by golly, shame on him. No one pays attention to the finer points.

http://www.counterpunch.org/chuckman07312004.html

"Hope is on the Way"
The Disturbing Words of John Edwards
By JOHN CHUCKMAN

"I heard several lines from John Edwards' convention speech on the radio before I clicked it off. Anymore and I would have vomited."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This site hates Democrats. Why should we have such a long thread on this. This is not true about Edwards, not really. But we could have a thread over 100 posts long easily.

[jswordy]

112. ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS!

Yes folks, just like before the Iowa caucus, you will be hearing a lot of crapola about Dean that in absolutely no way represents the man. You will see twisted shit about his positions, you will hear he is too liberal for the party, you will hear....

Well, I have already debunked on 3 blogs an assortment of crapola spewing from the DLC/DNC fax machines, just as the DFA folks had to spend a lot of time debunking the myths spewed by DNC/DLC/Kerry/Gephardt and DLC darling Clark about Dean pre-Iowa. These people know how to distort.

And they're scared now like they were before. Dean is a threat to their cushy jobs and lifestyle if he gets in as chair.

So please, between now and the chair election, just disregard this bullshit.

Here is Hooward Dean on the issues. Forget the rest of the spin crap.