Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

*Sigh.* Can't someone invent a time machine ...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 02:50 AM
Original message
*Sigh.* Can't someone invent a time machine ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
latteromden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Also, to go back to the time when people colored Democratic states green?
I mean, come on, that's awesome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Look At this switch
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Timebound Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well
If we can get paper voting again, it can happen in 2008.

*sigh*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Amen, Timebound. When we thought votes were
sacred and legitimate. Apparently hasn't happened for awhile. Can you tell I'm a tad annoyed about this as well?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. WHY Did FDR loose New York?
It was his home state, wasn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. He didn't
maybe you're looking at PA?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. You are correct, I got them mixed up...
I was like WTF? for a second.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. Most INTERESTING Electoral map in my opinion, McKinley vs Bryan
http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hist/fi/000000f1.htm

Bryan (the Democrat) won all of the Bush states from 2000 except Indiana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Kentucky, and Ohio.

McKinley (the Republican) won all of the Gore states except Washington.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
illflem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. This one looks more like 2004
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. LMAO Just get rid of Indiana, Iowa, and Ohio...
And we've got our free vs. slave states.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. The Bryan Coalition
Edited on Sat Jan-01-05 01:56 AM by happyslug
Bryan brought into the Democratic Party MOST of the progressive movements in the Country "Free Soil, Free Silver" Groups. He retained the South and thus lost only the anti-union growth states (Basically the Northeast at that time period).

The Country has changed since 1896, first more people lived in RURAL areas than in urban areas-in 1896 (The First Census where more people lived in Urban Areas than Rural Areas is the 1920 Census). Most progressives in the Great Plains were small farmers or workers on those farms (The farms are now larger and mechanized so many of the rural workers moved to the cities after 1896). Byran did not like segregation but was smart enough to avoid the issue (Something FDR also did) thus the South stayed Democratic.

Surprisingly most urban areas during 1896 voted REPUBLICAN. 1896 was a time period where the urban centers were booming and thus voted GOP. Even the Unions voted GOP for the inner city and the Unions preferred the protectionism that the GOP practiced at that time. For your information, from the Civil War to about 1930 every time the GOP controlled Congress the Tariff would be increased. Every time the Democrats were in power the Democrats would cut the Tariff. Now the GOP raised the Tariff so high that every time the Democrats CUT the Tariff the US Government would get INCREASED revenues. Thus between 1865 and 1930 every time the GOP would be in Charge the tariff would e raised and Government expenditures would be CUT. On the other hand every time the Democrats would be in power the Tariff would be cut and Government Expenditures would be INCREASED.

American Industry and Labor liked the GOP during this time period (1896-1930) for the protectionism provided to industry. Rural America liked the Democrats for the increase expenditures spent by the Democrats (Permitting more "Internal Improvements").

The Great Depression changed all of this. Bryan's decision to go with the progressives of his time period meant the Democratic Party would become more and more progressive over the course of the 20th Century. As the Country became more Urban, The GOP controlled Northern Legislature passed laws discriminating against urban areas. These laws became a sore point in most urban areas leading to such urban areas joining the party OPPOSING the party that controlled their state legislature. Thus by 1930 most Urban areas were on their way to becoming Democratic.

Thus the difference between 1896 and 2004 are as follows:

1. Urban areas have more population than rural areas in most northern states, since these state had previously been controlled by GOP Rural dominated Legislature the Urban areas turned to the opposite party (The Democrats) as their representatives.

2. With the US the dominate world trading partner after 1930, the US could no longer afford to protect its industry, the counter-protectionism of other countries hurt the US more than the Protections helped America. Thus the GOP lost control over Labor and thus Industry as the GOP could no longer use protectionism to hold labor and industry to the GOP.

3. The decision of the GOP after 1960 to embrace the Rural South while the Democrats were embracing the inner city blacks (One of the "Costs" the Democrats had to pay to get the urban votes). And I use the term "costs" deliberately, FDR counted on souther segregationist votes to win his four elections. Kennedy counted on those votes. Stevenson (The Democratic Candidate 1952 and 1956) lost his elections to Eisenhower do to Eisenhower getting 1/3 of the Black vote (Previously to FDR and Bryan Democrats were not viewed with favor by Blacks).

My point is the start of today's Democratic coalition is with Bryan. He tried to combine Labor, Urban Progressive, Rural Progressives, liberals and other groups who wanted to improve American Society into something that could get elected. He failed (More to do with the GOP stranglehold on Rural Northern Voters based on who their or their daddy shoot at during the Civil War, labor with the GOP's commitment to high Tariffs, and Blacks based on the fact Republican Lincoln Freed Them), but his basic coalition is what took FDR to the White House 36 years later, as the urban voters outnumbered rural voters AND labor and Blacks coming to see the Democrats as supporting what was good for Labor and Blacks and FDR holding onto the Rural South.

The present GOP stranglehold is based on supporting Rural Southern Whites hatred of blacks, small business people hatred of taxes, willingness to spend money on things that go to GOP supporters (For example star wars and other Military expenditures that do NOT go to enlisted ranks pay), Rural Highway Spending (Eisenhower's baby) and using every slick campaign method to get people to Vote GOP (Which includes Abortion and Gay Rights, two non-issues that the GOP uses over and over again to get people to vote GOP).

Can the GOP keep this up? No. Bryan was attacked in 1896, 1900 and 1908 just like Kerry was attacked in 2004 (Through Kerry was NEVER a the target of a debate as to what type of insanity he was suffering form which WAS done to Bryan for challenging the strength of Corporate America). Wilson and FDR were also attacked by the Media just like Clinton and Kerry. The newspapers have always been pro-GOP and have always attacked Democrats much more than Republicans. It took the Great Depression for most Americans to accept that the GOP had been lying to them about the Democrats (36 years of lies, lies that continued during and after FDR's Presidency).

Since the 1960s the GOP has been taking credit for anything good and blaming the Democrats for everything bad. People started to believe this nonsense in the 1960s (Do to Vietnam) and this belief increased as you had more and more people voting who had no memory of the Great Depression. In the recent election the only age group that voted WAY more for the GOP than the Democrats were those born between 1954 and 1964 (The later 2/3rds of the Baby boom). Every other age group tended to split evenly. This is the age group with the least connection to the Great Depression and not yet looking at their retirement. Thus they think the GOP plan for growth will benefit them. It will not, but the only way they (and others who voted for the GOP) will learn NOT to trust the GOP is another great depression. The GOP is setting the US up for another Great Depression and it discuss me that so much suffering has to be done to get people NOT to believe lies from the GOP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I like Bryan even more now that I know he didn't like segregation
I kinda figured that he was just as racist as everybody else at the time. That's awesome that he was against segregation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I wanted to get a clear statement as to Bryan and Race
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 03:45 AM by happyslug
But I could not find any. Remember he was a Good Democrat, and he needed the South to get elected. Thus, like FDR, Bryan avoided the issue of race. Bryan on the other hand was for the following:

Graduated income tax,
Direct election of senators,
Prohibition of liquor (Yes, it failed but he died in 1924 before people realized how badly it was failing),
Woman suffrage,
Public disclosure of newspaper ownership and the signing of editorials,
Labor laws and reforms including workman's compensation, minimum wage, eight-hour day, improved conditions for seamen and railroad employees, prohibition of injunctions in labor disputes),
Public regulation of political campaign contributions,
Federal Reserve Act,
Federal Trade Commission,
Federal Farm Loan Act,
Government regulations of railroads and telegraph/telephone, safety devices and pure food processing,
Tariff reform,
Control of trusts,
Government control of currency and banking,
The initiative, the referendum,
Establishment of Departments of health and education and labor,
Promotion of public parks,
Defense of rights of minorities,
Anti-imperialism,
Settling of international differences through peaceful arbitration,
Support of education (including Negro education),
Strengthening of Latin American relations (through advocating courses in Spanish and Latin American affairs, scholarships, exchanges of professors, helping to found the University of Miami),
Voting reform,
Influence on the revision of state constitutions,
Reform to make the Constitution more easily amendable (Remember he lived at the time when much of the above when it passed Congress was struck-ed down as unconstitutional by the Courts).

Yes you can say the whole New Deal. As to the Scopes Trial, his dislike of Evolution had less to do with Darwinism but what is now called Social Darwinism:

"Darwinism leads to a denial of God. Nietzsche carried Darwinism to its logical conclusion and it made him the most extreme of anti-Christians. I had read extracts from his writings—enough to acquaint me with his sweeping denial of God and of the Saviour—but not enough to make me familiar with his philosophy.
As the war progressed I became more and more impressed with the conviction that the German propaganda rested upon a materialistic foundation. I secured the writings of Nietzsche and found in them a defense, made in advance, of all the cruelties and atrocities practiced by the militarists of Germany. Nietzsche tried to substitute the worship of the “Superman” for the worship of God. He not only rejected the Creator, but he rejected all moral standards. He praised war and eulogized hatred because it led to war. He denounced sympathy and pity as attributes unworthy of man. He believed that the teachings of Christ made degenerates and, logical to the end, he regarded Democracy as the refuge of weaklings. He saw in man nothing but an animal and in that animal the highest virtue he recognized was “The Will to Power”—a will which should know no let or hindrance, no restraint or limitation.
Nietzsche’s philosophy would convert the world into a ferocious conflict between beasts, each brute trampling ruthlessly on everything in his way. In his book entitled “Joyful Wisdom,” Nietzsche ascribes to Napoleon the very same dream of power—Europe under one sovereign and that sovereign the master of the world—that lured the Kaiser into a sea of blood from which he emerged an exile seeking security under a foreign flag. Nietzsche names Darwin as one of the three great men of his century, but tries to deprive him of credit (?) for the doctrine that bears his name by saying that Hegel made an earlier announcement of it. Nietzsche died hopelessly insane, but his philosophy has wrought the moral ruin of a multitude, if it is not actually responsible for bringing upon the world its greatest war.
His philosophy, if it is worthy the name of philosophy, is the ripened fruit of Darwinism—and a tree is known by its fruit.
In 1900—over twenty years ago—while an International Peace Congress was in session in Paris the following editorial appeared in L’Univers:
“The spirit of peace has fled the earth because evolution has taken possession of it. The plea for peace in past years has been inspired by faith in the divine nature and the divine origin of man; men were then looked upon as children of one Father and war, therefore, was fratricide. But now that men are looked upon as children of apes, what matters it whether they are slaughtered or not?”
I have given you above the words of a French writer published twenty years ago. I have just found in a book recently published by a prominent English writer words along the same line, only more comprehensive. The corroding influence of Darwinism has spread as the doctrine has been increasingly accepted. In the American preface to “The Glass of Fashion” these words are to be found: “Darwinism not only justifies the sensualist at the trough and Fashion at her glass; it justifies Prussianism at the cannon’s mouth and Bolshevism at the prison-door. If Darwinism be true, if Mind is to be driven out of the universe and accident accepted as a sufficient cause for all the majesty and glory of physical nature, then there is no crime or violence, however abominable in its circumstances and however cruel in its execution, which cannot be justified by success, and no triviality, no absurdity of Fashion which deserves a censure: more—there is no act of disinterested love and tenderness, no deed of self-sacrifice and mercy, no aspiration after beauty and excellence, for which a single reason can be adduced in logic.”
http://www.scopestrial.org/inhisimage.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC